Nitromethane Explosives

[Axt]

I know some nitromethane exposives have been talked to death, so ill try to keep it too comps ive yet to see mention of. Note that all links are .wmv movies, so you will need to download & rename the .jpg extension and open with a late version media player if you wish to see them.

Pure nitromethane can be sensitised by disolving 5% triethylenediamine (hardener in quick curing two part epoxy) to form a <a href="http://www.fnphost.com/sites/good/nice/plx.jpg">liquid explosive</a> simular to the military PLX.

I wont confess to my chemical ignorance by trying to name this explosive salt, but it is formed by the <a href="http://www.fnphost.com/sites/good/nice/react.jpg">reaction</a> of -5°C nitromethane with sodium hydroxide, <a href="http://www.fnphost.com/sites/good/nice/nmsh.jpg">here</a> its ignited in the open, problem is that its slightly damp. Usually it would burn faster, no crackling and less smoke. If someone chooses to try this, be warned that the reaction is very hot and a little bit of NaOH goes a long way!

Anyone else have experiance with nitromethane compositions, or its derivitives to add?

[nbk2000]

I wasn't able to play back any of the movies you linked too.

Have you tried downloading and playing it back after you uploaded them to make sure they played?

[Axt]

I tried plx.wmv and it worked for me, what happens when you try to open it? Do you get the sound with green blocks?

edit: As i just tried -
MP 7 = green blocks with sound.
MP 9 = opens properly.

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/roguemovies/index.html">mpegs available here</a>

[nbk2000]

MP7, no sound or video.

Also, unable to download the mpeg versions from the site. Get a "508 Unused" error, whatever that means.

[FadeToBlackened]

I believe the sodium salt is sodium nitronate, Phil. Z posted about a calcium version of it, some years ago now.

[Axt]

Nothings new to bloody Philou, thread on calcium nitronate -

http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=91

The salt I formed burns a lot faster then what Philou suggests in his post, I believe the reason for this is that I used the straight granules, not in solution. The granules puff up in the reaction into porous grains, lot of surface area = faster burning.

NBK~ I cant give reason to your downloading/opening problems, both work for me. Perhaps the problem was temporarily on geocities end.

[FadeToBlackened]

hehe, yeah. He's a smart guy and I like the way he thinks about various simple things (like heating NaNO2 and NH4Cl in a spoon..or something on that order). A simple concept but I just like the idea.

[Axt]

I should state that im only guessing as to the amine sensitiser in the "PLX" explosive, as its only stated as a "tertiary amine" which could be a lot of things. Its also a rough guess as to the amount added, you try measuring a small amount of resin! Good thing its not overly partial to the % sensitiser or the "whatever" amine it is.

<img src="http://ww1.altlist.com/~52497/rogue.altlist.com/banners/araldite.gif">

"Araldite" is the hardener, happily its the most common in Australia, think its common world wide.

[jfk]

yeah araldite is world wide, its the epoxy i use.

this is what i did for running the movies, Win media player 9

c:\documents and settings\administrator\desktop\>rename plx.jpg plx.mpeg

[nbk2000]

I finally got the MPEG versions downloaded.

I was wondering, how much sensitized NM did you set off in the plx vid? And what kind of detonator did you use?

[jfk]

yeah, i was also wondering the same thing - if you wouldnt mind telling us about the whole set up?

[Axt]

It was 35ml in a plastic vial taped to a dead limb. Was mixed on site, once the two clear liquids are mixed it turns yellow, then you know its ready.

I always use commercial #8 dets on unknown explosives, so I can say for sure thats its cap sensitive (or not).

A good way of measuring the resin would be to use a syringe, then you could inject the required amount into the NM.

[IPN]

I did a little test with KOH + CH3NO2 and I would like to know the chemical formula of potassium nitronate.

I took 1mol of KOH (56,10g) and 1mol of CH3NO2 (61,01g), mixed them and added some water, mixed again and allowed the reaction to end. Then I evaporated the water and was left with crystals of potassium nitronate. (I think they are potassium nitronate)

so KOH + CH3NO2 --> ???

[kingspaz]

the NO2 group is electron withdrawing thus making the CH3 end become acidic.

KOH + CH3NO2 ---> KCH2NO2 + H2O

i think :)

[Mr Cool]

Wow, you mean you mixed a mole of dry KOH with a mole of dry NM, before you added any water? Wow.

"If someone chooses to try this, be warned that the reaction is very hot"
"KOH gives a precipitate with a lot of heat also (fire or explosion to expect without water cooling or if big quantities are made"

[IPN]

Thanks a lot for the info Kingspaz!

I was aware of that but I did the reaction in a beaker placed in to a large salt ice bath, outside and in a "bunker" away from anything living (well except me..)
But still the mixing was quite dangerous thing to do, meaning I could have just waited for the reaction to end…

Oh, and the nitromethane was previosly cooled in a freezer

[Axt]

So, how did the K salt burn? use the video I posted of the Na salt as reference.

[IPN]

Here is a video I took:

http://koti.mbnet.fi/otto2000/Tests/Knitronate.WMV

There you can see how it burns unconfined and confined, the burning is so slow because it was quite wet when I tested it.

[Explosives Chemist]

NOClO4 + KO2NCH2 --> NO+ -O2NCH2 = Nitrosylperchlorate + Potassiumnitronate (in Water) --> Nitrosylnitronate. Is this reaktion possible.

[Mr Cool]

KClO4 has a very low solubility in water, so maybe it would be ppted, leaving the nitrosyl nitronate in solution. If there is anyone who can make the necessary reactants, perhaps they could try it one day and share the results with us?

[Axt]

Nitromethane is often yellow in colour when sold, I remember hearing that it contained an indicator that changes purple when its too sensitive to use as a fuel. I can now confirm that as I just added the hardener in 'titan bond plus' to some of the yellow NM and it turned a deep purple.

'titan bond' has a more promising amine content then araldite, 94% compared to 8%. The extra cost is likely worth it. It only took about 1% amine to NM for the fuel to form the deep purple colour.

http://ww1.altlist.com/~52497/rogue.altlist.com/images/titan-bond.jpg

The charge was detonated on a slightly bigger stick this time, download via last link here (http://www.geocities.com/roguemovies/index.html).

[DBSP]

I must say I'm impressed by that blast.

How large was that charge?

I've been thinking a lot about NM+sensitizer for use in ANNM, rendering it much more sensitive.
Allthough I don't know if it would make any difference scince the AN redily sensitizes the NM in the ANNM allthough I don't know to which extent.

I've also had the idea of mixing sensitized NM with NC to form a sensitive slurry which could be mixed with a small ammount of AN, just enaugh to get it a bit thicker. And use it poured into a shotshell or similar as a booster. Or perhaps in an SC or LSC.

Btw what about mixing sensitized NM with HMDN? just a thought.

HMDN could be used as it is very easy to make in bulk and a bit difficult to detonate on it's own, the sensitive NM would perhaps make it a bit easier to detonate the HMDN scince it would be sorrounded by a sensitizer, in this case NM.

I don't know if any of these ideas are any good, but i just though I'd post it anyway.

[Mr Cool]

Very nice vids!

I'm sure adding HDN to sensitised NM would work fine, although the choice of sensitiser might be difficult. HDN is quite acidic, more so than NM I'm sure, so you might not get the acidic enol form of the NM in solution...

[green beret]

I did some searching on "Titan Bond" and came up with this:

.http://www.bostikfindley.com.au/pdf/msds/bostik_titanbond.pdf

It lists the components of both part A and B and has some safety info.

I am very impressed by this explosive, it clearly has a quite high VoD, does anyone know roughly what it is? Once I get some of this "Titan bond" I'll make some of this explosive and try at setting it of with a few grams of AP. It could be used in the wine bottle shaped charge I guess, has anyone done this? I should get around to trying it sooner or later. Is there any info on the critical diameter of this explosive? I thought it would be similar to ANNM, but a bit smaller

[Axt]

The charge was about 700ml, cost me about 25 bucks to blow that tree down .... well worth it :) . I wanted to keep it off the ground to show how little smoke there is, I find that appealing. Cant be seen clearly but its a rifle leaning against the tree for scale.

Thanks for the link GB, I remember searching for hours trying to find the ingredients for araldite before I tried it, with no luck. I think I remember PLX "only" having a VOD in the 6000's, though it had quite a high energy figure, its smokelessness gives it a very "quick" look.

[green beret]

I was pretty close, I estimated about 800ml. Wow, "only" in the 6000's. Still a good explosive though, considering a charge that big cut down a tree of that size. I guess the low smoke gives it that quick look, as you said. ANNM is about 7000+ I think. Dont quote me on that though. Yeah, the 25 bucks would be worth it!:D

Yes, the link is quite good, I was just searching for info on Amines and that came up, glad to be of assistance.;)

[IPN]

Excellent vid Axt!
The sound was awesome! SWIM is certainly going to test that.

Btw. does anyone know a good video editing software because all I have is the windows movie maker and it can only save my work in .wmv and the preferred format is IMO .mpg
Oh, and did my vid work?

[yt2095]

During a nitric acid distilation (NaNO3+H2SO4) i underestimated the size of my HNO3 receptical.
as it got criticaly full (i use a boiling tube in a block of frozen salt/ice in a plasic container always kept in my freezer). i didn`t want to stop my distilation process, and had a beaker of Methylated spirits close to hand (50ml) i allowed the distilation vapors to bubble through this mix until the distilation was complete (about 10 mins).

there was a color change (purple vanished and went a little pale yellow)
the smell when cooled is a rather pleasant sweetish odor that gives a mild buzz/headache on a few sniffs.

have i made Nitro Ethane with about 2% Nitro Methane, and is it the Pyridine that`s altered to make the pleasant sweetish smell?
or have i just wasted some good methylated spirits and HNO3 vapors?

I`m keeping it in a testube with a cork in at room temp (just in case it IS usefull)

i just KNOW that one of you`ll have the answer to this :)

All the best.

[Mr Cool]

Ethyl (and methyl) nitrate most probably.

[Axt]

Originally posted by IPN
Btw. does anyone know a good video editing software because all I have is the windows movie maker and it can only save my work in .wmv and the preferred format is IMO .mpg
Oh, and did my vid work?

I was put onto TMPG Enc (http://www.tmpgenc.net/e_download.html) when I asked the same question, works well and is free. Yes your vid worked, im guessing it wasnt completely dry in the containment either? When I used the Dry Na salt it burnt with a rate simular to good BP.

[yt2095]

Mr Cool,

thanx, i`ve done some research on Methyl/Ethyl Nitrate (there`s a good section about it here).
as a result, i`ve disposed of it (let it evaporate on a rock).
i don`t think it was heavily nitrated, but the idea that there would have been SOME present in solution was enough motivation NOT to store it in my home Lab.

I`ll just chalk it up on my list of things NOT to do with excess nitric acid :)

[Dr_Pind]

A mix of AN and MNN (Mono Nitro Naphtalene) is supposed to be very similar to The ANNM, incorporating AN and a nitro-hydrocarbon. A mix of about 90% AN and 10% MNN is known as "Bavarit" used by germans in WWII. In some cases it is also mixed with charcoal. MNN could probably be a simple and cheap alternative to NM since it can be produced from naphtalene by a simple nitration (described in Mega's recipe for TeNN, as the product of the first nitration). MNN has a low meltingpoint (about 59 degrees C.) so it seems promising as a cast charge. Does anyone have ANY info on eg. VOD or energy output for this explosive, or references to similar mixes, eg. AN/nitro benzene? I was also wondering how high densities it could be used at. AN explosives seem to be rather insensitive to detonation at high densities.
Any comments are welcome.

[Marvin]

Nitromethane and MNN are different classes of chemicals entirly, so simply using one for the other in each application is not possible.

I'll look for some data but I think the only info I have with MNN is for cheddites (Explosive S and Explosive P). MNN is extremly oxygen poor and doesnt support detonation on its own so its more a sensitiser/fuel than an explosive. NM can work either way.

[palpy]

MNN in AN based explosives is definitely a poor choice compared to e.g. DNT, which can be made as easily as MNN, has very similar melting point, higher oxygen content and is explosive on it's own.
But this is of course something a bit different from ANNM and completely different from amine sensitized NM explosives ;)

[blindreeper]

Before ALENGOSVIG1's website was taken down (lucky I have it as a pdf :D) there was some info on an explosives, AN/MNN/C. He mentions that it is cap sensative to a 3g AP cap. The mixture consists of 250g of AN, 12g charocal and 40g MNN. Thats all the info I have on this :(

[Dr_Pind]

That is the mix I was reffering to. Thanx Blindreeper :)
So thats why I haven't been able to find his page. I've been serching everywhere for it! Luckily I made a print of it a long time ago. So, does anyone know if he is planning on reestablishing his page?

[PhoeniX_KEA]

I'm a mechanical engineer and not a chemist but I have an unquenchable hunger for anything that goes fast, burns, explodes, shoots, makes loud noises, etc. I really enjoy reading how you guys can create these mixtures much like I create machines in my work.
My experience with Nitromethane besides racing a Nitromethane Fuel Drag Bike has been with 2 types of explosives.

1) Tannerite NitroSticks: 1/2 lb. AnNm using 100% explosive grade Nitro capable of dislodging the toughest of tree stumps. Since the 9-11 World Trade center the publics sensitivity towards explosives has risen quite high on the Pucker Factor say..about a 9.5 P.F. in my area of the world anyway, so tests are confined to rock quarries and public state lands. Anyway at a cost of about $8.00 per shot it a legal binary system that you can get & use easily.
2) My favorite Nitro mix for reactive targets is
6 parts Ammonium Nitrate
3 parts Potasium Chlorate
1 part Nitromethane 30% to 40% (sometimes I distill the 30% a little bit to make it stronger)

I use PARTS because I take the components to the shooting areas on public land and mix the there in 1/2 lb to 1 lb. targets and enjoy cleaning up the lanscape (clutter). It's amazing to me that these simple components can produce such an enjoyable afternoon of target shooting. Oh yea, mostly I shoot military type rounds ie: .223, 7.62x39, .308, etc.

I don't have any scientific data but can attest that these mixtures are quite reliable and allways perform better than expected. Well that's my 1/2 cent worth.

[vulture]

You mister, are insane and in danger of losing your life!

NEVER mix ammonium salts with chlorates! It has been pointed out MANY times before that ammonium salts and chlorates form spontaneously explosive ammoniumchlorate.

[Bert]

That sounds like the recipe from boomershoot.org (http://www.boomershoot.org/). They have mixed several tons of this for "reactive targets" (great euphemism, eh?) without any accidents- BUT they don't store it. They have had at least one incident where an unshot target left in the field cooked off and started a brush fire after a while too.

[PhoeniX_KEA]

As i mentioned I mix the components at the gun range to comply with the law and provide a margin of safety. I started out using Tannerite reactive targets and at $7.00 a pop I figured there had to be a cheaper and more reliable recipe out there, and you folks have helped alot with my learning. I really like combining shooting with the explosives to get that double thrill when the target is hit. Has anyone thought about taking some of the different mixtures to an event like Boomershoots? It would be a literal blast.

[Rolfiboy]

Try this .pdf file, it is about sensitizing of nitrometane:

http://home.conceptsfa.nl/~sniper/Pyro/Bestanden/NitromethaneLiquidExplosive.pdf

Well if you can use normal ammonia for sensitizing nitrometane, it will be a little more cheap!

Do anyone tryed this with ammonia? I will try a day when i have the time!

[blindreeper]

Would adding ammonia mnot form ammonium nitronate like Philuo made one time? I would think this is a dangerous thing to do seeing as the reaction is very violent with NaOH...Be careful.

[Rolfiboy]

I tryed adding 25% ammonia to some NH, yesterday and it changed colour, nothing else happened, but I din´t detonate it, because i dont have any thing to detonate it with at the moment

[Guerilla]

Did the solution heat up noticeably during the addition? blind, yeah it forms a nitromethane salt, ammonium nitronate CH2=N(O)-ONH4.

I was wondering how such a high content of water (using 25% ammonia) affects to the brisance of this explosive, also shouldnt the excess amount of water disfavour the formation of the nitronate, therefore making it less sensitive to initiation..? But seemingly its sensitivity and performance are near to that of ANNM. :confused:

[Rolfiboy]

No it was cold all the time.

[tmp]

Rolfiboy, the link you posted looks like something out of the CIA improvised
explosives manual. BTW, I wouldn't store that mix of NM and ammonia.
It's something I'd only use immediately.

[Cyclonite]

I found a source of NM, how does 30$ a gallon stack up to other sources forum members have found. Also since this is the first time iv messed with NM I was curious of the proper ratios for ANNM, I believe its around 10%-20% NM but im not sure. How does the sensitivity vary with increasing amounts of NM?

[Guerilla]

Well I pay 22$ a litre for mine (sold for blending rc-fuels). Kind of rip off price, but its pure and sold OTC. So IMO you seem to have a fairly good supplier there.

Around 30% is the maximum amount of NM, after which the AN cant hold all the NM even if activated AN is used. To this point, the sensitivity should be quite directly proportional to the percentage of NM.

[Efraim_barkbit]

I mostly use between20-25%NM,
If I use 25%, sometimes All NM doesn´t get absorbed in my AN.
My NM price equals about 32 US$, so it´s even more expensive here.
but it´s still a lower price/litre then vodka.

BTW, This question should have gone in another thread.

[nuclearattack]

To Cyclonite:

ANNM is one of my favorite explosive (the other one is blasting gelatine), i use it a lot and i think it is very safe, powerfull and practical.
For my ANNM i use the standard KINEPAK ratio of 40% NM by the weight of the AN. I don't bother a lot if the AN doesn't absorb the NM totally, i simple shake the charge before detonate it to assure the NM is well distributed in it.
The Kinepak ratio gives me a lot of satisfaction because is sensitive, easy to initiate and has a good brisance.
This morning i detonated a charge of 220 gr Kinepak. The charge was placed next to (half meter) a motor oil can (size: 35 cm height, 20 cm radius), i was behind a big can (size: 1 meter height, 60 cm diameter) at a security distance of 20 meters. When it exploded i felt a punch on the big can like a hammer, the oil can was crashed by a side and the oil began to escape from the can. The sound was loud and considering the results i think the detonation had a good brisance.
I'll make a lot of demolition tests with Kinepak and i want to compare it with blasting gelatine and other kinds of explosives, i'll post my result if someone is interested.

[cutefix]

Predictably ANNM would have a moderate amount of brisance but probably not higher than PIcric acid or even pressed and cast TNT.

Therefore its will not produce higher values than Blasting Gelatine either which is among the most brisant of the nitroglycerine based explosives. ;)

[pdb]

Nuclearattack:

The charge was placed next to (half meter) a motor oil can (size: 35 cm height, 20 cm radius), i was behind a big can (size: 1 meter height, 60 cm diameter) at a security distance of 20 meters. When it exploded i felt a punch on the big can like a hammer, the oil can was crashed by a side and the oil began to escape from the can. The sound was loud and considering the results i think the detonation had a good brisance.

I have noticed there seems to be sometimes a lasting confusion for some people between brisance and blast.

First, depending on the environmental conditions that may affect the way sound travel up to your ears, the sound of the explosion cannot be a reliable indicator for revealing the degree of brisance.

Second, in an attempt for assessing brisance, you have to put your charge in intimate contact with a strong material acting as a witness, such as a plaque of lead, a sheet of steel or a solid rock, and the diameter of the hole, the depth of the dent or the number & size of the fragments will give you a reliable information. In the case you mentioned, putting the motor oil can as far as half a meter from a 220gr charge makes no sense as regards to "measuring" the brisance. The damage done to the can comes more from the blast than from the brisance itself.

[freaky_frank]

I've just got my hands on some alinine is that also fine for sentizing nitromethane?
It's beta-alinine though...

[nuclearattack]

To pdb:

no i'm not confused about brisance and blast effect but you are right reading my post seems that i made that conclusion because of the sound! However i know the brisance of the kinepak because i have tested it lot of times, i think it has a good brisance for a AN based explosive.

To Cutefix:

i know the difference of power and brisance between blasting gelatine and kinepak but i want to make some concrete demolition tests with them.
I just want to see the difference of the damage between the same quantity of the two explosives, and i want to see how much kinepak i need to have the same damage of the blasting gelatine.
In few words i want to study the beaviour of the two explosives on the same kind of target.
I think it's an interesting item, i will post the results.
A question: should i open a new thread on this tests in the HE section or in demolition and detonation section?

[Mr Cool]

Open it in HE, since the tests are to compare the explosives. The "demolition" is only being done as a means to do so.

[energi]

I tried plx.wmv and it worked for me, what happens when you try to open it? Do you get the sound with green blocks?

edit: As i just tried -
MP 7 = green blocks with sound.
MP 9 = opens properly.

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/roguemovies/index.html">mpegs available here</a>

WOW, plx2 video was VERY impressive.
This liquid explosive demonstrates great brisance and looks to possess a very high rate of detonation. Despite this composition's recorded velocity of only 6000 m/s, i believe this is faster then most homemade explosive compositions because of the nature of the liquid, consistent density, which would allow for a far better medium for shockwave propagation.
We can not let this thread slip away...
Has there been any more succesful detonation of this Amine sensitized Nitromethane explosive?

++++++++

HTML coding doesn't work here, only UBB code. Read the FAQ on how to use it.

NBK

[freaky_frank]

If other amino acids can be used I can try a lot, I've got 2,5 liter nitromethane 99,8% and I get can several amino acids, like alinine, leucine, valinine, creatine....
Are they also usefull?

[Sonny Jim]

In my experience ANNM is just as brisant as blasting gelatin, and a hell of a lot easier.

http://angry_jack.tripod.com/untitled.wmv

That was 130g of ANNM (100g AN to 30g NM) It blasted a thick wooden fence post in half just by being placed next to it. I find that doesnt happen with anything lacking brisance.

Copy and paste it into your browser. Tripod seems to really like being gay.

[nuclearattack]

I really don't think ANNM has the same brisance of BG. BG and ANNM are my preferred explosives and i tested them a lot. BG is far more powerfull and brisant then ANNM, in COPAE is written that BG detonates at 8000 m/s and is one of the most powerfull explosives. ANNM is brisant but i don't think his vod can be over 6000/7000 m/s.
I use a different ratio for my ANNM, i prefer 40% NM like in KINEPAK but i tested some charges with a ratio of 50% NM and i noticed more brisance and blasting power. The charge is also more sensitive even if the difference is not very big.
However ANNM is easier and cheaper to make, it is also more safe because it's a binary HE and you can prepare it a few hours before the detonation, it's not shock sensitive like BG so you can transport it calmly.
Now i'm planning a test with a shaped charge liner filled with BG.
BG has a good vod for a shaped charge use and you need a few grams to perforate everything!

[Boomer]

I read in several books (K+M, COPAE, Escales, Stettbacher...) and also found in my own tests, that BG gets VERY hard to detonate if it ages. This is due to the stuff getting clear, i.e. loosing the microscopic air bubbles that help to propagate the detonation. In straight dynamites (and ANNM) the crystals do this job. For this very reason they used one cartridge of straight dynamite as a primer for gelled dynamites in tropic climates before PETN/RDX sensitised dynamites were invented.

How do you insure a complete (high order) detonation in small SCs with BG? When I did small tests - also with aged NG/MHN plastique - I had it detonate low order. It gave a massive blast effect but did not cut a witness plate it would normally have had no trouble cutting.

[Maniak]

The small sc´s with blasting gelatine are really hard to (high VoD) detonate...
I make BG with 10% of PETN, it can maybe help to high VoD det., but I use it only for low diameter holes, not for steel blasting.
You can use about 2g of plastick with detonator. There is an example from Theory of explosives,1981,VŠCHT Pardubice:

25mm diameter, 40% gelatine dynamite by no.8 det.: VoD=2500m/s

25mm diameter, 40% gelatine dynamite by no.8 det.+2g pressed PETN: VoD=5900m/s

[nuclearattack]

To detonate BG i use a powerfull detonator made with 3 gr of AP powered with a booster made with 3 gr of NG. I had good results with this kind of detonator. Maybe 3 gr of NG is a waste of HE but i prefer to have a guaranteed result.

[Sonny Jim]

Today I tried some more ANNM using 40% NM instead of 30%. I must say it was better, demonstrating superior brisance and leaving very little smoke compared to what I've observed from 30% NM. You see here 280g (200g AN 80g NM) eating a reinforced concrete pole. Easily.

For some reason the explosion video is quite dark but can be made quite a bit better by adding a little more brightness in media player. The charge was set off electronically.

http://angry_jack.tripod.com/untitled_0001.wmv

The file is there but sometimes doesnt like loading remotely. Copy and pasting should solve this, or using the 'save target as'.

[nuclearattack]

To Sonny gym:
it's a good result but my ANNM doesn't produce any smoke. Maybe because i use 50% NM, i have tried with 60% NM and i noticed lot of more brisance and cap sensibility. I really don't know what is the exact maximum ratio for NM but 60% should be near it. Can i have worst performance increasing the NM ratio over 60%?

[Zeitgeist]

If other amino acids can be used I can try a lot, I've got 2,5 liter nitromethane 99,8% and I get can several amino acids, like alinine, leucine, valinine, creatine....
Are they also usefull?


Aniline, not the amino acid Alanine

nitrobenzene, you know.

As for the person with Aniline, that must be hard to get. There are some exotic HE synths that you can use it for, something that uses oxaniline IIRC, Save it!

[Myrol]

For my expirience i would say APAN is somewhat better then ANNM! Ok im glad to see your successes with ANNM and it makes me happy but for me... :rolleyes: ANNM is not very useful! I set off around 1,7kilos with 800g APAN but I dont know why, the Blast was relatively soft and the Sound could also be some grades better, but shit happens my NM is out and Im full busy with APAN ;)

[Sonny Jim]

For my expirience i would say APAN is somewhat better then ANNM!

I find that frankly amazing. Care to elaborate on the specifics of each charge?

[aikon]

Today I tried some more ANNM using 40% NM instead of 30%... You see here 280g (200g AN 80g NM) eating a reinforced concrete pole...

Did you use AP for the blasting cap to set your ANNM off? If so, how much of AP did you use? I tried to detonate my ANNM (same ratios as yours) with a standard #8 blasting cap but I failed. Only after adding RDX as a booster the ANNM detonated. I'm quite new to ANNM but shouldn't the mixture be capable of detonating with a #8 cap?

[0EZ0]

Yes a commercial #8 cap (and less) can detonate ANNM under the right conditions. The Ammonium Nitrate must be free of as much water as possible and in granulated or powder form of low density. As in free flowing and non clumping. The Nitromethane must be of high concentration and should not contain any castor oils or methanol. Although a small percentage of methanol is said to boost the detonation velocity to near the highest capable in ANNM explosives, it says nothing as to whether sensitivity is effected.

When preparing a charge make sure that the Ammonium Nitrate is not packed down or tamped. When the Nitromethane is added make sure that it is allowed to stand for at least 5-10 minutes before firing to allow it to soak into the powder. A common mistake that some make is to not allow the Nitromethane to soak before firing. Misfires will occur if the components are not intimately mixed. Also those who granulate their Ammonium Nitrate from prill form must also consider the wax content which also hinders the absorbtion of the Nitromethane through the final powder.

I would not think that any APAN formulation would be near the power of the ANNM explosives. You must also remember how power is guaged when considering the performance of both types of explosives. Sound produced has little to do with power and is certainly not a very scientific method for judgement. Different methods of initiation also come into play. AP is not a very efficient intiator and you mustn't make the mistake of comparing an amount of AP with a commercial detonator unless you have extensively tested it against the performance of a commercial cap.

[Sonny Jim]

I used 5g of HMTD for the cap. I didnt have any suitable boosters about at the time, and since I can have HMTD made and ready to fire no more then a few hours after I decide to make it I thought I'd just go with more primary. It worked fine, but note that the HMTD was pressed hard into a piece of hose pipe. The charge itself occupied a portion of a cut open beer can, which was initiated electrically next to the reinforced concrete pole. The ANNM was of a thick, but uniform consistency. Fome reason it reminded me of a mass of bird crap.

From what I have gathered, upping the NM percentage into the 40% and above region does not increase sensetivity, but diminishes it. Obviously a bigger cap and/or booster will take care of this, but I believe this is why some have experienced failures with a #8.

I have heard a potential way around this is to add a portion of H2SO4 to the 'traditional' mixture of AN and NM. You maintain your 40% NM percentage, but rather than the usual 60% AN, you only use 40% AN and replace the remaining 20% with H2SO4. Apparently this results in superior NM absorption, and performance (better sensetivity included). I have seen tests conducted to support this theory, but am yet to try it myself.

[0EZ0]

Yes there are many quite attractive ways of further sensitizing ANNM explosives. The sensitization that is aparrent in ANNM is due to the formation of Nitric Acid and or Ammonium Nitronate. Adding H2SO4 further increases the amount of Nitric Acid present. Using concentrated Nitric Acid would most likely be the best performing mix, while most probably being the most dangerous to handle. But with using that, there is no need for Ammonium Nitrate other than for bulking out the mix. Without it the HNO3/CH2NO2 mix should display superior brisance to that of standard ANNM.

Using high NM to AN ratios the general acidity and thus formation of Nitric/Nitronate is lower than a low NM to AN ratio. This supports the observations of decreased sensitivity.

If you want better absorbtion of the NM, first try adding a 5% portion of Methanol to the powdered Ammonium Nitrate before adding the Nitromethane. The NM will be absorbed more easily due to the low viscocity of the alcohol and it should help the oxygen balance while also increasing performance of the final mixture. If you are having troubles with wax, then some petroleum distillate, otherwise known as naptha or white spirit, in a small amount should help.

In my opinion, a 5 gram HMTD detonator is a huge overkill. Less than 1 gram pressed into a thin walled tube should detonate the main charge. Although using small high velocity boosters should produce better results over a small primary initiator. Picric acid, MHN, RDX and PETN come to mind. For those wishing to try shaped charges, I would suggest that you use a booster for the ANNM to increase the effectiveness of the produced jet.

[Sonny Jim]

Less than a gram, yet failures are frequent with a #8? I am very dubious that the 40% mix would go off from less than a gram. I am a big supporter of the 'the harder you hit it, the harder it hits back' theory. Since I don't find making primary explosives difficult, I'd rather use primary in excess than try to half inch a detonation with such a small amount.

I don't have any high concentration HNO3 at present, but I have plenty of concentrated (H2SO4) drain cleaner to hand. Adding that to NM could be a promising idea.

[Guerilla]

You are using too much NM, as after around 30% the AN cant hold any more NM (that is, form ammonium nitronate, the sensitizer) and thus the nitronate concentration in your ANNM stays lower, resulting in less sensitivity. Try a mix of 25-30% NM and you shall set it off with less than a gram...

[0EZ0]

Sorry, I was under the impression that you used a 5 gram cap for a standard 25/75 b.w. ANNM mix. My bad.

Detonations of 40% NM to AN are very well within reach using extra sensitizers and small detonators. It could also be possible if there were some way to form an emulsion that incorporates the two. Thickening the mix with various other agents and trapping gas particles in the mix may also help sensitize it.

High percentage ANNM formulations would be way too expensive for practical use. Although most others would still be quite interested in the results.

I'm sorry if there are a few inconsistencies. My comments are based soley on literature and other members' observations.

[Sonny Jim]

I know higher NM percentages lead to lower sensetivity, but what I was investigating was the effect they have on brisance, not sensetivity. I don't find needing to use a bigger initiator a particularly large hurdle to get over, although I can see how this, in the commercial department, is a much greater problem.

I stand by what I said before though. My 40% charge did perform better than a 30% one I did not long beforehand. I am considering doing a few consecutive tests to try and bring some clarity to this matter though. I plan to fire 4 200g charges, one with 20% NM, then 30%, 40% and one with H2SO4 following the ratios I posted before. I have everything I need for this undertaking explosives wise, thats a doddle, but I find myself more challanged by the need to find a suitable witness plate or something similar so I can compare the damage inflicted. I'll have a look down the local scrapheap for some metal plating perhaps, although I'm open to suggestions.

[nuclearattack]

For my ANNM i use 40% to 50% of NM and i noticed better performance in every detonation test. I use 4 gr of pressed AP for my detonators and all my charges worked perfectly. I prefer to use strong detonators to have full performance.
About adding H2SO4: some days ago i read an interesting post in this section where a member (i don't remember his name) writed about adding H2SO4 in his ANNM. He posted also some videos and pictures of his test but now i'm not able to find it. It seems it is disappeared!

Thinking about NM liquid explosive i have got a question:is it possible to sensitize NM with H2SO4 to make it cap sensitive like in PLX formula?
And what about adding H2NO3?
Another way could be adding a mixture of AN dissolved in H2SO4.

[aikon]

...some days ago i read an interesting post in this section where a member (i don't remember his name) writed about adding H2SO4 in his ANNM. He posted also some videos and pictures of his test but now i'm not able to find it. It seems it is disappeared!

Here is the link: http://www.geocities.com/roguemovies5/

If I'm correct his name is "DBSP"

[cutefix]

I do not see the point of making nitromethane using sulfuric acid. When usuallly its made by gas phase nitration IIRC in the commercial process.
I do not understand either how the sulfuric acid could be suited for ANNM formulations either
Or maybe it will release the nitrate ion to combine with the methyl ion?Its unlikely in normal STP conditions.

If you just want to detonate nitromethane. The simplest way is to add an alkaline substances such as amines and even common ammonia.

It is the same principle obviously with the ammonium nitrate and nitromethane. As there is the possibility that the NH4 ions can be dissociated and interact with the nitromethane sensitiizing it.
The added bonus is that with an oxidizer in tow in the form of the nitrate ion that will help boost the explosive performance of such compositions.

Adding nitric acid to nitromethane is already one of the formulation of such liquid explosives which are be powerful and had moderate vdet as long as ther is a lslight stoichiometric excess of the HNO3.

[nuclearattack]

To Cutefix:

the main problem with sensitizing NM with common ammonia is water. Common ammonia has a low concentration 15 or 20% so i have a lot of water in the NM\ammonia solution. I think all this water will affect the performance.
I found a product called "aniline solvent" i think it is used for painting or something similar. Maybe i can use it for my NM if only the aniline concentration is quite good.
Here you are the link to the product, sorry for the language (it's in italian) but maybe you have seen something similar:

http://www.hobbyland.it/default.cfm?URL=scheda&cod=6901&cat=25

[nuclearattack]

Yesterday i tried making PLX with common household ammonia. I bought a kind of concentrated ammonia solution but i don't know the exact concentration. I made the mixture supposing the concentration was 10%.
The NM/ammonia mixture became deep purple like blood and after one day i noticed some hard and purple chunks in the bottom of the solution. I know that sensitized NM become purple (from aniline i suppose) but i don't explain to myself this purple chunks. What are those chunks?
However i tried to detonate the mixture with a strong detonator made with 5gr of AP. It failed. I know that if you add too much sensitizer it will desensitize the NM so maybe that my ammonia has a higher concentration.
I'll try again!
Any suggestion?

[nbk2000]

There might be an additive to the NM that's added to keep it from being (accidently) sensitized, so you might have to precipitate out all the additive by adding more ammonia and letting it set till nothing more falls out.

At this point, you'd then add your sensitizer in your calculated amount, and try firing that.

[me234]

Could perhaps it not have been a small amount of ammonium nitronate forming, that's what's supposed to be formed to a small extent with ANNM isn't it?

Wait, would it be soluble in the NM?
How much was formed in how much NM/PLX? NBK's idea sounds pretty good though, do you know how pure your NM was, I'm guessing pretty pure from your earlier ANNM posts.

[Zeitgeist]

But, by the time you've neutralised all the additive, wouldn't you have added too much water?

[nbk2000]

Water can be removed chemically by dissicants.

[Efraim_barkbit]

Wouldn´it be possible to bubble ammonia gas through the NM? Can´t be that hard.

[Myrol]

Yes it should work, because Ammonia sensitizes NM pretty good but why not using NG to sensitize NM? A Friend from me had done this! He mixed 5ml NG with 45ml NM and BOOM that was great he said :) He used 1,5g HMTD to set off the NM. How much NM will fine AN soak off? For my 1,7kg ANNM I milled all my AN to a fine powder to give him more Surface for the Detonation! It worked great and I added to 1,2kg AN around 480ml NM (with 5%NG and 2,5%EGDN, yes sounds strange but I had both Oils left and dipped them to the NM). Around 40ml NM were unsoaked so I believe 65g AN will soak 35g NM :)

[nuclearattack]

I think my NM is pure because in the label is written:" 99,9% pure nitromethane".
I can try as NBK says but i don't want to waste my NM in the case of a failure, i'll try sensitizing NM with NG. I think 6% of NG by weight should be ok.
An active sensitizer should also improve the brisance and performance of this kind of PLX, i think is possible to rise the NG ratio to have more output power. But what about the oxygen balance? Isn't it in excess? Maybe is possible to use this oxygen excess adding a fuel like toluene.

[Desmikes]

If my math is correct, 1:3.7 NM:NG ratio by weight (7:1 NM:NG by moles) would be the optimal amount as far as O2 balance goes. As you can see 6% of NG isn't going to leave you with any left over O2.
I'm thinking NG+NM+NC would make a dense, powerful plastique...

[hereno]

Taking (from memory) NM at -39% and NG at +3.5% your ratio for OB is actually closer to 11:1 NG to NM! and its actually needed somewhere near this amount to be sensitive enough to detonation from a #8 cap. NG is NOT a good sensitiser for NM unless you find a way of incorporating air voids into the mix. If not, your desensitising NG instead of sensitising your NM.

NG+NM+NC, sure it will be powerful, but not as much as NG+NC is already, and a whole lot less sensitive! No #8 will fire that at max density.

[nuclearattack]

Adding NM to blasting gelatine is usefull only if you don't want to use a lot of NG but you will lose lot of power.
However i'm thinking about another possibility:BG becomes stiffer during storage and this causes less sensibility to initiation. Maybe adding a bit of NM will maintain BG more elastic and easy to initiate?
NM is usefull to gelatinize faster NC and then you can add NG, if you store it in an airtight container (to prevent NM evaporation) BG should be more elastic. In the other side there is also to consider that NM is not sensitive, but if you add only a bit (only the minimum quantity to gelatinize NC) it shouldn't affect BG sensibility.

[SweNMFan]

The first NM PLASTIQUE in Kitchen Improvised Explosives 2 is a real blast.. :rolleyes: Just added ingredians in a ziplock bag and kneded it, Used a 3 grams HMTD det first time and a 2 Grams 2nd time.. Full detonation both times.. Both charges were about 90 grams .. No flash but a very loud bang.. Louder than a handgrenade.. or a 125grams TNT stick.. did blow a 1 m hole in the lawn.. not very deep but stripped the grass..

This stuff is realy potent..

[Myrol]

So sensitizing NM with NG work or not? I think this special PLX from NM and NG is somewhat more powerful as an ordinary PLX made by adding an Amine to NM, because you get a higher density and a better Oxygenblance instead of the common "alkai way". 10% NG by mass to NM should make a Capsensitve liquid Explosive. The Capsensitve ANFO's for underground salt mining are also mixed with 12% NG to make them capsensitive.

[nuclearattack]

Yes Myrol it works, i tested NM/NG mixtures and it is powerfull.
If you are interested on this subject i started again the "liquid straight dynamite" thread, well...this is not the same thing because in my liquid dynamite i use a 50/50 ratio but the subject is similar.
And...adding more NG is always better! So why only 10% NG?
Increase! Increase! Increase! The output power is all in this hobby!

[Detonate]

I know, thats off the topic but ive a question: When i looked in my NM can i saw, that there was an oily layer on the top. I extracted it an made a few tests. It is oil! The guy who sold me the NM had put it in a can, which had traces of oil in it. Here is my question:
Do you think there has any oil disloved in my NM? It as clear as water but there could be still some oil in. I dont know the solubility of oil in NM!
if there is any oil left, do you think the oil has an influence in the performance of ANNM?
please help!

[nuclearattack]

To detonate:
your NM contains castor oil, i think that a little content of oil doesn't affect the performance too much. It surely works good for ANNM.
In any case i don't think that the oil concentration is more than 5% because this is the max conc. used in rc motors.
If you want pure NM you can distill it or change your supplier, or you can ask for pure NM to your supplier.
The first time i bought NM the guy gave me a racing fuel mix made with 80% methyl alcohol 15% NM and 5% oil!

[Detonate]

Nuclearattack: No no! This is the second time, i bought my NM from this supplier. The first time it was in a PET bottle and 99,7% pure. But this time, he filled it an an metall bottle. I watched him. He filled in the same NM as the last time but this time he filled it in the metal container! I think (i read it on the old stick on the container!) there was still a bit oil in it.
I made a test: I lit a drop of the NM. It burned normal and left no oil! Thats good! i made another test: i distill 10ml! If there is still no oil left, the NM ist not polluted!

[kingspaz]

5% ISN'T the max amount of oil in glow engine fuel. It can be up to 20% depending on the type of oil used (usually castor oil, a semi synthetic mix or fully synthetic oil) and also on the engine the oil is used for.

[K9]

I've used fairly low concentrations of NM and it still works - you just need to adjust the amounts. You just have to make sure you know what you're getting before you actually buy it.

[trinitride3]

The nitromethane content in R/C engine fuel is available all the way up to 40%. I still have a 4 gallon case that I purchased a few years back from tower hobbies. This fuel is only used in R/C engines that are built to handle the 40% content so its not as common as the 20% - 30% blends. I believe I payed about $60 for the case.

[me234]

What about using a NM/NA/DCM mix, for those of us who are too lazy to distill off our DCM before using the NA. It would probably be highly dependant on the DCM/NA ratio from the nitric acid extraction, but assume something along the lines of 50/50.
Does DCM do anything for NM in the way of sensitivity? I haven't heard mention of it before.
I'm thinking work out the [nitric Acid] in the DCM, and use a slightly higher than stochiometric (with respect to NM) amount of NA to partially compensate for the DCM that's present. I don't really want to waste precious NM on an unsucessful test.

[kingspaz]

Won't that dilute the NM, lowering the density of detonable material, thus lowering VoD...

[SweNMFan]

Someone just detonated a gelled NM + AN + Microballoons charge at about 100g with a 1g HMTD detonator and it realy went BOOOM.. with a nice shockwave and no flash.. dunno about smoke as it is kinda dark outside.. hence the no flash bit..

Someone told me that it was 60ml NM gelled with 7g smokeless gunpowder then mixed with 20g AN (fine powder baked in owen for 45min at 60dC then stored in fridge in a ziplock bag) and 4g microballons.. Kneeded carefully in a ziplock bag.. then just taped around the cap.. supposedly made of a Burger King drinking straw and epoxy..

[Detonate]

I was dreaming:
I made a 22g ANNM charge in an filmbox. I used the NM with the Oil. It made the loudest BOOM ive ever heared from such a small charge! it was very cool!
I think there is a bit oil disloved in my NM but it did not lower the performance of my ANNM! Sure not!

(How can you tell the performance was unaltered? Have you made a comparison with pure NM? - kingspaz)

[Detonate]

kingspaz: Yes i made a lot of these small ANNM charges! They are always in an filmbox. They are usually around 25g! This time i spillt a bit of the ANNM and so it was only around 22g! This explosion was complete and very powerful!

[freaky_frank]

How long did you let the NM soack in?
And did you do it inside the film canister with the lid on?

[Detonate]

I put my fine powdered AN in the filmcanister. Then i pour in the NM. I put the lid on and go to the blasting site. When my electric ignition is ready i make a hole in the lid. Through this hole i insert the ignitor (Nickel-Chrome bridge wire) in the blasting cap. the i put the lid on the filmbox and BOOM!
My dets are made of 10mm od, 8mm id Al tubes. they are filled with AP.
These filmboxes are very powerful and loud.
Soak in time for the NM is around 30-60min.

[nuclearattack]

In my experience 30 minutes are enough to let NM to soak in AN, however i let it soaking all the night before the detonation. I had always full detonations without smoke and with full brisance.
Has someone experience about ANNM storing?
Usually i use ANNM charges in few hours but now i have got 300gr ANNM that i weren't able to detonate (too much people on det site!) 2 months ago.
I sealed the charge with cellophane and tape but i don't know if it will detonate well after all because NM is very volatile and AN is hygroscopic.
I'm planning to detonate it in october so i'll see if it is possible to store ANNM for some months.

[Detonate]

Thats would be interesting! I always use my ANNM after preparing. 30 min for soaking in is enough! Next time i try it with 12h soak-in-time! My ANNM dets with 25-30% NM content are always without smoke. One time i get a white smoke, but that time i used 18% NM!

[SweNMFan]

The NM "plastique" I wrote of have NM / AN ratio reversed.. in a 1/3 ratio.. and it works very VERY well.. I have used a "real" plastique (86% PETN 14% BINDER, you figure out where ...) and it dosent "feel" alot different than that stuff.. I will try to make a hollow sharge with it.. but I think it will be very good (If I can stop the NM from vaporising)

Anyhow a 90-100g GelledNM/AN/Microballon charge makes bigger holes than 190g TNT (well a device with pressed TNT and a thick steel shell..) also the shockwave is greater and abit louder bang..

[Guerilla]

Well, determining the completeness of detonation or whatever merely by the smoke output is by no means accurate, especially in ANNM's case where there is always a considerable amount of smoke released out. Not that it would really matter anyway though, ANNM is the kind of explosive that usually either detonates completely or misfires, partial detonations with the standard ratios are quite rare.

This is a smoke cloud a 2kg charge (30%) gave off, 0.4sec after the detonation.

[Detonate]

I think the weather has an influence in the smoke-production, too! I had an incomplete det. of ANNM (180g)! But the reason was that the NM did not soak in all the AN. So there was pure AN left, without NM soaked in.
The smoke is no indicator of detonation completeness! But i think you can see, how the OB is (balck smoke is carbon etc.) and if your ANNM is underfueled or not.

I had a really wet ANNM too. But that time my AN was not dry enough and not fine enough! My ANNM looks a little wet, but not real wet.
Í never tried a such underfueled ANNM! But if you got nice dets. then ive to try it!

(Don't double post because it gives the mods more work! - kingspaz)

[freaky_frank]

I don't get it when you guys use 25% NM so like 25ml +/- per 100gr AN my AN is than really soacked.
I've heard from people that ANNM is just moist.
But my ANNM is more like a puddy with that much NM.
And okay it is about grams and not about ml's but I had fantastic dets with 1:12 ratio.
1ml NM to 12gr AN.
And 80gr AN with 5ml NM.

[Bugger]

(cut) Has someone experience about ANNM storing?
Usually i use ANNM charges in few hours but now i have got 300gr ANNM that i weren't able to detonate (too much people on det site!) 2 months ago.
I sealed the charge with cellophane and tape but i don't know if it will detonate well after all because NM is very volatile and AN is hygroscopic.
I'm planning to detonate it in october so i'll see if it is possible to store ANNM for some months.
It should be OK if kept well sealed, as neither AN nor NM undergo significant auto-oxidation in storage at normal temperatures. As well as being hygroscopic, the AN may dissociate at raised temperatures; it is listed as decomposing at 210ºC.
BTW AN exists in two crystal forms, tetragonal and monoclinic, having signficantly different densities and other properties.
Bugger.

[nuclearattack]

To Freaky Frank:
surely you have good detonations but try with 40% NM like in the standard Kinepak ratio...you will see a lot of difference...lot of more power!
Believe me, i have best results with 40% NM, this is the optimum ratio for max vod and output power.
Why do you think Kinetics has decided to use 40% AN for their kinepak?

[Detonate]

Is there any difference between the crystal forms of AN? Do they have any influence in the performance of the AN? And how can you change the forms?

[SweNMFan]

Is there any difference between the crystal forms of AN? Do they have any influence in the performance of the AN? And how can you change the forms?

Well if you read US Patent 4093478 it seems that AN change crystal form when heated above 32.5 deg C getting lower density but higher oil retention (From 10% to 30% in some cases..) and makes it cap sensitive (still have to mix it with NM,Oil.. etc..)

[Nevermore]

To Freaky Frank:
surely you have good detonations but try with 40% NM like in the standard Kinepak ratio...you will see a lot of difference...lot of more power!
Believe me, i have best results with 40% NM, this is the optimum ratio for max vod and output power.
Why do you think Kinetics has decided to use 40% AN for their kinepak?

il could be interesting to test a small 40% NM booster over a larger 20% main charge (or an anfo one) to check if the booster has good power to initiate bulkier charges..
:rolleyes:

[nuclearattack]

Glad to see you back Nevermore!
A small charge with 40% NM is a very good booster, basically is like when you use APAN for booster in compound detonators.
But 40% ANNM is very sensitive so 3 gr of AP are perfect for a good detonation, i think you don't need a booster because is better to make the whole charge with 40% NM! Why i should use a 40% NM booster to initiate a 20% NM main charge when i can make directly a 40% main charge?
The only advantage is that 20% NM is cheaper and it is better for moving earth because it is less brisant than 40% NM.

[me234]

I remember having read about the different crystalline forms of AN in 'The Advanced Anarchist's Arsenal' by David Harbor (or is it Harbour?). It was mentioned in the chapter on Ammonpulver, a AN/Carbon mix for use as a propellant. It stated that above this transition temperature of AN (~30/32 celcius) the ammonpulver evolved more pressure when burning and burst tubes (artillery) occured occassionaly when the ambient temp went above this temp. I don't remember the reason given for this, but I'll look it up soon, if I remember. Can anybody who's read the book remember?
Anyway, could be an interesting idea to bear in mind when using ANFO / ANNM etc.

[Boomer]

AN has three transition points: 32C, 86C and (IIRC) 123C. Going through them it alternately expands and contracts. The higher burning speed (burst barrels) was caused by the lower density if it was stored above 32C, which frequently happened inside battle ships where the artillery compartment gets very hot.

The crystal changes are promoted by residual moisture, so the drier the stuff is the less it is affected by temp changes. The above problem was overcome by drying the powder sharply above the second point (e.g. at 90-100C), then sealing the cartridges.

On the other hand, the “activated AN” you can sometimes read about is moistened on purpose, and then dried in the oven at 50-60C, only above the first point. This lowers the density, and at the same time makes it more absorbent. Especially for ANFO this is useful, as it makes the mix cap sensitive. But also for high-percentage ANNM it is recommendable.

BTW the book “Ammonsalptersprengstoffe” by Dr. R. Ecsales is very informative. I got five of his seven books of that series, with the other two following. The come from “Survival Press” who call themselves “Books On Demand” and print single copies, so you have to pay in advance if you order. Does anybody know how these books are called in English, and whether they are on the FTP?

[nuclearattack]

Yes Boomer it is really important the oven temperature. Infact i usually dry my AN at 60°C for 1,5 h and my AN starts to expand a lot, this activated AN is able to absorb a lot of NM and it is very sensitive to initiation. I never had a failure from my charges but only full detonations with high brisance.
To activate AN you have to mesh it with 6% (by AN's weight) of water, then dry it in a oven at 60°C for 1,5 or 2 ours. I repeated this procedure for new forum members.

[Detonate]

Thx! What if you dry your an in the oven @120°C? Is there any difference to the activated AN @ 60°C? And if you have the activated AN and store it a few months, do it lose its activated properties?

[SweNMFan]

The higher burning speed (burst barrels) was caused by the lower density if it was stored above 32C, which frequently happened inside battle ships where the artillery compartment gets very hot.


What do you mean? That warships regularly have shells detonating in barrel or?? Since the shells isn't in the turrent for very long (Atleast not on a battleship) I don't see how the AN have the time to change crystal form.. as the shells is kept far below..

http://battleships.freewebsitehosting.com/images/16in-6.gif

Hmm but we are getting out off topic here..

[Detonate]

Yes back to topic! Glycin is a aminoacid too! Ive heared that Glycin and AN builds a HE. Is this right? Do you think that Glycin can sensitize the NM enough (for No.8 balsting cap)?

[TheArsenist]

Have any of you read the patent on "activated ammonium nitrate"?
http://164.195.100.11/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=4093478.WKU.&OS=PN/4093478&RS=PN/4093478

If you are having trouble making AN absorb all the NM you could substitute some of the NM for a benzene like xylene (dimethylbenzene). When using straight NM as sentyziser you need 33% NM to reach the oxygen balance where all oxygen provided by AN is used by the NM. The problem is that the AN can not absorb it all so the mixture becomes uneven perhaps with more of the NM lying at the bottom of the container and not enough at the top, which makes it more difficult to optain a good detonation.

If you substitute some of the NM with xylene you don't need as big a volume of fuel and synteziser as with straight NM to reacth the oxygen balance.

If you use 3.2% xyelen you only need 15% NM to reach the oxygen balance. Using activated AN this mixture should be detonable with a #6 cap according to the patent description. Not using activated AN this would probably also be detonable but with a larger detonator.

Using activated AN ofcourse increases the AN's fuel absorbtion rate by decreasing its density to as low as 0.56g/cc, which could be good if you use straight NM. AMNM, 33:66.


What is the density of dry and unpressed AP btw?

[Detonate]

So what about Glycine? Is it possible to sensitize the NM (or possibly the AN) enough? Glycine is amino acetic acid (i think).

[TheArsenist]

Its confusing that you say e.g "I used 40% NM with 100g AN and 40g NM...", actually thats only 28.5% NM.
total weight=100g AN + 40g NM = 140g
percent of NM = 40g/140g = 0.285 = 28.5%

So when people say they have a better result using "40% NM" I have no doubt its true IF they used 40g NM and 100g AN because the actual NM ratio is 28.5% which is bvery close to the optimal oxygen balance.

Remember that e.g. a 40% NM mix is 40g NM and 60g AN, not 100g AN.

If you canculate the oxygen balanced mixture ratios of AN and NM, which in theory should be the best mix, the NM percent is 33.5%. E.g. 76.5g AN and 33.5g NM.

2 NH4NO3 --> 2 N2 + 4 H2O + O2 (1 mole if Oxygen in exces per 1 mole of AN)
2 CH3NO2 + 3 O --> N2 + 2 CO2 + 3 H2O (requires 1½ mole of oxygen per 1 mole of NM)

So for each mole of NM we need 1 mole of AN to provide the needed oxygen.

AN = NH4NO3 = 80 g/mol
NM = CH3NO2 = 61 g/mol

1 mole NM (61g) requires 80*1½=120g of AN. The percent ratios are:

NM: 61/(120+61) = 33.7%
AN: 120/(120+61) = 66.2%

To make AN able to absorb that much NM one has to use AN of a low density. Remember the ratios are by weight as always.

[SweNMFan]

Was reading the Mujahideen Explosives Handbook.pdf and found this NM tip in it..

13.2.8 Important note about Nitro Methane (CH3NO2) preparation
Stir the whole mix for 1 minute in an ice bath after mixing of the last substance.
Never heat it. (If y mistake it gets hot it will explode and if it is dropped on the floor
the same will happen. Therefore if it starts getting hot immediately transfer it in a
cool place to cool it down. Handle it with care avoiding any shock).
It is a very strong poison, do not touch it. Never touch it’s apparatus before washing
it. It reacts with skin and the person affected will be killed in 36 hours.


Guess that I would be dead then.. Wonder what NM they cook up in afganistan..

[nuclearattack]

Don't believe to this crap books, it's only shit!
I should be died 100 times if this fucking shit is true!

[Myrol]

Nuclearattack was right! NM isn't that toxic like mentioned in this crapbook! Only large amounts NM-vapors should be having an effect to your health but I dont think you breathe your NM like a Gluesniffler :p Back to topic: Last weekend I've got a surprisingly good result with Aluminized APAN. I prepared four Shaped Charges with 30g APANAl per Charge. The APANAl had a ratio of 78% AN, 10% AP and 12% Al. The Performance was better than expected. It made a Shockwave as hard as ANNM. Normal APAN is never possible to make such a pressure. Today I will make a bigger test and hopefully soon if I have again some NM I will test that with ANNM. A ratio of 70% AN 15% NM and 15% Al should boost this Explosive like the way with APAN. Andyboy: If you're here. What was your impression from ordinary ANNM compared with ANNMAl? I watched a lot of your videos but the Sound was very bad so I have no Idea how it really was? The 12% Al APANAl made also a clear orange Flash and a nice Thunder. Im sure the Aluminium increases the power and I have a lot of Al powder, so I will use alot of Aluminized Explosives :D

[TheArsenist]

In the US patent description on "activated" AN it states that the prilles used must be mesh +18. Mesh 18 means that 18 grains lined up on a straight line measures 1 inch of lenght. Mesh is the number of grains per inch.

My fertilizer AN prills are roughtly about 14 mesh and thus when mixed with NM and xylene accoarding to the patent not detonable with a #6 cap.

The fertilizer prills are designed NOT to be detonable in ANFO atleast but I doubt they have taken activated ANNM into consideration.

AN fertilizer (99.5% pure. NPK=34.5-0-0) is very easily accesable in my country, but NM is VERY hard to obtain. Its actually banned but you can get a special licence to buy it in small scale if you have a very good reason, and its very expensive about $30 per liter.

Has somebody had succes with activating AN fertilizer prills straight from the bag and mixing it with NM and Xylene perhaps?

[SweNMFan]

I meant it as a joke.. as much else in the Mujahideen Explosives Handbook .. The author will probably blow himself up before ever finishing the handbook..

[TheArsenist]

Has somebody tried to substitude a small part of the fuel in ANFO with NM to make it more sensitive. Like if you substitude only a very small percentage of the fuel with the oxygen equivalent amount of NM, this means that you e.g. instead of using AN/ Xyelene (or diesel fuel or whatever) in the ratios 94/6 you use AN/Xyelen/NM in the ratio 90/5/5. This ratio preserves the oxygen balance like in 6% ANFO while making the mixture more sensitive I imagine because of the NM. The main advantage is that the total amount of fluid (fuel + sentyziser) is only 10% (by weight) where as regular ANNM is 33% NM fluid by weight. If you use prilled AN the prills will only absorb 10% of fuel. Its a bitch to grind prills even if you've got an electric grinder cause the AN makes the mill rusty inside and disfunctional after a while.

This is all a theory and speculations. I have no idea if it will work or not.

[Detonate]

A new idea: HDNNM! Hexamethylenetetramine dinitrate and Nitromethane. HDN is an amin and shuld sensitize the NM. Has anyone tried it or can give me some information if it is compatible? Or ANHDNNM. A AN/HDN mixture and NM.

[nuclearattack]

It sounds interesting also because HDN is easy to do.
Will HDN dissolve in NM? This is an important matter in my opinion.
Actually i don't have HDN but i'll take some time to test this idea in the future, for the moment i'm too busy to make others tests that i will post in the next weeks. Why don't you try on your own?

[Detonate]

Ill try it on next weekend. Ill post my results! (shuld i post it here or in the Hexamethylenetetramine dinitrate thread??)

[nuclearattack]

I think you should post here because the thread is about NM explosives and how to sensitize NM. You are using HDN to sensitize NM so there is no doubt!
I'm waiting your results with interest!

[SweNMFan]

Dreamt of 160g NM plastique pressed in a 50mm ID cardboard tube and a soda can Al cone.. Unfortunate the forest only contained trees so the charge was taped to one of em.. The bang was so loud there was no way to do damage assessment.. one or two blue lights also seemed interested.. Will try to do a photo recon in a few days..

[SweNMFan]

Had a look at the tree today, the SC stripped bark over a 40x40 cm area, and there was a hole where jet should have formed, but as tree isn't a good candidate for shapecharges its not very deep.. but I am suprised of the power in NM plastique.. the tree is about 1m in diameter and it is a pine, with bark was about 2-3 cm thick.. couldn't find more than a few tape fragments from the container..

No flash on detonation but a insanely loud bang

[nuclearattack]

Be carefull SweNMfan, blue lights aren't your best friends if you do this hobby!
What kind of composition is your NM plastique?

[SweNMFan]

I used the first NM(P) recipe from kitchen imp explosives 2.. But I have only done "smaller" batches.. About 60ml NM gelled with 6g smokeless GP for a couple of days.. Then dumped in a Ziploc bag.. When I feel like using it I just mix in 20g "activated" AN and 4g microbaloons and kneed it in the Ziploc bag.. The finished plastique have a green colour from my smokeless..

I started using 3g of HMTD to detonate it.. But the last 2 charges I only used 1g HMTD in a drinking straw as a cap.. Never had a partial detonation with this recipe. A 90g bag makes a very loud bang (Way louder than 200g TNT)
I usually only taped the Ziploc bag around the cap. (In my SC I had to cut a hole in the bag and made a cap well with a pen which I taped in place and removed at blast site)

As I have written before.. I have used/been trained on a "official" plastique before (86% PETN 14% Mineral oil) and this stuff is not far behind.. The "insane" thing about it is that I can buy all the components without anyone asks any questions.. (Well the smokeless powder is hard to get here, but it should be possible to gel NM with ping-pong balls or NC) the NM I get from a hobby store and is 99,9% pure.. Not very cheap.. Around $30 litre. But still cheaper that trying to buy the real stuff..

nuclearattack blue lights are rarely anyones friend ;-)

Took some snaps of the tree this morning. Ohh and it isn't a pine, it is a European Larch..

[tmp]

Lacking reloading powder, ping pong balls are the next best thing. Cutup,
these things burn with a brilliant orange flame when ignited and no smoke
or odor during combustion. I won't argue with anybody who uses these
simple OTC items as a plasticizer. FUCK the dream state - I deal in
reality, no matter how unpleasant it is - and it often is UNPLEASANT !

[Detonate]

My last post was in the wrong thread. It contained the HDNNM test. Its under the Hexamethylenetetramine dinitrate thread. Sorry!

[Desmikes]

Today I tried to detonate NM containing 5, 10 and 20 percent of MEKP. The detonator used was 1.5ml of MEKP. I don’t prefer using MEKP as a primary, but I didn't have anything better laying around. Every shot was mixed on the spot in a 50ml plastic tube. No color change or anything unpleasant took place, the two liquids seem to be miscible at any concentration. Testing was done under 40cm of wet earth (pre-drilled holes).
Results: 5-10% shots seemed to just waste my NM, i.e. I don’t believe that any secondary detonated.
20% seemed to have potential, but the results were less impressive than what I would expect from a full detonation of 50 ml of liquid explosive. I am thinking partial det :( .
I would like to repeat 20% shot using better primary. Anyone else tried detonating NM+MEKP with a small cap?

[nuclearattack]

Today i detonated an old ANNM charge stored for 4 months, i did this charge and sealed it with cellophane just to see if it can be stored easily.
I have to say that it detonated perfectly just like a fresh charge, no smoke, good brisance, good earth movement.
It's a good thing also because ANNM is very safe for storing and you don't have to take care of the temperature like in NG based explosives.

[Detonate]

Wow nuclearattack! I never stored my ANNM for a such long time. What NM contet had it?? Was it your favourite 35%NM ANNM? Next weekend Ill make some tests with ANNMAL. I cant get SP or Nitrocellulose :-( So I cant make NM plastic HEs.

[nuclearattack]

My preferred NM content is 40% (Kinepak), i always add so much NM and i always have very good results...believe me try it!
In this charge i used 300 gr AN and 120 gr NM, all this NM helps also to have a better storage.

[SweNMFan]

I cant get SP or Nitrocellulose :-( So I cant make NM plastic HEs.

Should work with high quality ping-pong balls.. and the microballoons is most likely replaceble with freeze dried(instant) coffee.. will try the coffee soon as im out of MBs

[Pietruszkin]

My preferred NM content is 40% (Kinepak), i always add so much NM and i always have very good results...believe me try it!
In this charge i used 300 gr AN and 120 gr NM, all this NM helps also to have a better storage.

ke?

1st:if you want to have 0 oxygen balance you should give about 33% to AN
2cond:your mixture of AN and 40% of NM is not handy? it's also very expensive (for me), so - why do you use it?

ke.
greetings

[nuclearattack]

I use 40% NM because in my tests this percentage gives the bests results.
With a bit more NM you have a oxygen surplus that is very usefull if you add some other fuel in it like acetone or alluminium.
And finally a bit more NM is usefull for storage because NM is very volatile, so even if you lose some by evaporation you have a good oxygen balance.

[hereno]

With a bit more NM you have a oxygen surplus


Ya think ...

As Pietruszkin just said, 33% NM for oxygen balance! more NM and its O deficient, not that thats always bad, but in theory 2:1 AN to NM will be the most "efficient".

Where are you getting this kinepak information from? I think it highly unlikely that they are (were?) using 40% NM.

[nuclearattack]

Well, between 33% and 40% there isn't a lot of difference and as i just said a bit more Nm is better if you want to store it for a long time.
I don't remember where i read about 40% NM for kinepak but it was on a internet page maybe on slurryexplosive.com, however there is this patent:
4,253,889 on roguesci patents archive, it says about AN and 2 to 40% by the AN weight of a lower nitro-aliphatic fuel. Read this patent, it's interesting in any case.

[hereno]

That site gave the only VOD figure I've seen for kinepak, 6100m/s. The tech sheets on that page give the components as AN & NM, but its inventer has explicitly said that its not comprised solely of these materials.

"... contrary to popular belief the solid is not straight AN nor is the liquid straight NM. Alcohol is not used in the liquid, but it does contain other fuels to improve the oxygen balance and optimize energy output." Gerald L Hurst.

My interpretation is that a "fuel" is mixed with the NM to lower the liquid content of the explosive (saturated ANNM won't fire reliably) whilst preserving O balance. I also assume "Activating" it to preserve air spaces at higher concentrations lowers density, therefore not desirable. From the patent one can guess to the added fuel being xylene.

Though of course, I may be wrong and things may have changed.

[SweNMFan]

Tested replacing microbaloons with instant cofee, it works. BUT looking at the hole it made looses 50-75% power as well. So I wont waste more NM on that.. ( I used a 1g HMTD cap and the hole is larger than that..)

[Myrol]

Yesterday I prepared a new sample of 400g ANNM. I weighed out 260g AN and 140g NM but due a lack of time I dumped some more NM in it so it should be around 37% NM.

ANNM with high percentages of NM are always thin slurries. Mostly theres also a unsoaked layer of NM even if you use dry very fine AN. I think I will try the ANNM-Plastique.

Beside me theres a bottle with 25ml thick slime of NC-gelatinized NM. Could be a nice stuff with enough AN. Has someone data about the strenght and VoD of ANNM-Plastique? Its just intresting me because ANNM-Plastique can be packed very exact.

[SweNMFan]

In KIPE2 it say
Detonation velocity is high in the 7000-7500 M/sec. range.
Brisance is good as is the detonation pressure produced. This explosive would find uses in shaped charges and as a
standard demolition explosive.

About the NM plastique (th one that I have described in this thread)

[nuclearattack]

I tested this NM plastique some months ago and it works well for all purpose.
It's powerfull but i don't think that it's vod can reach 7500 m/s.
NC has a vod of 7000 m/s at perfects conditions, NM's vod is about 6000/6500 m/s...i don't see how it can reach over 7000m/s.
I remember that Mr Cool wrote a formula in a post to calculate the vod when you are using a mix of differents explosives. If i'm right it should be an average value between all the vods of all explosives in the mixture. I'm not sure so any suggestion is appreciated.

[Detonate]

Do you think that you can make the NM plastique without microballoons?? How sensitive is it without microballoons? If coffee doesnt work good, what else could i add? I made a bit of NC and now i want to make some NM plastique.

[SweNMFan]

Powderd styrofoam could work, I haven't tested that yet..

Microballoons seems to be the best option, I get my from a hobby shop. About $10 for 100g.. and thats enough balloons for about 1,3Kg gelled NM

[me234]

Has anyone here had any experience with useing NC gelled Nm in a PNNM mix?
If I'm not mistaken, NC/NM/AN is a bit better (read 'more powerful') than straight ANNM mixes.
Any quantitative info on NC's effect on ANNM's brisance?
NC/NM/PN sounds kinda fun. Maybe more so than PNNM by itself.
I'm thinking that the potassium nitrate might hold less NC gelled NM than NM.
Any thoughts.

[SweNMFan]

I never mixed KNO3 with gelled NM only AN, my mix is 1g NC to 10 ml NM and 1part AN to 3 parts gelled NM. And 1part Microballons to 10 parts gelled NM. Detonation sounds like TNT, a 90g charge sounds like 200g TNT charge (Handgrenade) and I have thrown a fair amount of them..

[SweNMFan]

Have anyone played with NM in cold weather? I wonder if sub zero temps affect it..

[Joeychemist]

SweN

I have never noticed a difference in the performance of my NM or NM based explosives in the colder whether. I live in Canada and it’s usually always sub zero temperatures in the winter here, I don’t notice anything different. Do you? And what temperature dose this change occur at? I guess we could freeze our charges before use, then see if there is any difference or variances in power to be noted.

[Cyclonite]

NM does freeze at -29C I believe so as long as its mixed well prior to exposure to freezing temps...Id think there would not be any problems.

[SweNMFan]

I haden't noticed any ill efects by cold weather but I just wanted to make sure.. :) Kinda silly to have your new years fireworks not detonate cause they froze solid.. In my parts of the world the temp usaly never drop to -29C.. Most days in winter is maybe -5C or so..

[The_Rsert]

I think a plastique mixture of 1,2g NH4NO3, 8,3ml NM, 0,67ml ethyleneglykolamine, 0.5g NS or NC and 2ml NG in a test tube initiated by lead picrate and PETN should be a very powerful charge. Or?

[The_Duke]

I found this PDF and I thought it belongs here. I will be uploading it to the ftp as soon as I am able to do so. :)

[nbk2000]

I do believe that this has already been uploaded here.

[Myrol]

Well because I've seen Axt's Videos of Detonating NMNA-mix with great succes, I thought I made something for me too!

NMNA is a abbreviation for Nitromethane-Nitric Acid, so I decided to mix 170ml NM with 70ml NA 65%. Strangely, everything dissolved entirely together. First, I thought some Water from the Acid should separate out of the mix but no no, I was wrong.

So I added around 30g anhydrous Sodium sulphate to dessicate the mix a little.

It worked great, the mix is still in my cellar but after 3 weeks storing there happened somethin' strange. Over the rock-solid Na2SO4 is now an around 1cm thick layer unknown liquid wich separated out from the upper explosive? layer...

I think it's just a saturated sol. of Na2SO4 an water, but because the liquid is very "thin" it could also be anhydrous HNO3 or settled out NM? Any Ideas? The best idea to find out what it really is, is to dry some of the under layer and watching for some remaining Na2SO4 but I don't have the time to do so!

[Myrol]

Well because I've seen Axt's Videos of Detonating NMNA-mix with great succes, I thought I made something for me too!

NMNA is a abbreviation for Nitromethane-Nitric Acid, so I decided to mix 170ml NM with 70ml NA 65%. Strangely, everything dissolved entirely together. First, I thought some Water from the Acid should separate out of the mix but no no, I was wrong.

So I added around 30g anhydrous Sodium sulphate to dessicate the mix a little.

It worked great, the mix is still in my cellar but after 3 weeks storing there happened somethin' strange. Over the rock-solid Na2SO4 is now an around 1cm thick layer unknown liquid wich separated out from the upper explosive? layer...

I think it's just a saturated sol. of Na2SO4 an water, but because the liquid is very "thin" it could also be anhydrous HNO3 or settled out NM? Any Ideas? The best idea to find out what it really is, is to dry some of the under layer and watching for some remaining Na2SO4 but I don't have the time to do so!

[Myrol]

Well because I've seen Axt's Videos of Detonating NMNA-mix with great succes, I thought I made something for me too!

NMNA is a abbreviation for Nitromethane-Nitric Acid, so I decided to mix 170ml NM with 70ml NA 65%. Strangely, everything dissolved entirely together. First, I thought some Water from the Acid should separate out of the mix but no no, I was wrong.

So I added around 30g anhydrous Sodium sulphate to dessicate the mix a little.

It worked great, the mix is still in my cellar but after 3 weeks storing there happened somethin' strange. Over the rock-solid Na2SO4 is now an around 1cm thick layer unknown liquid wich separated out from the upper explosive? layer...

I think it's just a saturated sol. of Na2SO4 an water, but because the liquid is very "thin" it could also be anhydrous HNO3 or settled out NM? Any Ideas? The best idea to find out what it really is, is to dry some of the under layer and watching for some remaining Na2SO4 but I don't have the time to do so!

[Boomer]

This mixtures are normally done with near 100% HNO3, say 60-75% NA + 25-40% of a fuel that does not react, like nitrobenzene, DNT, acetonitrile etc.
So in addition to having unwanted water in it, you have too little NA for perfect OB. Personally, I would not want to work with such an acidic liquid: needing glass containers, or covering everything with wax and hoping the NM does not dissolve it ... :rolleyes:

NOTE: These mixtures are prepared "just prior to detonation" and are "as powerfull and as sensitive as NG". I would not store them that long!

[Boomer]

This mixtures are normally done with near 100% HNO3, say 60-75% NA + 25-40% of a fuel that does not react, like nitrobenzene, DNT, acetonitrile etc.
So in addition to having unwanted water in it, you have too little NA for perfect OB. Personally, I would not want to work with such an acidic liquid: needing glass containers, or covering everything with wax and hoping the NM does not dissolve it ... :rolleyes:

NOTE: These mixtures are prepared "just prior to detonation" and are "as powerfull and as sensitive as NG". I would not store them that long!

[Boomer]

This mixtures are normally done with near 100% HNO3, say 60-75% NA + 25-40% of a fuel that does not react, like nitrobenzene, DNT, acetonitrile etc.
So in addition to having unwanted water in it, you have too little NA for perfect OB. Personally, I would not want to work with such an acidic liquid: needing glass containers, or covering everything with wax and hoping the NM does not dissolve it ... :rolleyes:

NOTE: These mixtures are prepared "just prior to detonation" and are "as powerfull and as sensitive as NG". I would not store them that long!

[FUTI]

Boomer I would be cautious when making that mixture. I agree that acetonitrile is inert but...a friend of mine had an explosion while working by nitration procedure from Vogel where acetonitrile was a solvent. Later I found some description that acetonitrile has tendency to explosive polymerisation in strong acid solution. It appears to be rare, but it can be suficient fro shit to happend only once to spoil our day. :eek:

[FUTI]

Boomer I would be cautious when making that mixture. I agree that acetonitrile is inert but...a friend of mine had an explosion while working by nitration procedure from Vogel where acetonitrile was a solvent. Later I found some description that acetonitrile has tendency to explosive polymerisation in strong acid solution. It appears to be rare, but it can be suficient fro shit to happend only once to spoil our day. :eek:

[FUTI]

Boomer I would be cautious when making that mixture. I agree that acetonitrile is inert but...a friend of mine had an explosion while working by nitration procedure from Vogel where acetonitrile was a solvent. Later I found some description that acetonitrile has tendency to explosive polymerisation in strong acid solution. It appears to be rare, but it can be suficient fro shit to happend only once to spoil our day. :eek:

[nbk2000]

Acetonitrile is highly toxic and absorbed through the skin, so handle it with great care.

[nbk2000]

Acetonitrile is highly toxic and absorbed through the skin, so handle it with great care.

[nbk2000]

Acetonitrile is highly toxic and absorbed through the skin, so handle it with great care.

[Child-of-Bodom]

Acetonitrile is just 'harmfull', nót toxic... I handle it a lot when I do HPLC, and on the bottle is only the harmfull sign.
Skin, rabbit: LD50 = >2 gm/kg; Just don't drink it... :P

Anyway, you have to keep it away from NA, nitrated agents and oxidising agents.
Not the best choise to mix with NA...

[Child-of-Bodom]

Acetonitrile is just 'harmfull', nót toxic... I handle it a lot when I do HPLC, and on the bottle is only the harmfull sign.
Skin, rabbit: LD50 = >2 gm/kg; Just don't drink it... :P

Anyway, you have to keep it away from NA, nitrated agents and oxidising agents.
Not the best choise to mix with NA...

[Child-of-Bodom]

Acetonitrile is just 'harmfull', nót toxic... I handle it a lot when I do HPLC, and on the bottle is only the harmfull sign.
Skin, rabbit: LD50 = >2 gm/kg; Just don't drink it... :P

Anyway, you have to keep it away from NA, nitrated agents and oxidising agents.
Not the best choise to mix with NA...

[Cyclonite]

Started building a charge today....did it a little different though.
I added 40g of concentrated H2SO4 to 120g of dried AN. I let that sit while it turned into a smooth paste. I then added 60g of NM, I put it in a safe place to sit overnight. The seal wasnt airtight as i found out in the morning but i now have some yellow hardened AN with little or no NM...its yellow guessing form the nitric acid. I will recrush and make 2 seperate charges from this today. First I will add NM again and detonate. The second will be a APAN mix.....this will be very small since im not quite sure how this mix wil react differently then normal APAN....More to follow. Im not sure how to figure if the OB is right due to the addition of nitric acid and by no means am I a seasoned chemist....just an explosives guy. So any criticism and helpful comments are welcome.

[Cyclonite]

Started building a charge today....did it a little different though.
I added 40g of concentrated H2SO4 to 120g of dried AN. I let that sit while it turned into a smooth paste. I then added 60g of NM, I put it in a safe place to sit overnight. The seal wasnt airtight as i found out in the morning but i now have some yellow hardened AN with little or no NM...its yellow guessing form the nitric acid. I will recrush and make 2 seperate charges from this today. First I will add NM again and detonate. The second will be a APAN mix.....this will be very small since im not quite sure how this mix wil react differently then normal APAN....More to follow. Im not sure how to figure if the OB is right due to the addition of nitric acid and by no means am I a seasoned chemist....just an explosives guy. So any criticism and helpful comments are welcome.

[Cyclonite]

Started building a charge today....did it a little different though.
I added 40g of concentrated H2SO4 to 120g of dried AN. I let that sit while it turned into a smooth paste. I then added 60g of NM, I put it in a safe place to sit overnight. The seal wasnt airtight as i found out in the morning but i now have some yellow hardened AN with little or no NM...its yellow guessing form the nitric acid. I will recrush and make 2 seperate charges from this today. First I will add NM again and detonate. The second will be a APAN mix.....this will be very small since im not quite sure how this mix wil react differently then normal APAN....More to follow. Im not sure how to figure if the OB is right due to the addition of nitric acid and by no means am I a seasoned chemist....just an explosives guy. So any criticism and helpful comments are welcome.

[hereno]

Are you insane?


NOTE: These mixtures are prepared "just prior to detonation" and are "as powerfull and as sensitive as NG". I would not store them that long!

And you want to crush up your "hardened" mixture of NM and concentrated nitric/sulfuric acid?? then mix it with AP?? :confused:

I think you had better read the last three posts here: http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=2219&page=3

Take note that even with considerably more liquid in the mixture, it still formed a solid mass, so I'm betting your "hardened AN" is still packed with nitromethane.

In the very least, you still have a good quantity of concentrated sulfuric/sulfate in there, so <b>do not</b> mix with AP.

[hereno]

Are you insane?


NOTE: These mixtures are prepared "just prior to detonation" and are "as powerfull and as sensitive as NG". I would not store them that long!

And you want to crush up your "hardened" mixture of NM and concentrated nitric/sulfuric acid?? then mix it with AP?? :confused:

I think you had better read the last three posts here: http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=2219&page=3

Take note that even with considerably more liquid in the mixture, it still formed a solid mass, so I'm betting your "hardened AN" is still packed with nitromethane.

In the very least, you still have a good quantity of concentrated sulfuric/sulfate in there, so <b>do not</b> mix with AP.

[hereno]

Are you insane?


NOTE: These mixtures are prepared "just prior to detonation" and are "as powerfull and as sensitive as NG". I would not store them that long!

And you want to crush up your "hardened" mixture of NM and concentrated nitric/sulfuric acid?? then mix it with AP?? :confused:

I think you had better read the last three posts here: http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=2219&page=3

Take note that even with considerably more liquid in the mixture, it still formed a solid mass, so I'm betting your "hardened AN" is still packed with nitromethane.

In the very least, you still have a good quantity of concentrated sulfuric/sulfate in there, so <b>do not</b> mix with AP.

[nuclearattack]

Are you insane?



And you want to crush up your "hardened" mixture of NM and concentrated nitric/sulfuric acid?? then mix it with AP?? :confused:

I think you had better read the last three posts here: http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=2219&page=3

Take note that even with considerably more liquid in the mixture, it still formed a solid mass, so I'm betting your "hardened AN" is still packed with nitromethane.

In the very least, you still have a good quantity of concentrated sulfuric/sulfate in there, so <b>do not</b> mix with AP.

Surely it's not a good idea to mix it with AP...but i don't see the problem by crushing it...ANNMSA mixtures are not that sensitive and i don't think he wants to crush it with a jackhammer!

[nuclearattack]

Are you insane?



And you want to crush up your "hardened" mixture of NM and concentrated nitric/sulfuric acid?? then mix it with AP?? :confused:

I think you had better read the last three posts here: http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=2219&page=3

Take note that even with considerably more liquid in the mixture, it still formed a solid mass, so I'm betting your "hardened AN" is still packed with nitromethane.

In the very least, you still have a good quantity of concentrated sulfuric/sulfate in there, so <b>do not</b> mix with AP.

Surely it's not a good idea to mix it with AP...but i don't see the problem by crushing it...ANNMSA mixtures are not that sensitive and i don't think he wants to crush it with a jackhammer!

[nuclearattack]

Are you insane?



And you want to crush up your "hardened" mixture of NM and concentrated nitric/sulfuric acid?? then mix it with AP?? :confused:

I think you had better read the last three posts here: http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=2219&page=3

Take note that even with considerably more liquid in the mixture, it still formed a solid mass, so I'm betting your "hardened AN" is still packed with nitromethane.

In the very least, you still have a good quantity of concentrated sulfuric/sulfate in there, so <b>do not</b> mix with AP.

Surely it's not a good idea to mix it with AP...but i don't see the problem by crushing it...ANNMSA mixtures are not that sensitive and i don't think he wants to crush it with a jackhammer!

[bobsuruncle]

Sorry to dig up this old topic.

I used a kitchen grinder to powder 5kg AN (fertilzer 92%) but some prills remain and the powder is lumpy and clumps together.

Will a 60/40 ANNM charge still detonate from around 1g HMTD under these conditions? I have 300 mesh AL powder, how much can/should I add to compensate for the poor quality of the nitrate?

[Kleng]

Try recrystallation for the AN. You can get pure AN then. And 40% NM is too much. Around 25-28% should be fine.

[Rbick]

Wow... A 5kg charge of ANNMAL, thats going to be big :eek: I have had the same issue with an ANNM charge, although it wasn't that big. Smalls lumps shouldn't matter, just be sure that the NM is fully absorbed and dispersed into the AN.

As for the Al powder, I usually make it 5-6% of the charge by mass. I have found this to be most effective, although that depends on what you want... Don't just throw it in there without any measurements. You won't compensate for the poor quality of the AN with the Al, no matter what you do. They are completley different components and do completely different things. AN is an oxidizer (NH4NO3) that compensates for NM's (CH3NO2) lack of oxygen, and Al is just a fuel that uses the same O supply from the AN to burn. Just make sure your AN is activated (SEARCH THE FORUM) and dried properly.

1g of HMTD? No way, not nearly enough... With a charge that size to make sure to get full det. you may even want to add a booster, say about 100g of APAN. If you're not going to use a booster, I would use a much larger cap of HMTD. Actually, I advise you experiment with small charges, say 20g or less, to make sure you know what you're getting into. 5kg is ALOT of ANNMAL. ALOT as in if you are within 5 miles of a town, expect to get calls from the police. Good luck.

[Kleng]

What I usually use as booster for ANNM or ANFO is NM/HNO3. As I mentioned before, a quite poweful explosive could be obtained by mixing NM and HNO3. Read my post earlier in this thread for more info.

50ml boost 2kg ANFO easily.

[bobsuruncle]

Thanks but I dont really have access to HNO3 but only H2SO4. Does a 40/30/10/20 (AN/NM/AL/H2SO4) mix of around 500g sound about right for a booster?

If not I was thinking of a staged detonation, with a 3g HMTD detonator, around 500g ANNMAL in a paper towel role, and then have that placed within the main charge?

I can't really carry out any tests because I'm in the city :(

[Desmikes]

bobsuruncle, AL isn't going to make ANNM much more sensitive. 5kg of ANNM is too much to waste on a partial detonation. ANNM has decent detonating properties, however in your case I would not use fewer than 20g of primary, because it sounds like you don't have much experience with AN that you are using. Any before and after pics would be appreciated; full det of 5kg of ANNM is impressive.

[Rbick]

Yeppers, a 500g ANNMAL charge would boost a 5kg ANNMAL charge methinks :) But for the booster, I would use 5g or a little more of HTMD just to be safe. And if you are crazy enough to do a 5kg charge, be about 10 miles from the nearest town. It should give you time to run before the cops show up...

Search the forum for discussion on the addition of H2SO4 to AN mixtures. There are several threads on this exact issue. It would seem that it doesn't add any power or sensitivity. But just the addition of Al should do fine.

[Cindor]

How are you people saying to someone that is just starting with this hobbie to use 5 to 20 grams of primary (when he said he use peroxides for det.) ?!?!?!

bobsuruncle if you are not a friend of nitrations I'll recomend MEKPAN as a booster, just to use a smaller detonator.

If you can make a nitration PA is a good choice for a booster.

Remember: keep your detonators as small as posible and away form your charges.

Pd: PLEASE! Stop saying "AL", it's a sacrilege, Aluminum symbol is "Al"

[bobsuruncle]

I have already tested a 1g detonator, right now I have about 10 grams but am making around 10 grams more. I dont have access to butanone to make MEKP though. Here is a picture of what I have so far;

http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5560357

Any advice on the booster (placement? what kind of casing to use?) The figures I'v come up with are rough ones.

[Cindor]

Then go for 1g det. and a booster for your booster :P

You may use AN/AP or AN/HMTD as a booster, they are quite sensitive,
1g det. works for them.

[Desmikes]

bobsuruncle, you start to worry me. you said that you live in the middle of the city and you can't test anything... except a 5kg ANNM charge, now you have that timer set up, which is kinda disturbing as well... I sure hope your intentions are clean and pure. Changing the note, thanks for pics; you must have some balls if using a clock as part of your ignition system. The anticipation when using such system is priceless, just like sitting and watching your charge not go off when expected and thinking - now what?

[bobsuruncle]

I'l probably end up using visco for the ignition since I'm a bit worried about putting HMTD in contact with a metal, the timer is really only for display since its hardly reliable and a simple mistake while connecting it to the detonator will probably send me into orbit, I used to use it for KNO3 based mixtures but this is my first HE project.

So far thats all I'v tested is the HMTD, I dont plan on detonating anything more than 1g in an urban environment.

Right now, I'm working on a booster, It'l have to be a 100-200g APAN, which means 10-20g of TATP, but Im taking my time incase I can find some 2-butanone for MEKPAN since I'm not very exited about making TATP, or more importantly; mixing 10-20g of it with another powder.

On a side note, I added a bit (50ml) of H2SO4, which seems to weaken of some of the caking that occurs over time.

[jagster]

So bobsuruncle what is the progress on this project? Sounds insane I would like to hear about what happens :)

[jagster]

I don't know why no one uses rifle bullets to set off these things just as good as a cap and much easier :)

Will do some experiments this weekend just got a hold of some nm :D.

[Rbick]

Probably because a round from a rifle wouldn't set off ANNM. Think about it, you need at least 1g of pressed AP to set off 50-100g of ANNM. AP that has been pressed by a hobby chemist realistically has the VoD of about 3,500 m/sec and releases CO2, H2O, and O3 (ozone) at this VoD. Don't quote me on those gasses, its irrelevant anyway. A round from a 5.56x45mm (.223) travels at approx. 3,100 ft/sec depending on the round, which is equal to about 1,100 m/sec. This round is one of the faster rounds available.

This is muzzle velocity, so as you get further away, this velocity will obviously decrease. At 100m, a 55 grain .223 bullet will be going about 900 m/sec, drastically less than any primary explosive. When it did impact the explosive, obviously no gasses are released by the bullet, resulting in not much of a shockwave propagating through the charge. If you shot a blasting cap with a rifle, that would probably go off, but I highly doubt that ANNM would detonate.

[jagster]

Well, I don't agree with it dropping speed that fast..no way. Look at bullet velocity charts. It would be going at least 2800 or so by then. Also, I use, for ultimate speed, 22-250 varment rounds..can't loose...4000 fps. And I do this usually at 25 yards. Use a short barrol single shot rifle so its probably more like 3800. Nonetheless it will set off prilled fertilizer nitrate with crappy paint grade spherical aluminum perfectly, although not necessarly completely :D.

Will try the ANNM with rifles this weekend. For some reason I think a rifle bullet, although slower, has more effect in different ways then a blasting cap, because of the gathering of powder in front of the hollow point. It has nowhere to go and is compressed and heated instantly. I think I read somewhere on here a discussion about this.

Anyways will post later on about this test.

[Rbick]

Yes, it would be around 2800 FEET per second, or 853.44 METERS per second. 4,000 FEET per second is only 1219.2 meters per second. If you want to use the English measurements, AP pressed to .92 g/cm3 explodes at about 11,482 FEET per second, making your 22-250 rounds about 3 times slower at muzzle velocity. Plus a 55 grain 22-250 round only delivers 2.128 kilojoules of energy at muzzle velocity :eek: (A 500 grain .460 mag delivers 10.17 kilojoules at muzzle vel. and 4.68 at 500m! OUCH)

By all means, try it, I hope it works. I'm just trying to say that I doubt it will. In my experience, ANNM is sensitive but not THAT sensitive. Maybe if you can further sensitize it, like activating the AN and adding Al powder or something. But if it does work, that would be pretty awesome. Good luck.

[jagster]

Oh haha sorry missed the whole metric thing. I usually use fps for bullets and m/s for VOD's. Yea I understand what your saying, I think Al does make it more sensitive will have to experiment.

Its hard to say because simply AN and Al sets off so perfectly at <2550 fps I would just assume ANNM would :D. Will try tomorrow.

[Billy Bones]

Well what's happen dude,I hope you set off your ANNMAL charges with bullets,but my experiance tell me that even he or straight ANNM is just not that sensitive,in the beginning I have failures when using 2 gr. pressed AP detonators on it,so I made some changes.My AN is 34-0-0,which mean the stuff is pure,but when I dissolve it in water,there always a small sludge on the top(the shalk coating),which i suspect stop absorbation of the NM,so I never use rigid container,just plastic bags and tape.Add the NM and molded the bag with your fingers,then leave it to fully absorb in the powdered AN for about a hour and tape it,but not press it too much.It seems everybody have there own ratios for the NM,so heres mine - for every 100 gr. AN I use 15 ml NM and I noticed better cap sensibility after every test compared to the 100gr/20 - 25ml ratio.I no doubt that 10 ml will work too...My NM is 99% pure,the detonators are 2 gr. AP in drinking straws(yes too much,but many tests stated that No.8 detonators sometimes failed to set off ANNM charges). I like the ANNM,but after found HNO3(70%)/NM binary I use AN just as filler when I want bigger,and cheap charges,they are also more sensitive and brisant compared to straight ANNM.I have an idea to gelled some HNO3/NM mix with smokeless powder,or other substitute...looks promising...maybe to add some aluminum powder too,boosting the finished explosive...Any suggestions...

[Billy Bones]

Well,I hope you set off your charges,but my experience told me too that ANNM or ANNMAL is just not that sensitive....I have misfires with 2 gr. AP detonators on straight ANNM,so I move to the HNO3/NM mix and use powdered or prilled AN just to filler if I want big and cheap charges.I have the idea to gelled some HNO3/NM with smokeless powder or other substitute and add Al powder to boost the finished explosive...Any suggestions....

[Rbick]

Well I noticed a lot of people asking what amount of Al to add to their ANNM charges. I havn't seen anyone really give a good answer, so I got bored and figured it out. I'm not 100% sure on these calculations, so please correct me if you see anything.

I'll start from the top.
Mol weights: N = 14 H = 1 O = 16 C = 12 Al = 27
Note: I rounded to the nearest hundreth on all calculations

NH4NO3 ----> 2H2O + N2 + O
These are the products of decomposition for AN. 1 mol of Oxygen is freed for every mol of AN

14(2)+4(1)+16(3) = 80 (weight of AN)

(1(16))100
---------- = 20%
80
Using this formula (16 is the weight of O mol released), we see that AN is about 20% O efficient by weight


CH3NO2 ------> CO + H2O + H + N
This is balanced - CH3NO2 ------> CO2 + 1.5H2O + N - 1.5 O
(All O is used to oxidize the one mol of carbon and one of the H2O, so it needs 1.5 O to complete the oxidation of the C and extra H)

12(1)+3(1)+14(1)+16(2) = 56

(-1.5(16))100
------------ = - 43%
56
Here we see NM is 43% O defficient by weight.

This means that since AN releases one O per mol, 1.5 mols are needed to oxidize 1 mol of NM.

1.5(80) = 120
120 + 56 = 176
56/176 = 32% = approx 1NM:3AN

Now here is AN mixed with Al (ammonal)
3NH4NO3 + 2Al -------> 6H2O + 3N2 + 1.5O2 + 2Al --------> 6H2O + 3N2 + Al2O3

3(80) + 2(27) = 294
54/294 = 18% Al
240/294 = 82% AN

Ok so now I was trying to find the right ANNMAL mix.

6 NH4NO3 + 2 CH3NO2 ---------> 12H2O + 6N2 + 3O2 + 2CO + 2H2O + H2 + N2 ------> 15H2O + 7N2 + 2CO2 + 1.5O2
This reaction would yield 3 free oxygen mols

Now if 2 mols of Al is added:

6 NH4NO3 + 2 CH3NO2 + 2Al --------> 12H2O + 6N2 + 3O2 + 2CO + 2H2O + H2 + N2 + 2Al --------> 15H2O + 7N2 + 2CO2 + Al2O3

6(80)+2(56)+2(27) = 646

6(80)
----- = 74% AN
646

2(56)
----- = 17% NM
646

2(27)
---- = 8% Al
646

or I found this one:

7.5 NH4NO3 + 1 CH3NO2 -------> 15H2O + 7.5N2 + 7.5O + CO + H2O + H + N -------> 16.5H2O + 8N2 + CO2 + 3O2
This reaction would release 6 mols of free oxygen

If 2 mols of Al are added:

7.5 NH4NO3 + 1 CH3NO2 + 4Al --------> 15H2O + 7.5N2 + 7.5O + CO + H2O + H + N + 4Al -----> 16.5H2O + 8N2 + CO2 + 3O2 + 4Al

Final product being : 16.5H2O + 8 N2 + CO2 + 2Al2O3

AN = 80
NM = 56
Al = 27

7.5(80) + 56 + 27 (4) = 764

27(4)
----- = 14% Al
764

7.5(80)
------ = 78% AN
764

56
--- = 7% NM
764

I guess this one would work if you wanted more of a flash or something... But if you see anything wrong with these, please let me know, and I'll change them. I hope this is helpful and answers what the correct ratio of Al to use :)

Edit: Thanks for the corrections Cindor. I still left single O, H and N mols alone, since puting a 1/2O2 doesn't look too neat here on the forum. People will just have to remember while reading...

[Cindor]

6 NH4NO3 + 2 CH3NO2 + 2Al --------> 12H2O + 6N2 + 60 + 2CO + 2H2O + 2H + 2N + 2Al --------> 15H2O + 7N2 + 2CO2 + Al2O3

Nitrogen, Oxygen and Hydrogen are diatomics: N2, O2, H2.
Instead of 2N it would be N2, instead of O: 1/2 O2, well you get it...

[jagster]

Has anyone ever tried the fixor version of NM charge? Just add some microbeads and fumed silica and set it off.

I couldn't get that or ANNM to go off with 4000fps 22-250 :(. So I guess it does not work. Never tried adding aluminum though...but just made some mekp might have to try making a cap with it and seeing if that will work. I don't trust AP :). Left it alone for 2 weeks on a piece of paper in open air and it magically formed bigger wicked crystals just begging to decompose. Has anyone done any experimentation on VOD of mekp? Is it similer to AP or what? Its much safer and more stable though so I'd rather use it. One drop on wood and a torch can lead to hours of fun with a few ml :D

[nbk2000]

Acronyms are capitalized to differentiate them from words.

It's not mekp, but MEKP. Please note this for future reference.

[Yafmot]

First, to SweNMFan, what makes you think adding powdered styrofoam would do anything to sensitize an ANNM mix? Perhaps you're confusing blown polymer foam with syntactics. Microballoons are mixed with a resin (usually epoxy) th create syntactic foams which are generally hard and of fairly high modulus. They're used to strengthen/stiffen areas of honeycomb core in a composite panel. ("Styrofoam," by the way, is a brand name for a structural grade foam used extensively as a core material in marine and aircraft structures; the stuff you're probably thinking of is just expanded polystyrene "bead foam," like in those throwaway ice chests.)

Microballoons are generally made out of glass or quartz, although they can be made of Carbon or even rubber (more for lightening than stiffening). The quartz variety, which would probably be the best for this application, can be had from Potter's Industries (look 'em up).

Be advised, however, that these things generally have a very high aspect ratio, meaning that they're very thin-walled. What this means is that you'll be putting more air than glass into your mix, resulting in more of a cushioning effect as the things break and collapse.

What you'd need, then, is a fine grade of quartz sand. This can be had from any of the fiberglass manufacturers, who generally situate their plants near large deposits of it, such as in the Southeastern US.

As for shooting the mix, I think you'll find that the velocity of a bullet has much less to do with initiation than the KE (Kinetic Energy). This can be determined from the following equqtion;

MV2/K

Where: M = Mass of the projectile, in grains.

V2= Velocity squared, in fps.

K = The constant for these increments (grains, fps).


The other critical parameter is charge density. If your wondrous creation is free flowing, or nearly so, the bullet will expend a small fraction of its KE just brushing aside the mix on its way downrange.

However, if the charge can be sufficiently densified (without experiencing "low budget flight instruction"), much more of the KE will be imparted into the mix.

Over the years, in my dealings with Picatinny Arsenal, Naval Surface Warfare Center, et-cetera, ad-nauseum, one of the critical parameters we had to deal with was "Frontline Safety." What this means is that the ammo, flare mix, propellant, warhead charge or whatever, had to wthstand an impact from up to .50 BMG without detonating. Oh, it could burn (excuse me "deflagrate"), but no high order detonations were acceptable. In other words, maximize dead bad guys, minimize dead good guys.

So this is kind of the opposite.

[Rbick]

Yafmot
I'd like to be the first to say welcome to the forum. Just so you know, the issue of microballoons hasn't been discussed since 2004, so I don't know if SweNMFan is going to see it, or care if he does. The date of the post is in the upper left hand side.

With velocity, doesn't velocity have an equal part in determining the KE as anything else? Its like the good old E = MC2 except the objects velocity instead of the speed of light. Or the actual equation for KE being KE = 1/2m (V^2) where m is the objects mass and v is the objects velocity squared. Are you saying the KE lies more in the mass of the object? Maybe I'm not reading your post correctly, but I'm a little confused.

[jagster]

Ah yes that was just a mistake. I'll be more carefull next time. :)

[Rbick]

I would like to report a successful detonation. It was a 50g charge of the following components: 10g NM, 30g AN, and 10g smokeless powder. The SP contained mostly NG and NC, the other ingrediants I will list later when I get off of work :D. I've seen posts on making ANNM plastique with NC but I don't think I've ever seen SP used.

I think the SP is mixed with mostly NG to balance the O with the NC. The SP was finely ground and added to the AN. The two were mixed in a platic bag using the diaper method. I then added the NM and mixed it around a little. It came out as a grey moldable lump. Only problem was the mix seemed to seep NM a little, which evaporates if left out for too long, so I stored it in a plastic bag. I transported it to the site and dug a 30cm deep hole to absorb the sound. I molded the charge around the 2g AP cap and put the charge in place. I didn't put any dirt back into the hole.

The blast was what I expected, except it sounded much sharper and not as low picthed as most ANNM and AN based charges are. I checked the crater and it was definatley a full det. I had my camera with me, so I'll be posting the video and some pics in a bit.

[Rbick]

It won't let me edit so I'm just going to post again. But here is the video to the charge posted above (http://s164.photobucket.com/albums/u6/pudgedog69/?action=view&current=ANNMPLAS.flv). You'll have to ignore the sound, as my mic is broken on my camera. So it sounds a lot quieter than it was.

Here is a photo of the SP mixed with NM (http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u6/pudgedog69/putty.jpg). I have yet to try just NM and SP but the NM/SP/AN mix looked very similar, just lighter color. As you can see, it is very moldable.

Here is the hole after the blast (http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u6/pudgedog69/crater.jpg). Its kind of a crappy pic and my hand isn't even all the way down and its all whited out due to the flash I forgot to turn off. I was in a hurry :rolleyes:

In conclusion, it was a good mixture. Very moldable and easy to make. I'll do more tests with it later to determine brisance and what not, after I get done playing with my new batch of ETN :D

[jagster]

I can't get the video to work?

[Rbick]

It is in the .mov format, you probably don't have the proper codec. Visit the Apple website to down load it or just seach it on google.

[jagster]

I have quicktime it works fine. It just didn't do anything when I loaded that site. The site loaded but nothing came up where its supposed to be doing whatever.

[nbk2000]

I saw it just fine. It's a flash video, so you need something capable of playing flash (FLV).

[jagster]

My computer normally plays flash fine. It works on other sites. I'm just cursed I guess its not meant to be seen by me :(

[festergrump]

I needed to download a seperate player to view FLVs, too, so don't feel bad.

Here's a newer build of the player I use:
http://www.download.com/3000-2139_4-10505954.html

It should be just what you need and it's free, so... :)

[jagster]

Yea I tried 2 computers at work and neither one worked either. Its messed up.

[Rbick]

I tried it at work and it works fine. I think you're just bad luck ;). Here is the video again (http://s164.photobucket.com/albums/u6/pudgedog69/?action=view&current=ANNMPLAS.flv), hopefully it will work for you.

On the subject of NM explosives, I got bored and tried something yesterday. I made a small cap of .5g AP and 1g ETN, and then filled 4 pieces of straw 16cm in length with pure NM. The peices of straw were sealed off with super glue. I taped the tubes of NM around the 1.5g charge so they were equally spaced around it. From what I have read, pure NM can be set off by a booster of APAN. So I figured in this small amount, ETN should do the job.

The resulting explosion had the yellow smokeless flash that you commonly see in NM blasts. I estimate there was about 4-5g of NM total. I'm not sure what purpose something like this could serve, but I guess if one had an abundance of NM, such as myself :p, it would prove useful as a lock buster or something. I really just posted this because the thread was getting off subject, hopefully this gets it back on...

[nbk2000]

At that small of a charge, how can you be sure that the NM actually exploded, and didn't simply flash-burn?

[Rbick]

Thats definatley a possibility. The charge and the idea in general was kind of a useless. But I am going to try something worthwhile involving NM.

I have a 250ml container I plan to fill with pure NM. I then plan on making a 10g ETN charge which will be suspended in the NM by home made det cord. This probably won't happened until next week, but I'll post the video. The purpose of this is to see if I can detonate unsensitized NM with a small booster of ETN.

I remember seeing a video on the internet of a guy detonating 100ml of pure NM with what he described as a "pellet of tetryl" placed underneath the graduated cylinder containing the NM. Anyone ever tried detonating unsenstized NM before? I think this would be worth looking into, since if you have a successful way of detonation without an added amine, it could save you some money you would have spent on the sensitizer.

[Deceitful_Frank]

Forgive my rushed message but I have soon to get ready for work!
...I have been following this thread for a little while now as I've also recently discovered ETN as a most excellent explosive and am currently investigating its properties and synthesis.
DONT try to detonate your 250ml of unsensitized NM with 10grams of ETN as I am certain that all you will acheive is a fine aerasol of nitromethane and the loss of 280 grams of of an excellent and difficult to acquire explosive.
If however you are using a steel vessel to hold the NM and your ETN is well pressed... 3000psi then ignore this post as I'de love to see you prove me wrong!
For comparison, I had a failed detonation of 180 grams of NM/EGDN 62:38 balanced for CO and H2O with a gram of recrystalized ETN in a 6mm column at 3000psi! A plastic bottle was used so I would blame lack of confinement.
Just think about that.
I think that in the video with the teyryl pellet they foamed up the NM first to introduce micro voids. I am sure that microspheres would have a similar effect.

[Rbick]

Yeah ETN is my new favorite high explosive. I actually have wet dreams about it. Anyway, check out the ETN thread, there is more than enough info in there for you. And welcome to the forum.

Well I guess I won't be trying my previously posted idea. I definatley cannot produce that much PSI, and even if I could I wouldn't go through the trouble. I still plan on setting off a charge of that size, perhaps I will just sensitize the NM with an amine like I'm suppose to ;). Right now my interest in liquid explosives is for the pupose of bypassing locks with minimal useage of explosive. In my last post in the PLX thread (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=191) I mention a patent I found involving liquid explosive and how it can seep into the cracks of a well and still detonate. I would want to use this same effect, just on locks. A NM based explosive of course fits the description of what I'm looking for. Thanks for the info Frank.

[Deceitful_Frank]

Yes, I think this would be a wise move though for me, amines are not easy to acquire... well, not the ones that I've read will sensitize nitromethane. Ive considered trying triethylene diamine which is the active ingredient in epoxy hardener but being unsure of is concentration plus the relative expence, I am reluctant to risk wasting NM and of course risk losing my liberty. The thought of being caught and thrown into jail after a FAILED detonation sickens me!

I would recommend sensitizing NM with nitric acid for your lock cracking exploits but for the handling issues. You could even try one of the most detonatable substances known... Methyl Nitrate.

It has good density, 1.2g/cc and will go high order in the smallest quantities and from the weakest initiation. a number 1 cap giving around 90% performance in the trawzl test as a number 8 cap. It is howver very volatile with a similar boiling point to MeOH, and highly mobile which means it will try to get out of what ever you put it in!

Heres the idea. take some methyl nitrate and thicken it with just enough NC to make it nearly hold its shape... like hair gel. Locate the unlucky lock barrel and securely fasten your blasting cap to it. If using an HMTD or ETN filled penlid you could seal the end with a thin layer of 3 minute epoxy and attatch it end on, just above the key hole. this should easily transfer the detonation shock to initiate the MN.
Then take a 5ml syringe with maybe a 40mm-1.2mm bore needle and inject a few millilitres of your fresh MN gel. When she seems full, light the fuse and take some cover! :D I believe MN detonates at around 6700m/s and with a density of 1.2g/cc, you've got 135kbar detonation pressure inside that lock barrel. Sure, MN doesn't have EGDN's sheer power and density but is much more likely to realize its potential in small diameters and with less than perfect intitiation.

[HemiDodge]

I have been reading around on here and decided to try making some large detonations.

Detonation site is 2 miles from Rock Quarry. Just so happened that they were blasting last Saturday, so I decided to go for it.

One charge was done above ground on top of a 5 gallon bucket. I wanted to feel the full effect and see how loud it would be.

Charge was:

Primary -- 505g powdered AN + 100 grams NM fuel mix (65% NM R/C hobby fuel) and 5% AL.

Booster -- 100 grams Ammonal mix

Detonator -- #5 blasting cap.

Pictures and video. Camera was approx 80 yds back and jumped off the box. If you listen with good speakers, you can hear the echo.


The dirt pile by the pond is the same type of charge. I drilled down about 2.5ft in the center with a post hole digger and packed mud back into the hole. All were fired from approx 150 yds back with electronic firing device.


Here are the links:

Charge: http://s200.photobucket.com/albums/aa216/426Hemi440/?action=view&current=100_0491.jpg

Video:
http://s200.photobucket.com/albums/aa216/426Hemi440/?action=view&current=964c1904.flv

After Det:
http://s200.photobucket.com/albums/aa216/426Hemi440/?action=view&current=100_0494.jpg


Dirt Pile: Dirt is from pond, very dense and thick, pretty much clay.
http://s200.photobucket.com/albums/aa216/426Hemi440/?action=view&current=100_0504.jpg

Video:
http://s200.photobucket.com/albums/aa216/426Hemi440/?action=view&current=e1429f48.flv

After Photo:

Still waiting on pictures from camera. Forgot to burn them to the CD. Will post. Left approx 6 - 8 ft crater.

[Kleng]

One of the better videos I've seen for a long time. At least the last one. Have also been testing ANNMAl. Only blown down a tree with 200g.

I'm thinking of testing the same ratios as you, and probably a bit more this time. Testing against a metal plate seems interesting.

[Cobalt.45]

Compliments on the videos.

The second one threw clods a good ways. Another couple yards and your camera would've been a casualty!

Care to post any details of the firing set-up?

[Rbick]

The link worked fine for me. Those charges were excellent, well done :cool:. Its good to see someone new here putting the information to good use instead of posting nonsense and k3wl questions. What grade was your AN?

[jagster]

The files are no longer there "this file no longer exists" on all the links. :(

[webuyhouses]

The files are no longer there "this file no longer exists" on all the links. :(

Slow down, spaz.

If you wait 3 seconds instead of clicking through the redirector page, the links will work fine.

[HemiDodge]

I used an electronic firing device. It runs off of 2 AA batteries. It says it puts out 8.7J. It has two spring loaded leads that you put the wire in. I spliced onto the leads from the #5 cap with 24 awg tin coated Mil-Spec wire that I got from work. I ran about 100 yds of wire on top of the wire leads from the cap.

RBick.. The AN was fertilizer grade. I grinded it up into a powder, then dried it.

I plan to try removing a stump this weekend. I will probably use more of a charge, probably around 2# of AN/NM/AL mix.

I need to find an acceptable candidate and then bore a nice hole under it. It all depends on the weather and what I have going on. I will definitely record it.

[Rbick]

The forum looks kind of dead, so I'd like to post my results from a charge I didn't test yesterday :rolleyes:. Unfortunatley, I was not in possession of a camera, but I have full intentions of testing a similar charge tonight. The video will be linked to this post later.

The charge was 100g ANNMAl, but I overloaded it with Al for what I was hoping to be a thermobaric effect. The quantities were: 40g AN, 10g NM and 50g Al. The result was what is expected. An extremely bright flash, a loud report and a nice shockwave. It actually blinded me during the day. It was hung in a tree about 1.5m above the ground. After checking the damage, I could still feel the heat on the tree a few minutes afterwards.

For a casing, I just used a plastic bag. The blasting cap was 2g ETN and .3g AP pressed into a drinking straw 7mm in diameter and 40mm long.

Tonight I plan on making a 200g charge with 70g ANNM (25% NM) with 130g Al, making the percentages 35% ANNM to 65% Al. The Blasting Cap will be about the same. I remember reading in the thermobaric thread (http://www.roguesci.org//theforum/showthread.php?t=112&highlight=thermobaric) about military thermo rounds being 30% TNT to 70% Al. And the ANNM having a much better equalibria than TNT may help give a better result. I'll see if I can't find a confined place to detonate it, since these type of explosive compositions are for confined areas (i.e. Caves and Buildings). We'll see what happens :cool:

EDIT: Well I just got back from setting off the 200g charge described above. It rocked. Here are the links:
Video (http://s164.photobucket.com/albums/u6/pudgedog69/?action=view&current=annmal.flv)
Blasting Cap (http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u6/pudgedog69/CapBooster.jpg). It is .5g AP in the thinner straw and 2g ETN in the thicker.
Mixed in container (http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u6/pudgedog69/Container.jpg)
In Plastic Bag (http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u6/pudgedog69/PlasticBag.jpg)
Still photos of explosion:
1 (http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u6/pudgedog69/BOOOM.jpg)
2 (http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u6/pudgedog69/BOOOM2.jpg)
3 (http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u6/pudgedog69/BRAAA.jpg)

[Rbick]

I didn't think this warranted its own thread, as I think I know the solution, but I do think it is interesting enough to report and see what other people think.

I put together a charge of 68% AN, 22% NM, and 10% Al, a mix optimized for CO and H2 gas. The weight of the charge was 500g. I mixed the Al with the powdered AN first, and then the NM. I let it sit for about 1 1/2 hours, not for any particular reason, but just because I had to go pick up a movie.

I dug a hole about 20cm and dropped the charge. It was in a plastic bag inside a small plastic bucket. I had to punch a hole through the bag to prime it. The cap was 2g HMTD and .5g ETN, for good measure. I walked back to my vehicle to grab my lighter (yeah, I did fuse initiation but I can't find my battery!). When I returned, the hole had filled with water, much faster than I thought it would have. I pulled the charge out and it was soaked in muddy water.

Thinking the charge was ruined, I stopped the camera and dropped the charge back into the hole. Figuring that I could just scatter the charge to get rid of the material, I lit the fuse, which was now sticking half way out of the casing. I walked back about 100 ft. and took cover behind a fallen tree, just in case. Sure enough,the entire charge went off. The blast was impressive, the kind that you can feel in your chest when it hits you. Since I stopped the camera, which I'm pissed about, I only took some pictures. I will attach those later. The crater was about .8m deep and 1.5 meters accross.

So I figure it is one of two things. One is that the Al and NM coated the AN, protecting it from the water, which allowed detonation. Two, the water atually aided in the explosion, as in a explosive slurry. I kind of doubt this as slurries usually need a booster and need more precision in mixing. I have also had AN mixtures fail due to water, which is what I expected this time as well. So what do you guys think?

[hereno]

I put together a charge of 68% AN, 22% NM, and 10% Al, a mix optimized for CO and H2 gas.

Thats not near enough Aluminum to reduce the AN let alone the NM to H2 (68 parts AN would need 46 Al, or 2 moles Al for each AN). Theres a movie of H2 CO ANNM + Al here http://youtube.com/watch?v=WElWg2I0xSA

As for the rest I imagine it just wasn't as wet as you thought.

[Rbick]

Yeah the balance was wrong and I don't know why I put that, but I typed it as a passing comment and didn't really think about it. The optimal Al percentage for CO and H2 is like 30-35% or something. I did the math at one point or another, but thats not the point. The charge was a soupy mix, totally soaked.

[Deceitful_Frank]

Yes the first time I worked it out before I had discovered oxygen balance percentages it literally took me hours to come up with 43:22:35. I would imagine this mix is one of the loudest explosives with highest gas volume and heaving power available... if you can afford it!

I have never tried this mix but I'd imagine its on the limit of saturation and cap sensitivity. 70:25:5 is very nice for mixing and spooning into containers. The 5% Al sensitizes the quite damp but very dense 70:25 mix and 1.2g/cc is easy easy to press in a pipe with a spoon.

75:25 straight Kinepak is my poison of choice if homogenuity is of secondary importance to safety and convenience. A 50ml syringe with 4" wide bore needle taking care of beetroot dyed NM dosing duties and the baked AN can be measured and sealed in advance. 60 mesh/250 micron maximum particle size is the standard so I read somewhere but graded testing sieves are VERY expensive.

I'm am of the belief that if you are gonna aluminize your shit then the best Al you can find should be used. For me, 600 mesh German dark flake costs £80/Kg. Not sure what that is $/Ib but it ain't cheap.

[ChippedHammer]

£80/Kg - Ouch

You can get 2 lbs for around $50 from the US if you look hard enough, Indian flake is even cheaper.

[Deceitful_Frank]

Fair play... though do I really want to bring 2 pounds of explosive grade aluminum through Her Majesty's customs?

The five day wait it took to import PE from France was unsettling enough!

[Alexires]

If I had to hazard a guess at why it was so easy to initiate, I would say that the water acted to carry the energy from the initiators resulting in a kind of hydrostatic shock.

As you said, the NM probably protected the AN, some H2 would have been formed from the Al in the mix (not very much, but a little) and the hydrostatic shock acted to set the whole thing off very well.

Certainly thought provoking.

[Emil]

Not that I want to slip this thread off topic, but I am just wondering how thorough are the customs??? I mean do they check every single package, or only if they see a need to. Is it law that the sender has to state what the content of the package is, or does this differ from country to country?

The thought of the customs agents ravelling through your goods is enough to put MOST people off the idea off buying abroad, which is a great shame, because most of the time you'll find there are some lovely things you would love to purchase, however the thought of them being checked puts you off. If anyone can just clear these few questions up in a single post I'd be most happy. I don't want to move the thread of topic.

Also how much PE did you purchase frank???