zaibatsu
October 13th, 2002, 08:59 AM
The Real
Frequent Poster
Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 26, 2001 06:36 PM
This weekends outing will consist of sensitizing AN with smokeless. The container is 8oz size cylindrical, maybe 2" wide and 3.5" tall. I plan on detonating with AP, any suggestions as to how much AP should be used? Cap body will be aluminum, 3/8" diameter, length variable, non electric.
Will post results.
Dr. Kollossos
A new voice
Posts: 8
From:
Registered: OCT 2000
posted January 27, 2001 06:40 AM
mmmm, i don't now how much centimeters an oz is or an inch, but try to make about 50gr of AP, thats enough.
P.S. Why do anyone is talking about the high costs of AP. In Germany two pounds of AP will cost you about 5-10$ or 20german marks
Rhadon
Frequent Poster
Posts: 95
From: Germany
Registered: OCT 2000
posted January 27, 2001 12:45 PM
" is standing for inch. 1 inch are 2.54 cm. By the way, what do your chemicals cost? My H2O2 costs 15 DM per litre (7 US$), the acetone I got for 6 DM (2.80 US$) per litre and one litre of HCl costed 8 DM (3.75 US$).
SafetyLast
Frequent Poster
Posts: 232
From: the cretaceous period
Registered: OCT 2000
posted January 27, 2001 03:17 PM
In the US you can buy 1 qt. 30% H2O2 for $15,
1qt. of pure Acetone for $3, and 1 gallon (3.75qt.) of 32% HCl for $5.
Thats about an average of about $7-8 a pound
I've never heard of sensitizing AN with smokeless however so I don't know if it will work.
try adding some 400 mesh or finer Aluminum powder.
ST
Frequent Poster
Posts: 100
From: 000
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 28, 2001 10:28 AM
not that i know for sure, but i dont think youll get an intimate enough mix using smokeless power, as its impossible to grind up fine enough (unless you know something i dont).
An intimate mix is a 'must have' with ammonium nitrate. Perhaps make an AN putty as like AP putty??
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 606
From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 28, 2001 01:11 PM
i think what he means when he says he is going to desenstize AN with SP is that he is going to make sure that the NG content in the SP detonates so as to HELP set of the AN. it is much easier to detonate SP then it is AN, and we all know NG will do a much better job detonating AN than AP will. (wow that was confusing.)
------------------
...Æ
The Real
Frequent Poster
Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 29, 2001 01:40 AM
Ok first off, I changed the method in how I made my AP and got a huge, difference in yield. What I changed was that I switched to sulfuric and used 100mL of it in 200mL of acetone and 1000mL of 3% Hydrogen peroxide.
I also made two batches, in one I added the acid slowly, the other I just dumped it in. In 2hrs each produced about 175g of AP, my biggest yield yet. I don't know really how to distinguish from the trimer or dimer, but neither batches seemed any less sensitive than anything I've made before. Both were cooled after adding the acid to 36°F.
So I made two caps, one contained 50g of AP the other 20g of AP and 40g of flash powder, both compressed by hand. I used each one in a 1:1 (weight) mixture of AN and SP. The first was a tin container, the other a 1.25" IDx4" PVC nipple. In both cases the cap just blew apart the containers and threw SP and AN all over, not even a partial detonation
The caps did go off with a nice crack, but nothing detonated. I also made a charge from a 1" ODx6" Nipple and placed in a 3gallon steel can, it did a decent amount of damage to the can.
So I'm wondering a few things about the caps I made. Is 50g enough? I packed the AP enough so that it seemed as if no (or very little) air was present in the powder, but I'm sure that tapping the cap would have produced powder again. Is that too little force to tap the stuff? I obviously don't want the stuff going off in my hands.
Just to get a feel on how sensitive this stuff was I sandwhiched 2g between two pennies an rolled them in tape. I first just tossed the straight up, nothing happened. I then spiked it at the ground and it went off with the sound of a .22lr standard velocity round.
Also if AP is detonated with an AP cap will it yield a more powerful explosion than just detonation under confinement touched off with a fuse?
MacCleod
Frequent Poster
Posts: 215
From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 30, 2001 01:29 AM
Hi,The Real.Sorry your outing was a disappointment!.I've got a couple questions.Was the AN/SP mix confined in it's containers,or open?.If you're in a humid area, your AN might have been affected by moisture it absorbed.I've never tried detonating this mix,but I believe the book I read about it in suggested to confine it in PVC pipe with end caps.Also,were your det.'s open or sealed(do you glue your fuse/igniter in,or just crimp the end)?.If you (carefully!)compress the AP with an improvised press(or a dowel,mallet,which is waaay more dangerous!) it will have more power(especially if you're using open-ended det.'s)than just tapping;you'd be surprised at how much more AP you can squeeze into a cap this way.If you have lots of AP,you could try adding some of it directly into the mix(maybe a 1/1/1 ratio?)and shoot it with a hefty detonator(?).
------------------
"That which does not kill us,makes us stronger"
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: NOV 2000
posted January 30, 2001 02:14 AM
hmm.. well, lets see here..Give this a try. Not sure if it will work though.
Dry an in over for 3 hours in prill form. wash with denatured ethyl. Quickly Gring up the an into fine powder. Quickly add some SP. Less than last time. use like 1/4'th sp. Add about 20 grams of atomized alluminium powder for every 400 grams of sp/AN mix. Pack the an mix in a 6 inch long 1 1/2 diameter abs pipe with a end cap glued on tighly. pack in half the mix, than add about 2 inches of pure smoke less powder, then insert a detonater with 50 grams (!!!!!) of ap tightly packed in a copper pipe sealed with epoxy putty in the center of the smokeless powder. Then pack the rest of the AN mix in. U might wanna put a layer of saran wrap or a paper disk inbetween the smokeless powder layer. U might wann have a small copper tube coming out the side of the abs pipe where the sp is with the fuse inside the pipe. We wouldnt was the smokeless powder to just deflagerate right? The smokeless powder should detonate and act as a nice booster. Secure the end cap on the pipe with no glue. We dont want anymore moisture to get into the an. Now bury the pipe under like 2 ft. The earth will add to the confinement of the explosive. If this doesnt work, .....then, well...just move on. Its not meant to happen
------------------
Explosives Archive
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: NOV 2000
posted January 30, 2001 02:34 AM
Also, a way you could press the ap in the container in to take the copper pipe, exoxy one end shut. Fill it with ap, and tamp it with a dowel lightly. As it gets fuller and fuller just keep tamping it in there. Leaving a few cm's clearance at the top. Now, Take some rope, and tie a heavy rock, a lead weight, a lifting weaght, etc to the rope. Then put the rope over a branch on a tree so you can slide the weight up and down freely..
Then dig a little hole directly under the place the weight is, and place small piece or flat, scrap lumber in there. then, put the pipe in the ground, ontop of the piece of flat lumber in the hole and fill the hole with sand or dirt and pack it firmly...then place a appropriate sized dowl in the pipe and hide behind a tree as you slowly lower the weight onto the dowel which compresses the Ap without you beeing in the line of fire. Or line or schrapnel i guess your could say. Just be a few meters back from the pipe and for god sake dont look at it while pressing!
------------------
Explosives Archive
[This message has been edited by ALENGOSVIG1 (edited January 30, 2001).]
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: NOV 2000
posted January 30, 2001 02:51 AM
Scrap My old idea. Here is a chapter i scanned from new and improved c-4 by ragnar benson. Maccleod Photocopied it for me and i scanned it so the quality is slightly diminished. Althought, its still great information
<Zaibatsu - Ragnor Bensons file is now on the FTP - Don't ask for details of the FTP or you will get HED>
Posts: 766
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: NOV 2000
posted January 30, 2001 03:25 AM
Hope thats not too many pics, Mods feel free to delete if you want. Im just trying to help out though. I hope i dont get HED for this
------------------
Explosives Archive
Mick
Frequent Poster
Posts: 229
From:
Registered: OCT 2000
posted January 30, 2001 10:46 AM
pictures = goooood
personaly, i think showing pictures of explosives is good.
it gets rid of all the "hey, what shoud my XXXXX look like?" questions
The Real
Frequent Poster
Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 30, 2001 08:34 PM
Cool.
Can AN be sensitized with AP? A person I chat with that is in the Army, MOS is EOD, suggested putting AN in the bottom of the cap and use a thinner tube for a cap.
The sp I've used is green dot, what get's me is that I've detonated it before, but never with AP. AP is by far easier to make than getting lead styphnate out of primers.
Has anyone hear ever had AP go off while compressing a cap? I compressed mine by hand, maybe 1/8th my strength into it, very nervously.
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 606
From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 30, 2001 10:19 PM
i have never compressed AP, yet i have never tried to detonate AN with it. i just use mine for crackers, and unpressed, confined AP is all i need. Just don't lose a hand man. that would suck balls. i would rig up a vice that you can compress and uncompress from a distance/behind a shield. like through a small motor and remote control. any other way is better (in my opinion) than by hand. don't tamp either, one smooth controlled press is what is required. tamping will get you killed.
------------------
...Æ
Frequent Poster
Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 26, 2001 06:36 PM
This weekends outing will consist of sensitizing AN with smokeless. The container is 8oz size cylindrical, maybe 2" wide and 3.5" tall. I plan on detonating with AP, any suggestions as to how much AP should be used? Cap body will be aluminum, 3/8" diameter, length variable, non electric.
Will post results.
Dr. Kollossos
A new voice
Posts: 8
From:
Registered: OCT 2000
posted January 27, 2001 06:40 AM
mmmm, i don't now how much centimeters an oz is or an inch, but try to make about 50gr of AP, thats enough.
P.S. Why do anyone is talking about the high costs of AP. In Germany two pounds of AP will cost you about 5-10$ or 20german marks
Rhadon
Frequent Poster
Posts: 95
From: Germany
Registered: OCT 2000
posted January 27, 2001 12:45 PM
" is standing for inch. 1 inch are 2.54 cm. By the way, what do your chemicals cost? My H2O2 costs 15 DM per litre (7 US$), the acetone I got for 6 DM (2.80 US$) per litre and one litre of HCl costed 8 DM (3.75 US$).
SafetyLast
Frequent Poster
Posts: 232
From: the cretaceous period
Registered: OCT 2000
posted January 27, 2001 03:17 PM
In the US you can buy 1 qt. 30% H2O2 for $15,
1qt. of pure Acetone for $3, and 1 gallon (3.75qt.) of 32% HCl for $5.
Thats about an average of about $7-8 a pound
I've never heard of sensitizing AN with smokeless however so I don't know if it will work.
try adding some 400 mesh or finer Aluminum powder.
ST
Frequent Poster
Posts: 100
From: 000
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 28, 2001 10:28 AM
not that i know for sure, but i dont think youll get an intimate enough mix using smokeless power, as its impossible to grind up fine enough (unless you know something i dont).
An intimate mix is a 'must have' with ammonium nitrate. Perhaps make an AN putty as like AP putty??
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 606
From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 28, 2001 01:11 PM
i think what he means when he says he is going to desenstize AN with SP is that he is going to make sure that the NG content in the SP detonates so as to HELP set of the AN. it is much easier to detonate SP then it is AN, and we all know NG will do a much better job detonating AN than AP will. (wow that was confusing.)
------------------
...Æ
The Real
Frequent Poster
Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 29, 2001 01:40 AM
Ok first off, I changed the method in how I made my AP and got a huge, difference in yield. What I changed was that I switched to sulfuric and used 100mL of it in 200mL of acetone and 1000mL of 3% Hydrogen peroxide.
I also made two batches, in one I added the acid slowly, the other I just dumped it in. In 2hrs each produced about 175g of AP, my biggest yield yet. I don't know really how to distinguish from the trimer or dimer, but neither batches seemed any less sensitive than anything I've made before. Both were cooled after adding the acid to 36°F.
So I made two caps, one contained 50g of AP the other 20g of AP and 40g of flash powder, both compressed by hand. I used each one in a 1:1 (weight) mixture of AN and SP. The first was a tin container, the other a 1.25" IDx4" PVC nipple. In both cases the cap just blew apart the containers and threw SP and AN all over, not even a partial detonation
The caps did go off with a nice crack, but nothing detonated. I also made a charge from a 1" ODx6" Nipple and placed in a 3gallon steel can, it did a decent amount of damage to the can.
So I'm wondering a few things about the caps I made. Is 50g enough? I packed the AP enough so that it seemed as if no (or very little) air was present in the powder, but I'm sure that tapping the cap would have produced powder again. Is that too little force to tap the stuff? I obviously don't want the stuff going off in my hands.
Just to get a feel on how sensitive this stuff was I sandwhiched 2g between two pennies an rolled them in tape. I first just tossed the straight up, nothing happened. I then spiked it at the ground and it went off with the sound of a .22lr standard velocity round.
Also if AP is detonated with an AP cap will it yield a more powerful explosion than just detonation under confinement touched off with a fuse?
MacCleod
Frequent Poster
Posts: 215
From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 30, 2001 01:29 AM
Hi,The Real.Sorry your outing was a disappointment!.I've got a couple questions.Was the AN/SP mix confined in it's containers,or open?.If you're in a humid area, your AN might have been affected by moisture it absorbed.I've never tried detonating this mix,but I believe the book I read about it in suggested to confine it in PVC pipe with end caps.Also,were your det.'s open or sealed(do you glue your fuse/igniter in,or just crimp the end)?.If you (carefully!)compress the AP with an improvised press(or a dowel,mallet,which is waaay more dangerous!) it will have more power(especially if you're using open-ended det.'s)than just tapping;you'd be surprised at how much more AP you can squeeze into a cap this way.If you have lots of AP,you could try adding some of it directly into the mix(maybe a 1/1/1 ratio?)and shoot it with a hefty detonator(?).
------------------
"That which does not kill us,makes us stronger"
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: NOV 2000
posted January 30, 2001 02:14 AM
hmm.. well, lets see here..Give this a try. Not sure if it will work though.
Dry an in over for 3 hours in prill form. wash with denatured ethyl. Quickly Gring up the an into fine powder. Quickly add some SP. Less than last time. use like 1/4'th sp. Add about 20 grams of atomized alluminium powder for every 400 grams of sp/AN mix. Pack the an mix in a 6 inch long 1 1/2 diameter abs pipe with a end cap glued on tighly. pack in half the mix, than add about 2 inches of pure smoke less powder, then insert a detonater with 50 grams (!!!!!) of ap tightly packed in a copper pipe sealed with epoxy putty in the center of the smokeless powder. Then pack the rest of the AN mix in. U might wanna put a layer of saran wrap or a paper disk inbetween the smokeless powder layer. U might wann have a small copper tube coming out the side of the abs pipe where the sp is with the fuse inside the pipe. We wouldnt was the smokeless powder to just deflagerate right? The smokeless powder should detonate and act as a nice booster. Secure the end cap on the pipe with no glue. We dont want anymore moisture to get into the an. Now bury the pipe under like 2 ft. The earth will add to the confinement of the explosive. If this doesnt work, .....then, well...just move on. Its not meant to happen
------------------
Explosives Archive
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: NOV 2000
posted January 30, 2001 02:34 AM
Also, a way you could press the ap in the container in to take the copper pipe, exoxy one end shut. Fill it with ap, and tamp it with a dowel lightly. As it gets fuller and fuller just keep tamping it in there. Leaving a few cm's clearance at the top. Now, Take some rope, and tie a heavy rock, a lead weight, a lifting weaght, etc to the rope. Then put the rope over a branch on a tree so you can slide the weight up and down freely..
Then dig a little hole directly under the place the weight is, and place small piece or flat, scrap lumber in there. then, put the pipe in the ground, ontop of the piece of flat lumber in the hole and fill the hole with sand or dirt and pack it firmly...then place a appropriate sized dowl in the pipe and hide behind a tree as you slowly lower the weight onto the dowel which compresses the Ap without you beeing in the line of fire. Or line or schrapnel i guess your could say. Just be a few meters back from the pipe and for god sake dont look at it while pressing!
------------------
Explosives Archive
[This message has been edited by ALENGOSVIG1 (edited January 30, 2001).]
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: NOV 2000
posted January 30, 2001 02:51 AM
Scrap My old idea. Here is a chapter i scanned from new and improved c-4 by ragnar benson. Maccleod Photocopied it for me and i scanned it so the quality is slightly diminished. Althought, its still great information
<Zaibatsu - Ragnor Bensons file is now on the FTP - Don't ask for details of the FTP or you will get HED>
Posts: 766
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: NOV 2000
posted January 30, 2001 03:25 AM
Hope thats not too many pics, Mods feel free to delete if you want. Im just trying to help out though. I hope i dont get HED for this
------------------
Explosives Archive
Mick
Frequent Poster
Posts: 229
From:
Registered: OCT 2000
posted January 30, 2001 10:46 AM
pictures = goooood
personaly, i think showing pictures of explosives is good.
it gets rid of all the "hey, what shoud my XXXXX look like?" questions
The Real
Frequent Poster
Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 30, 2001 08:34 PM
Cool.
Can AN be sensitized with AP? A person I chat with that is in the Army, MOS is EOD, suggested putting AN in the bottom of the cap and use a thinner tube for a cap.
The sp I've used is green dot, what get's me is that I've detonated it before, but never with AP. AP is by far easier to make than getting lead styphnate out of primers.
Has anyone hear ever had AP go off while compressing a cap? I compressed mine by hand, maybe 1/8th my strength into it, very nervously.
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 606
From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 30, 2001 10:19 PM
i have never compressed AP, yet i have never tried to detonate AN with it. i just use mine for crackers, and unpressed, confined AP is all i need. Just don't lose a hand man. that would suck balls. i would rig up a vice that you can compress and uncompress from a distance/behind a shield. like through a small motor and remote control. any other way is better (in my opinion) than by hand. don't tamp either, one smooth controlled press is what is required. tamping will get you killed.
------------------
...Æ