Lead trinitro oxybenzoate

[the freshmaker]

"Dissolve 2.4 g of lead nitrate in 50 mL of water heated to 90-95 °C in a beaker, and add, with stirring, a concentrated solution of sodium benzoate , prepared by neutralizing 2 g of benzoic acid with 0.6 g of sodium hydroxide. Evaporate the mixture on a water bath to a small volume while the liquid still remains clear. Cool and add 50 mL of 95% ethyl alcohol. This results in a very fine, light yellow precipitate, which is separated by vacuum filtration. After drying at 50 °C, the yield should be about 41.82%. A moisture content in excess of 20% will make this explosive nearly impossible to detonate. You will need a graduated cylinder for measuring liquids, a stirring rod for mixing, and a thermometer to monitor the temperature." (this was taken from mega.)

Have anyone ever tried to make this?
(Mr.Cool I saw on your new homepage you would write about it...?) I have tried this a few times, and it is very easy to make.
I used the method from megalomania. Tough the yield wasen't good because I used the wrong ratios of sodium benzoate.

-Does anyone know how many grams sodium benzoate you should add to 100ml water to get a consentrated soloution?- and then how much of this soloution should be added to the leadnitrate soloution?

[This message has been edited by the freshmaker (edited June 19, 2001).]

[PHILOU Zrealone]

I think there is a mistake here.
As state the name trinitrooxybenzoate of Pb...you are missing the trinitro part!
My guess is that the starting material is not sodium benzoate but sodium trinitrobenzoate.
So Pb(O-CO-C6H5)2 or Pb(O-CO-C6H2(NO2)3)2? My feeling goes to the second as being an explosive (primary detonator); the first one would be very very week!
TNoxyB of Pb...the oxy is too much too unless there is a cetogroup in the ring what is rather improbable on a stability level.
Yes even Mega's site can make mistakes.

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"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"

[Mr Cool]

I used 2.5 grams of sodium benzoate in about 20mL of water. When added to the hot Pb(NO3)2 solution, a white, clearly crystalline precipitate was obtained. When dried, this burns with a strong yellow flame. I haven't done much experimenting with it yet, but it appears that sometimes it does detonate (a sheet of paper with the crystals sprinkled on it makes lots of little "pop" noises when it's burned, but most of the crystals seem to just burn. Maybe a BP charge incorporated with it in a detonator might make it detonate reliably?). I'll do some more testing, and put the results on my page soon.
It was my understanding that the NO3- groups somehow nitrated the benzoic acid ring, but maybe it's an explosive like lead tartarate or oxalate? Just a lead salt of an organic acid?

[PHILOU Zrealone]

Maybe but I doubt it.
I don't expect it to detonate; oxalate and tartrate does because of the high oxygen contain and the related structure near carbonic acid.
NO3(-) can't nitrate benzene ring in water solution.
The explanation you gave stil doesn't explain the trinitro- part of the name.

For sure trinitrobenzoate of Pb is a primary explosive.

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"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"

[the freshmaker]

Would other heavymetals work instead of Pb?
Say fx. copper-, potassium-, sodium nitrate?
I still don't understand the name of this primary. It isn't a nitro compound is it?

[deezs]

Mr Cool: I think the white precipitate, you get, is just benzoic acid. (The solution of Pb(NO3)2 is acidic.) I think something is missing from the recipe.

the Freshmaker: did you get white precipitate, or was it yellow???
Calculating the needed amount of sodium benzoate is basic chemistry. The molar mass of benzoic acid is 122g/mol. Sodium benzoate is 144g/mol. Need more?
I don't think, that would be any problem, to use more water, to disslove the Na-benzoate. Later, you will evaporate it.

[megalomania]

Sonabitch!

Upon further review I have concluded that there is no way this reaction is going to work as I have it written. Unfortunately I do not yet know from which source I obtained this information, my recent move has scattered much of my documents.

I have deduced the structural formula of lead 2,4,6-trinitro-
3-oxybenzoate as depicted in the reaction graphic below. I do not know if this is the proper formula or not, it is only my best educated guess.

http://theforum.virtualave.net/badrxn.gif

As you can see from this reaction, they only actual chemistry that is going to happen is the substitution of lead for sodium on the carboxyl group. The likelihood that mere lead nitrate is going to trinitrate the aromatic ring in nothing more than water is seemingly impossible.

That means the starting regent is going to have to be 2,4,6-trinitro-3-oxybenzoic acid.

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For the most comprehensive and informative web site on explosives and related topics, go to Megalomania's Controversial Chem Lab at http://surf.to/megalomania

[deezs]

Can this be made from picric acid, with light oxidation? Have you got a recipe, to oxidize a phenol, which contains a NO2 group?

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"Don't belive anything, just because there is a good proverb for it."

"To avoid injury in a battle, watch them from the nearer hill."

[Mr Cool]

If you started with trinitro-m-cresol, you could perhaps oxidise it with warm H2SO4 + K2Cr2O7 to get the acid, then react it with lead hydroxide or something to get this.

[PHILOU Zrealone]

That's it Mr COOL!

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"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"