Anthony
March 4th, 2003, 05:56 PM
Microtek
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Posts: 194
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted January 04, 2001 09:44 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was wondering if anyone has successfully
sensitized NM with household ammonia (25%)?
If so, what level of sensitivity are we talking about and what is the minimum amount
of NM that has been detonated (and with how much containment).
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 11, 2001 04:27 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nitromethanate of NH4 is unstable when you try to get it dry; but I do think that bubbling NH3 trough nitromethane will give you some of the salt dissolved as a brown looking solution. That solution will be more sensitive than NM alone. A lot of amines sensitise NM such as diaminoethane, methanamine in a range of a few %.
You may also try simple dry hydroxydes of Na or K with a trace of water; they give a dark brown solution of nitromethanate. A few % of that solution will also sensitise NM.
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o )"
Mr Cool
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Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 11, 2001 12:40 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you say methanamine, are you talking about the common name for hexamethylenetetramine, or do you actually mean something called methanamine?
Stone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 140
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 11, 2001 06:40 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok... So if someone was to add a small % of NaOH solution to some NM, and then use the resulting solution for ANNM, would this be a more sensitive ANNM? Or would it not help at all?
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 12, 2001 08:05 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Methyl amine- amino methane- (mono)methanamine: CH3-NH2.
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 12, 2001 08:08 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hexamine, hexamethylenetetramine is a polymer of methenamine (CH2=NH) that has lost some NH3.In chemistry one letter can make the difference:
methanOl is not methanAl
methEamine is not methAnamine
....
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o )"
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 12, 2001 05:11 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, I realise that. It's the same with alkanes/alkenes, ketones/ketanes etc., I was just making sure because many people I know call HMT methanamine for short. I don't know why, but they do. Am I right in thinking that hexamethylenetetramine could be hydrolised in hot HCl to methylamine hydrochloride, which could be added to a hot saturated NaOH solution to produce methylamine vapours?
C6H12N4 + 4HCl + 4H20 -> 4CH3NH2.HCl + 2CO2
CH3NH2.HCl + NaOH -> CH3NH2 + NaCl + H2O
If this doesn't work, someone tell me why because I'm sure it would. You could bubble the methylamine vapours through the CH3NO2 directly to sensitise it.
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 18, 2001 07:16 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think to remember it is possible to do methylamine that way...but I'm not 100% sure because I have written that 5 years ago somewhere...But the reaction process might be different as the one you think of:I remember that when you use HCl solution and HCl dry gas you have different results.
Hexamethylenetetramine is in equilibrium with NH3, CH2=O, and CH2=NH
Most of your HCl in solution will be catch by the NH3 to form NH4Cl; then the excess will react with CH2=O to lead partially to CH3-OH and HCO2H.
CH3-OH will lead partially to CH3-Cl (gaseous).
If the HCl is dry with dry HMT you will get CH2ClOH as an intermediary to CH3-O-CH2Cl....
CH3-NH2 can be made by CH3-OH + NH3
CH3-NH3Cl can be made by CH3-Cl + NH3
CH3-Cl can be made by CH3-OH+ HCl + ZnCl2 or FeCl3 or AlCl3...it is a gas!!!!.
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o )"
Mr Cool
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Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 18, 2001 01:42 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the info.
CH3-OH... That's methanol, right?
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 19, 2001 04:03 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes!
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 20, 2001 07:51 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you.
Do you know what conditions, i.e. temperature, pressure, pH etc. are needed to make CH3-NH2 from CH3-OH and NH3? I would have thought that you'd need a catalyst or maybe even produce an intermediate compound first, but I'm not an expert in this field of chemistry!
Many thanks,
Mr Cool
Mr Cool
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Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
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posted January 27, 2001 09:01 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello?
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 30, 2001 11:13 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry I'm working so I can not follow everything everytime... so there is sometimes delay before I can answer!
It is an equilibrium reaction
CH3-OH + NH3(dry gas) <===> CH3-NH2 + H2O
But further and faster:
CH3-NH2 + CH3-OH <===> CH3-NH-CH3 + H2O
CH3-NH-CH3 + CH3-OH <==> CH3-N(CH3)-CH3 + H2O
Thus increasing the concentration of the reactants will not help on the side of the methanol since it increases parasite side reactions....
I think high pressure will favorise the right side, a little warming(50C) and a big amount (concentration) of NH3 to favorise the monomethyl product(NH3 is toxic and CH3-OH is very flamable!!!!).
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o )"
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 30, 2001 02:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the information. I'll let you know how it works if I try it.
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 02, 2001 08:22 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ahhh I have found my note back on that synthesis:
Simply heat NH4Cl (s) dry and CH2=O (or the paraformaldehyde since it is more handable and release CH2=O upon heating).
NH4Cl can be made by reacting HCl and NH3 very cheap and makes a beautiful londonian smogg;an aerosol of NH4Cl (solid). Evaporates and cristallises it before use.
Use an excess of NH4Cl!!!!!!
NH4Cl + CH2O--> CH3-NH3Cl + ...
Maybe an analog reaction occurs when heating NH4NO3 with formaldehyde and that must be the reason why it is forbidden to do so....you will generate then methylamine nitrate (M(e)AN) what may explode when heated and detonate the less sensitive NH4NO3!
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o )"
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 03, 2001 12:12 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MMAN can be made from paraformaldehyde and NH4NO3 by heating them together in a strong, aqueous solution, but I don't think heating it would cause a detonation. It's insensitive stuff.
simply RED
Frequent Poster
Posts: 238
From: HELL
Registered: OCT 2000
posted February 03, 2001 07:13 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In KIPE it is described a proces that uses ammonium nitrate and paraformaldehyde ot make explosive(not described more), it tells that formic acid is also produced. Can someone tell me what is the exact(whole) reaction of CH2=O+NH4NO3, I think PHILOW is near the truth. I'm very interested in that because my chem suplier sells 5liters formalin(35%) for 2 ammerican bugs. Also the explosive MMAN is very good as KIBC tells...
Thanks
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 04, 2001 06:29 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, that depends what you mean by good. It's quite powerful and brisant, but I don't like the fact that if you leave it out in the open it'll turn itself into a soggy puddle, and you need a big charge to set it off.
I tried to work out the equation for CH2O + NH4NO3 --> HCOOH + CH3NH3NO3 + ?, but it's pretty hard. Any ideas, Philou?
CH2O + NH4NO3 --> HCOOH + CH3NH3NO3 + CO2 + H2O
I think the above equation is correct except that it isn't balanced. I tried for a while, but got bored and gave up.
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 16, 2001 09:10 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not far indeed: I know that
CH2=O + CH2=O + OH(-) --> HCO2(-) + CH3-OH
2CH2=O + H2O -->HCO2H + CH3-OH
thus
2CH2=O +NH4NO3 --> HCO2H + CH3-NH3NO3
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o )"
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 16, 2001 03:33 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks Philou.
I don't know why, but I thought CO2 and H2O were made as well. I probably just imagined it!
Frequent Poster
Posts: 194
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted January 04, 2001 09:44 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was wondering if anyone has successfully
sensitized NM with household ammonia (25%)?
If so, what level of sensitivity are we talking about and what is the minimum amount
of NM that has been detonated (and with how much containment).
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 11, 2001 04:27 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nitromethanate of NH4 is unstable when you try to get it dry; but I do think that bubbling NH3 trough nitromethane will give you some of the salt dissolved as a brown looking solution. That solution will be more sensitive than NM alone. A lot of amines sensitise NM such as diaminoethane, methanamine in a range of a few %.
You may also try simple dry hydroxydes of Na or K with a trace of water; they give a dark brown solution of nitromethanate. A few % of that solution will also sensitise NM.
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o )"
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 11, 2001 12:40 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you say methanamine, are you talking about the common name for hexamethylenetetramine, or do you actually mean something called methanamine?
Stone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 140
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 11, 2001 06:40 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok... So if someone was to add a small % of NaOH solution to some NM, and then use the resulting solution for ANNM, would this be a more sensitive ANNM? Or would it not help at all?
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 12, 2001 08:05 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Methyl amine- amino methane- (mono)methanamine: CH3-NH2.
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 12, 2001 08:08 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hexamine, hexamethylenetetramine is a polymer of methenamine (CH2=NH) that has lost some NH3.In chemistry one letter can make the difference:
methanOl is not methanAl
methEamine is not methAnamine
....
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o )"
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 12, 2001 05:11 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, I realise that. It's the same with alkanes/alkenes, ketones/ketanes etc., I was just making sure because many people I know call HMT methanamine for short. I don't know why, but they do. Am I right in thinking that hexamethylenetetramine could be hydrolised in hot HCl to methylamine hydrochloride, which could be added to a hot saturated NaOH solution to produce methylamine vapours?
C6H12N4 + 4HCl + 4H20 -> 4CH3NH2.HCl + 2CO2
CH3NH2.HCl + NaOH -> CH3NH2 + NaCl + H2O
If this doesn't work, someone tell me why because I'm sure it would. You could bubble the methylamine vapours through the CH3NO2 directly to sensitise it.
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 18, 2001 07:16 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think to remember it is possible to do methylamine that way...but I'm not 100% sure because I have written that 5 years ago somewhere...But the reaction process might be different as the one you think of:I remember that when you use HCl solution and HCl dry gas you have different results.
Hexamethylenetetramine is in equilibrium with NH3, CH2=O, and CH2=NH
Most of your HCl in solution will be catch by the NH3 to form NH4Cl; then the excess will react with CH2=O to lead partially to CH3-OH and HCO2H.
CH3-OH will lead partially to CH3-Cl (gaseous).
If the HCl is dry with dry HMT you will get CH2ClOH as an intermediary to CH3-O-CH2Cl....
CH3-NH2 can be made by CH3-OH + NH3
CH3-NH3Cl can be made by CH3-Cl + NH3
CH3-Cl can be made by CH3-OH+ HCl + ZnCl2 or FeCl3 or AlCl3...it is a gas!!!!.
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o )"
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 18, 2001 01:42 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the info.
CH3-OH... That's methanol, right?
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 19, 2001 04:03 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes!
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 20, 2001 07:51 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you.
Do you know what conditions, i.e. temperature, pressure, pH etc. are needed to make CH3-NH2 from CH3-OH and NH3? I would have thought that you'd need a catalyst or maybe even produce an intermediate compound first, but I'm not an expert in this field of chemistry!
Many thanks,
Mr Cool
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 27, 2001 09:01 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello?
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted January 30, 2001 11:13 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry I'm working so I can not follow everything everytime... so there is sometimes delay before I can answer!
It is an equilibrium reaction
CH3-OH + NH3(dry gas) <===> CH3-NH2 + H2O
But further and faster:
CH3-NH2 + CH3-OH <===> CH3-NH-CH3 + H2O
CH3-NH-CH3 + CH3-OH <==> CH3-N(CH3)-CH3 + H2O
Thus increasing the concentration of the reactants will not help on the side of the methanol since it increases parasite side reactions....
I think high pressure will favorise the right side, a little warming(50C) and a big amount (concentration) of NH3 to favorise the monomethyl product(NH3 is toxic and CH3-OH is very flamable!!!!).
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o )"
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted January 30, 2001 02:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the information. I'll let you know how it works if I try it.
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 02, 2001 08:22 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ahhh I have found my note back on that synthesis:
Simply heat NH4Cl (s) dry and CH2=O (or the paraformaldehyde since it is more handable and release CH2=O upon heating).
NH4Cl can be made by reacting HCl and NH3 very cheap and makes a beautiful londonian smogg;an aerosol of NH4Cl (solid). Evaporates and cristallises it before use.
Use an excess of NH4Cl!!!!!!
NH4Cl + CH2O--> CH3-NH3Cl + ...
Maybe an analog reaction occurs when heating NH4NO3 with formaldehyde and that must be the reason why it is forbidden to do so....you will generate then methylamine nitrate (M(e)AN) what may explode when heated and detonate the less sensitive NH4NO3!
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o )"
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 03, 2001 12:12 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MMAN can be made from paraformaldehyde and NH4NO3 by heating them together in a strong, aqueous solution, but I don't think heating it would cause a detonation. It's insensitive stuff.
simply RED
Frequent Poster
Posts: 238
From: HELL
Registered: OCT 2000
posted February 03, 2001 07:13 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In KIPE it is described a proces that uses ammonium nitrate and paraformaldehyde ot make explosive(not described more), it tells that formic acid is also produced. Can someone tell me what is the exact(whole) reaction of CH2=O+NH4NO3, I think PHILOW is near the truth. I'm very interested in that because my chem suplier sells 5liters formalin(35%) for 2 ammerican bugs. Also the explosive MMAN is very good as KIBC tells...
Thanks
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 04, 2001 06:29 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, that depends what you mean by good. It's quite powerful and brisant, but I don't like the fact that if you leave it out in the open it'll turn itself into a soggy puddle, and you need a big charge to set it off.
I tried to work out the equation for CH2O + NH4NO3 --> HCOOH + CH3NH3NO3 + ?, but it's pretty hard. Any ideas, Philou?
CH2O + NH4NO3 --> HCOOH + CH3NH3NO3 + CO2 + H2O
I think the above equation is correct except that it isn't balanced. I tried for a while, but got bored and gave up.
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 16, 2001 09:10 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not far indeed: I know that
CH2=O + CH2=O + OH(-) --> HCO2(-) + CH3-OH
2CH2=O + H2O -->HCO2H + CH3-OH
thus
2CH2=O +NH4NO3 --> HCO2H + CH3-NH3NO3
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o )"
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 16, 2001 03:33 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks Philou.
I don't know why, but I thought CO2 and H2O were made as well. I probably just imagined it!