polyisobutylene

[bonnsgeo]

hi.

So, i do this new topic because i have the feeling that nobody have ever seen polyisobutylene... :) (like me !)

i just would like to know what is polyisobutylene because i have a mastic for plumbers (and i know it contains pib , it was writen on the box) and i dissolved it in gazoline. i would like to know what pib is ? is it a liquid ? a powder ? pib will dissolve in gazoline or not ??

please describe me pure pib.

thx.
i did a lot of researchs on the forum and on the Web, i didnt found anything.

[probity]

Polyisobutylene is an elastomer that is gas impermeable.

[kingspaz]

what the hell? can you try using easier to understand words for the non english people here? they do try hard but i can barely understand what you're saying and i'm english!
gas impermeable? dunno what the hell you mean by that but PIB IS soluble in petrol. that is how its extracted from the filler in blu tack and other such things.

[probity]

How else will they expand their vocabulary? By seeing it used and then looking the definition up.

"Polyisobutylene is a synthetic rubber, or elastomer. It is special because it is that only rubber that is gas impermeable, that is, it is the only rubber which can hold air for long periods of time. You may have noticed that balloons will go flat after a few days. This is because they are made of polyisoprene, which is not gas impermeable. Because polyisobutylene will hold air, it is used to make things like the inner liner of tires, and the inner liners of basketballs. "

Better?

[bonnsgeo]

ok kingspaz.
because a friend (stanfield on this forum) did that : he dissolved our mastic (we have the same) for plumbers in gazoline.

then he filtrated the solution and he obtained a grey powder (the filler ?)and a liquid (gazoline (+ pib ?)) brown.
then he added diethyl_adipate and motor oil to the gazoline and he did the same with the powder .
with the gazoline nothing happen , but with powder he obtained a plastic ... !

thats why its strange for me ! i believed too that pib dissolve in gazoline but ... this experience is bizarre.
so i dont know what is really pib .. a powder non soluble in petrol (its strange because kipe explain we need petrol to make c4), or a liquid ?

for the moment i let evaporate my brown solution (gazoline + a thing) and i ll see.

bye
PS: oh ... and i visited the Exxon site, they sale pib and its a white-brown solution ... bizarre ... bizarre ...maybe its gazoline with pib

<small>[ August 10, 2002, 04:50 AM: Message edited by: bonnsgeo ]</small>

[stanfield]

yeah, I dissolved my PIB in a mix of toluene + unleaded gazoline (why both ? I answer : why not ?) Then I filtered the solution. In the filter paper, there was a grey-white powder. To this powder I added few ml of pure ethyl hexyl adipate and few drops of motor oil (15W40) I obtained a "modelable powder"... But now I have to test it with PETN and this frighten me because I don't want to loose it !

see ya !

<small>[ August 10, 2002, 07:12 AM: Message edited by: stanfield ]</small>

[bonnsgeo]

hmm ...stan ? i was thinking it was a plastic. A "modelable powder" is a very strange concept for me :) !

could u describe it precisely ? (maybe some photos ?)

bye

[stanfield]

yeah, it was relatively plastic but I didn't add the right amount of adipate and of course the PETN... so I will have to do this but I think it will work...

[bonnsgeo]

ok.
so try to do it with a little amount of petn (10 grams ! i know u have a lot of petn :) )
but your powder is suspicious... i obtain it too.
<a href="http://rdxmaster.free.fr/Image19.jpg" target="_blank">http://rdxmaster.free.fr/Image19.jpg</a> (not really good pic)
<a href="http://rdxmaster.free.fr/Image20.jpg" target="_blank">http://rdxmaster.free.fr/Image20.jpg</a> (the color of the powder on the photo is not far from the reality)

somebody know if it is pib ??

bye

[mongo blongo]

PIB is like rubber. It's usually white to a creamy colour. When you push two pieces of it together for about 1 min the two pieces will slowly amalgamate. The easy way go get PIB is from self-amalgamating tape used by plumbers.

[bonnsgeo]

mongo :) u are cool !

thank you for your answser ! i waited for a clear answser like this since a lot of time !

[bonnsgeo]

and i suppose to extract pib from tape:

you put it in gazoline,
then you filter,
then you let evaporate the gazoline and u obtian "pure" pib ? :rolleyes:

is there a lot of pib in this tape ? because its just "based on pib" , do you know the percentage ?

bye
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[xoo1246]

It's usually black and you stretch it before you use it. I belive there is a sheet between the tape layers to prevent the tape roll from fusing when it's still in the role(thus the stretching). The black color is due to carbon.

[bonnsgeo]

yes xoo.
i did some search on the web , you are right.
just a link to see what this tape is :
<a href="http://www.wppltd.demon.co.uk/WPP/Connectors__Cables___Tools/Wiring_Aids/wiring_aids.html" target="_blank">http://www.wppltd.demon.co.uk/WPP/Connectors__Cables___Tools/Wiring_Aids/wiring_aids. html</a> (at bottom of the page)

mongo could u explain your method to extract pib ?

ci@o

[DBSP]

I recognise the thing about tape with 2 layers between each actual layer of tape. I have a small role of it somewhere, so it's PIB, when you say it I notice the similarity. I'll see if I can find it later.

[bonnsgeo]

a patent for the self amalgamating tape.
5,914,371

somebody have an idea of the percentage of pib in the tape ? :confused:

bye

[mongo blongo]

The self amalgamating tape is practically PURE polyisobubtylene resin with some pigment and UV additives. It can be used like normal PIB for C4 but the resulting explosive will look a bit funky if it has a desperced pigment in it but it does the job. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
I am not sure of the viscosity of the PIB tape though. Medium viscosity PIB (M.w.100,000,Vistanex grade MM-L-100) is used for commercial C4 (from Cutefix) but from my tape I would *guess* that it is near medium viscosity.

[bonnsgeo]

ok cool mongo !

i bought 3 rolls of the amalgaming tape on farnell.com !!
<a href="http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1898.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1898.pdf</a>
i hope i ll receive the tape in a few time (48 h they said on the site)
the color of my c4 is not really important (even my c4 is pink its not a problem <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> )

ok so i just have to dissolve the tape in gazoline and that's all ? cool :)
did u succesfully use this to make "c4" (with petn or rdx) or its just something in your mind ?

bye and thx for all mongo. (really !)

[mongo blongo]

I tried it without the diethyl hexyl sebacate and it kind of worked but it was not very good. If you have the sebacate then I think it would work very well. Personally I much prefer the blu tack binder. Your C4 will be black which is quite cool. :)
P.S. I used the PIB tape from farnell (the same stuff that you will have). They also have some lab equipment. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

<small>[ August 11, 2002, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: mongo blongo ]</small>

[stanfield]

ok but pure PIB is white normally ?

[bonnsgeo]

ok mongo. cool.

i just finished my purchase of Bis(2-ethylhexyl)adipate 99% (250 grams)!!
(in my book of explosives the engineer say we can use adipate or sebacate without any difference) :)

so i hope make a real beautiful c4 the next week.... !

bye

[mongo blongo]

Stansfield-Yes but the tape has a very very small amount of black pigment so it's more or less pure. It is possible to remove it but it takes a lot of work which is not worth the bother. When I removed the pigment it took me a few days to get a just few g of light brown PIB. :mad:
Bonnsgeo- Good luck. :)

<small>[ August 11, 2002, 04:01 PM: Message edited by: mongo blongo ]</small>

[mongo blongo]

bonnsgeo- If you haven't seen it yet then have a look at this topic:

<a href="http://www.roguesci.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000557#000060" target="_blank">http://www.roguesci.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000557#000060</a>

Have a look at the post from cutefix about small scale lab C4 manufacture(4th post from the top). It's VERY good and that is how it's done commercially but on a larger scale and using vacuums for some processes etc. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[Ctrl_C]

I was looking around for PIB and accidentally found
this (http://www.homedepot.com/prel80/HDUS/EN_US/diy_main/pg_diy.jsp?CNTTYPE=NAVIGATION&CNTKEY=market%2fpg_zip_code.jsp&BV_SessionID=@@@@1271749847.1029123029@@@@&BV_EngineID=cccdad cfmdihlkfcgelceffdfgidgng.0&search_text=self%20amalgamating%20tape&DRC=4) (can't get link to format correctly, copy and paste link.)

I can't find anything about what it contains but I found <a href="http://lists.contesting.com/_towertalk/1996-September/000963.html" target="_blank">this testimonial</a> which I quote:

"It seems to take longer than 5 minutes to set - I'd
allow a couple of hours before disturbing the application, particularly if you
end up with a thick glob somewhere (it is a bit hard to control the thickeness
of the application because it tries to adhere to itself while it's still
liquid - if that makes any sense...). "

Sounds self amalgamating to me which means it probably contains a fair amount of PIB. I may run out to the store tomorrow and get some to experiment with.

[stanfield]

what a fucking link :) hehe !
but when I try to acess it, it says :

NSAPI Internal Error
error code = 100

see ya !

<small>[ August 12, 2002, 03:50 AM: Message edited by: stanfield ]</small>

[bonnsgeo]

hey, its funny i did nt see a table on my book :

i read:
explosive XTX 8003 (what a shitty name !) petn 80 % silicon rubber 20% it explodes at 7300 m/s ..i ll try ! (density = 1.53g/cm3)

an other explosive (no name) explodes between 7700 and 8200 m/s : petn 52 % (yes ! only 52 % :confused: :confused: ) , 36 % latex , 12 % EHA (adipate). (density = unknown)

this second explosive is really strange... its more powerful with a lower percentage of petn !

bye

[Ctrl_C]

in that case go to <a href="http://www.homedepot.com" target="_blank">www.homedepot.com</a> and search liquid electrical tape. damn weird ass formatted links...

[stanfield]

there is this one too : <a href="http://www.boatfix.com/catsections/646-650t.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.boatfix.com/catsections/646-650t.pdf</a>

but I didn't found the equivalent in french... damn !

[DBSP]

I tried dissolving my tape in gasoline but it didn't dissolve as blu-tack it only got much softer, is this as it suld be? fuck I'm tired.

Is the oil used in the C-4 there to soften the PIB in order for it be able to bind the RDX?

[kingspaz]

i was actually thinking of this this morning! oil is a not volatile long chain alkane. petrol being composed of alkanes will dissolve PIB. oil being of much greater chain length has trouble dissolving it be can atleast soften it. i think...

[mongo blongo]

When I dissolved my PIB in petrol it took a long time. You must do this BEFORE adding anything else. If yours is not working then you could try toluene.

[bonnsgeo]

DSBP, i think you should cut your tape in very little piece and to heat a little (40 degres celsius) the gazoline.

Mongo: the tape will totally dissolve or not ?

ci@o

[xoo1246]

It can take an hour even if you heat it.

[stanfield]

ok but finely powdered Polyisobutylene is easier to dissolve... that's for sure !

EDIT : And I personally use Toluene, PIB dissolve is few minutes ! But toluene stinks a lot and after plasticizing your explosive, the dogs could find it easier if you didn't evaporate all the toluene before...

EDIT [2] : But this only apply for a terrorist act... an I hope you're not this kind of guy.

<small>[ August 13, 2002, 05:06 AM: Message edited by: stanfield ]</small>

[mongo blongo]

bonnsgeo- It should compleatly dissolve.

[bonnsgeo]

ok.
normally i ll receive the tape today ... but i dont know what UPS is doing, i waked up at 8 o clock AM to receive my package :)

thx mongo.

stanfield: did you mix the mastic (for plumbers) with adipate to see what happen ?

bye

[stanfield]

he began more softly and adhesive...

[bonnsgeo]

thx stan.

f*ck UPS ! i didnt receive my package today !! sh*t !! :mad: :mad:

bye
EDIT:
Try to avoid very small, pointless posts in the future.

<small>[ August 13, 2002, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: zaibatsu ]</small>

[DBSP]

<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/PIB.JPG" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/PIB.JPG</a>
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/PIB2.JPG" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47804009/E&W/PIB2.JPG</a>

I started stirring the PIB today, allmost all gasoline had vapourized. It's very sticky and sofar it is still sticky allthough all gas is gone. I just took some gasoline straight out of my MC which means that there are 2% oil in the gasoline. This might be one of the reasons to the stickyness. Allthough straight PIB acts like this two but the undissloved pieces are still mouldable. I will try to find some more of this tape if I can.

[bonnsgeo]

your tape seems to be normal tape (electrical normal tape) .. :) maybe its the photo ..

but i think you should cover you box and the gazoline wont evaporate, the best thing is to use an hermetic box.

to buy more of amalgamating tape : <a href="http://www.farnell.com" target="_blank">www.farnell.com</a>

bye

EDIT:
DBSP: do you have adipate or sebecate ?

<small>[ August 13, 2002, 03:00 PM: Message edited by: bonnsgeo ]</small>

[DBSP]

The pic isn't very good but it is PIB tape. I wan't the gasoline to evapourate in order to see if any PIB was dissolved by the gasoline.

Farnell seemes to be a very nice place it sell in many countries as well, mine included.

[bonnsgeo]

yes, its a good site.Mongo gave me the URL.
the reference of the amalgaming tape is 703-3620, but its hard to find on their site.good luck. (and again thx mongo :) )

but i have the feeling that your tape didnt really dissolve (for me dissolve = "dissapear" in the gazoline).i have the feeling that your tape just became liquid...

[McGuyver]

I'm not to sure about that liquid electrical tape thing Ctrl_c. I've got some and I got an MSDS for it. It's a vinyl resin.

Here's the MSDS: <a href="http://hp9.wr.disa.mil:8001/msds/owa/web_msds.display?imsdsnr=182573" target="_blank">http://hp9.wr.disa.mil:8001/msds/owa/web_msds.display?imsdsnr=182573</a>

The CAS #'s aren't working for me.
It also has a stabilizer? Not sure....

[xoo1246]

Hmm, I don't know alot about plasticizers and such. But I belive I have found a source of pure PIB. It's a 5 gram tube containing what I belive is PIB in gasoline. The tube is found if bike repair kits and is used together with sheats of rubber to fix puctures. Here is an image.
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/PIB01.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/PIB01.jpg</a>
Maybe it isn't PIB, I don't know.

[McGuyver]

Your talking about rubber cement right? I'm pretty sure you are cause that's what's in my tube repair kit.

In one MSDS it says it contains natural rubber and synthetic rubber and in the other one: neoprene- check it out:

<a href="http://www.biosci.ohio-state.edu/~jsmith/MSDS/SANFORD%20--%20RUBBER%20CEMENT.htm" target="_blank">http://www.biosci.ohio-state.edu/~jsmith/MSDS/SANFORD%20--%20RUBBER%20CEMENT.htm</a>

<a href="http://www.devcon.com/techinfo/14900.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.devcon.com/techinfo/14900.pdf</a>

[xoo1246]

Hmm, I belive not, this is a solution in gasoline and it's self amalgating.

[McGuyver]

Can't you find ANY info on it? Is there a brand name? Can't tell from the picture. If there is then it should be easy. Maybe A pic of the front of the tube, unless of course there is nothing there.

[xoo1246]

The brand is Asperg, a german company, did a search but info is offcourse in german. But anyway, it's fairly pointless since it's not very much in those tubes anyway, most of the contents is gasoline.

[bonnsgeo]

xoo, i saw on Exxon site that their pib is a liquid (brown)..so i think they sale their pib in a gazoline solution ..so maybe you are right ...

Maybe u could let it dry and add some adipate or sebacate and motor oil and ...petn (or rdx) :) to see what will happen .. :rolleyes:

bye

[bonnsgeo]

does anybody know where we can found these products ? (for semtex)

N--phenyl-2-naphthalamine
n-octyl phthalate
styrene-butadiene rubber

i suppose "n" could be "di", "tri" or something like that ..? "di octyl phtalate" for example.

thx

EDIT:
i saw on a web site that the amalgamating tape is pib reinforced by polyethylene ; pib dissovle in gazoline ...but polytethylene ?

<small>[ August 17, 2002, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: bonnsgeo ]</small>

[bonnsgeo]

hello,

somebody know the exact action of adipate (or sebacate) on pib ?
because pib is a rubber and adipate is a plasticizer ; so the pib become plastic ??

strange.
bye

[Cricket]

Does anyone have any info about using the bladder in balls or maybe in tires? Sounds easy enough. Is is pure does anyone know? Thanks.

PS, I also read PIB is in Bazooka Joe bubble gum. I can get it fairly cheap, 25 pcs (unknown weight) for $1. Anyone got any ideas? Thanks again!

<small>[ August 20, 2002, 09:37 PM: Message edited by: Cricket ]</small>

[mongo blongo]

The adipate/sebacate is the plasticizer. It will blend in with the binder (PIB) to form a thick slurry (when solvent has evaporated) to mix with the explosive. It acts as a kind of emulsifier to give the resulting explosive a homogenous composition. It basically prevents the presents of lumps of PIB in the C4. It also contributes to the viscosity of the binder/plasticizer needed to form a moldable explosive.
I think the bladder in balls and tires are a mixture of PIB and other synthetic rubbers which would make it a poor choice for a source of PIB.

[Microtek]

Also, the PIB in tyres is of a much too great chain length I think; it is virtually impossible to dissolve it in common solvents. Of course, this could be due to vulcanization.

[rikkitikkitavi]

dont know if this late info:

n-octyl phtalate is most commonly used in PVC-plastics as a softener.
PVC is normally hard but mixed with the softener you get a softer :)
plastic usabale in hoses f ex. Other phtalates are used in the same
manner.

They are somewhat watersoluble, the reason why PVC-tubes goes hard after constant use with water flowing through.

/rickard

[bonnsgeo]

hi.
i received today the adipate.

now, my problem is my scale which is not precise (1 g)

so i did a test with corn flour + "pib" (tape) + adipate + motor oil ..it failed (corn flour is not a good thing).
now i test with 9g of petn and more "pib",more adipate and more motor oil...its drying ... ( i hope it will work)

bye

[Darkbloodpriest]

I wonder if I was the only one who checked out stanfields link...

Has anyone checked out the starbrite tape before or know anything about it?

And has anyone tried using acetone instead of gasoline to
dissolve the pib off?

(I just realized that the P.I.B. IS the tape...just now read some previous posts.
I feel so kewl.)

<small>[ December 16, 2002, 09:18 PM: Message edited by: Darkbloodpriest ]</small>

[mongo blongo]

Acetone is absolute wank when it comes to dissolving PIB. I would advise either petrol, toluene or xylene as the solvent.

[genovese6314]

Sorry to dig up an old thread but I would probably get flamed for starting a new thread.
Up in Canada we have "dyed" petrol that us farmers use. We get a discount on the gas price because it is intended for use in farm related equipment/ vehicles.
At the time that was all I had to dissolve my "putty tape" in that has a high percentage of Butyl rubber. Unfortunately this originally powdered dye in the gas stayed with my polyisobuylene and im worried about how it will affect the stability of say RDX?

Besides that, I am still stuck on what I could find for a plasticizer that is readily available. Any ideas, PM me. Thx