Thermic Cutting Cable

[nbk2000]

During my research into safecracking and its related tools,I ran across this neat idea that's used by SAR and Offshore oil rig divers.

A hollow tube is connected to a high pressure oxygen supply, using a reducer to bring the working pressure down to less than 120PSI. The oxygen tube is surrounded by a flexible braid of steel wire which acts as the fuel/flux for cutting through almost anything via the Thermite reaction.

The outermost layer is an impermeable plastic casing to contain the oxygen and to protect the steel braid from rust and damage.

<img src="http://nbk2000.freeyellow.com/Keri_Coil.gif" alt=" - " />

In use, the oxygen is turned on from a backpack mounted tank, the reaction started with a pyrotechnic igniter, and the cut made by feeding the cable into the cut as it is consumed.

When finished, the oxygen supply is turned off and the reaction stops almost instantly.

The commercial product uses a 20 foot coil that'll supply about 10 minutes burn time.

<img src="http://nbk2000.freeyellow.com/Keri_Coil_Cutting.jpg" alt=" - " />

If you have an oxygen tank, this seems like it'd be butt simple to improvise. I wonder if a catalytic converter fueled with baquacil H2O2 could be built to supply the needed amount of oxygen at the needed pressure.

[Fl4PP4W0k]

What about the H2O liquid \ vapor given off as the H2O2 decomposes?

How would one be able to separate these undesired products 'on the fly'?

That would be the only difficulty IMHO.

Having a cooling system could combat this... condense the water vapor as its emitted.

Would the H2O vapor impact all that much on the reaction of Fe \ O2 ?

[nbk2000]

Screens and dissicants would take care of any water droplets/vapor.

[Agent Blak]

The H20 vapour shouldn't pose to be much of a problem. When Safe Cracking I would be concern about the impurities in my flame.

Wouldn't the Thermite burn a little hot for the contents of the Safe(papper/Au/Ag/Etc). That would be my many concern.

I would imagine it would make one hell of an entry tool.

[nbk2000]

Well, unlike the typical thermite reaction that, once started can't be stopped, this one can be. It's highly controllable.

Like any torch, you'd have to know what's on the other side of the target material being cut, and take steps to protect it. Precious metals would be unaffected, while paper can be protected by injecting fire retardant foam into the target through a small hole (drilled or cut).

The only thing that might be difficult would be a suitable oxygen tank and mount. Though a porta-torch tank is small enough to carry, it's also limited in the amount of oxygen it carries. Likely only 2 minutes or so worth.

[Ctrl_C]

You can be had a backpack oxy-acetylene rig for a few hundred dollars I believe. Try major chain hardware stores like Lowes and Home Depot.

[nbk2000]

From a <a href="http://www.pommec.com/html/products/Cutting%20&%20Welding/Kerie%20cable/Kerie%20Cable.htm" target="_blank">Retail Sales</a> website:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> Just as wood and paper will burn in oxygen if a flame is applied so will steel, in wire wool form. All combustible materials have their kindling or burning points, mild steel (iron) being approximately 870° centigrade.

When iron is made harder and stronger by the inclusion of carbon, chrome etc., it becomes more difficult to burn or oxidise, and iron rich in carbon and other impurities i.e. cast iron has literally to be melted by very high temperatures. (Iron will now be referred to as mild steel).

Mild steel, being a very good fuel and burning at very high temperatures, can be made up into cutting lances by packing a steel tube with thin mild steel rods and when oxygen is fed through the lance tip can be ignited.

The mild steel forming the lance will burn furiously as it consumes itself at temperatures high enough to melt concrete easily. These lances are usually 10 ft. (3 metres) long and are used to melt, as opposed to burn or oxidise difficult materials.

As the cutting of mild steel plate does not require these high temperatures even under water, the flexible lance was developed but using the same principle as the rigid thermic lance.

Instead of the consumable mild steel rods, flexible spiral cable with a hollow core and enclosed in plastic material is used. The consumable metal strands of the cable having a carbon content (high tensile steel wire) therefore burn more slowly and at a lower temperature than mild steel.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">

[Sparky]

Maybe you could use potassium or sodium chlorate as an oxygen source.

It's been a long time since I read "Diary of a Pyro" so I'm hazy on details but oh well. In Diary of a Pyro the author says he used that uses sodium (potassium?) chlorate, a fuel and I think a catalyst to release oxygen. It is lit, then put in a special container (insulated steel box I guess). It smolders away giving off oxygen. It's meant for welding. I believe the author specifically says that it makes much more oxygen than they could practically make from H2O2. I think they only had access to dilute hydrogen peroxide though.

[nbk2000]

Those are called "SolidOx" pellets. They're damn near impossible to find now. :( Unfortunately, they wouldn't be practical because of the volume of oxygen needed by the thermic process.

[Machiavelli]

What exactly are the reasons for using strange devices instead of a simple oxygen tank here?

[nbk2000]

Exactly my point. An oxygen tank is easily obtained at any welding supply shop.

[Flake2m]

Another good thing about this idea is if you are trying to enter a facility underwater you can run this cable straight from your own O₂ tank. This makes it less bulky in the long run, provided you make allowances for the extra oxygen needed.

[zeocrash]

i would imagine that this would not be easy to light under water. als, you would not be able to fuel it from a diving cylinder as these contain nothing more than pressureised air. Nitrox may work a bit as it is lower in nitrogen and higher in oxygen, but i dont think it has enough oxygen.
i was wondering if armoured cable trunking for underground wiring, would be suitable for this, if not, where would i fnd something more suitable

[Zach]

For those of us who are fortunate enough to live on US soil, small oxy/acetalyne setups are available at hardware stores at ACE. Both gasses come in a metal cylender, and are a bit pricy at ace, IIRC.

[PyroTech]

Well if I read your post Flake2m, I'm under the impresion that you're thinking scubadiving is with 100% O2.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> Another good thing about this idea is if you are trying to enter a facility underwater you can run this cable straight from your own O2 tank. This makes it less bulky in the long run, provided you make allowances for the extra oxygen needed. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Well let me make it clear(IF you do not get it), you don't(want that). You would die at a certain depth that isn't deep (IIRC about 5-6 meters but is a long time ago...)
What you could do if you really need to cut something underwater, just have 2 bottles on your back, one with normal air mix one with pure O2, make sure you'll put your regulator on the right tank :rolleyes: .
NOTE: This is not meant as a bitch post, I do not say this because I want flake2m to be wrong.

[McGuyver]

zach, I don't think those little containers of oxygen would be adequate. I have a jewelers welder and the container only lasts something like 10-12 minutes while welding. The thermite would require a much larger volume of oxygen.

Lowes sells a small welding kit which has a normal small tank of oxygen and one with acetylene. The kit comes with everything and is very portable, but I'm sure you could easily obtain just an oxygen tank from a welder supply store or something. I haven't tried this but I've also heard hospitals will rent them to you too

[nbk2000]

I've seen braided steel sheathing available at automotive stores as a protective covering for hoses. I don't know if the steel is of the proper type though.

People keep bringing up Oxy-Acetylene. NO! This is not an acceptable substitute for the purpose to which thermic coil would be used for. For instance, Oxy-A is NOT going to cut through tungsten or titanium. Nor concrete, or even lowly hardplate. Thermic coil will zip right through this stuff like the proverbial hot knife through butter. :)

See the big tank on the guys back? That's enough oxygen (at 3,000PSI) for 20 feet of coil, or 10 minutes burn time.

Now, how much oxygen do you think comes in one of those little low pressure bottles you find in a porta-torch set? Maybe 6 inches worth. :rolleyes:

You'd be lucky to cut through a $4 padlock with that. :p

Speaking of underwater, I've upped a US Navy manual on underwater cutting and welding to the FTP. It has a section describing thermic coil.

[Zach]

If you could steal some of these smaller containers, it could be viable I think. I had no idea it would run out that quick. I know their small, but 10 minutes? sheeeeeeit.

[Edit] nbk, you must've posted seconds before me. also I didnt bother to let the picture load ( time constraints ) and just read this thread quickly.
A huge tank would be a bit cumbersome on the back, so strapped to a dolly instead?

<small>[ January 15, 2003, 09:41 PM: Message edited by: Zach ]</small>

[Anthony]

Those small oxygen bottles suck, they contain about 60gm of O2!

The automotive hose braid if stainless steel, got some 1 1/2 inch stuff in the garage somewhere. IIRC, stainless is mild steel with added chromium, I don't think it has significantly higher carbon content, so it may well be suitable.

[McGuyver]

Yeah I wasn't implying that the acetylene be used with the oxygen. It was just a source for an oxygen tank if someone couldn't find a welder supply store around, or a any other source.

[nbk2000]

Ah, but the tanks that come in the welding kits at Lowes are sold EMPTY. You'd still have to go to a welders supply to get them filled up. :( So you might as well buy them there in the first place.

[Machiavelli]

As for the small oxygen bottles, they can still be useful. One thermic lance manufacturer sells a kit using these to LE/mil. While they only burn for about 30 seconds, that's enough time to remove steel bars from a window, go through a drill-resistant lock or push it right through the most expensive and difficult to replace part on a 20 million dollar piece of machinery.

<small>[ January 16, 2003, 06:43 AM: Message edited by: Machiavelli ]</small>

[angelo]

Is the commercially available set-up expensive or resricted to certain specialist services?

Surely the bought stuff would be set up for the best cutting ability. Sure you could work it out improvising it but it would take time and money. Probably as much as a commercial set-up.

Of course if this stuff is only available to certain companies or to specialist contractors then its that understandable to want to imrovise your own set-up.

Murphy's law is certain to kick in with an improvised set-up when you need it the most. Where as with a comercial set-up its pretty much guaranteed to work.

[A-BOMB]

I have one of those small Oxy-mapp gas welding kits with the 2oz bottle of O2, but I never pay for them I just bring the empty bottle to my local True-value and switch the bottle out for a new one. And then I write "empty" on it so if anyone askes me about why I'm walking out of the store with a bottle, I can tell them I brought it along to see compare it yours to see it you had the same type. I do that to them about once a week :D

[Machiavelli]

In Germany, a normal thermic lance setup will set you back ~1300 Euro, with extra lances sold for 2-10 Euro. As for the cable devices, I haven't seen them over here yet.

[nbk2000]

I've read that ordinary "black" (ungalvanized) steel water pipe will work the same way too. Though it requires an oxy-A torch to get it lit.

There's an old movie called "Thief", with James Caan (SP?), who uses a Thermic lance to cut into a vault. I remember seeing that movie and it made quit an impression on me to see a huge slab of steel being cut out of a vault door. :)

I don't think there's any restrictions on the normal commercial setup, other than the multi-thousand dollar cost. :( But the "tactical" versions that I've seen that are portable backpack-style ARE. :( :mad:

[Ctrl_C]

I have some black steel pipe. It is specifically used for propane. As soon as I get my acetylene refilled, I'll try to make a thermic lance. I suppose I should heat up the end with the torch first to get it hot then pump oxy/acetylene through it?

[Agent Blak]

you can use a tube filled with soemthing similiarto mig wire. and run O2 down the tube. You use a small Cap bank to Start it. How it works:

The Wires are Conected to Either + or -. The other Charge is hooked up to a metal Plate(Small It is just for striking). You turn on your O2 so it is running through thetube with the Wire. You strike the Plate Brings the Metal to Kindling Temp and the O2 Continues the Combustion(oxidizing of the wire). You would have a Valve similiars to that which is on a cutting rig(O2/Fuel). you would bring the Tip of you lance to metal. Allow it to heat up SLightly and let it rip 200PSI of O2.

Another option is to modify an old Bus box(AC Arc Welder to hold these lances(Hollow). once againas soon as you strik wait to Seconds and give a Blast of somewhere around 200LBS or O2. A lot of the cheap Buzz Boxes uses standard 120 AC. All it would require is a Lance and a mod to the handle.

[nbk2000]

I found the patent for the flexible thermic cable.

US #3591758

You want to use ONLY O₂. Acetylene is used as a fuel with the oxygen in an Oxy-A torch. In the thermic lance, the target material and steel pipe/wire serves as the fuel, thus you only need to supply the oxygen to do the cutting.

<small>[ January 16, 2003, 11:53 PM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>

[Boob Raider]

How about if I take a # 10 solid wire and wrap steel wool around it and then with some skill wrap this up with wide clear packing tape or similar stuff and after that pull out the center # 10 wire. This should leave me with a tubular steel sponge with a mildly pressure resistant sleve on it. Since steel wool burns in air .... so theoritically ..... this fuse should burn of even the feed of a small airbrush compressor and really nicelly with the small O2 bottle for small durations.
Comments ?

[SATANIC]

No offence, but anything that you can cut with something that small can probably be snapped in half by hand. It would be nice, just to see the way it works though. You might have to make the casing stronger......

Is this thread about thermic lances, or more specifically about 'flexible cutting hose' ?

If you were using steel wool, then wouldn't there be enough of a gap inbetween the steel wool to let the air through ? Like c'mon, there's more gaps in steel wool than there is steel wool right ? Then you could just jam as much steel wool into the hose or whatever you're using as possible, and off you go.

Like has been said, the hard bit would be the O2 cylinder right ? once that's sorted, pressurised connections etc are needed for the joining, and it could work. My only worry - is steel wool too fine ? IIRC, original thermic lances used steel rod inside steel pipe, so there's a big difference in rod / fine wool.

[Aaron-V2.0]

I recently picked up a welding book that has all these different techniques listed and brought this thread back to my mind. The book is "Modern Welding" published by The Goodheat-Willcox Company, ISBN 1-56637-605-X

None of the cutting techniques use a rubber jacketed steel braided hose though.

<B>Exothermic Cutting</B>
Exothermic cutting is the closest thing to NBK's technique I found. An O2 cylinder w/ regulator has O2 feed into an 3/4"-3/8" OD steel pipe which has 6 smaller steel rods inserted into the end and crimped so they dont fall out. A 12V battery is then hooked up to the setup, the positive to the cutting rod and the negative to a thick copper "Strike Plate". You start with the O2 off and you strike the cutting rod onto the strike plate, when it heats up you feed O2 which oxidizes the steel rods and then allows you to cut with temps around 10,000F.

This technique is also used by divers.

This seems the best for getting into that safe that Aunt Milly lost the key for.

Now, an actual Oxygen Lance is an 8 foot section of 1/2" steel pipe that dumps O2 onto a patch of preheated steel. It's the same general idea of the Exothermic cutting technique but it requires the use of an Oxy/Acetylene torch to heat the steel to oxidizing temps and the lance just feeds O2 to the patch which burns the steel away. On large cuts a torch is required to constantly heat the steel.

So, this could be made pretty simply. O2 Bottle, regulator down to 120PSI and a pistol grip blowgun, the blowgun's 1/8" NPT outlet is fitted with a Quick-Connect airfitting and the cutting sticks with small spring steel "fuel" rods are JB welded into the end of quick-connects so you can hook one up quick and easy. You have a 12V auto battery and have one wire leading to the cutting rod but just strike the rod against the negative electrode to fire it off, just open the blowgun and away you go.

Also, I told my friend's father about this and he mentioned he has a setup like it, I'm going to try to get him to show me it as his shop's so packed it's hard to walk in.

And I'll take photos of the book's pages (Or scans if I get the scanner working) for anyone who cant find the book.

[xyz]

Aaron, Instead of having to heat the steel with an Oxy-Acetylene torch, why not just use an Oxy-Acetylene cutting torch? It is basically similar to a standard welding torch (uses the same cylinders and whatnot) except instead of having one big hole for the flame to come out of, it has 6 smaller ones that surround one big hole that a stream of oxygen comes out of. So, basically it heats the metal up and cuts it away at the same time.

It is used in a very similar way to a normal Oxy-Acetylene welding torch, you light it and adjust the flame as normal, then you heat the metal red hot at the start of the cut before pushing down the oxygen button and moving the torch across the metal. Once you are started, you can cut through a 3/4inch steel plate at about a metre per minute.

[Ammonal]

How portable is a plasma cutter? I have seen 2" thick steel being cut like a blow torch through butter. Cutting rate was approximately 20-25 seconds per metre, and it cuts bloody cleaner than an oxy torch, you dont even to grind it or anything. Anyway just a thought (more likely a half cent contribution to this thread but I believe that plasma cutting should be looked at).

[Aaron-V2.0]

I have a plasma cutter and yet it would be great although there's a few requirements for them. My model is rated for 1/4" and only does 3/16" steel, it requires 110V 20A with a surge around 25A. Most banks dont have 1/4" steel plate on a vault door or a 110V 20A line, the heaviest electrical load would be a bank of computers. I imagine the larger models would require 220V which obviously you wont find that kind of recepticle in a bank.

Then there's cost, my model was $500, next size up being $2000 for 1/2" capabilities. But I imagine it would be in line with the RTPB of invest 10% of the predicted take, it'd be well worth it then. But then you still have the electrical supply problem.

I believe an Oxy/Acetylene cutting torch would work fine coupled with a fire extinguisher to put out the fires resulting from it's use.

That's another thing to deal with, all of these cutting techniques create smoke (And lots of it!) and soon trip the fire alarm sending many firemen and likely police to the bank, basically another line of defense for the bank. The best bet would probably be a length of large diameter of dryer type tube with a high speed fan to work as an exhaust hood. The business end of the tube/exhuast would have to be concealed otherwise someone might wonder what a hose is doing sticking out of a bank's doors...

[nbk2000]

There are plasma torches can cut up to a foot of steel...if you've got $20K to buy it. :eek:

For these kind of cutters, unless you're breaking into an industrial plant, you're going to have to bring your own powersupply in the form of a generator because there's not going to be any 220/440V 3-phase outlets handily available to plug it into.

Next, you'll need the smoke removal hoods. These can take on the form of nomex tarps attached over the cutting area, with powerful fans sucking the smoke away from the work area.

This works for keeping the smoke from setting off the fire alarm in the target, but where do you get rid of the smoke? If you simply blow it outside, isn's someone going to see or smell it? Very likely. So, down the sewer it goes, with a nice water mist added to it to wash it out of the air and down the drain. :)

Exothermic lances are nice
plasma too
but not CO2!

Lasers are for precision
Torches, dissection
Crims don't have time for indecision!

Shame on you
For making NBK
write cutting torch hiaku!

:D

(And I know god-damn well the above doesn't follow hiaku structure! :p)

Lasers suck at energy conversion. You put in 1K watts and get less than 1 watt out as laser energy. Don't forget the loss of energy coupling it into the target. Plasma is much more efficient. And exo-torches are KISS compliant, being nothing more than an oxygen tank attached to a steel tube.

And, if one was going to go into a bank, fuck the front door! That's the best protected part of the whole vault! Go through the floor. ;)

Yes, digging tunnels is a bitch, but that's what they've got machines for. Micro-tunnel borers are used by city utilities for boring pipeholes for sewers and such.

A borer for 3' tunnels would cost about $40K, but think about the utility of a machine that lets you dig a yard diameter hole at a rate of a yard per hour (depending on soil type), and shored up by concrete pipe pushed in by hydralic rams.

How long would it take you do dig a tunnel a few hundred yards from the basement of an unused building to the underside of a bank vault? A couple weeks? If the vault is one of the large ones like the main banks in NYC (Chase, Occidential, etc), you'd easily come up with many millions.

Neutralizing the alarms is a different proposition.

However, if the vault was sealed shut from the inside, by tack welding the door shut, and your tunnel is coming from much further away than they would expect....what can they do about the alarm? They'll have to break into the vault themselves which, since the door is welded shut, means cutting a man sized hole in it. That'd take them hours.

How many hours would it take you to haul out all the cash and such? A lot fewer than it'd take them to get in. :)

[streety]

OK, this is coming for the movies now so it is probably complete rubbish but won't they have seismic sensors and such? Detect your tunneling before you get anywhere near?

[vulture]

If you're using a thermic lance, vibrations will be nearly nil. One would think these sensors do not have any temperature sensors, as this is rather unconventional and costly. Every security system has it's Achilles heel.

[streety]

I didn't mean with the thermic lance but with the tunneling under the vault that nbk suggested. I agree that the thermic lance itself wouldn't create sufficient vibrations to set of any seismic sensors.

[James]

I was watching Mail Call on the History channel a couple of days ago when I ran across a reference to Petrogen (www.petrogen.com) cutting torches. Petrogen cutting torches are (appearently) used by military firefighters in traing at least to cut thicker metal faster then an acetylene torch could. I hit google for for more information. I only found the vendors spiel. It looks interesting though runs on ordinary gasoline, (supposedly) no carbon monoxide is produced. A couple of people could cart the (full size) kit around and it cuts something like 10" steel at 7"/minute (http://www.petrogen.com/performance.html).

[the flash]

Watch the movie "Thief" starring James Caan (sp?). In the movie they use some thermic lances to open a safe.

[the flash]

Watch the movie "Thief" starring James Caan (sp?). In the movie they use some thermic lances to open a safe.

[the flash]

Watch the movie "Thief" starring James Caan (sp?). In the movie they use some thermic lances to open a safe.