megalomania
May 9th, 2003, 11:47 PM
Chainsaw
A new voice
Posts: 34
From: Estonia
Registered: SEP 2000
posted September 22, 2000 12:42 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Has anybody tried to make it at home???
from homemade(KNO3 + H2SO4 conc) HNO3 and fuel tablets....
i have tried to make it 3 times.... no crystals will form after diluting solution with cold water.... i waited 1 hour... still nothing.
why it wont work? does the acid must be 99% or somethin... or maybe all fuel tablets don't contain methamine?
Starforce
Frequent Poster
Posts: 46
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted September 22, 2000 01:48 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You must be have pure menthamin and you must the solution head up 70°C when you have adding all the menthamin to oxidise all than you have RDX
10fingers
Frequent Poster
Posts: 442
From: USA
Registered: SEP 2000
posted September 22, 2000 03:56 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*
[This message has been edited by 10fingers (edited July 19, 2001).]
Bitter
Frequent Poster
Posts: 293
From: 11 Downing Street, London, England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted September 22, 2000 03:58 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can't you make it using nitric acid and hexamine ? It would be easier would'nt it ?
megalomania
Administrator
Posts: 653
From: USA
Registered: SEP 2000
posted September 23, 2000 01:04 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually, that is the procedure he is using. He made his own nitric acid from KNO3 + H2SO4 and methenamine is a synonym for hexamine.
------------------
For the most comprehensive and informative web site on explosives and related topics, go to Megalomania's Explosives and Stuff at http://surf.to/megalomania
Chainsaw
A new voice
Posts: 34
From: Estonia
Registered: SEP 2000
posted September 23, 2000 05:46 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
one possibility... maybe nowdays they wanna make health and envirnoment friendly tablets and they don't put hexamine in it...
BTW i tried yesterday for the 4-th time... (this time i used HNO3 from lab... it is supposed to be pure and concentrated... at least when i pour it it gives a bit white fumes... like water vapor) i heated up to 80-85 celsius and holded at this temperature for 25 minutes... result: still not even one crystal of RDX
nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1135
From: Guess
Registered: SEP 2000
posted September 23, 2000 05:51 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chainsaw, send me your e-mail address and I'll send you some info that may help you.
------------------
"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"
Bitter
Frequent Poster
Posts: 293
From: 11 Downing Street, London, England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted September 23, 2000 07:43 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you everyone, but I really am getting fed up of all these experts re-naming chemicals all the time. Oxy-Ethyne welding was the last straw for me.
ezekiel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 110
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted September 23, 2000 08:03 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If anyone wants some hexamine (real hexamine...)fuel teblets in the UK i have quite a few that i don't need and willl sell/exchange.
They are military tabs.
As for the RDX...
You must keep the temperature LOW. The nitration releases alot of heat.
Althoguh different methods require differnt heats - all insist that the acid mix is kept cool most of the time.
If your acid mix isn't generating heat then either the acid is too weak or the hexamine is poor.
------------------
Ezekiel
icq uin :86088379
'Things bad begun make strong themselves by ill'
pj
A new voice
Posts: 13
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted September 23, 2000 11:13 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you use very concentrated acid, you have to keep the temperature low, but if your using more dilute, then you will need to heat the solution (carefully) to complete the reaction. You might try heating to a certain temp and then diluting 5 mL or so, raising until crystals precipitate.
------------------
"The truth will set you
free, but first it will piss
you off."
ezekiel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 110
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted September 24, 2000 05:40 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If your acid is too weak the nitration will either be ineffective or will take god knows how long.
I have never seen methods for synthesis of RDX advising the use of a concentration of HNO3 lower than 85%.
This is because you will get a low yield
A slow reaction (like days)
And you will have to heat the low concentration acid up - which is very dangerous. Strong acid needs no heating...
RDX may seem simple to make but this is a misconception. The steps required may be few but are trickey.
------------------
Ezekiel
icq uin :86088379
'Things bad begun make strong themselves by ill'
[This message has been edited by ezekiel (edited September 24, 2000).]
Chainsaw
A new voice
Posts: 34
From: Estonia
Registered: SEP 2000
posted September 29, 2000 03:43 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For now i have tried it 5 times.... and still... last time i heated it 1.5hours at about 70-80celsius.... (it shouldn't be dangerous... no RDX formed...)
Well I thought that maybe acid is really weak. Does HNO3 need to give red fumes (as many books say)? My acid doesn't.... and at what concetration it starts to give fumes?
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2321
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted September 29, 2000 08:14 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What is the minimum conc. of nitric useable for RDX? Mega's site says to use 100% which might be a bit difficult to prepare without a full blown still. Also I'm sure I read about distilling H2SO4 with KNO3 to get HNO3 in the PMJB (the two bottle method) but I can't find it now in any of the three books I've got. I really just want the ratio of H2S04 to KNO3 to have a go in my improvised little still.
10fingers
Frequent Poster
Posts: 442
From: USA
Registered: SEP 2000
posted September 29, 2000 10:12 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
deleting post.
[This message has been edited by 10fingers (edited March 21, 2001).]
Chainsaw
A new voice
Posts: 34
From: Estonia
Registered: SEP 2000
posted September 30, 2000 12:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I made HNO3 by the arnarch book...
(joined 2 bottles... and so on.... maybe making it with still is better (2 meters of pipe thru bucket of ice))
but in what part of PMJB is it described?
I have only the 1-st part.
Lonegunmen
A new voice
Posts: 32
From: Germany
Registered: SEP 2000
posted September 30, 2000 12:59 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is in vol.1 on page 36.
------------------
Dont call in the artillery - Take it with you !
Chainsaw
A new voice
Posts: 34
From: Estonia
Registered: SEP 2000
posted September 30, 2000 01:27 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No i meant in what part is decribed making of HNO3
shooter
Frequent Poster
Posts: 65
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted September 30, 2000 07:12 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Make sure you are not using Trioxane fuel tabs. They are not Hex. They smell like formaldehyde when you burn them.
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted October 03, 2000 11:04 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At first, no process of making RDX uses H2SO4, except the one from sulfamic acid (detartrer for coffee machines).
H2N-SO3H + KOH -->H2N-SO3K + H2O
H2N-SO3K + CH2=O --> CH2=N-SO3K
3CH2=N-SO3K + H2SO4 c. + HNO3 c. --> RDX
Secondly with HNO3 less than 70% you only get the dinitrate of Hexamine (explosive salt when dry, more sensitive than ammonium nitrate but oxygen deficient). Whit HNO3 less than 98% you may get very fast (10 sec) a runaway reaction due to oxydation of the formol (methanal) produced by the nitrous fumes (I see that you never have tried formol and HNO3 conc.? Don't stay too close)
Or if you are lucky, or over 89%,the mononitrate salt of triazine (also an explosive)will form. So you need at least 98% HNO3 with HEXAMINE and NH4NO3 (to recover some of the methanal by remaking HEXAMINE and thus increase the yields).
Thirdly hexamine don't burn, it sublimes so never expect to get a fireball with it dispersed in the air.
Finely, it is very wise of you to first ask here before acting... mistakes are lethal in this very field.
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
sadsakjoel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 170
From:
Registered: OCT 2000
posted November 05, 2000 08:38 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How much RDX would be generated with 50g of hex and 550ml of red nitric acid? and can you purify sulfuric acid by boiling it? and how do you tell when it's pure? Also making the red acid: The instructions i read say to heat the sulfuric acid in a retort with potassium/sodim nitrate and the droplets will begin to form and run down the inside of the neck of the retort and catch them with a beaker. How does that work? Can someone post instructions that are more clear on how to catch the droplets and how to actually do it?
pete
Frequent Poster
Posts: 56
From: u.k
Registered: JAN 2001
posted February 24, 2001 08:49 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Never made as much as u r asking about but i once dreamt that i made RDX with 60ml of red nitric acid and 14 grams of Hexamine. The yeild was 4 grams, i used the method were u react the Hexamine with the cooled Nitric acid then, once the addtion is over u heat the solution up to 55 degrees cel. of 5 minutes, coll it and dilute with 3-4 times it volume of water. This may sound like a small yield, and yes i guess it is, but this material is very powerful, and was detonated gives a very powerful explosion. It is worth the effort.
Has anyone here add a go at the method of production of RDX in which u react aminosulphate and paraformaldhyde? Sounds like an interesting route to an explosive!!!
sadsakjoel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 170
From:
Registered: OCT 2000
posted February 24, 2001 10:56 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A friend of mine made what he thinks is hexamine-di-nitrate, he only used 70% nitric acid and when hit with a hammer the explosive detonated
------------------
All there is to fear is your own co-ordination
simply RED
Frequent Poster
Posts: 238
From: HELL
Registered: OCT 2000
posted February 26, 2001 06:48 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've also tried to make RDX from homemeade 98% HNO3, but the yield was VERY poor(maybe the acid (or/and the hexamine) were not pure...
Detonator
Frequent Poster
Posts: 132
From:
Registered: NOV 2000
posted February 26, 2001 07:10 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The E Process is better...
You don't need HNO3
But guys i need info about the explosive that is made by nitrating hexamine with HNO3 less than 70% ??? and would you use the same ratio for making RDX?
SofaKing
Frequent Poster
Posts: 397
From: YEAH RIGHT !!
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 01, 2001 01:05 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What is the process that uses sulfamic acid ? I made a post awhile back about finding some availible at Kmart. I didn't know what the heck it was, or if it could be used for anything.
A new voice
Posts: 34
From: Estonia
Registered: SEP 2000
posted September 22, 2000 12:42 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Has anybody tried to make it at home???
from homemade(KNO3 + H2SO4 conc) HNO3 and fuel tablets....
i have tried to make it 3 times.... no crystals will form after diluting solution with cold water.... i waited 1 hour... still nothing.
why it wont work? does the acid must be 99% or somethin... or maybe all fuel tablets don't contain methamine?
Starforce
Frequent Poster
Posts: 46
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted September 22, 2000 01:48 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You must be have pure menthamin and you must the solution head up 70°C when you have adding all the menthamin to oxidise all than you have RDX
10fingers
Frequent Poster
Posts: 442
From: USA
Registered: SEP 2000
posted September 22, 2000 03:56 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*
[This message has been edited by 10fingers (edited July 19, 2001).]
Bitter
Frequent Poster
Posts: 293
From: 11 Downing Street, London, England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted September 22, 2000 03:58 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can't you make it using nitric acid and hexamine ? It would be easier would'nt it ?
megalomania
Administrator
Posts: 653
From: USA
Registered: SEP 2000
posted September 23, 2000 01:04 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually, that is the procedure he is using. He made his own nitric acid from KNO3 + H2SO4 and methenamine is a synonym for hexamine.
------------------
For the most comprehensive and informative web site on explosives and related topics, go to Megalomania's Explosives and Stuff at http://surf.to/megalomania
Chainsaw
A new voice
Posts: 34
From: Estonia
Registered: SEP 2000
posted September 23, 2000 05:46 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
one possibility... maybe nowdays they wanna make health and envirnoment friendly tablets and they don't put hexamine in it...
BTW i tried yesterday for the 4-th time... (this time i used HNO3 from lab... it is supposed to be pure and concentrated... at least when i pour it it gives a bit white fumes... like water vapor) i heated up to 80-85 celsius and holded at this temperature for 25 minutes... result: still not even one crystal of RDX
nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1135
From: Guess
Registered: SEP 2000
posted September 23, 2000 05:51 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chainsaw, send me your e-mail address and I'll send you some info that may help you.
------------------
"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"
Bitter
Frequent Poster
Posts: 293
From: 11 Downing Street, London, England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted September 23, 2000 07:43 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you everyone, but I really am getting fed up of all these experts re-naming chemicals all the time. Oxy-Ethyne welding was the last straw for me.
ezekiel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 110
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted September 23, 2000 08:03 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If anyone wants some hexamine (real hexamine...)fuel teblets in the UK i have quite a few that i don't need and willl sell/exchange.
They are military tabs.
As for the RDX...
You must keep the temperature LOW. The nitration releases alot of heat.
Althoguh different methods require differnt heats - all insist that the acid mix is kept cool most of the time.
If your acid mix isn't generating heat then either the acid is too weak or the hexamine is poor.
------------------
Ezekiel
icq uin :86088379
'Things bad begun make strong themselves by ill'
pj
A new voice
Posts: 13
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted September 23, 2000 11:13 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you use very concentrated acid, you have to keep the temperature low, but if your using more dilute, then you will need to heat the solution (carefully) to complete the reaction. You might try heating to a certain temp and then diluting 5 mL or so, raising until crystals precipitate.
------------------
"The truth will set you
free, but first it will piss
you off."
ezekiel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 110
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted September 24, 2000 05:40 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If your acid is too weak the nitration will either be ineffective or will take god knows how long.
I have never seen methods for synthesis of RDX advising the use of a concentration of HNO3 lower than 85%.
This is because you will get a low yield
A slow reaction (like days)
And you will have to heat the low concentration acid up - which is very dangerous. Strong acid needs no heating...
RDX may seem simple to make but this is a misconception. The steps required may be few but are trickey.
------------------
Ezekiel
icq uin :86088379
'Things bad begun make strong themselves by ill'
[This message has been edited by ezekiel (edited September 24, 2000).]
Chainsaw
A new voice
Posts: 34
From: Estonia
Registered: SEP 2000
posted September 29, 2000 03:43 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For now i have tried it 5 times.... and still... last time i heated it 1.5hours at about 70-80celsius.... (it shouldn't be dangerous... no RDX formed...)
Well I thought that maybe acid is really weak. Does HNO3 need to give red fumes (as many books say)? My acid doesn't.... and at what concetration it starts to give fumes?
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2321
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted September 29, 2000 08:14 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What is the minimum conc. of nitric useable for RDX? Mega's site says to use 100% which might be a bit difficult to prepare without a full blown still. Also I'm sure I read about distilling H2SO4 with KNO3 to get HNO3 in the PMJB (the two bottle method) but I can't find it now in any of the three books I've got. I really just want the ratio of H2S04 to KNO3 to have a go in my improvised little still.
10fingers
Frequent Poster
Posts: 442
From: USA
Registered: SEP 2000
posted September 29, 2000 10:12 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
deleting post.
[This message has been edited by 10fingers (edited March 21, 2001).]
Chainsaw
A new voice
Posts: 34
From: Estonia
Registered: SEP 2000
posted September 30, 2000 12:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I made HNO3 by the arnarch book...
(joined 2 bottles... and so on.... maybe making it with still is better (2 meters of pipe thru bucket of ice))
but in what part of PMJB is it described?
I have only the 1-st part.
Lonegunmen
A new voice
Posts: 32
From: Germany
Registered: SEP 2000
posted September 30, 2000 12:59 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is in vol.1 on page 36.
------------------
Dont call in the artillery - Take it with you !
Chainsaw
A new voice
Posts: 34
From: Estonia
Registered: SEP 2000
posted September 30, 2000 01:27 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No i meant in what part is decribed making of HNO3
shooter
Frequent Poster
Posts: 65
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted September 30, 2000 07:12 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Make sure you are not using Trioxane fuel tabs. They are not Hex. They smell like formaldehyde when you burn them.
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted October 03, 2000 11:04 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At first, no process of making RDX uses H2SO4, except the one from sulfamic acid (detartrer for coffee machines).
H2N-SO3H + KOH -->H2N-SO3K + H2O
H2N-SO3K + CH2=O --> CH2=N-SO3K
3CH2=N-SO3K + H2SO4 c. + HNO3 c. --> RDX
Secondly with HNO3 less than 70% you only get the dinitrate of Hexamine (explosive salt when dry, more sensitive than ammonium nitrate but oxygen deficient). Whit HNO3 less than 98% you may get very fast (10 sec) a runaway reaction due to oxydation of the formol (methanal) produced by the nitrous fumes (I see that you never have tried formol and HNO3 conc.? Don't stay too close)
Or if you are lucky, or over 89%,the mononitrate salt of triazine (also an explosive)will form. So you need at least 98% HNO3 with HEXAMINE and NH4NO3 (to recover some of the methanal by remaking HEXAMINE and thus increase the yields).
Thirdly hexamine don't burn, it sublimes so never expect to get a fireball with it dispersed in the air.
Finely, it is very wise of you to first ask here before acting... mistakes are lethal in this very field.
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
sadsakjoel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 170
From:
Registered: OCT 2000
posted November 05, 2000 08:38 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How much RDX would be generated with 50g of hex and 550ml of red nitric acid? and can you purify sulfuric acid by boiling it? and how do you tell when it's pure? Also making the red acid: The instructions i read say to heat the sulfuric acid in a retort with potassium/sodim nitrate and the droplets will begin to form and run down the inside of the neck of the retort and catch them with a beaker. How does that work? Can someone post instructions that are more clear on how to catch the droplets and how to actually do it?
pete
Frequent Poster
Posts: 56
From: u.k
Registered: JAN 2001
posted February 24, 2001 08:49 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Never made as much as u r asking about but i once dreamt that i made RDX with 60ml of red nitric acid and 14 grams of Hexamine. The yeild was 4 grams, i used the method were u react the Hexamine with the cooled Nitric acid then, once the addtion is over u heat the solution up to 55 degrees cel. of 5 minutes, coll it and dilute with 3-4 times it volume of water. This may sound like a small yield, and yes i guess it is, but this material is very powerful, and was detonated gives a very powerful explosion. It is worth the effort.
Has anyone here add a go at the method of production of RDX in which u react aminosulphate and paraformaldhyde? Sounds like an interesting route to an explosive!!!
sadsakjoel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 170
From:
Registered: OCT 2000
posted February 24, 2001 10:56 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A friend of mine made what he thinks is hexamine-di-nitrate, he only used 70% nitric acid and when hit with a hammer the explosive detonated
------------------
All there is to fear is your own co-ordination
simply RED
Frequent Poster
Posts: 238
From: HELL
Registered: OCT 2000
posted February 26, 2001 06:48 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've also tried to make RDX from homemeade 98% HNO3, but the yield was VERY poor(maybe the acid (or/and the hexamine) were not pure...
Detonator
Frequent Poster
Posts: 132
From:
Registered: NOV 2000
posted February 26, 2001 07:10 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The E Process is better...
You don't need HNO3
But guys i need info about the explosive that is made by nitrating hexamine with HNO3 less than 70% ??? and would you use the same ratio for making RDX?
SofaKing
Frequent Poster
Posts: 397
From: YEAH RIGHT !!
Registered: SEP 2000
posted March 01, 2001 01:05 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What is the process that uses sulfamic acid ? I made a post awhile back about finding some availible at Kmart. I didn't know what the heck it was, or if it could be used for anything.