PLX liquid explosive

[Kekule]

During my searches on the database of the
US Patent and Trademark Office ie found a Patent claiming on a liquid explosive consisting of nitromethane and a sentisizer, which molecules contain a amino (-NH2) group. In the Patent itself sentisizers like ethylenediamine or ethanolamine a mentioned.
My first question is, whether anyone has got some expierience with this explosive composition and if so, what his results were.
Second, i got the idea of using Urea as a sentisizer, because the molecule contains two amino groups. Whats your oppinion abaut using Urea as sentisizer?

[Mr Cool]

I have no first hand experience on sensitised NM, I have done ANNM a few times but with mainly AN as the explosive.

I'm certain that urea would work, I also think the following would: methylamine, ammonia, nitrourea, hydroxylamine, guanidine, and any other amine. But you don't want anything with too much carbon or hydrogen etc., as it would spoil the already negative OB...

[cutefix]

I had tried some similar formulation before,but using aniline.I remember it was 95/5 nitromethane/aniline.The chemicals were reagent grade..It really works.I used a stronger detonator.It gives a sharp explosion pitch and greyish smoke upon detonation.Therefore I presume that the VOD of that is, above 5500 m/s..The important factor of sensitizers is, it can be dispersed properly in the nitromethane.I don’t have any idea if urea is soluble in this liquid explosive….

[Mr Cool]

I doubt microballons would be as good as chemical sensitisers, since you can't make the mixture totally homogeneous and eventually they'll settle out. Unless you thicken it with something... there was a thread on this, I think polymethylacrilate was being used, but IIRC it only thickened it and didn't actually make a nice firm gel.
Bubbling ammonia gas through it or shaking it with ammonium hydroxide should work, by creating the more sensitive ammonium nitromethanate.
I *think* urea is soluble in NM, but I can't remember where I heard that...

[cutefix]

As far as I know only organic amines are suitable as sensitizer.Urea is highly soluble in polar solvents.According to the MERCK Index ,urea will dissolve 1:1(urea/solvent) in water,1:2 glycerol and (1:6) ethanol but insoluble in chloform and ether.Therefore if its not soluble in non polar solvents it may not be soluble in nitromethane.
However,theoritically it is an interesting idea,how about if its dissolved in glycerin,then that is added to the nitromethane.Therefore if we need 4% sensitizer that will be 4% urea dissolved in 8% glycerol..I anticipate that the detonating power will not be exactly identical to the typical PLX composition because of lesser NM content ..

Another problem with these liquid explosive compositions is the requirement of high purity NM(not less than 95% purity).

Regarding microballons it can be used as a sensitizer (a former colleague of mine read it from an old patent).He tried it by mixing these miniature spheres in with small pieces of pillow stuffing foam cut into 4x4x8cm lengths, placed it in a suitable sized bottle(jar) ,then fill it with microballons ,covered the jar , then shake it, in order to embed the microspheres in it( one piece of foam,I think, can adsorbed 5-10 grams of the spheres).He pierced a hole in the square end of this filled foam to fit a # 8 blasting cap .Wrap the foam with a layer of toilet paper.Dip it in nitromethane placed in suitably sized container ,and allow it to absorb the liquid explosive.When fired electrically later, it detonated similarly to amine sensitized nitromethane.

Nitrocellulose with a nitrogen content of 11-12% can gel in nitromethane.I think this is the best gelling agent because it will not depress the explosive power.So if gelled NM based explosive will be poured into boreholes for commercial blasting.I would anticipate this composition will work:
Nitromethane - 90 %
Nitrocellulose- 5%
Amine(sensitizer)- 5%
However it looks dangerous to fill boreholes with sensitized explosive,and this will be a drawback from the vantage point of explosive safety….


[This message has been edited by cutefix (edited September 02, 2001).]

[Mr Cool]

That sounds like a good method for sensitising it with microballons. Did the foam dissolve in the NM and thicken it, or did it just absorb the NM? Do you know?

I think ammonium ions can sensitise NM... isn't that what happens in ANNM??

[wantsomfet]

US Patents 3713915 & 4925505 are interesting to read...

------------------
for best catfood visit:
kangaroooo.cjb.net (http://kangaroooo.cjb.net)

[cutefix]

The nitromethane was absorbed in the foam.However I was not able to check if portions of that activated foam was slowly dissolved by the NM in that experiment.I think the time gap between the immersion in the NM and its detonation was not more than 15 minutes..

I think the principle of ANNM as pioneered by its inventor was somewhat different as how I see it.He was interested in improving the sensitivity of AN based explosives.By using a fuel that has better oxygen balance,and more reactive(an explosive itself) it could improve the sensitization of an otherwise insensitive explosive.Aluminum can also sensitize AN type explosive formulation.I think NH4+ ions will ionize in a polar solvent(like water) and there is an absence of that in this formulation(where complete dryness of the AN is emphasized).I visualize that the NM will coat the AN surface with a monolayer of NM(adsorption).In between the particles of coated AN are also void spaces that can act as sensitizer.If you have tried to mix the NM in AN thorougly by shaking it,thereby removing most of these voids ,you will observe that there appears to be suboptimum detonation or it may not detonate at all..Therefore think that the activation of AN as brought about by aluminum or nitromethane is more of a physical effect(specifically-surface effect) than chemical sensitization...

Wantsomfet, I think that patent#4,925,505 is related to the LEXFOAM(nitromethane foam).I could not check the other patent#3,713,915 because the computer I'm using now does not have image viewing plug in.I think that last patent is interesting also.

[Kekule]

I think the velocity of Detonation of sentized Nitromethane is quite hight because it is a physical fact that shockwaves will move faster through a liquid medium than through a composition or mixture which is a
solid. This property of liquids is one reason responsible of underwaterdetonations beeing more dangerous, of course for a person located in the water, meaning the shockfront has a further expansion than it would have in the air. Would you agree that a detonator in a liquid explosive would be more effective than it would be in a solid explosive? As mentioned before a PLX composition could be detonated by using a #8 blasting cap, but i think, referring to the mentiondet property,that it would be possible using smaller amounts of primary explosive(or booster explosive) to detonate a nitromethane liquid explosive especially using th most effective placement of the detonator in the charge.

[wantsomfet]

While we're at the topic, i tried a NM-based liquid explosive these days. 300ml Nitromethane gelled with 11g NC (single based powder) & sensitized with 20ml Butylamine (the only amine i can get), 5 ml Aniline (VERY expensive for me), 15g 400 mesh AL and 2g glass microballons (Scotchlite S22).
I tried to initiate it with 1,3g HMTD in a epoxy resin/repair tape(?) strenghened tincan and it didnt work. The charge splattered around & nearly set the area on fire but it did not detonate. I think that a.) strong confinement & b.) strong detonators (or even a booster) should be used for this explosives. (Low order detonations could occur i think, so the stronger the initiation, the better the performance. So ANNM-based e.g. would be much better since they detonate at their highest detonation velocity or not at all.)

Uh yes, and the problem was that the microballons always floated on top of the mixture (perhaps not gelled enough) but the Al was distributed finely.

------------------
for best catfood visit:
kangaroooo.cjb.net (http://kangaroooo.cjb.net)

[This message has been edited by wantsomfet (edited September 06, 2001).]

[cutefix]

I see that it was difficult to detonate a multisensitized nitromethane(sensitized by combination of microballons.amines and aluminum powder)-However I had no experience being tried it that way. Initiating with a lesser cap strength(less than #8 is not advisable). I am not familiar also with the efficiency of HMTD as the sole initiator in these liquid explosives. The blasting cap that was used in our trials also contain PETN booster not purely a primary explosive..Remember also that the effective range for amine sensitization is 3-6%.as you increase the level it will start to desensitize it.

[Ropik]

You should use at least equivalent of BC no.8, preferably smal(2-5g) initiation charge of PETN or RDX, make sure you have a good confinement and that the BC is centered in the mix. Also, measure the ingredients by weight, not volume - this can make a substantial difference.

[freaky_frank]

I know I calculated the difference between volume and weight, if you add by volume that's only 3% ethylenediamine insted of 6%.
So I will use 16,6ml nitromethane and 1,34ml ethylenediamine.
I'm out of RDX but well I used 1,5g leadazide yesterday and it didn't work in 50ml....

Okay people, just had a wonderfull detonation!
8,3ml of nitromethane and 0,65 ml of ethylenediamine and 1,22g of NH4NO3 (fertilizer grade with 85% NH4NO3).
Blasting cap was 0,4g of PETN mixed with EGDN and then let that dry again.
And that was in the middle of the blasting cap above and underneath the PETN layer there was in total 1,66g explosive in the blasting cap, and 0,4g PETN so that is 1,26g lead azide and 0,4g PETN then. And the blasting cap was a drinking straw and a little bit of BP on top of the leadazide.
And the PLX was mixed very well and before the deto shaken well, and swirreled around with the blasting cap in the liquid.
And the liquid was inside a test tube of normal size I don't know what the measurments are exactely, but you can see on yourself when you put 8ml inside a normal glass test tube.

[Myrol]

Freaky Frank, nice to hear a Success from you! I think it was a little unpleasant to have so much misfires....but now. It WORKS!

Ok, I think I will make also some PLX perhaps with common Ammonia perhaps with EGDN. The Second Edition should be Nuclearattacks liquid straight Dynamite......definately stronger but normally I want a REAL PLX mixture. Its Weekend now, I had no real chance to get some Aniline out of the Chemical depôt from my learning center :p , umm I must say.....its always the hell of a Fun to "lend" some chemicals out of our depôt. Today, I filled me over a kilogram 72% Perchloric Acid up.....ha ha ha nice to have over 900g Ammonium Perchlorate now :D :D ! There over 11Liters I think I will have some more soon. Acetic Anhydride, pure Phenol, Salicylic Acid , Dinitrobenzene, Aniline and all these loved things are there (probably wating for me :D :cool: ). I know its unfair, ha...screw the innocent!

Back on topic: Yesterday I have done some calculations and get the following result: 100g NM must be treated with 25,5g 25% Ammonia solution to get a fairly instable sensitized NM with 6% NH3. Some Ammonia may evaporate, thats why I included a little excess. The remainig water should separate for himself and can be easily decant in a separatory funnel. Does it help to dry the NM if I add so miuch salt till the solution is saturated? Its worth a try and I post my results.

[freaky_frank]

I used 0,07g lead azide and it didn't detonate PETN and 0,2g did neither.
0,6g did.
And well I did have 1 succes with PLX and never again, today I tried exactely the same as that day.
And it failed. Quite a loud report from the PETN but still no detonation of the PLX.
I every time use 8,3ml nitromethane and 0,65ml ethylenediamine and 1,22g ammoniumnitrate.
Today I used 0,6g leadazide and 0,6g PETN.
The PLX worked before with exactely the same but then 0,4g PETN and 0,6g leadazide.
I'll try it again this evening and mix it at site and use 2g PETN in the blasting cap.

I'm sick of this shit I'm going to do some decent tests, all together after each other at a place where I can easily do what I want without 10 people walking by in 30minutes.
This will be the tests:
1. PLX (8,3ml nitromethane+0,67ml ethylenediamine) (blasting cap:1,5g PETN+0,7g AP)

2. PLX (8,3ml nitromethane+0,67ml ethylenediamine+1,22g NH4NO3) (blasting cap:1,5g PETN+0,7g AP)

3. PLX (8,3ml nitromethane+0,67ml ethylenediamine+3,00g NH4NO3)
(blasting cap:1,5g PETN+0,7g AP)

4. PLX (8,3ml nitromethane+0,80ml ethylenediamine)
(blasting cap: 1,5g PETN+0,7g AP)

[freaky_frank]

The detonations where around 10-40 minutes after making it.
Capped the test tube with tape, sometimes a little bit got out of the test tube, because the tape doesn't seal well.
But well once when I detonated it quickly after making it and with 1,22g NH4NO3 and 8,3ml NM and 0,67ml EDA it did work with 0,4g PETN and 0,6g leadazide.

the ammoniumnitrate is to get a better oxygenbalance.
There is indeed a ammonia smell after NH4NO3 is added, ethylenediamine smells like ammonia too, but not anymore so strong after mixed with NM, after adding NH4NO3 it is going to smell like ammonia again.
I don't know if it get's less sensetive over time.
Can anyone tell me if this is 9ml PLX going off or if it was 0,6g leadazide+0,6g PETN?

http://members.home.nl/icexool/PLX_PETN.JPG
I didn't see a fireball, I did see a fireball at night, a very quick fireball, and well it was quite loud don't know if PETN could have made that hard of a sound.
Anyway people who have a lot of experience with PETN can they have a look at this.
Since I haven't done much with only PETN mostly it was used as a booster and then you don't see it stand-alone power.

[The_Duke]

Has anyone else here tried or had any luck sensitizing and detonating Nitro Methane with HNO3? It works very well for me. I know it’s a pity to waste perfectly fine Nitric acid, but if in dire need, it will work with surprising results.

I use, (with great results I might add);

70% 95-99% NM
30% 98% HNO3

I hope I’m not the only one here who has tried this?

[Kleng]

I've been working with the exactly same thing as you mentioned.

There is no need for using and "spending" your 98% Nitric Acid. I use 62%!

Of course I'know the performance of the explosive is a bit lower, but it has anyway a lot of power still! I use 3 parts 62% HNO3 and 7 part pure Nitromethane (by volume). This requires quite a small detonator. I've used some #6 comercial blasting caps, and never failed a detonation. Planning to use this explosive in a shaped charge.

[nbk2000]

A patent mentioned using Picric Acid, dissolved in the NM, as an energetic sensitizer.

Not only did it sensitize the NM to smaller caps, but also made the resulting liquid explosive more powerful than standard PLX.

What I was thinking was, since PA reacts with most metals to make even more sensitive metal picrate salts, that it might be beneficial to add a fine metal powder (such as copper or lead salts) to the NM/PA explosive in the charge container, so the liquid becomes even more sensitive from the resulting metal picrate, ensuring a complete detonation, even in small diameters. :)

[schweizer]

Using hexamine as a sensitizer was mentioned in another PLX thread, but it doesn't dissolve in NM.

I tried the NM-ethylenediamine method several times, it always works with 1g PETN detonator, even when adding just 5% ED by Volume (by weight, it is 6.25ml ED and 93.75ml NM).

A 400ml charge in a motor oil plastic can taped to a 22cm thick tree cut it completely. I also tried cutting down a 33cm tree with the same charge, but that was a bit too much.

PETN is also soluble in NM, I'll try if 5% PETN will sensitize it. If concentrated acids will sensitize it, maybe sulfuric acid will do so? Its easier to get in high concentration than nitric acid is. If you use 98% nitric acid, 5% will be enough. I hope my english isn't too bad, is it?

+++++++++++

Your english is OK, but you need to use paragraph breaks. NBK

[Rbick]

I was searching through the patents list in links and literature and found some very interesting information on patent 3,713,915 (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=3,713,915.PN.&OS=PN/3,713,915&RS=PN/3,713,915)

It has great information on gelling PLX type explosives and information on the addition of Al powder. Most interesting I thought was the part where the inventor said that diethylene triamine and triethylene tetramine performed nearly as well as ethylene diamine (the amine used in military PLX compositions) and performed far better than ethanolamine, triethylamine or any other amine tested. Strangly enough, the two better performing amines are less expensive than the others, and FAR less expensive than ethylene diamine.

For examples, you can see how cheap they are here: diethylene triamine (http://www.sciencelab.com/page/S/PVAR/SLD2389)and triethylene tetramine. (http://www.sciencelab.com/page/S/PVAR/SLT2446) For full details, I would read the entire patent. Its long and take some time, but in the end its worth it. These examples are on a web site that has a great selection of chemicals, although they are usually over priced. I wouldn't be suprised if you could find them for even cheaper elsewhere.

[Rbick]

Sorry to bring back this topic, but I'm just too excited. I finally got my shipment of 1/2 gallon (About 1.8 L) of triethylenetetramine and ethylenediamine. It took me forever to find the right people to talk to, that stuff is hard to find. Not to mention they were free. :D I don't even have enough NM to mix with these amines. I had to pick them up from the fedex warehouse. The Ethylenediamine has a level 3 flammability and is highly corrosive, which means you're suppose to have a CDL with Hazmat... Well they didn't ask...

I plan on testing both compounds either tomorrow night or this weekend, and of course catching it on tape. Cap will be ETN and AP. BTW, I didn't know pure ethylenediamine emits as much fumes as it does. Definitely use in a well ventilated area. And the triethylenetetramine smells like peanut butter cookies. :D I'll let you guys know how it goes.

EDIT: Success! Just had a wonderful detonation of 45ml of PLX. The mix was 42.75 ml of NM and 2.25 ml ethylenediamine, both 95-99% purity. The blasting cap was 1.5g ETN and .5g AP pressed into a 7x45mm piece of drinking straw. It packed quite the punch. Here are some pics and the video.

The Charge (http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u6/pudgedog69/Charge.jpg)
Placement of the Charge (http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u6/pudgedog69/Placement.jpg)
The Video (http://s164.photobucket.com/albums/u6/pudgedog69/?action=view&current=plx2.flv)

Later this week I plan on testing a triethylenetetramine/NM charge with the same ratio as before. I also want to test the EDA/NM with some added Al powder. I plan on doing smaller charges, this one was pretty loud...

[nbk2000]

If you try mixing a metal powder like aluminum in a thin fluid like NM, you'll find that all you get is a mud at the bottom of the bottle.

You need to add a gellant to the explosive to keep the metal powder suspended.

You can use nitrocellulose, either homemade or in the form of smokeless powder, or fumed silica (cab-o-sil), which is available at plastics/RC-model/hobby shops as an epoxy filler.

2.5% by weight of fumed silica, added to your finished explosive mix, will turn your PLX/Al mix into a thick mud, like wet plaster, which will prevent separation of the components for at least a day.

[stupid939]

Gum works well as a gelling agent. Guar gum and Xanthan gum can be used in 2-4% ratios, and should work well for your application. These are available at health food stores or on the internet.

[nbk2000]

Problem with gums are, if the explosive is stored for any significant length of time, is that gum (being organic) decays.

Also, the viscosity changes with temperature, something that's not true with thixotropic gellants like fumed silica.

[Rbick]

Thanks for the info guys. I'll probably go with guar gum as of now, since I have that on hand. Cab-o-sil will come later when I have extra money to spend on it.

I would like to report a successful det. with 95% NM and 5% triethylenetetramine. It was smaller (20ml), and I decided not to video tape it, but the results were basically the same as the 45ml charge in my previous post. I used a plastic bag as the container and just folded it to fit to the shape I wanted.

The cap was 1g ETN and .5g AP. I figure I can probably go a little less on the ETN usage in these caps, as nitration reactions are time consuming. I may prefer to work with this amine as opposed to ethylenediamine, as this one doesn't give off any fumes, making it easier to work with.

I would also like to add how impressed I am with the performance of PLX. It is very powerful and can be made in large quantities with ease. This is due to NM being available in gallon quantities as well as the amines for a reasonable price. So you get your monies worth. And if you need to, you can pour it into small spaces, such as locks ;). Good stuff...

[nbk2000]

It's actually better to use the amine that stinks, as they are both toxic, and working with something toxic that smells like peanut-butter is asking for trouble.

[Rbick]

By stinks do you mean fumes? I found the MSDS for TETA (https://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/01654.htm) and EDA (http://physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/ET/ethylenediamine.html), its not that bad as long as you don't have prolonged contact or get it in your eyes. And aparently its not carcinogenic, it can only give you asthma... Just have to make sure you have the proper protective equipment while handling. Its good to have found another use for my gas mask :cool:

I figure if anyone asks why I needed these, they are commonly used as corrosion inhibitors in outdoor paints to prevent damage from acid rain.

[nbk2000]

Asbestos and Radiation were once thought harmless too.

We know better now, don't we? :p

[Emil]

Relating to the uses of amines to sensitize nitro methane, I was recently browsing through a chemical supplier and decided to pull up their Ethylene diamine. However, as I read further into their given description, I noticed that what they were actually selling in this instance was Ethylene diamine tetra acetic acid LR.

Now this is not a liquid and is powdered, however I was wondering if it would be suitable to use, beings as it's only sensitizing the nitro methane?

It wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't suitable, as there are so many other amines available for the same prices, and some even cheaper. It's just curiosity has got the better of me here. Any feedback would be great.

[Rbick]

Emil-

That is an interesting question. The chemical structure of the acid has two open amine groups (NHx), which I believe is what sensitizes NM. The thing is Ethylenediamine and other amines used are bases, not acidic... This may also have something to do with sensitizing the NM, as NM is a fairly strong acid (about 10 pH).

You'll have to reseach more into it, but I think I remember reading somewhere that the sensitizer has to be a base to work, as well as have amine groups, obviously. I think on the first page of this thread I have a link to a patent that talks about the best amines to use. I have used Ethylenediamine and Triethylenetetramine in PLX compositions, and both work well. The latter is much less expensive than EDA though.

[lucas]

Regarding ethylene diamine tetra acetic acid, EDTA, it's often supplied as a disodium salt, and it's main use is to complex transition metals as it can form 6 bonds to a single metal centre and chelate it strongly.

I'd be doubtful that one could suspend or dissolve enough EDTA into pure nitromethane to have a sensitising effect. If it were a powdered ingredient in a mixture of oxidisers and fuels wetted with nitromethane it may be useful. It may further sensitise ANMN or other mixtures.

Pehaps a mixture of EDTA and potassium nitrate with NM would be more sensitive than just potassium nitrate and nitromethane.

If anyone had some laying around it could be worth a shot.

[nbk2000]

EDTA= EthyleneDiame (a base) TetraAcetate (an acid) = a neutral salt.

Without the TA part from the ED, you'll not have the needed amine free to bind with the nitromethane.

[lucas]

Yes, pure EDTA is an acid and preobably too acid to work as a sensitizer. Four weak acid groups and two weak base groups gives an acidic coumpound.

However I think maybe the neutralised form may be useful as a poor but feasable sensitizer. The disodium salt is roughly neutral and the tetrasodium salt would be basic. The tetrabasic salt would have free amines and be a sensitizer albeit with plenty of "baggage," by which I mean useless sodium ions and corboxylate groups which aren't useful as a fuel or oxidiser. Since the total amount of sensitizer isn't going to be much, a little bit of sodium and carboxylate shouldn't make too much difference to the amount of available energy in a mixture. I'd expect if one tried it would proove to work but I'd not expect it to out perform any more conventional sensitizers.

[dorian25]

I've found an interesting source for NM sensitizers. Epikure 3223 and 3234 are 100% diethylenetriamine and triethylenetetramine. They're epoxy curing agents and are available in drum quantities from distributors. I didn't find any places that sell them in smaller quantities, but some places that sell low viscosity epoxy might have them.

http://www.resins.com/resins/am/products/epikure/EPI-CURE_Aliphatic_Amines.html