Log in

View Full Version : Long range vehicle detection


nbk2000
September 17th, 2002, 12:42 PM
Lately, I've been playing around with a laser pointer while goofing off outside. I'm in the middle of a freeway, with a car lot a couple hundred yards away.

Well, I've been practicing aiming my laser at the reflectors of the cars so I can see them "blink".

This gave me the idea of using a laser to detect vehicles at ranges farther than you could see them at night with the naked eye.

The basic idea is that practically all vehicles have reflectors on all sides, and license plates are usually retroflective as well.

(A UCLA researcher is already using the laser reflectance idea for automated driving. <a href="http://ansl.ee.ucla.edu/ancg/iris/iris.html" target="_blank">http://ansl.ee.ucla.edu/ancg/iris/iris.html</a> )

You'd use as bright a laser as possible, pass it through a line-generating optic, then use this to "scan" the area of interest while looking for the telltale flash of laser dazzle off of a car reflector.

By combining an IR laser with an NVD, you'd be able to detect vehicles at great range while remaining invisible yourself.

I've (in the past) used a $200 NVD to pick up the visible red laser pointer reflection off of cars a kilometer or more down the road.

I've been able to pick up cars parked on the other side of bushes where I couldn't see them by the reflection of the laser light of their reflectors, without the use of an NVD.

I tried explaining the concept to a piggie that often parks in front of my store. He (not surprisingly) couldn't grasp it in his feeble mind and said "That's what a spotlight is for!" and proceeds to light up the carlot with his.

"Great. Not only can you see them, but they can see you as well...for a 180 degree angle at more than a mile, while you can only see them within a 20 degree angle for a few hundred yards." :rolleyes:

With the laser, the incident light at long distance is too weak for a person at the target site to see the light unless they're looking directly into it. Anymore than a couple of degrees off axis and forget it, you're invisible. And that's only if you use visible light.

Anyways, the use that comes to mind (to my mind anyways <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ) is scanning for vehicles waiting in ambush down the road from you.

For instance, after the store robbery, while being driving back from ID'ing the punks van, I saw how they had their "perimeter" set up to catch the guys. They had a marked unit parked about a mile up the road with its lights on, but no one in it.

Another half mile up the road from that was another pigmobile with its lights out sitting in the dark, with a cop in it.

This would mean that they set the lit car as a decoy so that the perps would see it empty, go past it thinking they escaped, then be spotted by the cop sitting up the road in the dark (where they couldn't see him).

A cheapie NVD with an IR laser would be able to spot a parked vehicle at a kilometer, while the target wouldn't even know they'd been spotted.

Without the laser reflection, a blacked out car at a kilometer on a dark road would be invisible.

Another thought that comes to mind is all the reflective crap that cops wear, like their badges, gunbelts, etc.

In deep bush, you'd likely not be able to see them directly, but laser glint off of any reflective surface would stand out quite readily.

Mick
September 17th, 2002, 12:51 PM
an interesting idea indeed.

if only there was some way to identify what the laser reflects off.

<small>[ September 17, 2002, 11:52 AM: Message edited by: Mick ]</small>

Machiavelli
September 17th, 2002, 03:22 PM
Isn't this stuff used for counter-sniper work, too? For recognizing the reflection of the scope's lense.

vulture
September 17th, 2002, 03:53 PM
Have you ever seen the laser apparutus construction workers use to measure up rooms? It projects a laser grid to calculate the distance. With the laser grid projection you could more easily distinguish in which direction the vehicle is moving, if it's turning, etc...

However the chance of detection is bigger.

X-Wulf
September 17th, 2002, 04:46 PM
Two things:
Firstly, if you're using a line-generating or some other sort of spreading optic to increase the "scanning area", anyone facing within 180 degrees of your position will notice the red flicker the first time you sweep over them, "scanning" them again (and by now they would probably have turned to face your general location) and they'd be able to see where you are pretty accurately, especially at night.
Secondly, cars and cops aren't the only reflective objects that'll be in your field of view. You'd therefore probably have to have some sort of filter to ensure that your NVD only detects the reflections from metallic surfaces. This is how they use such devices for counter-sniping, they have filters that exclude all reflections except those from the sniper's nice anti-fog, anti-glare, anti-whatever-else scope, and can thus pinpoint there exact position.

Anybody know what these filters are made of? And where such materials can be bought or how they could be made (unlikely though)?

kingspaz
September 17th, 2002, 05:19 PM
what about the old india way of detecting vehicles (horses)?
put your ear to the ground. the main problem of this is that wheels are alot more quiet than hooves but maybe some sort of microphone could be adapted to listen for you. or maybe one of those bionic ears could be improvised for ground listening...just a thought

zaibatsu
September 18th, 2002, 12:41 PM
Talking of lenses and reflective surfaces, does the old trick of using thin material with a semi-loose weave to cover the front lense of a scope stop the lazer reflecting? The material allows the user to see out of the scope, but stops enemies noticing the perfectly round dark circle.

mongo blongo
September 18th, 2002, 10:27 PM
Kingspaz- Yes that would work! Put the mic output (via a preamp) through a compressor and EQ it to bring the lower frequencies up. You should be able to hear anything within a few miles. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Good Idea! :)

mrloud
September 18th, 2002, 11:06 PM
You would need one extraordinary microphone and set of amplification equipment. In fact you would be better off using a highly directional mic to detect the presence of anyone ahead through the air (not through the ground). With an omni directional mic you would pick up your own breathing and any other traffic in the area would cause too much interference.

It would even be cheaper to build a simple radar device to detect vehicles ahead of you. At least that could be built out of parts from automatic door openers and radar detectors. The audio equipment would cost many thousands of dollars and not work nearly as well.

J.T.Ripper
September 19th, 2002, 05:03 AM
You're embarassing yourself homie.

Leave.

Better yet, let me help you. :)

Oh...don't go away mad...just go away. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

<small>[ September 19, 2002, 05:44 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>

nbk2000
September 19th, 2002, 06:07 AM
Seismic vibration detection doesn't work if the vehicle is parked! Neither does directional microphones. :p

All piggie vehicles have light bars on the top that have parabolic reflectors built in that'll reflect the laser back quite nicely from virtually any angle.

Also, if a glint source isn't moving, then it's a stationary object, right? Annd what objects are stationary by the side of a freeway or road? Signs and parked cars. I'm sure you can tell the difference in the pattern.

Look at this reversed image picture of a laser scan:

<img src="http://ansl.ee.ucla.edu/graphics/iris_laser2.gif" alt=" - " />

What's this? A sign or a parked car?

Hmmm...two spots with a rectangle low and center...exit sign? :rolleyes:

Also, look at point of light in the distance on a pitch black night and tell me how far it is. You can't because there's no frame of reference to gauge distance by. I'm assuming a person wouldn't be stupid enough to backlight himself while using a visible laser. With IR, it'd be irrelevant as long as the enemy isn't using NVD themselves.

frostfire
September 20th, 2002, 12:27 AM
Many things/surface properties reflect light...you sure need an extensive data collection to make standarized reflection signature for different reflector (what about those hazy painted vehicles where it practically reflect no light whatsoever, add that with open windows, it's "invisible")

hmmm, you mean " With IR, it'd be irrelevant as long as the enemy (is) using NVD themselves." ???

also I belive thermal imaging would make a much accurate result (since you'll have your point of reference) and I'm guessing it's cheaper than that light system. Raytheon camera unit retail about $12000, and I saw the car mount unit some days ago sold at ebay for $5000 (detection range: over 1 mile)

<small>[ September 20, 2002, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: frostfire ]</small>

grey
September 22nd, 2002, 07:31 AM
Retail NVDs use IR laser illuminators which radiate partly in the visible spectrum, ie., click it on and your're a red dot - hi there ! The illuminators on video cams do not seem to have a visible component but not being laser emmitters have limited range.
I've looked through the electronics sources to find a non-visible IR laser (diode) but no luck - has anyone found one or would the only alternative be a conventional non diode laser ?

The idea of hitting reflectors at a distance is good - it would also pick up a dog team (dogs eyes are reflective) although the dog would probably spot the light and react.

If you are on foot with some ambient light then the close second best option is still a big (12x50) scope/binos plus nose plue ears. Option C is operate in bad rainy weather when 90% of the "opposing force" looses interest in being outside..

nbk2000
September 22nd, 2002, 01:03 PM
There are laser diodes available that are well into the IR range (over 1100nm), though whether or not the Wal-Mart NVDs are able to see these, I don't know.

I do know that the red glow is indeed visible on the illuminator that comes with the "Moonlight" brand of NVD. But it's very faint and wouldn't really be noticable except at close range or if moving.

I would think that even simple IR diodes would be useable for short range work. Short range being less than 50 yards. That's nowhere near what a 35mW IR laser could do, but you'd also only have to spend a couple of bucks at Rat-Shack to get it too. I can see car reflectors blink with a Brinkman LED light at about 50 yards under artifical lighting. Add total darkness with an NVD and you could likely get a hundred plus yards range.

Dogs and cats eyes are also reflective, so you could scan for any tracking dogs. I don't think that they (dogs) can see past 900nm, so an 1100nm IR laser would be invisible to even them. I did a google search to try to verify dogs visual range but wasn't able to find anything that directly specified their visual range.

PYRO500
September 22nd, 2002, 02:43 PM
I don't think regular night vision devices, esp gen 1 tubes like in wal mart can see much over the near infered portion of light. what light they do see is visable and near infired but it's amplified by the tube. Beacuse the tube sees light that we can't see they commonly make illuminators that take advantage of this and they make it so you can see but no one else without NV can. I have seen cheap NV illuminators that emit visable light and I have also seen surplus military illuminator flashlights (from decades when NV was new) that are designed to work with gen 1 tubes and emit no visable light.

frostfire
September 22nd, 2002, 03:05 PM
that is correct PYRO500, however not many NVD at wal mart are the cheap version, some night owl product such as the google ($500-$600)are conversion of russian NVD. These work very well with infra red illuminator.

Now this is what I was referring to, "got money?"
[URL=http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1382853621]

actually I mean this:
<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1383105417" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1383105417</a>

Also (hopefully related topics) anyone got idea what to do with this: <a href="http://www.apple.com/hotnews/articles/2002/05/draganflyer/" target="_blank">http://www.apple.com/hotnews/articles/2002/05/draganflyer/</a>

<small>[ September 22, 2002, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: frostfire ]</small>

PYRO500
September 22nd, 2002, 09:35 PM
Those thermal infired cameras don't need any ilumination. They already show the heat objects are giving off.