Training to Kill (at the arcade)

[nbk2000]

I was at a casino a few days ago with an aquaintence. While they were busy enlarging the casinos pockets, I went to the arcade since the movies they had there all suck.

It's been a long time since I've been to an arcade, probably going on ten years, so I was kinda shocked by the price ($1/play) and the complexity of the games.

But I was really surprised by how some games require you to physically interact with them. I played this game for 5 minutes.

<img src="http://nbk2000.freeyellow.com/Gunfight_Simulator.jpg" alt=" - " />

In it, you're a cop who has to kill every bad guy in sight. All the while, you're ducking behind cars, dodging around corners, and otherwise avoiding getting shot.

The game has some way of seeing your movements, and coordinating it with the action on the screen.

Well, days later, I'm still sore from the workout that damn machine gave me. My legs are burning and my back is stiff as a board.

But, it was also very instructional because it showed me just how strenuous taking cover in a gunfight could be. And it also gives you feed back about your reaction times, accuracy, and other details of interest.

Needless to say, my reaction times to taking cover weren't too good (no practice), but my accuracy was 84%. :) Guess this means I'd be better off blowing them away then hiding from them. :D

Now, this isn't the only such game there. There was also one called "Silent Scope" that has you playing a sniper, complete with a high power scope to look through on your rifle, that puts you through various scenarios like shooting at people from rooftops <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> , helicopters, in stadiums, and others. I did a lot better at this one since I've been getting practice playing a sniper in Americas Army. Head shots a'plenty. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Anyways, anyone who's read Killology knows that these games, while not turning meek kids into raving killers, DO hone the skills needed. It's called "Operant Conditioning". You see a target pop up, you shoot it. The faster and more accurately you can do this, the bigger the reward.

Knowing that video games have a life span on par with a gnat, might not a person of a...certain lifestyle...wish to aqcuire such games for their own use after they become available as surplus at a fraction of their original price?

That use being to supplement actual range practice with constant video simulation to keep up the reflexes and develop the muscle memeory? Range time is a hassle, expensive, and risky if you can't legally own (or use) guns. Simulation would allow you to make maximum use of your limited range time.

<small>[ December 31, 2002, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>

[green beret]

This seems like a very good idea, although I have never seen any of these particular games here in oz. My boss rents amusement machines (games) on the side though so I'll ask him about those games in particular. Like you said it saves going to the range, and here in Australia that is damn near impossible anyway, and even at the range you still cant get the reflexes you get when people actually fire back.

I think I will look into purchasing one, if I can get my hands on one of those mentioned.

It seems that alot of the arcade games that come out in the US rarely make it to us over here.

[Crow]

Even surplus machines run for thousands of dollars and the electricity needed to run the things would be outrageous. But still, it would be better than going out of your way to an expensive range. I have not gone to the arcade in months, and there I only played games like the ones you mentioned, shooting games. Although these did not transmit your movements into the game it was still good practice for accuracy and reflexes. Computer games can help, but they will not help with much since the movements used to move with a keyboard are no way similar to the real world, but I still play those frequently. These video arcades don't seem to get too much attention anymore with all the new computer games which dont cost as much over the long run.

[nbk2000]

They don't have to be plugged in all the time, right? It isn't like you're trying to rack up a high score or something. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Computer games can't compare to the arcade versions. The arcade ones require PHYSICAL movement on the players part. Whereas PC games only require the twitching of thumbs and fingers. Quake never left me with leg cramps and a sore back.

And, considering how the games cost over $10,000 new, even $2,000 used is cheap. And it's WAY cheaper than the simulators that the police use. Their versions, while more realistic, also cost 6 figures.

[Crow]

I propose theft.

[Mr Cool]

Hmmm... it wouldn't be too easy to steal a huge (and HEEEAAAVVVYYYY!!!) arcade game, and not worth getting caught.
I can't wait until the day when they have good VR games. I remember there was a VR place where I live a few years ago, I never went but it shut down after a few months. It was probably crap. But if they were good it would be the ultimate simulator, and it'd be great fun too :) .
What about paintballing and those laser games?

Lol, last time I went to an arcade was to mock the little townie punks who were on those punching games. It's great fun, they hit the thing and show off to their mates that they got score X, then you step in and crush their spirits by getting a score of three times that :D .

[Keyser Soze]

While paintballing is lots of fun, i don't think it would give you the correct idea of a real battle/firefight. The physical aspect is good, but you can dodge paintballs pretty easily and they don't fly near as fast as bullets. The arcade game is also good because it was probably in an urban setting.

[Mr Cool]

You can't dodge a paintball that hits you in the back of the head.

[firebreether]

Paintballing is very good in terms of the exercise and tactics though. Its not the real thing, but neither is VR. Last time i went paintballing, after like 4 hours i could barely stand i was that tired.

[zippoxiv]

Although off topic, paintball could be used as a very effective training tool. It depends on the style of gameplay you choose, tourney (speedball) or "recreational" (thats woods play) Depending on your location there are most likely woods and abandoned buildings/warehouses or any other usefull scenerio's to play in. Athough considered "trespassing" if you know the location is not used, and isolated enough that you would not be expecting company, with your own guns and gear you could get a few interesting games going.

[Crow]

Also paint ball does not allow for the realism of differant types of firearms, explosives, flashbangs, smoke grenades, armor and paintball fights are generally conducted in wooden areas and not urban.

Edit: Spelling

<small>[ January 01, 2003, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: Crow ]</small>

[vir sapit qui pauca loquitur]

Crow, Not that i know the exact rules and regulations in all of america concerning smoke and flash-bangs, but in florida there was a stock of flash-bangs for sale (i'm talking crappy made for paintball 'safe' flash-bangs) and in England, smoke/flash and paintball grenades are available for about 3.50/4 pounds each, depending on exactly what is wanted. Paintball can be a great trainning aid, (besides, who on earth would stake life-and-limb on armour?) but cannot compare to the actual experience of combat.

time crisis 2 is my FAVOURITE, blow-back action (thou not as powerful as real-steel) and a foot pedal (to 'hide') I have heard its about 11k to own one :( (one day <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> )

[nbk2000]

I've attached a raw copy of some of the text of the book "On Killing" by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman.

I've edited out most of the book as being irrelevant to the topic here, that being the psychology process involved in training to kill. It's about 70 pages worth of single spaced text. 104kb compressed .zip

Download it, read it, and contemplate. :)

[probity]

nbk2000, do you have anymore links? I was just searching around and came across bulletproof mind, that video series.. anyhow it sounded interesting and I want to read more in regards to this subject. Thanks...

[nbk2000]

Links to what? I already provided an OCR copy of a book on the subject. What more do you want?

How about YOU providing US with a link to something on the subject (like the "bulletproof mind" videos), and we'll see if you have any sense of the subject, and then maybe we'll provide you with something in return.

We only help those who can help themselves first. :)

[GibboNet]

Time Crisis two is great !! That pedal is weird to get used to, but I love it. When I was on the mainland I spent $20 on credits for that game, I was getting pretty good. Blow back action ? Not here. ( I feel cheated)

I have seen silent scope too, I might play it next time I'm in town.

Actually, I was looking at getting a PS2, I reckon I'll get one of the guns, and some nice shooting games. Not quite realistic, but lots of fun, and for reaction time / reflex shooting action, it should be pretty good, not to mention very cheap.

Since I live in the smallest state in australia, and there's no paintball parks, it's actually illegal to own a paintball gun.... I plan on setting up a park one day, and getting that reversed. I would specialise in realistic training.

If I was making a paintball park, it would definately have an urban area. In fact, I would have every variation I could. I'd also offer combat / tactics training. Then I'd add myself to every game, and whoop their collective asses. Smoke genades, stun grenades, camouflage suits (yowie / ghille) would all be avaliable, legal or not. Especially for the private functions for some friends.

I'm definately going over to the mainland as soon as I have the money, to have a few games of paintball / laser challenge games.

[kinetic]

it would be quite expensive for personal "war games" but...

In the military we use a canadian made ammo called "simmunition." We replace the 5.56 upper recievers on our M4s (M16 carbine) with a 9mm blowback operated one. Simmunition is basically low power 9mm shells with a paint pellet instead in a lead bullet. They are accuate at close range and if you can dodge those, you're pretty amazing. They sting pretty bad when they hit you (will break skin at close range) so it gives you extra incentive not to get hit. ;) It is a real weapon so it malfunctions, runs out of ammo, and ejects shell casing like a real one. However, anyone who owns a 9mm hangun can take advantage of this ammunition. However, this ammo is only useful for urban environments and clearing rooms- especially if you are shooting it out of a hangun.

[nbk2000]

Strange thing about simunitions is that it's seemingly impossible to find anyone who'll sell it to non-cop/goverment people, like regular citizens. You can buy lethal ammo all day long, but you can't buy non-lethal training ammo, wonder why?

Could it be that they don't want people to be able to realistically practice tactics that'd make them on-par with the piggies? Hmmmm....couldn't be that, could it? ;)

[Shiffty_dog_eye]

There is a cammera you can buy for the ps2 for $100au, and it put's your picture onsreen and scences your movemen, kinda like the computer in that tom cruse move with the murder prediction guy's pre-cogs?, and way you get 12 games on the disc when you buyit there kinda cheesy but still a lot of fun, i hope they develope this tech into an operating system for the pc extention on the ps2

it's called eyetoy,

[nbk2000]

Death for Shiffty_dog_eye for the crime of raping the english language. If you can't put together a coherent sentence, there's no future for you here. :p

[mrloud]

I've played paintball quite a bit. Every time I've played against millitary or police types, they have walked into the game thinking they are going to be shit-hot and clean up the opposition. In reality, we kick their arses. It seems training for real combat in no way prepares a person for paintball. It is probably safe to say that the reverse also applies.

Don't get me wrong, paintball and video games have their place in combat training. But don't expect a firefight with the piggies to be just like a big paintball game.

The Australian military and Special Operations Group also use that Simmunition ammo. I've found hundreds of spent rounds, and a few live ones, in the various places my urban exploration activities take me. Just like the USA, they are not available to civillians.

[kinetic]

I think there are a few lessons to be learned from playing paintball the you can apply to a real world situation:

1. Take cover or die
2. "stick and move" don't get pinned down
3. Basic tactics such as flanking and interlocking sectors of fire

Military and police often get there ass kicked in paintball because paintball firefights take place at extremely close ranges where there is no time to organize and execute a "battle drill." Military types train for a more organized attacks which makes them slow. Another reason may be that many police and military forces really aren't "shit-hot" like they think they are...;)

[nbk2000]

It's also likely that the paintballers have had much more practice with their choosen weapons, and are in the field much more often the the military/police guys. Most militaries/P.D's are very tight when it comes to training expenses, so they rarely get to have live fire excercises

That, and its probable that thepaintballers are less adverse to getting shot, hence willing to take bigger risks, then the army guys who'd be dead if they tried the same stunts during a mission.

[static_firefly]

The problem is video games become reptitive. Its not long before you know where each target is and what they will do. But they do give a good work out. Holding up one of them handguns blasting away will soon make your arms as tired as buggery.

[controlphreak]

OK. I know this isn't exactly the best answer but there is always emulation. I prefer MAME32 and you can buy a laser gun to go with it. You can download the dumps of Time Crisis and play it on your computer. And I think Area 51 is emulated too, and they are constantly adding more. Just a suggestion

controlphreak

[zaibatsu]

I was reading today in the Gun Digest book of Combat Handgunnery, vol2 abotu something called "imaging" - basically just imagining your response in different situations/performing different operations. Supposedly this increases your spped at performing these when it actually comes time to do them, without having to ever do it.

I'll try and get a bit of it typed up.

[nbk2000]

I've seen it described as "visualization".

It's sensible that, having previously ran through your mind what you would do in a certain event, that you would become quicker at doing it, even if you've never actually done it.

It's even an RTPB:

"7 P's Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance" or "Prior Planning..." in this case. :)

Having previously thought through an event or action means not having to make up a plan on the spot.

Video games do become repetitive, since you can anticipate where the targets are going to pop up (unlike real life), but it most definitely helps with your reflexes. :D

[john_smith]

Common CO2 operated airguns can be used for training as well, if you don't mind getting hurt a lot. The problem,though, is that everybody I know does... Tried to organize a BB gun shootout lately, got five people together ,but all of them had enough after three rounds... We were wearing heavy jackets, motorcycle helmets and thick scarfs wrapped around the neck 2-3 times, however, one guy took a BB in thigh (from a Grossmam air revolver) and had it removed in ER. I got shot in the hand from an air rifle, and though it didn't penetrate the leather glove it hurt so much i thought there were some bones broken at first. But it seemed pretty realistic after all, more so than paintball...

[Imperial]

Of course, these games don't take into account recoil, which greatly affects accuracy as well as your general handling of a firearm, especially a high powered one like a sniper rifle.
If this was taken into account, these games would be excellent trainers for would-be killers.

I like the computer games and video games simply for the violent graphics, but also the fun of them. That machine which NBK has shown would also be great, but there are none in Australia, as was said before :(.

One possibility is having a gun which has some sort of electric motor inside which provides a large shock (like controller vibration on video game consoles) whenever a shot is fired. Preferably a shock which sends the gun backwards a little.

[vir sapit qui pauca loquitur]

true, the level of recoil simulated in time crisis 2 is no-where like the power of a browning high power (i whine but i'm sure that a 9mm shouldn't kick _that_ much!) and to be the best you need to train with the worst possible guns (i.e. the rifle that kicks like an irate elephant, the pistol that try's to end up lodged in a facial oriface) so that when the time comes for immediate action, your body has become honed to expect and utilise the recoil rather then flinch.

later on i'll bring gas airsoft guns to everyone's attention, a very useful aid :P

[GibboNet]

I think the only real way to train in this way is to buy / manufacture / steal some real military weapons, and then buy or manufacture small paint squib cartridges, that fire a tiny bullet sized paintball.

You're training with real weapons, which suffer real stoppages, and real malfunctions. The projectiles hurt, hence slight realism, and you know when you're hit, and you can't cheat either. Unfortunately, you need numbers to play these sort of war games, as training alone will never suffice. Only real humans can provide the correct mix of unpredictibility and counter tactics.

In this way, team on team, a fairly good training session could be had. Unfortunately, there are a number of reasons why it won't work, most of which I've mentioned or are blatantly obvious.

I'm trying to think of a way to achieve some of the ideas I've mentioned, but I'm not getting very far. I have some fairly realistic weapons here that I made a few years ago, from timber and varios metal offcuts. A full size M14 and SLR (L1A1 aussies, FN FAL Brits). They have no means of firing, but I did manage to incorporate a cap gun body into the handgrip of another, meaning a working trigger system, which, while it only fired toy caps, could be stepped up with a blank firing weapon.

After reading a fair bit of improvised weapons material, mostly from the FTP, I think it would be well within the capabilities of home manufacture, but I need more tools, and equipment. The hardest part would be improvising the ammunition, but it's only really the projectile that needs to be fabricated. A reloading kit would be used to then utilise the projectiles you've constructed.

It's a long shot, but now I have the PS2 on layby, I'm looking at projectors, to make a large, full wall shooting gallery. I also have some Super Nintendo games to put onto PSx, which means a few simple but fun shooting games. I've also got SOCOM, supposedly a very realistic military game... it even comes with a voice recognition headset ! I'm hoping this will help develop tactical strategy, in the form of real time combat assesments.

Just a few more thoughts...

[Jacks Complete]

Arcade simulation, and any simulation, is just that. Little recoil, little noise, and lots of bad vices slipping in, like holding the gun sideways and "Gangster stylee" limp wrists.

What you really want is a way to use your real guns, and see the effects, etc.

Firstly, try field target rifle shooting. FT is done all over the place, using air weapons, and teaches you more about spotting targets, windage, elevation, etc. than you would think if you haven't tried it. As long as air weapons (rifles) are available, you should be able to find somewhere.

Secondly, practical pistol/rifle/shotgun are great fun. Some are very like the Close Quarter Battle sims that the police and army use. Of course, this is a major issue when your guns get banned!

In the event of those two, you are set. If you can't do either, and are prepared to use a bit of ingenuity and money, plus some time working out the bugs, you can do what the UK army bods do.

In essence, these live-fire arcade games are simple. You use a large roll of paper, a projector, your chosen arms (with backstop, etc. as per a normal indoor range) and you either use a manual advance system and pause button, or you can have "shot detection" and a computer.

The projector is set up facing down the range, with the "screen" in front, using the roll of paper. This roll is motorised, so that it can be moved a fraction of an inch round each time. (For clarity, the "roll" of paper is one endless loop, as tall or wide as you need it to be). A suitable video is found, or even something like Quake could be used(!) and fed to the projector. As long as you can pause it without losing the picture it is fine.

Take your positions, and run VT!

The film runs, and then you engage a target. The video now freezes, and the light behind the screen* can be seen shining through your bullet hole. You can then call a hit or a miss, and then the action continues, after the roll has moved a fraction of an inch, so that the hole no longer lines up. You will be able to fire thousands of shots before you become aware of the holes starting to align in the wrong places, and even then you will know which were your "hit" and which aren't, especially if you keep using different films. Then tape over the holes, or replace with more from your roll.

* The only snag is, I cannot for the life of me think of a good way to have the light behind the system. I can't really remember how the army did it, but I think it involved a big motorised mirror and light system that moved between shots. Obviously, this is why they were so big, bulky and expensive. You need the light to shine through from roughly the same angle as the holes, so you can't use a big light on the floor, and putting one behind the target maens it would get shot to shit... Anyone got any ideas?

With a digital projector, I reckon these could even be a commercial goer!

[root]

just a game recommendation to try, it has you shooting it out with some robots and what not but it has some blowback to the gun whenever you fire it (full auto). I believe its called LA 3000, something along those lines, heavy ass guns too wanna talk about a work out...

[GibboNet]

A quick update, I just noticed in a magazine they showed M4 carbines (colt carbines, the M16 variants) which were paintball guns.

They've done a lot of work making paintball weapons fit into the reciever on the M4, so it looks like a perfect replica, when it's actuallly a paintball rifle.

They'd be the shit to have for this training.

[Bert]

When first person shooters appeared, I never thought it was just an accident of timing that it happened just about the time Reagan came in and the powers that be had decided it was time for the US to get over Vietnam.

In other news, did anyone notice this? Paintball Jihad in Virginia (http://www.intellnet.org/news/2003/10/16/20658-1.htm) The participants all quit paintball immediately when 9/11 occured... They were "worried about how their activities might appear". Guess they were right to be worried.

I read the whole zip file. Thanks, NBK2000. I'm going to look for the book now.

[metal dragon]

Green beret,
Silent scope is a very popular game here in Australia. I have found it in nearly all arcades that I have been in. It is but far one of my favourite games. So I am nearly certain in a near by arcade you will have success in finding it.

[ossassin]

Just remember that those video games aren't as realistic as they seem to be. Sniping requires more math than shooting ability. Those little pistols on thos "realistic" tactical shooting games don't have the recoil of a real 9mm or .45 ACP. The government doesn't care if you play them, because they are nothing like real combat. As far as I can tell, the only advantage that games like that, specifically America's Army, give you is that they show you what types of tactics and weapons you could be fighting against someday.

[mr.pyro]

A new thing like Paintball is catching on here in the States, its called Airsoft, youve probably heard of it if you live here. The guns are the same size as real military spec and they have weights to keep the weight on par. They fire from 200 fps to around 600, and are Electric or gas powered. www.airsoft.com

[Mystic Pawn]

On a related, somewhat, note, they always seem to mess up driving at high speeds in a police chase. I was wondering if there is anyway to get the program drivers's ed programs use to train drivers, which could then be used to train to drive fast on city streets.

[Blackhawk]

On the note of realistic training simulators, I am interested in those crappy little 'laser combat' games. I was having a go at one of the old lockon x2 ones, which use a pistol that 'shoots' IR and a headset with a cool flipdown hud over one eye to tell you your health. Of course they are terribly inaccurate, you can basically fire with your sights a good 30degrees off target over 5m and still hit, I then however rammed a 1m long cardboard tube on the end of the gun over the barrel which made the accuracy such that you actually had to aim before firing. This made me think that I could fashion my own weapons out of wood/plastic with realistic reload and motor actuated recoil and them jam the guts of a comercial gun set into them, while of course focusing the IR beam such that it would be decently accurate.

What do you think? It would be better if you could make your wn electronic internals but I am more happy with the idea of using some that I know work (and have a decent range). Also will firing the IR beam into optics that focus visible light (such a scope) will also do the job of focusing the IR and therefore decreasing the hit area?

[Jacks Complete]

I bought a nice toy the other day, a small plastic log that has some four IR sensors in it, and solenoid springers. Two plastic cans and two "broken bottles" came with it, and an over-sized revolver.

When hit, the spring fires the appropriate can into the air. Unusually, it is very hard! The beam is very small, so you need to be accurate, but also, if you sweep the gun, or pull the shot, etc. it refuses to trigger!

Also, for a treat, I got myself a second PS2 lightgun, one with a laser sight on it. for £15, it rocks. Now I can double gun, just like Max Payne! Sadly, the recoil mech has no chance of keeping up with my rate of fire...

[markgollum]

Although lightening fast reflexes would most certainly be useful, it is my opinion that combat requires much more than that. Effectiveness in combat probably also requires things such as patience, weapons proficiency, tactics, and the ability to react with the right level of aggression, etc.
These are some ways I think would be a good way to learn those attributes.

Patience: playing “sniper” and hunting.

Weapons proficiency: practice with real weapons,”dry” firing often, duck hunting.

Tactics: reading about and practicing techniques such as “slicing the pie”, playing computer games like “Ghost Recon”.

Aggression: paintball, and “Ghost Recon”.

I think that those are the main skills needed.
Ghost Recon is the most realistic combat sim I have ever seen, especially on multiplayer.

[hpy2bhre]

I play paintball more than i should and sometimes find myself incorporating the paintball mode of survival into my everyday life. Such as : Looking very intently at everything in a woodline, searching for anything out of place. Or as walking in on situation and already have picked my exit and cover in case all hell breaks loose. And I play big scenerio games with up to 1000 people , and when I go to the mall or a crowded place I find myself having studied the crowd for threats. We play with paint grenads and flash bangs in the trees and it makes for a real " be alert or don't make it " time! Maybe we should all be like this, I think the team work and practical thought pratice of paintball makes it a good practice tool! And after 24 hrs of play you do get sore!

[Mike76251]

This is not about video games but about real life;
Never shoot antbody in the head............this will cause them to bounce around on the floor for up to 10 minutes due to spasms from the brain and they will shit all over you and anything around.
Always go for a heart shot as this is just like a light switch.........when you flick it, they go off.
Forever.

[Zykaz]

Sorry Mike, but shooting someone in the head is instantaneously fatal, as long as the bullet makes contact with the brain. In other words, as long as the bullet goes into the skull, passes through the brain, and either stays there or comes out the other side, the person will fall like a brick and will be dead before they touch the ground. There will be no spasms from the brain. They will also not "...shit all over you and anything around for up to 10 minutes..."; blood will follow out the exit wound as the bullet leaves the skull, along with possibly parts of the brain, and skull. Pretty gruesome.

[newdle]

In australia, brisbane, in capalaba central shopping center arcade, there is this exact game he is talking about, i believe it's Konami's "911 Police" or something. You use a standard gun on a cable, but above and beside the unit in the playing area, there's some sort of light sensor or something to detect where the player is. My guess could be that maybe it's even an array of proximity sensors, so that a 2 dimensional 'outline' of the human playing could be formed.

[xitwound]

You know, you guys could look into geting paintball guns, some of them have a pretty good price for something reasonable, but paintballs can get expensive if you just blast away at everything you think is a person (not to mention get you shot). Though you dont always have to be shooting at people. Though something else to try, is take a treadmill, and line it up directly in front of your TV, and connect your game console and start playing a First Person Shooter while your running. You wont get a work out with dodging and aiming (unless you use a light gun for the aiming) but it will force you to think and shoot fast while playing the game. I did this with Halo for xbox on heroic. Its harder than it seems. At first your fine, but after a while fatigue starts to set in. But make sure the thing is directly in front, because my set up was a little off, and i kept moving too close to the sides of the belt of the treadmill. Be emberassing to explain your broken arm because you ran off the treadmill. But keep in mind, that no virtual training can compare to the real workout of runing,dodging, and getting shot at than the real world can. Leading me back to suggest a game of paintball.

ChR1S

[wrythawk]

I have played a lot of those arcade games.
I own time crissis project titan,and I play the game with a recoil simulating lightgun.And hell the first time I played like 2 hours non-stop,my arm was sore for three days.
but now I am used to it,so maybe its a good training for learnig to hold your gun for a long time.
what I think is curious: why doesn't the paintbullet from a simmunition round crack open when it gets shot out of the barrel?

[ossassin]

Real shooting is a hell of alot different than it is in a video game. I suggest actually shooting your firearm at a shooting range. Once you truly master it, you will be better than 99% of the police officers and military personnel out there.

[Shotgun Pete]

At an arcade around here, the owners were having problems of people ripping the lightguns off the cords, so they affixed an extra chain link to a metal plate on the gun. Not only does this make the ordinary plastic light gun heavier, but it makes the already Time Crisis 2 lightgun weigh a ton, and the metal plate is right on the slide. This gives a heavier kick from a metal slide blowing back than plastic one. To bad the blue side of the game is busted, the calibration of the gun is all fucked up and the blowback is all broken, whatever operates it probably screwed up from the extra weight, but the red side will wear you out from the 5 pound gun blowing back for half an hour. My high score on that one is 86% accuracy, mostly headshots :)

[nbk2000]

A 3D immersion enviroment where you can can walk around inside the virtual world. :)

http://www.virtusphere.net/military.htm

[Big Mac]

Even surplus machines run for thousands of dollars and the electricity needed to run the things would be outrageous. But still, it would be better than going out of your way to an expensive range. I have not gone to the arcade in months, and there I only played games like the ones you mentioned, shooting games. Although these did not transmit your movements into the game it was still good practice for accuracy and reflexes. Computer games can help, but they will not help with much since the movements used to move with a keyboard are no way similar to the real world, but I still play those frequently. These video arcades don't seem to get too much attention anymore with all the new computer games which dont cost as much over the long run.


I don't know, honestly if you just unplugged the game after use it shouldn't be too horrendous on electricity. Besides, one would assume they have to be pretty energy efficient considering that some arcades are dead as Bob Hope quite often than one would tend to think.

In the Army we had a game that was on the SNES console with a near life-size replica of the M-16 rifle that we practiced in the barracks. It was quite fun and improved greatly without us firing a single round. I really want to get ahold of the game and the rifle if I could only find them. The game was quite efficient. Another arcade game to look for is an oldie but goodie called "Police Trainer" it teaches police tactics on shooting. Moving objects, advancing adversaries, discrimination between unarmed civilians and armed criminals, etc. I played it when I was being discharged from the Army at the bus station. After an hour I got pretty damn good at it. Though not at the level of a cop, it was probably enough for me to go waste a decent size group of people if I was some sort of sociopath.

[Jacks Complete]

"Police trainer" is the one NBK started this thread over. It is, to my knowledge, the only arcade game with the motion detection system built in.

Sadly, most of the arcade games coming out now are just all about the rate of fire. I played House of the Dead 4 last week, and after 20 minutes on the first credit, I was rather bored! Just hold down the trigger, and let the Uzi's cut the zombies' heads off, whack the gun to reload, repeat. No tactics, no civilians to avoid, no ammo limits, nothing. Boring.

I also found that whilst playing Point Blank for cash, I was far slower than 'normal' as using a real firearm makes you savour every shot, and PB is a very fast point and shoot. However, it has both no-shoots aplenty, fast targets, and free money!

I do like it when you can win enough to play all the other games. :-)

In other news, the EyeToy for the PS2 is rubbish. The concept is great, but I have yet to see any worthwhile games with it. If you know any, I might buy one. If I could be bothered, I would program something to do what we want, but I haven't got a development system for PS2 so I've not bothered. The other one to get around to is the Fighting Arena, which detects your movement as button presses and directions, with a DDR type mat, and four sensor break beams at left, right and front high and front low. With a light gun as well, it would be great.

I can see a massively cool game with the eyetoy looking back at you to provide a shift in perspective on occassion, and the Arena allowing you to move naturally, whilst using the lightgun for shooting. The only issue then is the lack of weapon recoil, but I'm sure something could be arranged.

For an idea of how the telesniper would work, play BeachHead. It's a VR type game with a movement chair which, went combined with the wide FoV of the screen fools you into thinking you are travelling 360o, and you have a variety of weapons too.

Lastly, if you have a PS2 and a lightgun, get Time Crisis 2. The sub-games you get, target pistol shooting, clay shooting, etc. are worth the small amount of money it will cost you these days! Proper weapons control, perfecting your aim, tracking a moving target, etc. are all there.

[Skean Dhu]

There is a boxing game that has a motion camera, combined with weighted 'gloves' with (I assume) motion sensors in them aswell, it requires you to do everything you would do in a normal boxing match to avoid getting hit. All the while targeting the VR opponent.

[ozboy]

The Austalian army uses "Technology based training",i.e. Computer games.
Here's the link.

http://www.adobe.com/cfusion/showcase/index.cfm?event=casestudydetail&casestudyid=2564&loc=en_us

And paintball is used by SWAT according to this article.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_8_48/ai_87564349

[blehmen]

I know this thread is getting a little old but after spotting, and reading through this thread I thought it might be nice to share something with you all.

Bohemia Interactive Studios, in 2001, created a game called Operation Flashpoint. The game scored well with reviews, but never made it onto the shelves of mainstream gamers for the very reason I'm posting about it here: realism.

Operation Flashpoint is, by far, the most realistic publicly available military simulator ever made. The game was later developed into a training program used by the US Marine Corps and Australian Defense force. This piece of software went by the name of Virtual Battlespace One, or VBS1, which has now made it onto the public market, and of course, torrent sites.

Last month a sequel to Operation Flashpoint was released in the Czech Republic, Armed Assault. The english release is planned for February 2007, but German and Czech downloadable versions are already available along with a community released english patch.

For training in tactics, this game is perfect. The terrain is huge, so map reading, communication, logistics etc are all vital to the success of missions. The number of onscreen units is equally impressive, especially with Armed Assault in which you can control a semingly unlimited number of soldiers - I personally have led 256 men into battle in a self made mission.

The one thing however, that really makes this game, is the community backing it. If you want a scenario simulated, be it a small uprising, a bank robbery or and all out war involving two full armies made up of hundreds, if not thousands of men, you can create it.

With Operation Flashpoint the number of modifications was just unbelievable.

What I'm trying to say is this: Any training scenario you could ever need involving squad/platoon level combat, be it CQB, Combined Arms, or anythign else can be created by the user.
The ease in which you can create new weapons or modify existing ones means you can simulate recoil properly.
The simple and easy to learn scripting language means you can put anything that's not in game into the game.
The easy to use mission editor means you can simulate any scenario you can imagine in minutes, these scenarios can also be randomised with a bit of scripting or just built in functions inside the editor.

For anyone with a bit of patience, Armed Assault (or VBS1/2) is the perfect training simulator for almost any kind of infantry combat, well the best we can hope for in the near future anyway. Of course, it's nothing compared to real experience, but for anyone on a tight budget who wishes to have a good grasp of basic military tactics Armed Assault is a great "game" to have.

Now, I'll stop as I've been rambling for quite a while now. I do hope this post is of some use to the other forum members.

[Skean Dhu]

Owning both Operation Flashpoint: Coldwar crisis, and the expansion pack Resistance, I can confirm the realism of the original games. There is also a website(http://ofp.gamepark.cz/) that has terabytes of addons: maps, units, weapon sets, vehicles, scrpits(HALO drop being a favorite of mine) so if armed assault is anything like its predecessors all of that will soon be available for it.

On the realism, I once had to crawl the rest of a mission after being shot in the leg. And either through the release or users efforts every weapon and vehicle that has been used in combat, and some that haven't can be found, ranging from battle droids, the M41a1 pulse rifle, UFOs, corvettes to nailguns just to name a few.

The original series can be found for under 6 bucks online using froogle (a function of google for those who don't know).

[Gerbil]

I personally have led 256 men into battle in a self made mission.

On AI? Can I ask what your computer specs are? Just that I'm interested in getting this, but it sounds like you'd need something close to a supercomputer...

[blehmen]

For Operation Flashpoint I was running the system below:

1.6ghz Duron,
512mb RAm,
Geforce FX5500

But for Armed Assault I upgraded to the following:
Athlon 64 X2 4200+,
2gb 667Mhz DDR2 RAM,
GeForce 7600GT PCI-E

It's not exactly top of the range, but I keep a very good FPS with most settings on high at 1024x768 (my monitor's maximum resolution, bit of a CRT fanboy :P)

Oh, and yes, it was a group of 256 AI men, but I believe it could quite easily have been human controlled as well, not too sure of the player limit in MP.

[Gerbil]

hmmm...my system's running it at 7fps max, and that's with the lowest possible settings :rolleyes: . The processor's completely overloaded.

Processor: AMD 1.61Ghz (64bit)
RAM: 1GB
Graphics: GeForce FX5500

Not the best system in the world, but I'd have expected something a bit better. It runs perfectly well on HL2, etc. Time for a graphics update, perhaps?

[blehmen]

That would be your graphics card causing the problem. While the FX5xxx series are supposed to have spixel shader 2.0 support, it's not very good to say the least. I had the same problem trying to run Oblivion with my old FX5500.

You're going to need anything above an FX6800, and I would recommend one in the 7xxx series or higher as they're not too expensive and handle modern games well.

Your processor might also need a bit of a boost, overclocking might be able to do the job sufficiently. Perhaps.

[MGCeilidh]

Strange thing about simunitions is that it's seemingly impossible to find anyone who'll sell it to non-cop/goverment people, like regular citizens. You can buy lethal ammo all day long, but you can't buy non-lethal training ammo, wonder why?

A long while ago I read something on Gutterfighting.org about a british army officer pressing primed cartridge casings into soap to make a training round, its been a while and I can't find it now, the only trace I can find is the 12th post in this thread at Glocktalk

http://aritah.com/showthread.php?threadid=337497 (relevant paragraph quoted below for convenience)

I invented it? Nope, the credit goes way beyond the time even the SEALs were invented. In an article by Dennis Martin in Gutterfighting, he writes, "I've heard of one officer who would take primed cartridge cases and press the casemouths into blocks of soap, forming a hard soap "bullet". He would load these into his service Webley. In the garden he would have his servants surround him, armed with a variety of sticks and bludgeons, then at random rush him. Our hero would then respond with well-placed shots to his human targets, giving him practise in reactive accuracy." Hmmmmm. Who is borrowing from whom?

Obviously I would advise anyone wanting to try this to chronograph the round first and use suitable protective gear, taking the precaution of firing a few rounds at said gear to test it might be considered a good plan as well.

One point that should be noted is that while this will work in a revolver because there is no powder charge it is highly unlikely that the round will have enough energy to cycle the action of a semi-automatic.

[Defendu]

A long while ago I read something on Gutterfighting.org about a british army officer pressing primed cartridge casings into soap to make a training round, its been a while and I can't find it now, the only trace I can find is the 12th post in this thread at Glocktalk

http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.gutterfighting.org/Skullduggery.html

[megalomania]

I tried playing Armed Assault (ArmA) last week. I thought it sucked actually. Maybe a bit too realistic for me. I was surprised I died after getting shot once, as one would expect in real life, but not in a game. I actually had no idea what was going on, or what the objectives were. There I was stuck in the middle of some former Russian craphole with many real-time miles to walk and nobody to shoot :( (my targets ran away, as if anyone would really do that when a killer is shooting at them from the bushes. Cowards!).

I was attracted to it by the demo movie. On my computer it seemed a bit choppy, but I should close down some autoloading progs first. Maybe if I had the time to learn the commands and such it would be better, but I have work to do, so that's out. The whole reason I stopped playing multiplayer FPS games is because I don't have the time to get good enough to compete with teenagers who play these games all day, every day. If it weren't for bills I would be a master pilot on Battlefield 2, and a terror in a mecha on Battlefield 2142.

[lwtch32]

I was reading today in the Gun Digest book of Combat Handgunnery, vol2 abotu something called "imaging" - basically just imagining your response in different situations/performing different operations. Supposedly this increases your spped at performing these when it actually comes time to do them, without having to ever do it.

I have heard of this also. I think its called the Mind's Eye shooting course...developed from NLP. There is a section on it Handgun Combatives by Dave Spaulding I believe.

[lwtch32]

RE: Pistol Training?

I agree with what has been said so far and simunitions are the best bet – still require a lot of safety to train with though so I guess the C02 pistol option would have to do. Perhaps if we could “simulate” report and recoil that would be nice too.

On the wax bullets issue: I met a former Rhodesian Soldier in Durban that was working security for one of the major auctioneers (I was hunting for a car at the time). I noticed this guy carrying and we got to talking. He told me about making wax bullets. Basically he would load the shell with the primer and a wax bullet -- said it was good for target practice in the passage of his house (less than 20 m) and for shooting cats! (he hated cats). Also he said the problem with this type of load was that you had to rack the slide for each round in his auto since the primer did not produce enough gasses to blow back the slide to re-seat a round from the mag.

[file]

I play America's Army some. It's not as realistic as I was lead to believe, but it has taught me a few things:

1. Run and gun gets you killed. Better to ambush.
2. People don't look down as much as they look up.
3. Use concealment, hide under things like cars(goes with rule 2). Harder to be seen means harder to get killed.
4. Things that blow up come in handy for accomplishing rule 1.

[Alexires]

lwtch32 - I've heard about imagining. Not in terms of firearm training, but where two sports teams ran a test. One team would do their normal weights training while the other team would spend the time they would have been doing weights imagining themselves doing weights. After weeks, there was no noticeable difference between the muscle mass of the blokes on each team.

Whether this is true, I don't know, but I do know that imagining has helped me with martial arts, and I feel that martial arts and shooting is much the same, so I'd imagine it would help there.

Also, edit your posts, don't double post. Double posting is a no-no.

[MorrisOK]

Realistic Paintball Guns (http://rap4.com/paintball/os/paintball-gunmarker-c-21.html)

Someone mentioned realistic paintball markers a while back, just wanted to point these out to those interested.

Also, the simple act of envisioning a target, raising your rifle and dry firing it in the privacy of your own home will go a long ways towards improving your accuracy and reaction time.

A good method we thought of for improving reaction time is to set a number of paper plates out at a firing range, with different numbers and letters written on them randomly. One person has a stopwatch and calls out numbers at random, and the person shooting has to locate, and hit the paper plate that was called. This can be improved by having the shooter lower his rifle between shots.

As for actual combat training, at this time I think paintball and/or airsoft is the best solution available to civilians. Maybe something better will become available soon, but who knows...