Self-Destructing Safe with credit to NBK2000 - Archive file

[zaibatsu]

Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 765
From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 28, 2001 05:24 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I had a dream in which I had been Inspired to build a self-destructing safe; 2'1/2 X 1'1/2 X 1'1/2; The 3/8" Bottom, 1/2" walls, 1/2" Lid.
I figure I could use Mercury Switch; to measure a large in crease in heat(Cutting touch, etc.). A magentic sensor in the bottom if it is lifted off where it sits(attempt to take it back to the lab.) A Light Sensor(Photo Resisto of some kind.); to detect if they drill into it for a small cammera.
one thing I was unsure of in my dream was would the Metal be thick enough to shield it from X-Ray or and other type of radiation or would it be necessary to shield it with Lead(Pb) on the inside.
The self destruction method I conclueded in my dream would work the best would be Thermite. Thermite(3 X 1lbs to be initiated all at the same time) would inciderate most things(Papers, Cd's, Discs, Harddrives.) to be kept in the safe.
All the sensors would be deactivated upon openig of the safe there for you would be able to move chage the batteries etc. once you had opened the safe.

Question? Comments? Concerns?
I lok forward to continuing this dream

------------------
A wise man once said:
"...I Am Not Much of a Dancer But,
Just Wait Till The Fucking Begins"

Agent Blak-------OUT!!

HMTD Factory
Frequent Poster
Posts: 214
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted March 01, 2001 03:59 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
An earthquake happened today in Seattle, you might want to take that into consideration.

Also you will need to be able to open it.
Then you have the identification/password electronics, which become the weakest spot.

Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 01, 2001 11:59 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't you want a thermistor to detect heating? AFAIK mecury switches are only used to detect motion.

How sensitive would this heat sensor be? In the course of a year the environmental temperature could easily go from
-10*C to 35*C+ possibly colder if you live in like Canada. Would cutting raise the internal temperature more than 50*C? Surely they would risk damaging the contents if it did?

Personally I think they'd go they'd open it via the lock, it's the weakest link but then I'm no safe cracker.

Maybe you could booby trap the door? So when you open the door the ignition circuit is completed unless it is dissabled by say a reed switch activated by sticking a magnet to the specific area on the outside of the safe?

Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 765
From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 01, 2001 12:03 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No..No..No,
I am not going to use a electronics(for the lock); it is just one more thing for the cops to try and fuck with.
Where I live there are no Eathquakes. You could always use a Ball switch, then bolt it down.

------------------
A wise man once said:
"...I Am Not Much of a Dancer But,
Just Wait Till The Fucking Begins"

Agent Blak-------OUT!!

HMTD Factory
Frequent Poster
Posts: 214
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted March 01, 2001 12:50 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bolt it down...from inside the safe?

blackadder
Frequent Poster
Posts: 313
From: London
Registered: DEC 2000
posted March 01, 2001 04:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I guess you could make a bomb that would detonate when the safe door was opened more than 3cm away from the safe itself. Of course when you opened it, you would only open the safe door to 2cm, and then somehow disable the bomb. (you would have sorted that out for yourself beforehand).

You could make the bomb so that it detonated at high temperatures, too.

I saw something in that movie jennifer lopez starred in, where this guy set his safe up so that a grenade's pin was connecting the door to the walls of the safe. When the door was opened, the pin would come out and the grenade would blow up. The guy who owned the safe would open the door a TINY bit, and carefully remove the pin from the wall, without taking it out the grenade.

Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 765
From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 02, 2001 02:34 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bolt it down on the outside. so they appear to have access to it. then when they un-bolt it and lift it of the magnet it inciderates the contents.
Anthony: If I took the trouble to make a self-destructing safe I would keep it in side. That is why I would have it set to self-destruct. If something was burried in a park or the like; I would not have it elaberately boobytraped(Just a simple handgrenade setup with no deley in an ammo box).

------------------
A wise man once said:
"...I Am Not Much of a Dancer But,
Just Wait Till The Fucking Begins"

Agent Blak-------OUT!!

Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2304
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 02, 2001 04:10 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Whether the lock is electronic or mechanical it would probably be the easiest way to get the safe open.

It's a good idea though.

nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1091
From: Guess
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 03, 2001 01:06 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've scanned in my drawings from when I was originally developing the RTPB and thinking about the SD safe.

The bolts that attach the safe componets are part of the electrical circuit in the alarm. If bolt is completly cut the circuit is broken and the SD goes off.

The safe is protectected by a monolithic cast reinforced concrete shell tha protects the sides and top of the safe. The shell prevents removal by prying or yanking. It also delays penetration and requires the use of heavy power tools. Only the front is exposed.

Lost foam casting is used for an exact fit and to cast in channels for the shield. After the shield is inserted it is bolted in and the channel filled in with concrete.

Before the shell is cast though, wire loops are run through the rebar. If the concrete is broken, the circuit is broken and the SD activated.

If the safe itself is drilled or torched, either the wire grid will be broken or the safe wall and inner conductor will be connected through the drill bit.

When the safe door is unlocked, an inner grate and chain prevents the contents from being snatched out before the SD can activate, in case the safe lock is compromised.

When the safe door is opened, a delay timer (5 seconds) starts and the safe door only opens only a few inchs to allow key insertion. If the key is not inserted within 5 seconds, the SD burns everything to ash and slag.

An opening is cut in the bottom of the safe with a hole in the floor where the thermite charge is placed in a crucible. The igniter is connected to the alarm circuit and a grill is put in place to support the safe contents.

If the safe is compromised, the thermite ignites, and 5,000 degree F flames burns all organics to gas and ash, metals melted, and everything falls down into the pit. After cooling off, the only thing left of the safes contents is a blob of slag and ash.

------------------
"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"

Go here to download the NBK2000 website PDF.

Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 765
From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 03, 2001 04:00 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Very nice. Cement would be cheaper to do than Metal. I like the wire grid. I am surprised that you also chose Thermite; I guess great minds do think alike(*smirk*).

------------------
A wise man once said:
"...I Am Not Much of a Dancer But,
Just Wait Till The Fucking Begins"

Agent Blak-------OUT!!

Jumala
Frequent Poster
Posts: 199
From: Germany
Registered: OCT 2000
posted March 03, 2001 10:41 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hallo,
to use a light sensor, a LDR in the save with a delay electronic to the igniter is a good method.
Everyone who wants to open your save will use light (or he can´t see anything)while working to open it.

Sako
A new voice
Posts: 36
From:
Registered: NOV 2000
posted March 03, 2001 10:55 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What about having a fake lock on the front and if any body trys to pick, it would set off the Termite or have a combo lock on the front and have two combo's, 1 set's the termite off and the other opens it. Would that be possible?

Ctrl_C
Frequent Poster
Posts: 225
From:
Registered: NOV 2000
posted March 03, 2001 11:08 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
if what you're keeping in this safe is so important as to go through all this trouble, why not just hide it somewhere instead of making it attract attention to itself.

some ideas: in a hole in a wall covered by loose wallpaper, buried somewhere, in a volume of hollowed out encyclopedias connected together, in a space behind a false back to a bookcase or a false bottom to a drawer, in a speaker cabinet, in a space under a loose floor tile, in a false pipe in the basement et cetra

oh and btw, what about a fingerprint reader? the only way to get around that is to cut off the owner's finger.

[This message has been edited by Ctrl_C (edited March 03, 2001).]

HMTD Factory
Frequent Poster
Posts: 214
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted March 03, 2001 11:56 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Or duplicate the fingerprint.

My ideal safe will be mirror smooth and projection free (of course it has a fucking door!) Only one person knows how to open this
safe and if it has experienced forced entry, it then self destructs.

Then there will be a sign said : This safety
vault will detonate when experiencing unauthorized entry.

Better deter the one that trys to open it than losing valuables.

Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 765
From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 04, 2001 12:15 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cypher lock is to expensive; who said anything about not hiding it well?
Read the RTPB.pdf it is worht it!!

------------------
A wise man once said:
"...I Am Not Much of a Dancer But,
Just Wait Till The Fucking Begins"

Agent Blak-------OUT!!

PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1466
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 04, 2001 01:12 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would draw a picture if my computer was working but I was thinking of a key to open this, why not an electronic lock, you will have a hole in it that has contacts on the walls, so you make a key that only connects certain contacts, you could double or triple this needing 2 or 3 keys to be inserted in the right holes. connect any one wrong contact and BOOM the asshole trying to pick your lock looses his hands at best. to make a key like this you will need a system to make sure the key is in place like a sensor at the bottom. now of corse this will be hidden in something like the base mounting hole or something of the case and the stupid pigs will go for the apparent keypad at the front and probably try to hot-wire it and blow/melt their hands off. while you would just stick a pin in the bottom and take your stuff out. you probsbly could make one of these by taking aluminum berings and hobby beads and putting them on a shaft of a kind, of corse to be truly effective you will want to have an eay way to destrou the key so you can take the beads/berings off in a hurry. you might wanna make a note of the yeys so you can rebuild them

Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 765
From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 04, 2001 11:20 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you set it up to hurt the opperator you could get charged with that in court if nothing else. Unless you live in texas yuo can't protect your property with deadly force; only people(even that is a tricky area).

------------------
A wise man once said:
"...I Am Not Much of a Dancer But,
Just Wait Till The Fucking Begins"

Agent Blak-------OUT!!

nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1091
From: Guess
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 05, 2001 07:57 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Agent Blak, I like the signature. HAHAHA!

The whole point behind the SD safe is to destroy shit that will get you sent to prison. It defeats the purpose if in the process of destroying the dirt you end up maiming someone. Then you'll get busted for mayhem and bombs instead of the hacking or whatever it was that got their attention in the first place.

You want the safe to look like it's just your average joe blow wal-mart $200 sentry safe. This way the pigs think it's easy prey and take a sledge hammer and pry bar to it, not realising that it's a lot more difficult than that.

RTPB#51. Police operate by knowing the pattern of criminal behavior. If you don't fit the pattern, you are that
much harder to catch.

In this case, since SD safes aren't something police have seen, they're not thinking "We'd better analyze this safe before we try to force it open, it may be rigged to self-desruct." They'll think it's just the typical cheapo safe and end up destroying the very thing they're looking for.

Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 765
From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 06, 2001 12:42 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would still shield the conents with lead in case they try to fry the electronics or X-ray it. mind you the Mrays would destroys discs anyway.
NBK;
Thanx My boss told me that. I mean it in a different sense than he did. He also told me about the 4Fs...Find'em, Feel'em, Fuck'em, Forget'em.

------------------
A wise man once said:
"...I Am Not Much of a Dancer But,
Just Wait Till The Fucking Begins"

Agent Blak-------OUT!!

[Flake2m]

NBK has brought up a topic like this before but I came up with idea that I just had to share.
My idea:
The safe is made from reinforced concrete with walls 25mm thick. The door is 50mm thick. The inside room of the safe is approxmately 300x300x300mm (so 1 cubic foot of space). What makes the safe so secure is the six 25mm panal that make up the inner layer.
The inner layer panels are made out of Plaster of paris or Calcium Sulfate that has Mg/Al powder mixed into it. The Mg/Al turns the panels into incendary blocks. To reinforce the panels so they aren't brittle a copper mesh is intergrated into the panels, this also prevents any bugs or transmitters from working inside the safe. The panels also have a pyrophoric material to one side, so if a drill or saw manages to penetrate the concrete, the heat from the drill will ignite the pyrophoric layer which ignites the Calcium Sulfate panels and turns the contents into ash and slag.
The door does not have hinges or handles as these would be used to exploit a weakness. Instead there are two iron/cobalt strips which allow magnetic handles to be attached to the safe door so it can be removed. The locking mechanism consists of 8 bars that lock into the sides of the safe. I haven't figured whether a mechanical dial or electronic keypab is more suitable, however either one would have 2 combinations; The first combination is the real one and opens the safe the second one sets of the incendary panels.

While I was figuring out the concept for this safe I realised one delightful bonus with this safe. If the incendary panels were ignited while the safe was closed, then the safe would probaly explode from the heat and pressure. So not only would the contents be destroyed, but superhot chunks of concrete would fly all over the place.

[nbk2000]

NBK has brought up a topic like this before...


So rather than append this into an existing topic, like you're supposed to, you create a new one? Tsk, tsk, tsk...thought you'd know better by now. :(


While I was figuring out the concept for this safe I realised one delightful bonus with this safe. If the incendary panels were ignited while the safe was closed, then the safe would probaly explode from the heat and pressure. So not only would the contents be destroyed, but superhot chunks of concrete would fly all over the place.


It's also very likely that unburnt pieces of evidence would go flying all over the place as well. You don't want that to happen. Rather, you want the pressure to be vented, while the contents of the safe are retained inside it, so the burning process can be completed.

Also, plaster incendiary doesn't create any slag, just flame. While flame is good for burning organics, you also want slag to melt metals and fuse into a solid metal mass with the remains. Otherwise, you may have burnt up a gun, but it'll still be recognizable as such to a jury by the parts. But if it's a blob of iron slag...:p

[Flake2m]

My apologies to the mods and NBK.
IIRC paper, instantly combusts at about 450 degress C, however because it is a good insulator if there is a large amount of paper in the safe it might some how survive the combustion intact.
Maybe the plaster thermite could have some pieces of scrap metal in it. the scrap iron would increase the amount of slag formed.
However, making a pressure vent for the safe would be rather difficult without comprising the security of the contents. Maybe you could have a piece of incendary plaster in the safe that forms a vent as it is combusted.

[yt2095]

I`m fairly sure the 450 temp is in farenheight(sp?) as in Ray Bradburys book "Farenheight 451"

another possibility may be to incorporate some sort of "Area Denial" mechanism within the vicinity of the safe, allowing the thermal comp adequate time to do its work.

[knowledgehungry]

Yes it is farenheit, 451*, paper will be destroyed by thermite, you might want to add some extra oxidizer to the composition just to ensure complete combustion of all that is in the safe.

[nbk2000]

Any paper would have to stored in such a manner that air would be able to get to every piece of paper in the safe to ensure total combustion. If you have a stack of tightly bound paper, then it's entirely possible that, while the paper would char through, that the charred paper could be reconstructed and incriminating evidence retrieved.

That's why papers would have to be stored loose, and preferably in some sort of tumbling box. Think of a box or drum made of steel mesh that's attached to a drive shaft. When the SD is activated, the box holding the papers starts rotating around inside the safe, ensuring that all the paper is exposed to the flames, and the ashes are sifted out into an unreconstructable mess at the bottom, amoungst the rest of the ash and slag. :)

To me, "Area Denial" sounds a lot like some potent CW agent being sprayed into the room. CX or DFP come to mind as simple and efficiently quick. Though I suppose more mundane CS/OC would do in a pinch. ;)

As for venting, I'd think small diameter tubing set into the concrete below the safe would work well. Each tube is only a few millimeter in diameter, but there'd be dozens of them, all terminating in the floor of the safe, underneath an elevated steel plate, so no sneaky piggies with fiberoptic scopes could sneak a peek into the safe. :p

If the thermite/pyro composition was to contain toxic elements, then there's no reason why some of the tubes couldn't be used to vent OUT the toxic gases as fresh air is being sucked IN through others. :)

If you used a teflon-based incendiary, then clouds of superhot and corrosive fluoride smoke being ejected out into the room that the safe is in sounds like one hell of an area denial mechanism to me. :D

[Kid Orgo]

1) Flash paper. Magicians use it in tricks. Write your secrets on it, no thermite needed. Just a spark.

2) I recall some sort of paper being very soluble in water. The mob used to use it, the feds enter, the papers go into nearby buckets, no evidence. Rigging a safe to flood is easier than rigging a safe to combust.

Then again, neither of these ideas do a damned thing about floppy disks, hard drives, or metal.

[nbk2000]

I've got rice paper. :)

Write on it with a marker, and if piggies come a knockin', it dissolves into mush within a few seconds in your mouth.

[yt2095]

Kid Orgo,

Simple, buy your CD`s from NBK, they self destruct quite easily! LOL :D

http://roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2320&highlight=cds

++++++++++++++

Ooooo...cheap shot! :D

NBK

[Jacks Complete]

Sorry to re-open an old thread, but... (What are the rules on this, anyway? I am fairly new, so wasn't here to post originally, and I don't post unless I feel that I am adding some kind of value...)

Every time I have seen a system with self-destruct, it has been a case of open the door a little, and flick a switch, etc. Also, nbk2000, you really don't want to fumble that key!

When the safe door is opened, a delay timer (5 seconds) starts and the safe door only opens only a few inchs to allow key insertion. If the key is not inserted within 5 seconds, the SD burns everything to ash and slag. :eek:

A better system might be a simpler one. You have three seconds to open the door a full ninety degrees, or the fire goes up.

A more complex one, but perhaps easier to do given a lot of the other posts around here (the remote detonator thread), would be to use a wireless system to disarm the safe, as confirmed by an audiable beeping for ten or twenty seconds. Then you have those ten/20 seconds to open the safe door fully.

It could then re-arm whenever the door was closed.

Note that this topic has been kind of resurrected regarding hiding and destroying data in the watercooler http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3341

[abandonperfection]

KISS

How about a tightly sealed ceramic box with hinges and clamps on the outside with vent holes on the top and a thermite charge on the bottom. Attach the firing system to a photodiode and then to a sensor on the door of the larger safe, then a magnetic reed switch. If the door is opened or light is let in without the reed switch being deactivated by placing a magnet on top of the safe the thermite will ignite, venting through the holes in the top and leaving the slag to destroy everything in the ceramic box.