help with a Pyrotek order

[A-BOMB]

I'm going to make a order from <a href="http://www.pyrotek.org" target="_blank">www.pyrotek.org</a> some time soon and need to know if theres anything else I need with my order to make these comps. Well heres my order and what I'm hopeing I can do with it.

Product number: Price: Quanity: decription:
(these two chems I want to use in a thermite comp 75/25%)
PT_D_Chem73-19 $7.95 3lbs Iron oxide(red)
PT_A_Chem65-2 $11.95 1lbs AL 400 mesh
(this I want to use to ignite the thermite comp)
PT_M_Chem77-5 $19.95 1lbs MG 100 mesh

I'll finish this when I have some time later.

[Bitter]

I don't think it's too smart to post your order here. Someone will be able to tell exactly who you are from your order and they might even contact the authorities. At least keep the quantities a secret.

[xoo1246]

As if you are anonymous now. If some government/intelligence wishes to know who this fellow is, then there wouldn't be much of a trouble for them to find it out. As an example, they see his e-mail adress. They contact the e-mail host and ask for the ip, then they contact his isp. If he didn't use proxy servers that is.
First, I would recomend checking some ceramics material supplyer for Fe2O3. Second, BP with some Al in it is capable of igniting thermite easy. I made a post in this topic before, BUT it didn't show up somehow.

[DBSP]

I don't see why the first would be any trouble ordering, don't know about the rest though.

And I'm of the belive if the athoroties want's to nail you, they'll nail you. No matter how mant times you say you only dremt it. And if they wanted to nail us, they easily could, just think of how many of us that has posted pics and such.

[A-BOMB]

Well I was looking at there site and they sell a 20 to 200 mesh granular AL for $9.95 and that 400 mesh AL $19.95 which one do you think I should buy for a 75/25% thermite comp? And does anyone know the approximate volume (in cups or something)
of a pound of AL at 400 or so mesh?

<small>[ June 04, 2002, 11:47 AM: Message edited by: A-BOMB ]</small>

[10fingers]

A-Bomb, I think I saw at Firefox a pre-mixed thermite. It was less expensive than buying the two ingredients separately. If you do want them separate, a ceramics supply is a cheap source of Iron oxide.

[mongo blongo]

I think it's much better to make FeO3 yourself (from Iron sulfate and ammonia).
Just one question about thermite. Does it burn better when pressed? I have been able to get the reaction started but it always goes out when about 1/4 of the mix is reacted. :mad:
I have tried a few ratios now and the best I have had was 30%Al 70%FeO3 (by weight) but it's still no good. Does anyone have a tried and tested ratio?

[10fingers]

I have a mil-spec for a thermite grenade composition from a book entitled "expedient hand grenades". I don't have it where I'm at now so I can't post it. Maybe tomorrow.
I do remember it says that there is barium nitrate added to the iron oxide and aluminum and that it is pressed.

[kingspaz]

i've posted this before but since i saved a copy for moments like this here it is again:

For black iron oxide (Fe2O3)
Fe2O3 + 2Al ----> Al2O3 + 2Fe
1:2
2(56) = 112 + 3(16) = 160
27*2 = 54
160g Fe2O3 for every 54g Al = 3:1 Fe2O3/Al by weight

For Red iron oxide (FeO)
3FeO + 2Al ----> Al2O3 + 3Fe
3:2
56 + 16 = 72*3 = 216
2*27 = 54
216g FeO for every 54g of Al = 4:1 FeO/Al by weight

i find thermite burns better pressed. but you must keep a little loose on top where the starter mixture is. allow the loose surface stuff to mix slightly with the starter mix to improve burn temperature. i've never failed to set it off completely but then i used pottery grade Fe2O3.

[A-BOMB]

Well still which mesh AL do you think is better for a thermite comp?
And Kingspaz what did you use as you igniter comp?

[10fingers]

This comp is called "Thermate". A standard incendiary mix.
Aluminum, grained MIL-A-512 16% by weight.
Aluminum, flaked MIL-A-512 9%
Iron oxide, black, technical, F3O4 MIL-I-275 44%
Barium nitrate MIL-B-162 29%
Sulfur MIL-S-487 2.0%
Resin, commercial LAMINAC 4116 plus catalyst, 5%
This mixture is usually loaded into the grenade body and consolidated with a minimum dead load of 8.5 tons.
This material burns at a temp of 2200*C

[xoo1246]

kingspaz: Red iron oxide is Fe2O3 and black and Fe3O4.

[mongo blongo]

Are you sure? I thought it was the other way around like Kingspaz said.

[kingspaz]

xoo, i AM right :D
the black iron oxide i have bought says Fe2O3 on the packet :)
A-BOMB, i used half a ground up sparkler to ignite it.

copy and paste link:

<a href="http://www.angelfire.com/mo3/kingspaz/50g_thermite2___kingspaz.rm" target="_blank">http://www.angelfire.com/mo3/kingspaz/50g_thermite2___kingspaz.rm</a>

[A-BOMB]

So Kingspaz you used Black Iron oxide, right? But what mesh AL? Because I don't really want to buy the more exspensive higher mesh AL when I can get away with a less costly lower mesh. And which one of you thermite comp formulas is the more powerful? Thermite or Thermate?

[DarkAngel]

No Fe2O3 is Red and Fe3O4 is Black Xoo is right

[zaibatsu]

Post some info/link to a site to verify your claims rather than just yes/no answers.

[xoo1246]

If you can read swedish I'll post an image from my chem. book.
But since I don't have a scanner,book pages don't look good through a digital camera and the fact that you probably cant read it anyway.

Here is a link:
<a href="http://www.reade.com/Products/Categories/iron_oxide.html" target="_blank">http://www.reade.com/Products/Categories/iron_oxide.html</a>

There are also many many sites that say it's the other way around.
That could be a result of the fact that the ore(called blood stone in swedish) is blue-grey to black-grey before it has been crushed (becomes rouge).

[kingspaz]

ok, thanks xoo! you have made me doubt myself and with good reason you ARE right. thanks!
i apologise for my mistake and heres a link to prove me wrong.....i'll recalculate those ratios once my exams are over.

<a href="http://mineral.galleries.com/minerals/oxides/magnetit/magnetit.htm" target="_blank">http://mineral.galleries.com/minerals/oxides/magnetit/magnetit.htm</a>

so whats FeO?

[0EZ0]

I searched all the Fe compounds mentioned:

FeO
Iron (II) Oxide [1345-25-1]

Synonyms: Ferrous Oxide; Iron oxide; Iron monoxide; Iron (II) oxide, 99.5% (metals basis);

FeO

71.8444
---------------------------------
Fe2O3
Ferric oxide [1309-37-1]

Synonyms: Red iron oxide; C.I. 77491; Rouge; Iron (III) oxide; Ferric oxide red; Iron oxide; Iron oxide (Fe2O3); diiron trioxide; English iron oxide red; Iron oxide red; Pigment red 101; Iron(III) oxide dihydrate; FERRIC OXIDE, 99.99%; FERRIC OXIDE FUME;

Fe2O3

159.6882
---------------------------------
Fe3O4
Iron Oxide [1317-61-9]

Synonyms: Iron oxides (Fe3O4); triiron tetraoxide; Iron(II,III) oxide; Iron(II)Oxide, black; ferrosoferric oxide; Iron (II,III) oxide, black; Iron (II,III) oxide, 97% (metals basis); IRON(II,III) OXIDE (MAGNETITE);

Fe3O4

231.5326
---------------------------------

I used this database <a href="http://chemfinder.cambridgesoft.com/" target="_blank">Chemfinder.com</a>

<small>[ June 07, 2002, 10:25 PM: Message edited by: 0EZ0 ]</small>

[xoo1246]

Great, I never thought of chemsearch.

[oryp69]

iron oxide red- Fe2O3- iron (III) oxide
iron oxide black- Fe3O4- iron (II, III) oxide

[kingspaz]

ah that makes sense. i found on a site that Fe3O4 contains two iron (III) and one iron (II) so it can be treated as Fe2O3.FeO making equations easier to work out :)

For BLACK iron oxide (Fe3O4)

3Fe3O4 + 8Al ---&gt; 9Fe + 4Al2O3
ratio 3:8
(3*56)+(4*16) = 232*3 = 696g Fe3O4
8*27 = 216*8 = 1728g Al
696/696 = 1 Fe3O4
1728/696 = 2.5
ratio = 2:5 Fe3O4/Al by weight.

For RED iron oxide (Fe2O3)
Fe2O3 + 2Al ----&gt; Al2O3 + 2Fe
1:2
2(56) = 112 + 3(16) = 160
27*2 = 54
160g Fe2O3 for every 54g Al = 3:1 Fe2O3/Al by weight

For iron oxide (FeO)
3FeO + 2Al ----&gt; Al2O3 + 3Fe
3:2
56 + 16 = 72*3 = 216
2*27 = 54
216g FeO for every 54g of Al = 4:1 FeO/Al by weight

right. now thats the ratios done! sorry it took a while but i've had exams on....theres probably a few mistakes in there (only the first one is the only new one though) i'm REALLY tired....

[Gumby]

I think it's much better to make FeO3 yourself (from Iron sulfate and ammonia).
Just one question about thermite. Does it burn better when pressed? I have been able to get the reaction started but it always goes out when about 1/4 of the mix is reacted. :mad:
I have tried a few ratios now and the best I have had was 30%Al 70%FeO3 (by weight) but it's still no good. Does anyone have a tried and tested ratio?

Depending on the particle size it can burn better. Submicron powders actually burn slower when compressed. If your reaction is going out it could be because it is poorly mixed or the particles are too large.

[nbk2000]

mongo blongo - Last Activity: May 25th, 2005

Before bringing up a FIVE year old thread, and quoting someone as part of an answer to their question, perhaps you'd be better served by first seeing if they've been to the site anytime within the last TWO years. :rolleyes:

Fuckin' n00bs.