Log in

View Full Version : Obtaining sulfuric acid


hairyjoe
August 7th, 2001, 01:35 PM
anyone know where I could obtain sulfuric acid? Do i have to order it over the internet?

kingspaz
August 7th, 2001, 05:24 PM
ok, have you made any attempt to find it? eg. look in encyclopedias. also do a search sulfuric acid is one of the most widely used chemicals on the forum.

mark
August 7th, 2001, 05:27 PM
Its a drain opener. Its sold at ace as "hot shot"

kingspaz
August 7th, 2001, 05:31 PM
also found in fully charged car batteries in dilute form.

Lagen
August 7th, 2001, 06:41 PM
AFAIK a battery is about 35 times more expensive than its contents (might not matter if you have a junked one and 1 liter conc H2SO4 is enough for you). Don't order chemicals over the Internet - you get on the list.

EventHorizon
August 7th, 2001, 07:49 PM
Best thing I've found to date is battery refilling acid. Its 27% H2SO4(IIRC) and clear. I use a distillation setup and calculate how much H2O to boil out and keep track using a graduated distillate vessel. 5gal cost $10 and when conc. yeilds ~3.5L of 98%+.

Lagen
August 7th, 2001, 08:09 PM
I'm getting pretty much the same price, but for 38%. Or maybe yours is actually 38%.

mongo blongo
August 7th, 2001, 08:12 PM
Why do you use a distillation setup?
You don't need to collect the H2O.

mongo blongo
August 7th, 2001, 08:14 PM
Oh sorry i know what u r doing now http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

EventHorizon
August 7th, 2001, 09:02 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Lagen:
I'm getting pretty much the same price, but for 38%. Or maybe yours is actually 38%.</font>

You are so correct! The acid has sp. gr. of 1.265, which would be ~38% http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

NOTE: @ 38% the yeild would be 4.945L of 99%+ H2SO4 (if I've done me math correct).

[This message has been edited by EventHorizon (edited August 07, 2001).]

megalomania
August 8th, 2001, 01:56 AM
I have not found any sulfuric acid at Home Depot or Lowes. They use conc sodium hydroxide solutions. The hardware store I used to get mine went out of business. I have seen batery refills at Wal Mart and 50% conc at NAPA auto parts. I will have to check out Ace.

You may find some auto mechanics have used battery drop offs. Some other stores also have battery recycling drop offs. Wal Mart charged ME 5 god damn dollars to KEEP my OWN battery when I bought a new one. Just one more reason why I hate that place http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/mad.gif
They keep theirs in a locked bin out back.

------------------
For the most comprehensive and informative web site on explosives and related topics, go to Megalomania's Controversial Chem Lab at http://surf.to/megalomania

EventHorizon
August 8th, 2001, 09:15 AM
The ACE where I live sells a conc. drain cleaner, something like "Professional Drain Opener" and its supposed to be 93%+ H2SO4 accoding to the companies MSDS. Its contaminated tho or not of good quality. Sort of brownish.

hairyjoe
August 8th, 2001, 11:11 AM
why would ordering sulfuric acid on the internet put me on the list? is has alot of laboratory uses other than illegal ones. i am going to be a college freshman next year, as a chemistry major, so could i tell online vendors i need it for research lab purposes?

Gab
August 8th, 2001, 02:34 PM
I have bought sulphuric acid as drain opener. On the back it's written "Contains sulphuric acid and inhibiting agents". Is it supposed to work ? I have tried to make NC but it didn't work (maybe because i didn't use an ice bath). Do all drain openers contain that ?

EventHorizon
August 8th, 2001, 03:09 PM
One thing that might be of interest. When two choices are available, generic and name brand, get the generic not just for monitary reasons but most times the generic brands do not contain buffers, inhibitors, additives,etc.

Donutty
August 10th, 2001, 08:43 PM
?? You have problems getting Conc H2SO4 in the US ??

It's easily bought over here in the UK, sold as drain cleaner and is 91%. 1l is very heavy compared to, say, water as it has a much higher density. It's purple in colour but that don't matter. Works fine for NC and TNP. Haven't really got round to making HNO3 yet...i've got all the setup (Vigreux column/flask, condensor etc.)

CragHack
August 10th, 2001, 08:46 PM
what part of the US do you live in donnuty? cause i know in the north eastern part of the country you can get the stuff in 93% quantities

------------------
"If you must, do it with intelligent people, at least they know how to talk to the cops."

Anthony
August 10th, 2001, 09:22 PM
Donutty's in the UK. I used to use the same stuff as he does, but I've now found some 95-97% stuff at 2/3rds the price. Only downside is it's very dark brown.

hairyjoe
August 11th, 2001, 01:29 AM
THANK YOU EVERYBODY!!!! I have been searching around for a few days, but to no avail. But today I went into Ace and found industrial strength drain cleaner that says its conc sulfuric acid. it doesnt say the exact concentration, but i can boil it to 98% or so can't i? btw, the brown shit and the inhibitors will come out when i distill wont they?

Victim
August 18th, 2001, 12:16 PM
Donutty/Antony, whats the stuff called, (on the lable) and where abouts do you buy it from? also a side note to mega, the picture next to your name, what is it? Just out of intrest.

Teck
August 18th, 2001, 03:26 PM
guys can you help out if I boil my sulfuric acid from batteries how do I know if its concetrated to 95+%. I read aboout boiling it in a pan till you see white fumes then stop. But if the acid is like 30% doesnt 60%-70% of H<sub>2</sub>0 has to evaporate so heating it to the point where you see fumes isn't enough right. so whats the right way to doit?

Lagen
August 18th, 2001, 04:38 PM
You could either:
1) Measure the temperature - @ 337°C you're finished
2) Measure the density - a bit tricky at 300+°C, but do this after cooling if you're not sure it's been boiled down enough
3) Just watch it. When I boil mine, it goes like this: After heating up to roughly 100°C the acid boils quite vigorously (mostly water boils off), then gradually the boiling slows down and the temperature increases (assuming the heating power stays constant). Near completion the boiling stops completely (and teapots often crack - whoooosshhhhhhh!!!!! - make sure your isn't scratched prior to boiling). After a few minutes the "white fumes" appear - you will notice this is not water vapour, it moves slowly, doesn't disappear when carried away by wind like water vapour does, and feels VERY irritant in the lungs.

10fingers
August 18th, 2001, 05:41 PM
Used battery acid is often of low concentration because if the battery is dead there will be much more water than acid. I buy 5 gallons of battery electrolyte from the auto parts store for $12.00. This will yield about 1.6 gallons of conc. H2SO4.
I have found that it must be heated for about 15 minutes after dense white fumes start to come off. The best way to check this is by weighing it and measuring the density or using a hydrometer. The density should be 1.834 grams per milliliter.
I use a glass coffee pot. Check it for nicks before every use. I put a piece of woven glass cloth over the pot to keep things from falling in, this also seems to help in the concentration process for some reason.
It is a good idea to not touch or move this pot until it has completely cooled down.

megalomania
August 18th, 2001, 11:13 PM
10fingers, that's a good price for acid. The last time I paid for some 94% it was $7-$8 a half-gallon. Lab grade can be as low as $20-$25 a gallon for 70%, and can cost much much more (plus shipping too). Where did you get your acid at?

Victim, the pic next to my name is from the very last American episode of Sailor Moon, where one of them has a psychic vision about the future. It is Melvin all grown up concocting some sort of deadly bio weapon in his lab.

------------------
For the most comprehensive and informative web site on explosives and related topics, go to Megalomania's Controversial Chem Lab at http://surf.to/megalomania

10fingers
August 18th, 2001, 11:56 PM
Mega, I get my acid at NAPA auto parts, I don't know if they are a national chain. I'm in the north central U.S. I've also seen the 93% H2SO4 drain cleaner in 1/2 gallons at Home Depot for around $12.00.

nbk2000
August 19th, 2001, 01:10 AM
I KNEW that picture was from sailor moon.

A good place for used batteries is mower repair shops. They usually have piles of them lying around.

Heating the acid till it's boiled will destroy any organic impurities into carbon. Inorganics should eventually settle out. I have a process for purifying it, but I'll have to look it up.

------------------
"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"

Go here (http://members.nbci.com/angelo_444/dload.html) to download the NBK2000 website PDF.

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 videos.

Demolition
August 19th, 2001, 02:28 AM
Over here in OZ it is very difficult to find any concentration of H2SO4.The only place I have seen H2SO4 for sale (apart from batteries) was in a very large "DIY" store and it wasn't 90%+ but more like 30%.They only had one bottle of it and it looked like it had been sitting there for a while.For 4 liters (1 gallon) it was about $10 aus dollars.I think I might have a look if it is still there.Just so I know I've got it when I need it.

I find it ironic that 98% H2SO4 is readily available in the UK while you "POM'S" http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif have problems finding concentrated HCl~32%.Over here I can buy 5 liters of It for $15 dollars.It just depends on where abouts you live I suppose.
(btw-I'd rather be able to buy con H2SO4 than con HCl)

Lagen
August 19th, 2001, 09:19 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">if the battery is dead there will be much more water than acid</font>Any car battery contains more water than acid. The concentration in fully charged batteries can vary from 34-38%. The battery is considered discharged if the concentration falls to 18%. However, a "dead" battery (for example if it was kept shorted for an extended period of time) can have as low a concentration as 00%. I do not boil down acid from batteries. It is expensive (if the battery is new), impure with lead compounds and again, there might not be any H2SO4 at all (if the battery is junk). For comparison, these are the prices I get for a selection of acids in my country. (It is NOT a copy and paste from a pricelist, they are the "useful" acids available to me license-free. Except for H2SO4 38% and HCl 31% they are lab grade.)<SMALL><CENTER>

<TABLE BORDER=2 CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=2><CAPTION ALIGN=TOP></CAPTION><TR><td width="130">Liquids</td><td width="50">conc.</td><td width="60" ALIGN=CENTER>US$/gal.
</td><td width="50"> </td><td width="150">Solids</td><td width="60" ALIGN=CENTER>US$/lb.</td></tr><TR><td>H2SO4</td><td>38%</td><td ALIGN=RIGHT>1.86
</td><td></td><td>COOHCOOH</td><td ALIGN=RIGHT>1.22
</td></tr><TR><td>H2SO4</td><td>96%</td><td ALIGN=RIGHT>5.98</td><td></td><td>(CHOHCOOH)2</td><td ALIGN=RIGHT>3.56
</td></tr><TR><td>HCl</td><td>31%</td><td ALIGN=RIGHT>1.86</td><td></td><td>C6H5COOH</td><td ALIGN=RIGHT>1.66
</td></tr><TR><td>HCl</td><td>36%</td><td ALIGN=RIGHT>2.87</td><td></td><td>H3BO3
</td><td ALIGN=RIGHT>1.87
</td></tr><TR><td>HF</td><td>40%</td><td ALIGN=RIGHT>10.20</td><td></td><td><td></td></td></tr><TR><td>HI</td><td>57%</td><td ALIGN=RIGHT>272.58</td><td></td><td><td></td></td></tr><TR><td>HNO3</td><td>65%</td><td ALIGN=RIGHT>2.61</td><td></td><td><td></td></td></tr><TR><td>CH3COOH</td><td>99%</td><td ALIGN=RIGHT>9.80</td><td></td><td><td></td></td></tr><TR><td>COOH</td><td>85%</td><td ALIGN=RIGHT>10.52</td><td></td><td><td></td></td></tr><TR><td>H3PO4</td><td>85%</td><td ALIGN=RIGHT>11.10</td><td></td><td><td></td></td></tr></table></CENTER><font color=#336699>

[This message has been edited by Lagen (edited August 20, 2001).]

Teck
August 20th, 2001, 04:40 AM
Lagen: ïðèâåò, òè ðóñêèé? (NO animated smilies. NBK2000)


[This message has been edited by Teck (edited August 20, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited August 20, 2001).]

Lagen
August 20th, 2001, 09:16 AM
(Decode this: The Forum is an english language forum ONLY! Do it again and you won't have to provide a translation because you won't be a member here anymore! NBK2000)

Hello, Teck! No...

[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited August 20, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Lagen (edited August 20, 2001).]

Disturbed
August 25th, 2001, 05:12 AM
Damn, I was right about that for once! I knew that pic was from Sailor Moon! I'm glad to know that I'm not the only guy who's seen that show a few times..
Btw, I normally buy my H2SO4 at menards.. Comes in a white 1/2gal bottle, inside a plastic bag.. 93%, doesnt show any signs of impurities at all, other than the normal off-clear kinda color, due to refraction i believe. Costs about 10$. It might be more expensive than dilute acid, but when you are boiling it on a camp stove, and you have to change the propane cylinder at least once just to boil 1L down.. it's not worth it!
Besides, it takes that stupid stove about 2hrs to do the job!

------------------
====
kein mitleid fur die mehrheit

X-Wulf
August 25th, 2001, 04:55 PM
I keep seeing ppl talking about boiling the water off an acid solution (usually sulphuric acid).
But consider this: the melting point of water is +/- 0,1'C (you know what I mean), and the melting point of
H2SO4 is +/- 10,3'C. That gives you a margin of 10,2'C. So why then not simply cool down the solution and crystallise(?) out the acid?
I'm no chemist, but that should work, right?

P.S. the exact boiling temp. of H2SO4 (probably pure though) is 338'C.

------------------
Live Forever!

Lagen
August 25th, 2001, 06:13 PM
Are you sure the components of a solution can be separated in that way if they are miscible with each other? How about eutectic mixtures? Why then do car batteries remain operatable at -50°C if fully charged (c=38%), and freeze at a few degrees minus when flat (c=18%)?

Disturbed
August 29th, 2001, 04:43 AM
Lagen,
What exactly does the term eutectic mean? Forgive my ignorance, I've yet to take any chemistry classes at college yet.
Is that a synonym for azeotrope?
Thanks!

------------------
====
kein mitleid fur die mehrheit

PYRO500
August 29th, 2001, 02:58 PM
I have a picture of the chems I sometimes use to make Acetone Peroxide with, sulfuric acid is one of them. I get my H2SO4 from home depot, http://www.geocities.com/pyro2000us/chemicals.JPG

you wil have to cut and paste this link into your browser to get it to work.

cutefix
August 30th, 2001, 03:07 AM
Go to this page: http://www.matter.org.uk/solidification/eutectic/Default.htm# then click the word eutectic (the meaning will appear in the glossary.) The definition of the azeotrope is found here; http://www.pharmacy.purdue.edu/~mcmp205/benzocaine/azeotrope.html. I hope it clears up the difference between these words.

drshneb
March 26th, 2003, 05:50 AM
sorry if this is a really stupid question but i've been looking for the answer for this for a while to no avail and cannot conduct the experiment to find out for myself, but is H2SO4 decomposable by electrolysis, if not i suppose you could just seperate the water from battery acid which i can buy relatively cheaply from the hardware store. I apologise in advance if this question is an example of stupidity beyond belief.

<small>[ March 26, 2003, 04:55 AM: Message edited by: drshneb ]</small>

Guerilla
March 26th, 2003, 07:39 AM
What the hell.. Yes, it decomposes by electrolysis, but why should you electrolyse it anyways? Obtaining the acid as a drain opener would be cheaper than buying several 38% battery acid bottles and concentrating them, both should be available in the hardware stores.. read this thread from the beginning..

frogfot
March 26th, 2003, 09:32 AM
No it don't decompose.. There are a way of making H<sub>2</sub>O<sub>2</sub> by electrolysing dilute (40%?) sulfuric acid, where it acts as catalyst. This means it is being recovered. Though removing water by electrolysis would take alot of time.

I was thinking about how much lead impurities there would be in acid from lead battery, and it seems that there should be VERY little ammount of lead! Look at it this way:
Only lead compound that is present in electrolyte from lead acid battery is PbSO<sub>4</sub>. It's solubility is very bad, 1,48*10<sup>-4</sup> mol/liter, and it's decreased further because of sulfate ions present. It's solubility product is 1,6*10<sup>-8</sup>. If our acid have concentration of 30% (spec. gr. 1,2g/ml), it is 3,67M solution.
Calculating solubility of lead sulfate in 3,67M sulfuric acid gives following:
1,6*10<sup>-8</sup> = [Pb<sup>2+</sup>]*3,67
[Pb<sup>2+</sup>] = 4,36*10<sup>-9</sup> mol Pb per 1000 ml
..which is unbeliveably small ammount!
Now i will hunt for a lead battery.

<small>[ March 26, 2003, 08:36 AM: Message edited by: frogfot ]</small>

Anthony
March 26th, 2003, 10:14 AM
Within the battery itself, electrolysis converts water and lead sulphate into sulphuric acid. But only up to ~30% :p

Tuatara
March 26th, 2003, 07:18 PM
How about electroplating the copper out of a copper sulphate solution? Would this terminate in an equilibrium state with the copper metal being being redisolved at the same rate as it gets plated out, leaving a mix of acid and copper sulphate?

Or am I talking crap.

CuSO<sub>4</sub> is readily available at any garden shop.

frogfot
March 27th, 2003, 03:35 AM
Tuatara, i've tested it and it works. Electrolysed 20g CuSO<sub>4</sub>*5H<sub>2</sub>O in 100 ml water, untill blue colour dissapeared. Used graphite electrodes, though probably a copper cathode can be used instead. Till the end there evolved alot of heat and hydrogen at cathode.
I then boiled down this solution, it was about 3ml yellow liquid, and sprinkled some KNO<sub>3</sub> in it and nitrated cotton, with success.

I was also thinking about another reaction, bubbling H<sub>2</sub>S through copper sulfate solution:
CuSO<sub>4</sub>(aq) + H<sub>2</sub>S(g) ==&gt; CuS(s) + H2SO4(aq)
CuS would precipitate nearly totally. Oh, and H<sub>2</sub>S can be generated from reaction of water with Al<sub>2</sub>S<sub>3</sub>. And Al<sub>2</sub>S<sub>3</sub> is produced when S is burned with Al, seems easy ubtainable, but stinky.. would this be possible?
Maby combining those two reactions? First remove majority of Cu by electrolysis and then, traces are removed with H<sub>2</sub>S.

<small>[ March 27, 2003, 02:37 AM: Message edited by: frogfot ]</small>

vulture
March 27th, 2003, 05:07 PM
Normally this reaction won't work as H2S is a much too weak acid to drive H2SO4 out of its salts. However, there could be another reason why this reaction might work in solution, because CuS is nearly insoluble IIRC. Although I still doubt its possible.

Einsteinium
April 2nd, 2003, 04:15 PM
Hi everyone, I'm new here and wish to congrats you all for this awesome board. Actually the reaction between CuSO<sub>4</sub> and H<sub>2</sub>S won't take place at all since at room temperature the speed of this reaction :

CuS + H<sub>2</sub>SO<sub>4</sub> -&gt; H<sub>2</sub>S + CuSO<sub>4</sub>

proceeds tremendously faster than the reverse since the relative acidity of the concerned coumpounds. Even if the solubility of CuS is very small in the media (~2,5x10<sup>-18</sup>mol/L) it won't start to precipitates since it will almost instantly reacts with the sulfuric acid produced. Maybe performing this reaction at high temperatures would help but entropy favors the reaction producing H<sub>2</sub>S at high temps, thus it shouldn't work even there. You might want to try this reaction instead :

H<sub>2</sub>S + 4H<sub>2</sub>O<sub>2</sub> -&gt; H<sub>2</sub>SO<sub>4</sub> + 4H<sub>2</sub>O

I personally never tried it but it may also leave you with a bunch of SO<sub>2</sub> fumes instead of sulfuric acid... as the saying goes; caveat emptor. By the way, H<sub>2</sub>S can easily be produced from the reaction between FeS (fool's gold) and HCl. This gas is very nasty as many dead clandestine operator found out themselves, be careful handling it.

vulture
April 2nd, 2003, 05:01 PM
Einsteinium, I thought that H<sub>2</sub>S + H<sub>2</sub>O<sub>2</sub> would yield elemental sulfur and water IIRC.

BTW, you're a refreshing change from the usual n00bies we see here, keep it up! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Einsteinium
April 2nd, 2003, 05:24 PM
Well, Well... I really should have checked my thermodynamics tables with more interest before suggesting this one.. Actually the reaction would definitivly proceeds as vulture suggests, producing useless elemental sulfur and water (the reaction to elemental sulfur is greatly favored over any other that may happens) :/. Seems obvious at this point that I simply go to the nearest home depot and buy the brownish crap like almost everyone else used to do :) BTW you can filter the crappy brownish acid (well, the "professionnal drain cleaner" brand, if this is a brand in any way) over silica gel (powdered glass treated with a strong acid) to somewhat lighten the acid's color (don't expect the pure very clear sulfuric acid with a nice yellowish hue).

Also, thanks Vulture for the appreciated welcoming words and good luck with any synth not going through SO<sub>3</sub> or electicity.

0EZ0
April 2nd, 2003, 10:54 PM
Einsteinium, leading H<sub>2</sub>S into a H<sub>2</sub>O<sub>2</sub> solution isn't, as vulture says, going to produce sulfuric acid. Eg.

H<sub>2</sub>S + H<sub>2</sub>O<sub>2</sub> ----&gt; S + 2H<sub>2</sub>O

At the moment I'm studying various routes of oxidation of pollutants like SO<sub>2</sub> to Acids. Many are involved in water treatment, which is the reason for my curiosity. There's quite alot of interesting reactions like this one.

H<sub>2</sub>S + 4 NaOCl ----&gt; H<sub>2</sub>SO<sub>4</sub> + 4 NaCl

Or this one

SO<sub>2</sub> + H<sub>2</sub>O<sub>2</sub> ----&gt; H<sub>2</sub>SO<sub>4</sub>

Or these ones for treatment of Nitrogen oxides

2NO + 3H<sub>2</sub>O<sub>2</sub> ----&gt; 2HNO<sub>3</sub> + 2H<sub>2</sub>O
2NO<sub>2</sub> + H<sub>2</sub>O<sub>2</sub> ----&gt; 2HNO<sub>3</sub>

In practice the nitric acid reaction yields an acid 20-30% concentration. Not too shabby if you can distill it for further purity.

I've got a few patent numbers somewhere that I've collected on producing Sulfuric acid by oxidation of gases too.

Mods, should I open a new topic on chemical means to sulfuric acid?
There's alot of juicy reactions I would like to post :) . I think many are relevant to the home experimentor.
Although it puzzles me why this hasn't been discussed before :confused: . Maybe the processes are flawed when tried on a laboratory scale?

<small>[ April 02, 2003, 09:59 PM: Message edited by: 0EZ0 ]</small>

Einsteinium
April 2nd, 2003, 11:19 PM
Yeah, the reaction isn't good at all as I agreed with vulture's thinking on my previous post. However, I do the like way you support the movement I started, by writing such ugly reactions as:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">H<sub>2</sub>S + 4 NaOCl ----&gt; H<sub>2</sub>SO<sub>4</sub> + 4 NaCl
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">since, unfortunatly;

H<sub>2</sub>SO<sub>4</sub> + NaCl -&gt; HCl + NaHSO<sub>4</sub>

:D

<small>[ April 02, 2003, 10:20 PM: Message edited by: Einsteinium ]</small>

0EZ0
April 2nd, 2003, 11:31 PM
I apologise Einsteinium. I should have offered the page from which that reaction was found.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> In aqueous solution at pH 7 (typical pH for municipal wastewater), the sodium hypochlorite oxidation of H2S yields predominantly sulfate, as follows:

H2S + 4 NaOCl ----&gt; H2SO4 + 4 NaCl

Therefore, 8.76 mg/l NaOCl (100%) are theoretically required to oxidize 1 mg/l of H2S. In actual practice, NaOCl:H2S weight ratios required for effective odor control range from 5:1 to as much as 15:1.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">That was taken from a Municipal Wastewater page on H<sub>2</sub>S control. The page is found below.

<a href="http://www.h2o2.com/applications/municipalwastewater/hypochlorite.html" target="_blank">http://www.h2o2.com/applications/municipalwastewater/hypochlorite.html</a>

As you see in the quote, the reactants are very dilute. Can anyone offer an insight as to whether the stated reaction can still take place with more concentrated reagents? Or will the reaction just proceed as Einsteinium has corrected?

Einsteinium
April 3rd, 2003, 12:35 AM
After looking at the ref you posted, I must say that neither you (they) or me are wrong. Actualy, since the solution is very diluted, after bubling H2S into NaOCl, you get theses ions in solution :

H<sub>3</sub>O<sup>+</sup>, Na<sup>+</sup>, Cl<sup>-</sup>, HSO<sub>4</sub><sup>-</sup>, SO<sub>4</sub><sup>2-</sup>

According to their equation.

A diluted sulfuric acid solution mainly looks like: H<sub>3</sub>O<sup>+</sup>, HSO<sub>4</sub><sup>-</sup>, SO<sub>4</sub><sup>2-</sup>

While a diluted HCl solution looks like: H<sub>3</sub>O<sup>+</sup>, Cl<sup>-</sup>

Thus we could say that both acids are present in the actual solution you get from the reaction. Unfortunatly, if you try to concentrate this solution, at some point HCl will be released as a gas and you will be left with NaHSO<sub>4</sub> as well as traces of Na<sub>2</sub>SO<sub>4</sub>

Acid-base theory predicts this behavior since sulfuric acid (very strong) reacts with the base (even if very weak) Cl<sup>-</sup> to produce the weaker acid HCl. It's saddening as it would have been a nice reaction, other reaction seems correct though, and very interesting since you can burn H<sub>2</sub>S into SO<sub>2</sub> and then make good use of H<sub>2</sub>O<sub>2</sub>.

<small>[ April 03, 2003, 01:20 AM: Message edited by: Einsteinium ]</small>

0EZ0
April 3rd, 2003, 01:01 AM
Well thats good news. The Sodium Hypochlorite reaction was just a curiosity. The reaction of H<sub>2</sub>S/NaOCl isn't going to be as economical as the SO<sub>2</sub>/H<sub>2</sub>O<sub>2</sub> reaction anyway, so it doesn't bother me that the first will not work as planned.

frogfot
April 3rd, 2003, 10:18 AM
Whow, SO<sub>2</sub>/H<sub>2</sub>O<sub>2</sub> seems to be very convinient. I think SO<sub>2</sub> should be produced easily. We have burned sulfur in shool by heating it in a test tube while spraying oxygene on it, as i remember correctly reaction was sometimes so violent that corc flyed off (corc had an outlet pipe too). Could one maintain a constant flame on sulfur if usual air was sprayed on it instead?

Btw, i would take up H<sub>2</sub>S/CuSO<sub>4</sub> again, have searched a bit and it seems reaction is possible. Look at it this way, dissociation of CuS is 6,3*10<sup>-36</sup> and for H<sub>2</sub>S it's 8,9*10<sup>-8</sup>. This means that when following reaction occurs:
CuS + 2H<sup>+</sup> ==&gt; H<sub>2</sub>S + Cu<sup>2+</sup>
H<sub>2</sub>S would dissociate and directly form solid CuS because of above mentioned dissociation constants.. they differ by about 10<sup>28</sup> times. I think it's worth to try this reaction. Only crappy thing is that bubbler used in reaction would probably tap with formed solid..

<small>[ April 03, 2003, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: frogfot ]</small>

vulture
April 3rd, 2003, 12:34 PM
HCl is actually a stronger acid in pure form. But, since it is much more volatile, HCl will be slowly produced when mixing a chloride with sulfuric acid. The reaction completely favors HCl at higher temperatures.

We're getting in interesting equilibrium state here, because:

H<sub>2</sub>S + 4NaOCl ----&gt; H<sub>2</sub>SO<sub>4</sub> + 4NaCl

H<sub>2</sub>SO4 + NaCl ----&gt; HCl + NaHSO<sub>4</sub>

2HCl + NaOCl ---&gt; Cl<sub>2</sub> + NaCl + H<sub>2</sub>O

Cl<sub>2</sub> + H<sub>2</sub>O ---&gt; HClO + HCl

and so on and so on....

The guys at the plant might be witnessing an oscillating reaction without knowing it! :D

Einsteinium
April 3rd, 2003, 01:32 PM
Well, the guy at the plant is working with so mimine concentrations that he would never really witness Cl<sub>2</sub> getting out his vessel <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Anyway, it takes an somewhat respectable acidic pH (&gt;5) for the dismutation of HOCl to proceeds and in so minime concentrations the pH stays around 7.

Actually, H<sub>2</sub>SO<sub>4</sub> is a stronger acid than HCl in both aqueous solutions :

pKa HCl = -7
pKa H<sub>2</sub>SO<sub>4</sub> = -9

Pure H<sub>2</sub>SO<sub>4</sub> is roughly 10<sup>12</sup> times more acidic than the same acid as a 1M aq sol. In fact, anything more acidic than pure H<sub>2</sub>SO<sub>4</sub> is commonly called a "superacid" (SO<sub>3</sub> is one of them, HCl isn't).

Einsteinium
April 3rd, 2003, 02:54 PM
Frogfot: About the CuSO4/H2S reaction...

The thermodynamics does says that the reaction is spontaneous as an oxydoreduction. Also, since precipitation of CuS occurs, it drives the equilibrium to the formation of H<sub>2</sub>SO<sub>4</sub>. Unfortunatly oxydoreduction reactions proceeds way slower than acid-base proton exchange with occurs between H<sub>2</sub>SO<sub>4</sub> and CuS thus I still believe it wouldn't work. However, since the reaction is spontaneous you can build a galvanic cell with a salt brige (or a ceramic cell in a bath), one containing copper sulfate and the other is bubled with H<sub>2</sub>S (you just have to plug both electrode with a decent copper wire). You will get precipitated sulfur in the bubbled cell and H<sub>2</sub>SO<sub>4</sub> in the other (as well as elemental copper on the electrode). I'm certain this reaction would work, I just don't know if it would proceed fast enough to be of interest.

Mendeleev
January 12th, 2004, 11:56 PM
I have no problem getting H2SO4, I can name 4 available drain cleaners offhand :D, and the NAPA store which sells acid refills, however I was wondering if anybody had any experience in using boiled down drain cleaner acid for a nitrating mixture. I have no doubt that the acid is around 98%, however it is kind of disconcerting that it is black, and I mean black, not brown or murky but black :confused: (that's the floweasy stuff with virgin sulfuric acid and 12 buffers). So if anyone has used drain cleaner in a nitrating mixture could you relate your results?

blindreeper
January 13th, 2004, 01:41 AM
Most people on this board use drain cleaner sulfuric acid for nitrations. ALENGOSV1G1 has a synthesis for TNP on his website (has been taken down sadly) that uses black H2SO4 and it worked perfectly. He also uses the black H2SO4 to perferm the synthesis of NG. I don't think the "12 Buffers" will effect nitration greatly. I would kill to be able to have cheap drain cleaner H2SO4 in Australia, the only drain cleaner is mo-flo which you have to go to special plumbng places to get it with a fat price of $45/L

Ammonal
January 13th, 2004, 02:32 AM
Blindreeper have you tried places like "Battery World", or anywhere they sell lead/acid batteries? Because I bought a new battery for my quadrunner the other day and I got a battery and a 1 litre bottle of H2SO4. I had to use this in the battery, but surely if you had a good battery that fell over and the acid mixture ran out and you didnt want to buy a new battery but instead refill the one which is now conveniently empty... forgive me if this suggestion has already been made I only came in on the tail end of this thread.

blindreeper
January 13th, 2004, 02:41 AM
I rang up battery world one time and they said they can't give me any electrolyte but can refill my battery for free. The only problem is when it enters the battery it gets contaminated with lead, even though only minutes amounts I don't like the idea. Besides I am placing an order for 10L of 98% Technical grade H2SO4 soon. Will set me back about $90 but its better than battery acid and cheaper than mo-flo :)

Cyclonite
January 13th, 2004, 08:25 AM
90$ for 10L thats not bad at all....

Bert
January 13th, 2004, 11:07 AM
I have a diesel truck with two LARGE batteries. Last time I needed electrolyte, CarQuest had 5 gal. of (34%?) for about $15.00 US.

Mendeleev
January 13th, 2004, 06:26 PM
For anyone that's interested one of the better types of sulfuric acid drain cleaner is this stuff called liquid fire. I pulled into an ACE today to resupply my sulfuric acid, and having seen on the internet that ACE has sulfuric acid drain cleaners I went there hoping maybe they would have some brands that Lowes didn't (Lowes has Roebic and Floweasy). Hoping to find that "Professional" stuff that was mentioned earlier in the thread I instead found "Liquid Fire" which I had seen on the floweasy website ( www.plumbest.com ). Just for anyone who's curious they were doing one of those biased comparisons to show how much better their product is. Losers. Thank's to their info I'm not buying their drain cleaner. This Liquid Fire is the Shit. It is dark somewhere between 90-96% concentration and it is much more clear, with a very slight yellow-light brown color. There was a discussion earlier on this thread about how it is better to buy the more generic type rather than the specific type, well the floweasy looked like it was specifically designed for drain cleaning and looked like it was designed for some soccer mom or motherfucker who would be impressed by the label "contains 12 buffers". The Liquid Fire stuff looks like someone decided to sell Technical grade sulfuric acid and in this case simply strapped on a drain cleaner label :D. It is also cheaper $7.19 per 946 mL vs. $8.77 per 946 mL for the other stuff from roebic and plumbest which was black. Unfortunately I don't think that this stuff is on the ACE website www.acehardware.com . In the Great OTC survey thread someone stated we should start posting pictures, but since I am unable to do so at the moment... Important facts for people who want to start using this stuff:

Name: Liquid Fire
Company: Amazing! Products, Inc.
Company Address: P.O. Box 14226 Louisville, Kentucky 40214
Label Key Words: "Amazing!", "Liquid Fire", and "Drain Line Opener"
Container Appearance: Red Cylinder with white cap and white label taped around it. (The white label looks very simple no colors, just text and the "LIQUID FIRE" letters are flaming.) The bottles I bouth also had a warning label with safety information taped around the neck.
Place found: ACE Hardware in the Southeastern United States

This should be the next best thing to a picture. Enjoy...

Ammonal
January 14th, 2004, 08:24 AM
Apparently sulphuric acid is used a flux for brazing and soldering certain metals, my neighbour reckons you can buy both HCl and H2SO4 from the hardware store. But I havent looked into it yet, when I do I'll let you know.

grendel23
January 14th, 2004, 08:37 AM
In the US, the term acid flux refers to one containing zinc chloride.
Perhaps H<sub>2</sub>SO<sub>4</sub> is used as a flux elsewhere in the world, but I would be surprised.

blindreeper
January 15th, 2004, 08:55 AM
My dad steals my HCl to use as a flux for copper pipes. Now my acid has funky copper salt particles in it which sucks. I am not sure about H2SO4 as flux, but I may be wrong. The other week though I saw this rust remover which was a 250ml bottle in Mitre Ten (hardware store) and it was in a yellow container which had a sealed plastic bag around it just like US H2SO4 drain cleaner. It was very heavy indeed so could this be H2SO4 or just some really high concentrated H3PO4? I head rumours about H2SO4 being in mitre ten, I will look into it :)

inikamoze1
January 26th, 2004, 08:58 AM
The sulphuric acid I know of is 91% sulphuric acid drain opener under the name "one shot", similar products to this (usually only different in concentration and dye colour) can be obtained in many hardware stores across the UK... this can then be made more concentrated (up to about 97-98%) by boiling in a well ventilated area till white fumes stop appearing.

Mendeleev
January 26th, 2004, 12:43 PM
I don't think the white fumes stop appearing. The white fumes are H2SO4 decomposing inot H20 and SO3, and as long as you boil it, sulfuric acid will continue to decompose and the column of SO3 will only grow.

blindreeper
January 31st, 2004, 04:04 AM
I found that in Australia if you go to the right Supercheap Auto store they sell 1l bottles of water clear H2SO4 (365g/L) for $9. You are sposed to buy a dry battery in order to buy the acid but if there is a stupid teenage chick on the counter they won't know :)

Mendeleev
January 31st, 2004, 10:08 AM
356g/L at 9$ is a bit a expensive, or is it like a 10 liter bottle? About 1/2 to 2/3 or it will vanish if you boil it down.

blindreeper
January 31st, 2004, 09:54 PM
I know its expensive at $9/L and no its only a 1L bottle.

Zeitgeist
February 11th, 2004, 07:48 AM
I haven't tried buying it, but it IS in most S.C.A stores

And they employ lots of dumb teen chicks, Who i am sure are extremely helpful with car parts advice

al93535
February 17th, 2004, 06:36 PM
I noticed the other day that Sav-on drugstores sells 2-one gallon bottles of 38% sulfuric acid for pool acid for 3.99. Thats not bad! Very strange though I thought only HCL was used for pool acid. Anyways, good buy at savons!

tmp
February 27th, 2004, 02:53 PM
Local sources for H2SO4:

Lowe's - Roebic Drain Flow Blended Sulfuric Acid Drain Opener
MSDS from: http://www.roebic.com indicates 90% strength

Ace Hardware - Rooto Corp. Professional Drain Opener
No MSDS found at: http://www.rootocorp.com

atlas#11
March 7th, 2004, 09:33 PM
I just bought a gallon of that rooto stuff for 20 USD so it's pretty cheap by comparison. A good tip when shopping for new stuff is to bring a small but bright light so you can shine it through the containers to see if their colored. Rooto appears a dark brown but I havent poured any yet so I cannot really tell. Of course it usualy will tell you but mine didn't and it being colored is a real inconvinience but as long as it works I can't complain(shit, at 20 bucks a gal. I could use I for what it was intended :rolleyes: ).

Scratch that, I poured some and it is just light brown and thick beautiful oil of vitrol. Looked brown because the lid had been stained dark brown and the liquid looked darker than it wass with poor lighting. That should keep me in buisness for a while. BTW, is this brand avalible in all ace stores? the one I was in was in lake havisue(good times :D ), and I havent looked localy.

Begste
March 8th, 2004, 01:20 PM
Why do you use a distillation setup?
You don't need to collect the H2O.

Because you can get weak stuff, but you have to boil it down till its real concentrated.

xALmoN
March 31st, 2004, 09:32 AM
I tried boiling down car battery water. Either i bought the wrong stuff, or it was really really diluted. i gave up boiling when i saw that more than 95% of the volume had boiled off and still no white fumes. i decided it wasn't worth my effort.

Time to try looking for drain cleaners like the rest of you all use. By the way, i'm from singapore. i believe i'm the only asian from an asian country here.?

Bert
March 31st, 2004, 10:46 AM
I tried boiling down car battery water. Either i bought the wrong stuff, or it was really really diluted. i gave up boiling when i saw that more than 95% of the volume had boiled off

Car battery water? It sounds like you've ben boiling distilled water. By definition, there should be nothing left when you're done... Yes, indeed, you've bought the wrong stuff. Better go do some more reading before you try anything else, you don't seem to have a very good understanding of what you're trying to do.

xALmoN
April 1st, 2004, 12:53 AM
I guess so. off to do more reading. =)

Orpheus
April 1st, 2004, 10:52 PM
You can buy Sulphuric Acid at any pool shop. Min. 340g/L.

xALmoN
April 4th, 2004, 05:00 AM
The problem with my country is that the government bans everything. The battery shops around in my country all say the same thing. "It is illegal to sell car battery acid." They said it was because in the 1970s when secret societies were rampant, they used to buy that to throw into rival gang members faces during gangfights.

Doubt there are any pool shops in my area anyway. Haven't tried looking for drain cleaners yet, will try when I get the time. ;) hope I can find that stuff and the government hasnt banned it yet. BTW, I'm from singapore, anyone heard of it.?

Mendeleev
April 26th, 2004, 09:58 PM
I mentioned earlier in this thread that I had access to at least four sulfuric acid drain cleaners: here they are. The two outer ones are from Lowes, and the two inner ones are from ACE Hardware. The far right one sucks, it has "12 buffers" it turned my picric acid brown and gave me shitty yields. The far left one, I have not yet tested. The two middle ones are much better, less brown, less impurities, and the liquid fire gave me good yields on picric acid, and kept it a nice fluffy yellow color. It also worked for nitroglycerin.

xALmoN
May 3rd, 2004, 05:53 AM
I have not been able to find any acid drain cleaners/openers in where i stay. :mad: very pissing, having trouble with finding anything in my country and all, my only route now is car batteries.

aikon
May 3rd, 2004, 06:48 AM
...my only route now is car batteries.

Before you mess around with car batteries you can try to find a company doing electroplating. They use sulfuric and nitric acids in large amounts. There're also people who are "hobby electroplaters". Maybe you are one of tho
se guys:)

FinnBell
May 4th, 2004, 02:49 AM
I have tried a couple of OTC sulfuric acids (both drain openers) the first one was that grey bottle (the very left one) on the pic of the four drain openers and that one seemed to me that it really didnt work for my stuff. The other one I tried was that rooto one and it seemed much clearer. I'm still not sure of either one though. I havent tried the liquid fire yet. I'll go get some tomorrow morning and give it a shot. But has anyone had any good experiences with Roebic or the Rooto stuff?

al93535
May 4th, 2004, 07:36 AM
I have been using up quite a bit of h2so4, so I decided to try NAPA auto parts, and am glad I did! I got 5 gallons 37% for 14.99!! Extremely pure nice and clear! That will be 1.85 gallons pure 98% h2so4, $8.10 for a gallon! Better then the sulfuric pool acid which has some impurities. Also, a coffee pot directly on top of an electric hot plate gets it to 98% in about 5 hours.

FinnBell
May 4th, 2004, 01:58 PM
5 hours? Now, I have never actually boiled acid down so I really dont know. But five hours seems a bit much. At what temperature are you talking? Just boil until you see the white fumes right?

xALmoN
May 4th, 2004, 11:18 PM
I guess he took 5 hours or so because a coffee pot does not really boil, it just keeps it hot. Thats if al93535 and I are talking about the same coffee pot on hotplate.

Ah, and I live in an asian country where those hardware shop owners speak little or no english, which is very hard for me to communicate with them because I'm quite bad with chinese. And the car parts dealers still refuse to sell me battery acid. I can't even get acetone in this damn place except in nail polish which is full of other shit. Pretty sad huh..

aikon
May 5th, 2004, 06:08 AM
...I can't even get acetone in this damn place except in nail polish which is full of other shit. Pretty sad huh..

There's a detailed instruction for extracting acetone from nail polish floating around on the www.rhodium.ws website, if I'm not wrong.
You can also have a look at www.the-hive.ws.
I've never treid to extract acetone from nail polish, but acetone should be available in the paint section of your hardware store.

al93535
May 5th, 2004, 08:05 PM
No in fact I do not boil the acid. I use a hot plate used to cook on with temperature control, and it is quite capable of boiling. I fill the coffee pot up and if it boils it goes over. I turn it on until a few bubbles come up then I adjust the heat to keep it there. I use the hot plate from a coffee machine to distill my nitric acid, however.

xALmoN
May 7th, 2004, 02:57 AM
There's a detailed instruction for extracting acetone from nail polish floating around on the www.rhodium.ws website, if I'm not wrong.
You can also have a look at www.the-hive.ws.
I've never treid to extract acetone from nail polish, but acetone should be available in the paint section of your hardware store.

ah.. thanks for the links. oh and little mistake over there. its nail polish remover.. has lotsa unwanted stuff in it. I'll look in the paint shops. but as those paint shop owners know little english. I doubt they have any idea what acetone is.. I'll have to look up the chinese names for acetone first. headache. now I regret not learning my chinese properly.

Hungry Ghost
November 29th, 2004, 11:45 PM
I've just tried some roebic's for NC using KNO3. Except for some tiny flashes before the NC smoldered out, it was a complete failure. No NO2 (I was careful to add everything slowly) but some wisps of white fumes were visible. Fustrated, I poured some acid onto some sugar trying to recreate the popular high school demo of the mountain of carbon emerging from the dehydrated sucrose. Nothing. The website states it's "temperature controlled to 180F" so I'm tempted to blame the inhibitors for my failure.

Has anyone else had any experience with roebic's?

mikemikev
January 10th, 2005, 12:14 AM
One way to make H2SO4 is the way it was first produced. This is the high temperature destructive distillation of sulphate salts, such as copper sulphate, in clay retorts, bubbling the produced gases into water. High temperatures are required, such as a charcoal fire with bellows.

penguin6636
January 13th, 2008, 05:05 PM
I've always heard that it is best to boil down charged battery acid opposed to dead or uncharged. I know charged battery acid is denser than uncharged, yielding a higher concentration of acid. I boil down some battery electrolyte I purchased from battery shop and it’s turned out to already be ~31%. How much more concentrated would it be if I charged it first and then boiled it down? Would that just be a waste of time?

PeterB2
January 15th, 2008, 12:37 AM
If you get it right from the battery, there's going to be contamination from lead compounds mixed with the acid (mostly lead dioxide). Charging the battery reverses the chemical reaction changing the lead dioxide back to lead. Thus charging it increases the concentration and allows for a purer product (I don't think you want lead in nitrations, etc.)

Alexires
January 15th, 2008, 03:40 AM
How much more concentrated would it be if I charged it first and then boiled it down? Would that just be a waste of time?

I assume you are talking about just buying the acid from the battery place then trying to concentrate it via electrolysis.

In short, no, you can't just buy H2SO4, toss it in an electrolysis chamber and get H2SO4.

Perhaps you might like to UTFSE and investigate how batteries are charged, and the accompanying half equations. That might answer your question..... Using the search term "battery half equation" in google will yield you a result that you would be able to extrapolate your answer from.

penguin6636
January 15th, 2008, 02:56 PM
Actually I was considering charging a battery and then draining the charged acid, boil it down, fill the battery and start over.

According to this (http://roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?p=66175) thread "if you charge the car battery before you extract the acid then you'll get acid of a higher concentration and purity." The thread never goes on to discuss how much more advantageous it is to charge the acid first, hence my question. But thanks for the added info, I'm sure it will help with my research.

totenkov
January 16th, 2008, 12:53 AM
I highly doubt the concentration would go up more that 4-5%

Alexires
January 16th, 2008, 05:53 AM
Thank god for that. I actually thought that you were asking if you could just concentrate it by electrolysing Sulphuric Acid without adding anything else.... oh wait. You were.

Perhaps I am reading your post wrong. If so, forgive me. If not, read on.

You need to have the basic elements to make the sulphuric acid right? When you use a battery, it converts sulphuric acid into lead sulphate, amongst other things. When you charge it, you convert the lead sulphate (plus other stuff) into sulphuric acid. If you try to electrolyse sulphuric acid and there is no lead sulphate and misc. by-products, then nothing will happen. You will either get nothing, or make hydrogen.

You wont be able to just fill the battery with acid you've bought and have it increase its concentration. As I said, you need to understand how lead acid batteries work. Without the lead sulphate, you will not be able to charge the battery and get sulphuric acid.

In short, boil down the acid you buy to refill batteries, or boil down charged battery acid. Don't throw the acid into a battery, charge it, then boil it. That is a waste of time and money.

Silent Freedom
February 8th, 2008, 10:13 PM
I use the one on Mendeleev's picture (it is the far right one). It works ok but I would not know for sure because I have not tried anything different. It makes nitric fine. When I made my nitro starch and gun cotton it worked fine but they left alot of carbon after burning and it turned both a nasty looking brown. And Mendeleev, the one on the left of the picture someone tried to use on a pyro website and they said it did not work.

Emil
March 15th, 2008, 07:04 PM
I use a drain cleaner which works great for most nitrations and for producing nitric acid, and contains 91% Sulfuric acid.

I checked the MSDS and it says that it is a pure acid which just contains the acid and dye (pink), no other buffers or junk.

However the other day, I saw another type of drain cleaner which I hadn't seen before. Interested I picked the bottle up and had a browse at the contents (like you do). I was quite suprised to see that it is 94% sulfuric acid. The only thing which I am questioning is the fact it states that it is an inhibited acid.

I am looking to perform a few tests with it soon myself, but in the mean time I was just wondering if it is worth my time, or is an inhibited acid rendered pretty much useless for chemistry??

I can't find an MSDS on the drain cleaner,and it isn't a big name brand so I'm not quite sure exactly what the other 6% is. It looks pretty clear and uncontaminated, but looks can be very decieving.

Lets say the acid is completely useless due to this inhibitor, would it be possible to purify it during a distillation at reduced pressure??

I'm really just interested to experiment around with it a bit to find out a few things, I'm not planning on using it as my default acid.

Shadowmartyr
March 23rd, 2008, 07:07 PM
The two middle ones are much better, less brown, less impurities, and the liquid fire gave me good yields on picric acid, and kept it a nice fluffy yellow color. It also worked for nitroglycerin.

I can agree with you about the "Liquid Fire" brand, I also got mine at an ACE Hardware store but I forget how much I think it was $6 for a medium sized bottle, it gave me good yields in an ETN synth.

Charles Owlen Picket
March 24th, 2008, 11:56 AM
Quite frankly these will change from year to year & perhaps even from month to month as they are industry surplus acids and depending upon what the original supplier did with them, will determine the content impurities. The dark (black) acids generally come from the plating or metal related industries. The clearer acids can come from chemical oriented companies, etc.

The levels of impurities may be equal even in those ones that looks awful. By boiling the dark crap the residual materials will often settle to the bottom and the result will be a clear 98% (when you see wisps of white from the boil & let it alone to cool). If you can only get a dark variant, the material that colors it is in suspension and boiling will allow it to drop out and settle. in reality this is only important if you really need H2SO4 for a synthesis in & of itself. For a "mixed acid" nitration; I actually don't think it matters. At one time the re-cycling of acids was so common and complete that there was solid waste needing disposal from various plants.

Emil
March 24th, 2008, 06:22 PM
Yes I tried a little experiment last night, just trying to purify my sulphuric acid.

I placed 100ml in my distilling rig and heated under a vacuum. Nothing much seemed to be happening but this hardly suprised me due to the high boiling point and the fact my vacuum pump is playing me up. (Nothing serious just in need of a good cleaning on the valves).

After about 10 minutes of heating I decided to just finish the experiment.
The acid had changed colour, from a bright pink to a slighty clearer suttle red.

I really gained from this that it is just not worth the bother. Like Charles said. It doesn't really make to much of a difference with nitrations and such.

The drain cleaner which I mentioned earlier in the thread (containing the inhibiter), looks like it could just do with a good filter more than anything else. It's reasonably clear but has little black bits floating through it.

Jetex Kid
March 25th, 2008, 11:59 PM
Yes I tried a little experiment last night, just trying to purify my sulphuric acid.

I placed 100ml in my distilling rig and heated under a vacuum. Nothing much seemed to be happening but this hardly suprised me due to the high boiling point and the fact my vacuum pump is playing me up. (Nothing serious just in need of a good cleaning on the valves).



Of course sulfuric concentration is possible, but probably not worth the effort for forum members. The SA azeotrope is around 95%, i.e., until that purity, you concentrate it by boiling off liquid which is more water than SA. At 95%, SA boiling point is about 300*C at atmospheric pressure and ~150*C at ~760mm vacuum. Hence battery or pool acids (~20%?) will be difficult to concentrate.

Purification is another matter. I just bought a liter of stuff that looks like it has been squirted by a squid, but I understand it does not appear in the final product.

Jabir ibn Hayyan
April 7th, 2008, 04:03 PM
We all know that car batteries contain sulfuric acid, and we all know that car batteries cost much too much money, and so we all know that the only other solution would be to make our own sulfuric acid, or to buy it from some remote chemical supply wherehouse. Well I have a proposal, it's a method I have been developing, and improving for quite some time, and I have found it to work and to be effective every time it is put to use. The problem is that you need to have guts to do it, you need to be smart enough to know when to stop while your ahead, you need to stay calm at all times, and you also need to be able to handle staying up into the late hours of the night.

If you have a car at home open up the hood and take a look at the engine. If you can see it there is a black cable just encompassing the underside edges of the car's body. This cable should be as close to the front of the car as possible, just resting delicately above the grill, and then continuing all the way to the rear, and protruding into the interior of the drivers side of the vehicle. If you still can't find out where this cable is, have a friend go into the front seat of the car, and have him pull the hood release lever. The black cable that moves is the cable that you are looking for.

Close the hood, and stick your fingers into the front grill of the vehicle. This is best done with a car with very widely spaced grills, all cars have different grills, new and old models, and a lot of them have big enough holes to stick your fingers in, these are the best cars to demonstrate on if you can find them, always keep an eye out for them as they are actually extremely common. If the separations in the grill are too tightly fitted, then grab a clothes hanger and improvise an effective hook that will fit through the holes in the grill (this method requires much more skill). Try to remember where the cable was, can you feel it? If you can, pull it as hard as you can until you can see it coming down from above. Hold the cable in place, and make sure that you can still see it through the grill.

(These previous steps were meant to familiarize the learner with the cable, and how to easily locate it from the exterior of the vehicle. These next steps cause slight damage to the vehicle, and should not be performed on any vehicle that the reader intends to take good care of. The following steps can be preformed on a car the reader is emotionally comfortable, but not necessarily morally comfortable, with damaging.)

You can now use any source of heat to melt through a small portion of the cable wherever you like. You can use matches, a propane torch, a thin metal rod with a bit cotton on the end, a flex neck lighter etc. Soon you will realize that there is a steel wire underneath the black rubber that you have just melted through. Once the metallic wire has become visible, and the black rubber tube that was surrounding it has melted away, you can use any source of projected water to douse the flame. You can use a squeezey water bottle, a water gun with a plentiful stream, a bladder with a small hole in it etc. Now that you have removed a portion of the outer rubber encasing, and doused the flame, you may pull on the entire cable once more. What happens? Need I say more?

Under no circumstances am I responsible for car battery theft or damage to any licensed and inspected motor vehicle. This post was for informational purposes only. Car battery theft should never be attempted by any individual at any time, and it is a violation of federal and civil law. Do not attempt to reenact any of the procedures mentioned in this post, or in any other posts related to this topic.

tomu
April 11th, 2008, 04:03 AM
Well, I suggest an even easier method. Just go to the next scrapyard and you get all the battery acid you want, they just dispose off the acid of old car batteries.

Emil
April 11th, 2008, 10:27 AM
Jabir ibn Hayyan:

It's good that you've been thinking about new ways to obtain such given materials, however the method you proposed would be damn right stupid to actually carry out. (I'm not sure if you were being serious or just in more of a fantasy perspective).

For anyone to put themself at such a risk, for such a highly used industrial material at such a low grade, would be completely unescessary. Beings that you would be facing possible jail time for obtaining a low quantity and quality of material, when one could go and purchase it through other means renders this method useless.

Like tomu said, if you were going to try and obtain it like this, at least go to the scrap yard and take it legally from their rubbish bin.

Either that or buy the batteries that they sell there, for a fraction of the price of a new one. Cars that don't get completely totaled still have their batteries intact and without damage. A scrap yard near me retrieves all the decent batteries from their vechiles they scrap, and sell them on for a few £.

It's personally not a route that interests me what so ever, but beings that so many of you insist on this route for what ever reason, it could probably be an ok possibility for some. I understand some people can have real problems getting hold of some chemicals, and especially what prices they can do so at. It differs from country to country I find. I recall reading in the other Sulfuric acid post that one of our australian members can buy something like 20L of 98% H2SO4 for like $40 :eek: !!
For that price I can basically get like 2 litres of 91% lol...

JohnG
April 11th, 2008, 10:42 AM
Stealing car batteries just for the acid inside?? :rolleyes: You have got to be kidding me, what a waste of time. Lets keep in mind the RTPB: KISS - keep it simple stupid.

I usually go the drain cleaner route, although I did once try battery acid way. You can buy gallons at most auto supply stores (NAPA, etc), If I recall I bought 5 gallons for only $20. Its only about 30% concentrated, and takes literally HOURS to boil down to proper concentration. Also don't forget that if you drain the acid from batteries it is going to be contaminated with lead & who knows what else.

Jabir ibn Hayyan
April 11th, 2008, 08:17 PM
I suppose you could look at it that way, but it depends on who you are. It depends on your character, your personality, and the things that you may or may not have already done in your life. It depends on how comfortable or uncomfortable you would be with doing something like that. Your character decides these things for you, and for whatever reason I have made the decision to break the laws of my life in order to obtain what I need. Though it is often looked down upon, my mind conceives theft as a reliable option to acquire the materials that I consider important. Jail is a possibility, but it is also a probability. Risks considered, and consequences acknowledged, I have made the decision break the law because I have trust in myself to accomplish the task correctly.

I don't look at this as just some stupid fantasy, I look at this as a business. In a business making profit is all about weighing the pros and the cons. There are cars all around us, and the quantity of the material that is available is what makes the profit satisfactory. We have all done something illegal by being a part of this community. The manufacture of improvised explosives and weapons may not be as extreme as stealing a car battery, but none the less in most cases it is still against the law. This is not an option for everyone, I just wanted to inform others that this option is still available, and possible. It’s quite alright to think it’s funny because when you actually think about it it’s really quite ridiculous, but that doesn’t make it any less effective in the long run.

Salvage yards and drain cleaners are always an option, and by all means you should take advantage of them when they are available, but if your local hardware stores shelf drain cleaners with several unwanted active ingredients, and if all the battery acid you get from the scrapyard has converted to lead sulfate and water, then at least you still have a choice to make. Weather or not you decide to do this is not a negotiation that you have with others, it is a negotiation that you are going to have with yourself.

megalomania
April 15th, 2008, 05:50 AM
That has got to be one of the most eloquently written posts about a kewl idea I have ever read on The Forum... I get this mental picture of a post apocalyptic world like Dark Angel with the starving masses stripping cars for remnants of power :)

I think we get the point about where car batteries can be found. I would be very pissed if some shithead damaged my car and stole my battery since that means I have to pay to get a new one, and I can't drive to where I was going. I bet you're one of those people with a sawzall cutting off people's catalytic converters too.

The spirit of this thread is what different sources of sulfuric acid can be had. Batteries are page 1, so lets move on.

Nitronium Soup
April 16th, 2008, 11:56 AM
I have had a bottle of Roebic Drainflow Blended Sulfuric Acid drain opener in my cabinet for some time after purchasing it at Lowe’s and decided it wasn’t pure enough to do bubkus with. It is rather thick and dyed black to ‘easily find spills and splatters.’ I decided I wanted to try to cook some of the water out and hopefully destroy some of the impurities.

I poured 100mL of the drain opener into a 400mL beaker and set it on a hotplate for about two hours. At about 180 ºC it began to give off white fumes. I tried going for 338 ºC, or at least 290 ºC to get to 95%, but I think my hotplate crapped out on me at 230 ºC after an hour. I let it cook at this temperature for another hour. It was giving off fumes pretty heavily at this point, but still sludge-like.

Disappointed, I decided to cool it down to RT, stick it on a stir plate with a stir bar, and added 25g KNO3. Once that was dissolved, I transferred the solution to a 100 mL round bottom flask. I attached this to a vacuum distillation rig, with a 6in condenser and 50mL round bottom collection flask. I put this on a heating mantle at a medium level and applied moderate vacuum with a water aspirator.

Yellow HNO3 began to condense over at 42 ºC. After about 45 minutes a copious amount of NO2 began to come over and the temperature spiked. I decided to pull the tube off the aspirator and stop the distillation at this point.


My nitric acid ended up a mild orange color, but what surprised me is the H2SO4/KNO3 solution was now about the same mild orange color. There was a tiny amount of what appears to be soot, the remnants of the dye I’m assuming. My guess is I am left with mostly H2SO4, some K2SO4, a trivial amount of HNO3, and 4-10% water content. I will most likely reuse it to try to squeeze more nitric acid out of KNO3. I don’t know if the fact that I cleared up the solution is useful, but the turbid drain cleaner works absolutely fine for distilling nitric acid, and honestly that’s about all it seems good for.

Jabir ibn Hayyan
April 16th, 2008, 12:44 PM
Ok... :( It's a k3wl Idea... I've just been doing it because it’s free, and because I'm on the watch list... :( I suppose it also makes me feel like I’m special like MacGyver or something too. Oh well, hopefully I can make up for it by posting different option for obtaining sulfuric acid. Thank you Mega for complimenting my rant, sort of, and if it’s any consolation I always try to do these sort of things in rich neighborhoods where security is laxed and criminal activity is unheard of. I like to think that maybe I’m just balancing the economy, I suppose I view myself as a sort of new age Robin Hood or something, and I guess if it really was a post apocalyptic world, I would at least have electricity in my bunker. Anyway, Mega is right, moving on…
So we have mentioned drain cleaners, hobby electroplaters, mower repair shops, hopefully no one has mentioned this option yet but you can also get very nice grade sulfuric acid at photo supply, and darkroom supply stores. I have quite a few in my neighborhood. Though they may be a bit esoteric in most other communities, they are an effective source of all sorts of chemicals including potassium dichromate, sodium hydroxide, acetic anhydride, formaldehyde, sodium azide and even laboratory grade diethylene glycol. If you don’t have a photo supply shop in your neighborhood, well then there is a whole catalog of better ideas on obtaining sulfuric acid posted on all the pages before this one. Also the MSDS archives are an amazing source that can help you find all sorts of chemicals that you might be looking for. The archives list the product name, all of its active ingredients, and the company that manufactures them. It’s a great way to find a number of rare and unexplored sources of sulfuric acid. http://siri.org/msds/index.php

Charles Owlen Picket
April 16th, 2008, 01:32 PM
Ok... :( It's a k3wl Idea... I've just been doing it because it’s free, and because I'm on the watch list...
...... and if it’s any consolation I always try to do these sort of things in rich neighborhoods where security is laxed and criminal activity is unheard of. I like to think that maybe I’m just balancing the economy, I suppose I view myself as a sort of new age Robin Hood or something........

What "watch list" are you on?

When I was a lot younger I lived in a car....I have a little job at a factory....someone living with their parents or in a small flat was viewed are quite well off...were they "living in a rich neighborhood"? And if so did they DESERVE to have their "economy balanced" by my hand?
MY point here is that NO ONE should be the judge of who needs to suffer misfortune due to circumstantial observations. Because one person sees another as being "RICH" do they need to suffer?
When someone does you HARM is when a thinking man should consider recompense.....Only then. To do so otherwise invites disaster.

In Cambodia they killed those who had "an education" because they wore glasses.....Arbitrary diagnosis of societal ills based on superfluous phenomenon is fraught with misinterpretation.....

megalomania
April 17th, 2008, 12:43 AM
Maybe the pricks who park their giant SUV's or sportscars at an angle taking up two spots in the parking lot, right up front too, do deserve misfortune...

Charles Owlen Picket
April 17th, 2008, 10:46 AM
Maybe the pricks who park their giant SUV's or sportscars at an angle taking up two spots ....

Within this example we have an obvious a-hole who wants more than his share of spots.... (bang! Screech!) Justice is served!
There was a fuck who parked on the sidewalk (I shit you not) blocking the way into a store. I was watching and a guy in a chair (wheelchair) was just kicking back in the shade waiting for this clown. I don't know what happened but I'll bet the guy spoke his mind. Or perhaps he was waiting for ME to split so HE could cut the fuck's tires!

Obvious A-holes are a different story of course. .....There, the issue is one of "can it be done well"?

The way I see it, the whole mess of "revenge" is tinged with pitfalls. I would have little qualms about slashing the tires of a shit-for-brains...but I won't go to court for that little escapade....Because HE isn't worth my court time.

Lewis
April 18th, 2008, 02:00 AM
I'm sure it's been mentioned already, but I need to stress the ease of which good, pure clean H2SO4 can be obtained from auto stores. Car batteries are everywhere, and so are the means to refill them.

Stores like NAPA will gladly sell anyone a gallon of 35% sulfuric in distilled water for thirty bucks, last I checked. The price may be a little steep to anyone who is used to just buying the drain cleaner, but where I come from sulfuric drain cleaners have long since gone off the market. Besides, with the battery electrolyte you KNOW you're getting a pure product that need only be boiled for a ready to go, lab grade reagent.

DetaDude
April 18th, 2008, 02:31 PM
I finally got tired of dirty acid (SA & NA) so I decided to play around with an ozone generator that I had made a good many years ago, and low and behold you would be surprised what it will oxidize out of acid.

My next step is to hook the ozone generator to a reclaimed oxygen concentrator and see what happens. After some more testing I'll report back.

megalomania
April 18th, 2008, 04:22 PM
My local auto parts store has 50% sulfuric acid in distilled water. Indeed you know you are getting a high purity product, which can actually be worth the price. This acid is sold to refill motorcycle batteries, at least that is why my dad always bought the stuff for. I think because he wintered his bike the battery needed to be drained, stored, and refilled with fresh acid.

Alexires
April 20th, 2008, 08:53 AM
Hey can you get a brand new lead acid battery for free?

Perhaps this is what you should have written

"Hey, can you ban me because I'm a stupid idiot asking to be spoonfed"

You were lucky to make it past your first k3wl idea, but only by the grace of God (Mega). This time I don't think you will be so lucky.

Nitronium Soup
April 22nd, 2008, 11:41 AM
I went to town yesterday and obtained 6 1L battery refill packs, 3 each from Advance Auto Parts and Autozone, $4.98 plus tax. The concentration isn't listed, but I'd have to assume approximately 34%. $15 a liter plus whatever cost you use to heat it (I use electric, essentially free for me) is nothing to shake a stick at. For essentially limitless supply (just go to various different car stores) and generally no questions asked (if anything, the ambiguous 'science fair' always works), I think this is the way to go.

I've heard NAPA has it by the 5 gallon, but I haven't checked.

If I can still find drain opener, I will likely still use that for nitric distillation because it's cheaper and already concentrated. For my purposes (large amounts of guncotton for theatrical effects) I don't care about any impurities which could possibly distill over.

FlamingPope
July 28th, 2008, 12:01 AM
Used battery acid is often of low concentration because if the battery is dead there will be much more water than acid. I buy 5 gallons of battery electrolyte from the auto parts store for $12.00. This will yield about 1.6 gallons of conc. H2SO4.
I have found that it must be heated for about 15 minutes after dense white fumes start to come off. The best way to check this is by weighing it and measuring the density or using a hydrometer. The density should be 1.834 grams down.

As a side note when heating:
Use only one container, unless your using a fire to heat it. Apparently if you place two containers of H2SO4 on a hotplate; these block the heat given off, so in between the containers is a pocket of cooler air. From experiences the fumes will come out and travel into the pocket of cool air and condense back on the flask. Normally this wouldn't be a problem on a fire but destroys hotplates.

So learn from my bad experiences, use ONE container when heating. (also don't pour any more acid in while heating, this is just an accident ready to happen)

JamieBond
August 9th, 2008, 03:26 PM
B&Q sell "One Shot Drain Cleaner" that is 91% W/W (with water) Sulfuric Acid. They sell it in store and online. It retails for just under £8 for 1L. I'm sure this has already been said somewhere in this thread, but at least now you have a visual of what you are looking for. Helpful to someone, maybe?

http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/6152/09082008110mp7.th.jpg (http://img186.imageshack.us/my.php?image=09082008110mp7.jpg) http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/1853/09082008111ts9.th.jpg (http://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=09082008111ts9.jpg) http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/9869/09082008112tc8.th.jpg (http://img523.imageshack.us/my.php?image=09082008112tc8.jpg) http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/9652/09082008113tc7.th.jpg (http://img413.imageshack.us/my.php?image=09082008113tc7.jpg)

Sorry about the quality of the pictures, they have been taken with my phone.

ChippedHammer
August 11th, 2008, 03:31 AM
I gave up and just ordered 10L from a scientific supplier, $5 a litre for pure product.

iHME
August 15th, 2008, 03:09 PM
I purchased some sulfuric acid as battery acid today 4,95 eur for 1l.
Interestingly I had to separately ask for it on a counter but then they happily provided me with 1l bottle, no questions asked.
It is interesting tough that they put the bottle in a ziploc bag and put the barcode sticker on the bag.
I wonder why they did that?
It is beautifully clear liquid with marked specific gravity (correct term?) of 1,27g/cm3 @20 degrees Celsius.
I haven't calculated the concentration yet.

Cobalt.45
September 17th, 2008, 10:30 PM
Used battery acid is often of low concentration because if the battery is dead

The "trick" here, is to charge the battery before salvaging the acid. A slow charge (1 amp is ideal) is preferred to a fast charge, although it can take a day or so to do, depending. More on charging here: http://www.batterystuff.com/tutorial_battery.html

This serves two purposes: First, the acid will be the most concentrated.

Second, the condition of each cell can then be determined with a hydrometer. "Eye dropper"-style hydrometers are CHEAP at parts stores, etc.- but having a good one might serve you much better (see reason below:cool:).

The importance of checking w/a hydrometer is that usually only one or two cells have failed- and will show a low specific gravity. DON'T use the acid from those cells, only from cells that read at or near the fully charged SG.

Don't read the condition after water has been added, only before. If the water is too low to easily pull up into the hydrometer to test "pre-charge", tip the battery so that the water is accessible.

So now you have your hard-won but rather dilute H2SO4. You boil it down to concentrate it. But how will you know WTF you REALLY have, when all's said and done?

You measure your concentrated acid w/the nice, somewhat expensive (~$10-$15) hygrometer you bought for selecting which batteries to steal, err, buy from the junkyard!

But, it only reads to, say, 1.6 or so. What to do?

By now, you've might have surmised that by carefully measuring out a given quantity of acid, then diluting it by a precisely known amount (2:1 water:acid for strong acid, then multiply by 3 the percentage from the SG/% chart), you can measure the SG of the boiled down acid w/the battery hydrometer.

Obviously, this works w/H2SO4 no matter the source. Just change dilution ratios to suit the estimated strength of the acid to keep it within the range of the hygrometer.

While I've not needed to do it, you could use the battery hydrometer to determine the SG of many liquids (depending on compatibility of the material it's made of) by using the same scheme.

Pretty cool?:)

Tom1088
November 26th, 2008, 06:17 PM
Just been looking at that "One Shot Drain Cleaner". Looks like good stuff - it contains 1,2-dichlorobenzene as well as your 91% sulfuric acid. It would seem the boiling point of 1,2-dichlorobenzene is about 180°C and the sulfuric acid boils at about 330-340°C so you can separate them with little trouble. It doesn't say anything about it containing water but then again only hazardous materials tend to be listed. If it does contain water you all should know what water boils at.... If you want to keep the 1,2-dichlorobenzene for one reason or another you could do a fractional distillation and when the temp of the vapour jumps you're done.

FUTI
November 27th, 2008, 10:06 AM
Crap... 1,2-dichlorobenzene can be sulfonated (although poorly) during heating and product(s) can't be separated from H2SO4, but you could add some water to that and evaporate it. Hopefully that crap will distill with water vapor. Crappy job if you have to do it just to make your H2SO4. How much of that organic junk you have inside that OTC product according to MSDS?