Nitromethane

[green beret]

Well, Ive been looking for a supplier of nitromethane for ages and I have found a few, but none that will ship it to me. Yes, it is a dangerous good, but no-one wants to help me, some places even avoid it like the plague, I've had some really strange responses to questions about getting it, does anyone know of a place that will organise to ship it, or, would anyone like to supply me with some, for my model car of course. If anyone can sell me some, please contact me via email.
Thankyou.
Also, If anyone wants a list of places that sell it, email me. But remember these places WONT ship it.

[Stone]

Is your list only NSW?

My mate has a RC car that takes fuel, would this be NM? He just goes to the store and buys it by the litre.

[green beret]

My list is NSW VIC and QLD.
Your mates fuel wouldnt be straight nitro, probabaly only 5-15%. But I found a supplier, so thats good. Mmmmmmm.....ANNM.....

[kingspaz]

i thought car fuel was typically 25-40% nitro. this would maybe make it possible for use in ANNM...

[metafractal]

At first I thought the same thing- that nitromethane was just any old RC fuel. I couldnt work out what all the fuss was about, how hard can it be to find RC car fuel? I went asking at every hobby shop in town, but didnt see any that was more than 20%. It was even hard to find that, most places only stock up to 10/15%.

[zaibatsu]

In addition to the standard NM/Castor oil race fuel, in the UK you can purchase 100% NM from hobby shops.

[kingspaz]

well guys, have a look for model helicopter fuel if you're in a hobby shop. i know for a fact that that is high nitro fuel. it should be over 30% nitro.

[Efraim_barkbit]

at least in sweden, you can get nitromethane in many different concentrations from hobbyshops that sell rc cars, the most commonly avalible I belive is 10%, but getting pure stuff is no problem from the few places I have checked, but it is rather expensive. (about 28 US$ in todays exchange rate)

[rooster]

Try getting 100% as this it is cheaper for model hobbyists blending the fuel themselves than buying it from the store.

Helicopter fuel I think is everything from 50-75% NM.

[VX]

In addition to the standard NM/Castor oil race fuel, in the UK you can purchase 100% NM from hobby shops.

If you don't mind me asking how much do you pay for the pure nitromethane? Also do the shops tend to keep it in stock, or do they have to order it? Finaly would you say most model shops sell the pure stuff, or have you just been lucky ion finding one that does??

[Anthony]

I've always bought mail order (check the net) as my local hobby shops are pretty small and don't stock pure NM, although it is a common item and they can order it for you.

[blindreeper]

Hey green baret can you post the places in QLD or email them to me at blindthug@hotmail.com? I also have a nice high performance R/C car...:p

[Ropik]

In majority of shops which sell R/C fuels you can get almost pure NM(99,7%), just say you mix your fuels yourself. You must know something about R/C fuels, mixing and R/C hobby generally, because many shop assistants ask you about it and when you say something like:"I do not know what is R/C... It does NOT matter... Just give me this NM... FAST!!!" the assistant goes suspicious and may not sells NM to you(I don't know, I can just go to hobby shop in local supermarket and say "Hey, I need 500ml of pure nitromethane" and I have it for moderate price).

[Barcy]

Does anyone know what the hydrocarbon distilate contents are of the octate booster products that you buy from auto places (eg. Wynns Octate Booster).

They don't list the chemicals (unless someone is poisoned and a doctor requests the information, you are not able to get the information), but I am guessing these are just bottles of NM with a fancy name and a couple of additives. Any ideas on how to test for or extract the NM???

[0EZ0]

Commercially available octane boosters are most likely not to contain Nitromethane. At least not without many warnings on the label plus a hefty price. Look for a few MSDS on google. There are plenty of them with most saying their product contains various hydrocarbons and other mixed distillates. Meaning they'll contain all sorts of things like xylenes, kero, methanol, ethanol, toluene, benzene derivatives etc. Not very useful other than increasing the octane value of your car's petrol tank contents.

In medium to high concentrations Nitromethane tends to form explosive nitronate salts with metal oxides. That is why there are strict guidelines regarding the fuel systems of drag cars that incorporate niromethane in their fuels. They usually mix a fuel tank dip which sits in the tank for a few days to rid any of the residual nitromethane and its salts.

[evilgecko_007]

I think there is a go-cart shop close to me which sells nitro-methane.

[kingspaz]

People may want to try motorsport shops. NM is commonly used as a fuel for drag cars. Also as a fuel performance additive - where it can be had in smaller quantities instead of barrels. In some cases it may be necessary to join a motorsport club and even build a drag car, but this would get you access to 50 gallon drums of it :D

The 'additive' NM can be had without that sort of hassle though.

[Centimeter]

I found a site that sells 100% NM. Worldwideracingfuels.com

I tried buying a gallon, however it was not so easy. They sent me what they called a Pro Nitro Security Sheet. They demand that you tell them your SS#, Driver's License #, Credit Card # and Exp. date, Bank name and accnt #, and Federal Tax ID #. They also wanted a photocopy of my driver's license. Furthermore, the shipping costs just a few bucks less than the NM! I am a very paranoid guy, so I canceled the order.

Recently, I came accross what looks to be a better alternative. http://www.wildcatfuel.com/fuel_promix.html

This contains 65% NM and 18% Castor Oil. Since it is not pure NM, the shipping should be much less and there should be fewer questions. The fuel can then be run through a quick distillation to remove the castor oil, producing 80% NM and 20% methanol. 80% NM should be more than good enough for ANNM explosives. I am going to be giving them a call on monday. I will report back the price and purchasing requirements.

You people that have access to 45% NM should go ahead and buy it. Buy the one with the greatest castor oil content as this is easily removed.

[Cyclonite]

Heres a company I was e-mailing, I made up a story and used a .mil e-mail. I can't bring myself to spend that much on NM.


We are Shandong Baoyuan Chemical Co.,Ltd.My name is
Alice Wang.About the detail informations of
Nitromethane are as follows:
SPEC
Content:99%min. Moisture:0.5%max. Acidity:0.2%max.
PACKING
Packing in 225kg plastic drums or according the
requirements of customer.
PRICE
USD1190/MT FOB QINGDAO,CHINA
Pls think about it.
Looking forward your early reply.
Thanks and Best Wishes,
Alice Wang

[kbk]

i have some NM left from my r/c car, it is 30% would this work for ANNM? thanks in advance guys.

[Centimeter]

It wont work all that well. It would probably perform simmilar to an ANFO charge. You will definately have to use a large booster. I tried detonating 100g of ANNM (using 40%NM) with about 7g ETN and I only got a partial detonation. With this kind of thing, you can easily do some experimentation and find out for yourself.

[powium]

Hi Green Beret. You may or may not be interested in the following source that I found while looking for nitro in Victoria, but it might be a useful link for other Australians after nitromethane. Unfortunately you'll have to buy it in bulk though. The price is AU$16/L.

http://www.rpw.com.au/shop/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=183&category_id=&manufacturer_id=54&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=31

I should mention that I have no affiliation with the website.
Also, that I have recently joined the forum and look forward to learning from the vast amount of experience of many of the members here.

[hatal]

How could I "extract" the nitromethane fast and cheap from RC fuel mix which contains 20% nitromethane (rest is ofcourse methanol and castor oil). The reason for this questions is, I only have access to 20% NM RC fuel. I already have 5 litre of this mix and I would like to get ca. 1 litre (fairly pure) nitromethane.

So how could I separate out the NM or bind the methanol and the oil? Any feasable procedures?

[Masonjar Chemist]

If the only liquids in the RC fuel are castor oil, methanol, and nitromethane then your best bet may be distillation. MeOH boils at 65C, castor oil at 313C, but NM boils at ~100C, I believe methanol does form an azetrope with NM, but at least you will be one step closer.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

MeOH boils at 65C, castor oil at 313C, but NM boils at ~100C, I believe methanol does form an azetrope with NM, but at least you will be one step closer.

I think you're right on the money. That's what I would do. It's a lightweight distillation as it's not caustic, etc and the temp range is wide & your viscosity would make the whole thing fairly fast.

[Alexires]

Just make sure that the glassware you are using is sealed, that is, you don't want to have MeOH and Nitromethane floating around in the air if you have a naked flame.

Otherwise, use a water bath or an oil bath to keep the temperature in the right range.

If you are worried about an azeotrope, distill off a bunch of MeOH/Nitro azeotrope, then distill that batch to decrease the MeOH contaminant.

[hatal]

Would the NM be sufficient for ANNM production if I only go through the MeOH distillation process and leave the oil in the solution. The NM would have only ca.12% oil impurity.

The correct ratios for the RC fuel mix is:
castor oil 2%
fuel oil 10%
NM 25% (sorry, I know I said 20% before, my error)
the rest is methanol (63%)

[Man Down Under]

If you are worried about an azeotrope, distill off a bunch of MeOH/Nitro azeotrope, then distill that batch to decrease the MeOH contaminant.

Definition of Azeotrope:

An azeotrope is a mixture of two or more pure compounds (chemicals) in such a ratio that its composition cannot be changed by simple distillation.

[tmp]

The fuel oil component may be a problem in itself depending on WHAT it is.

I was thinking of vacuum distillation like that is used for obtaining fuming
nitric acid but the BP of the azeotrope and BP of methanol are very close
so I don't know unless I can get more data.

According to CRC, 52nd Edition, 1971-1972: Methanol forms the
azeotrope(at 8% CH3OH) that boils at 64.5 C - 0.2 C lower than CH3OH's BP
at 64.7 C. Expect the azeotrope, with most if not all of the nitromethane, to
come over 1ST during distillation. I'd use the hot water bath as suggested.
I'll look around on the net for further purification methods.

BTW, Man Down Under, is correct about the nature of azeotropes.

[megalomania]

I don’t have any concrete data in front of me, mind you, but I would suggest trying some other solvents to trap the methyl alcohol. Toluene and acetone could be used as they both form azeotropes with methyl alcohol. I would imagine the presence of fuel oil in your mixture might serve as an azeotropic mix for methyl alcohol as well. Fractional distillation under vacuum would be the standard course of action in this case. Unfortunately there are no easy ways to separate pure nitromethane, but your suggested use may not require purity. Having an organic molecule like methanol, acetone, toluene, or the like might work fine for your application.

If purity is your game I am sure there are some methods of chemically transforming one component or another via a protecting group to get an easy to separate mixture. Nitromethane is just a bitch to distill…

Looking at my own website, on the synthesis of nitromethane (http://www.roguesci.org/megalomania/synth/synthesis3.html#nitrometh) it should be possible to shake your distillate with an excess of water, in which some methyl alcohol will be miscible, separate the layers, and redistill. I don’t know if this will work well enough to be worth the trouble, but some of the methyl alcohol should be removed.

[hatal]

Helpfull chaps of mine on DeRerum Omnis "tagged" me with the idea of a NM water-wash. Sound promising. I will have to try that soon with small quantities to get concrete results.

[Alexires]

Ohhh. My bad. I was thinking about reduced pressure when I was talking about distilling with an azeotrope.

Another possible way of going about it (I think) without vacuum distillation is to use the differing polarities of NM and MeOH and running a chromatogram.

Imagine, if you will, a metre (or two) column of glass, packed with ion exchange media (small resin balls) which have a polar charge. By utilizing the differing polarities of methanol (5.67x10-30Cm) and the nitromethane (11.5x10-30Cm) one would be able to separate those two substances.

Eh? So get a glass column (or plastic, or metal, or something impervious to the heat and solvent properties) and pack it with a polar stationary phase, or you can use resin balls and pass a polar liquid over them first to impart polar properties to them. Run a steam distillation as per normal, but hopefully this time, the polar stationary would retard the nitromethane and the methanol would distil over first.

You could always go the other way around and pack the column with a non-polar stationary phase and retard the methanol and distil over the nitromethane.

I'm not sure which would be better, as you would probably have to repeat a few times (although the polarity is rather different) but personally I would use a polar stationary phase and try and get the methanol out first by slowly....SLOWLY distilling it.

Questions, queries or doubtful points?

[megalomania]

One can make an improvised chromatographic column from a fluorescent light tube packed with alumina. I wish I would have snagged some of those 8 foot bulbs from work; when these burn out companies pack them into a box for recycling since they can't be thrown into the trash. If you can't get a used bulb, buying a 4 foot new bulb is not terribly expensive, about $1-$2 each.

Alumina can be bought from... I forget at the moment, paint supplies or contractor stores I think. I have some, I forget where I got it, or what its intended purpose is. The stuff may need to be cleaned by running blank solvent through.

So then, you have your fluorescent tube, ends cut off, white powder cleaned off, the bottom is corked with a one-hole rubber stopper, cotton balls on the botom layer, then a bit of sand, tube filled most of the way (1/2 to 2/3 of the way) with alumina, then a sand topper, then empty space for your liquid to fill. You can use a stopcock on the bottom of the column, or you can improvise one by sticking short length of glass tubing into the hole, connect a bit of rubber tubing to the glass, and crimp with a pinch clamp, clothspin, twisted wire, whathaveyou. You could even use an eye dropper and cap the bottom with the rubber bulb when you need to shut it off.

I can't tell you off hand how effective this would be for your nitromethane mixture, or if you need any eluting solvents. If you can get the alumina, this improvised column is much cheaper than a glass distillation setup. I did not describe the process of setting up a column in detail, there are certain techniques to packing and using a chromatographic column that can be learned from lab manuals. A book can tell you much more than I can in a brief post. My aim here is to describe how the equipment can be improvised, and introduce the technique.

I do foresee one flaw, ordinarily I have the advantage of using NMR or GC to identify the fractions. There must be chemical tests to determine the presence of nitromethane, alcohols, hydrocarbons, and the like, but that is old time knowledge.

[nightandday]

Nitromethane reacts with sodium hydroxide to form a nonvolatile salt-like compound. This salt and Methanol can be separated by distillation. Its quite easy.

[tmp]

I wouldn't mix nitromethane with ANY hydroxide. Explosive nitronates are
formed ! :eek: As for alumina, look for it at a pottery supplier if there's one
close to you.

[megalomania]

I did a brief search, but I didn't see anything... Once you mix the nitromethane with sodium hydroxide, how do you reverse the process and get nitromethane back? Do you add the salt to a strong acid to regenerate free nitromethane, or are you stuck with the salt? I found several journal articles about reacting nitroalkanes with bases to form nitronate salts, but I didn't see any reactions going the other way.

Technically, nitromethane is an explosive too, so forming explosive nitronate salts should be no surprise. I would say keep them in some type of solution since I don't know anything about the safety of nitronate salts, and they are not the desired end product here.

[Alexires]

Mega, could one not just use a simple calorimeter to estimate the % of methanol in nitromethane?

On second thought, the Enthalpy of combustion for both aren't that different (-709kj/mol for Nitromethane and -715kj/mol for Methanol) but perhaps a calorimetry exercise is possible.

Otherwise, once the nitromethane has been run through our improvised column, if the methanol or Nitromethane has been retarded to any degree, the boiling point of the product will be different than our original distillate, yes?

I'm sure it is possible to work out the % composition by the boiling point of the resulting mixture.

[kurtz]

Addition of sulfuric acid will bind the methanol as the acid sulfate. Distillation, with a little vacuum if necessary, will give you the nitromethane.

[Enkidu]

A good way to figure out if you're anywhere close to 100% nitromethane is to check the density...