ANNM / Al sensitized

[wantsomfet]

I want to report a great success with ANNM / Al sensitized.
400g AN were dried in the oven, pulverized with electric coffee grinder & dried again. The fine pulverized, dry ammonium nitrate was mixed with 30g >400mesh Al powder by shaking in a 1l glass. 80ml of pure nitromethane was added and the whole shit was mixed with a glass rod until all AN was soaked with NM. The glass was sealed airtight to transport to blasting site - the mix had a volume of ca. 900ml (density about 0,58 g/cm3 - 400g AN, 30g Al, 91g NM)
Below on the picture the original detonator that was used, scanned 1 hour before boom.
The PETN was not homemade, it was extracted out of a packet "DILCORAN 75", a heart disease medicament.
Because i didn't want to press the acetoneperoxide onto the PETN i decided to use AP-putty. A little paper roll was filled with the putty and inserted into the test-tube after drying. (I suggest spreading some fresh AP putty on a piece of paper & letting it almost get dry before loading - this way you don't get that spaces or bubbles in the AP-putty when it dries.)
On site the glass was put on the ground (no confinement). The test-tube was fully inserted into the ANNM/Al & the fuse lighted - 1 minute later and 500 meter away a sudden flash and shortly after that a very deep kabooom. So loud, my mum heard it 1,5 km away. She said the windows had shaken(?) a little bit. wuuuh...
Next thing i'll try is detonating an ANNM/Al mix with only AP or AP-putty in a test-tube.

http://internettrash.com/users/altreal/detcap.jpg



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[Demolition]

Extremely good information wantsomfet. <font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">1 minute later and 500 meter away a sudden flash and shortly after that a very deep kabooom. So loud, my mum heard it 1,5 km away. She said the windows had shaken(?) a little bit. wuuuh...</font>AWESOME!I am going to buy some nitromethane extremely soon and make ANNM.I have been looking around for information on the % of Al to be added to the mixture and it seems about 7-10% seems to be the best.It has been said to raise the VOD to that of 25,000fps(7500+mps)and your test is proof.Can't wait.http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/tongue.gif
Also,has anyone in Australia ordered Al powder or other chemicals from Pyrotek and if so did they get through customs?
Demolition

[PHILOU Zrealone]

Strange that you only reach 0.58g/ccm since all the ingredients are far over that in density: NM is over 1.2g/ccm, AN is over 1.4g/ccm and Al dust (pure Al is 3g/ccm but in dust there is some air reducing it a bit but that can be replaced by NM); so your mix should be like 1.5g/ccm (3 times more dense!)....??????

------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"

[wantsomfet]

I didn't compress the mix, if i had it would have been more dense. But since i wanted a sure detonation (had one or two incomplete detonations before, but without PETN in the det. & without Al) i left it lightly packaged. I didn't know how sensitive it actually was, so compressing would have added some power...
When my AN comes out of the oven the pouring density(?) is about 0,5 g/ccm without shacking or tamping it...


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[wantsomfet]

Oh and BTW according to Merck nitromethane has a density of 1,14 g/ccm & AN 1,72 g/ccm (for pure crystals but not for powder - loose weight/"Schüttgewicht" = 0,6 - 0,7 g/ccm)

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[Mr Cool]

Where did you get the Dilcoran 75? I know it'd be an expensive way to get PETN, but pentaerythrite is hard to find and time consuming to make.

[wantsomfet]

During my civil service in a home for the elderly there were many things to borrow... Unfortunately DILCORAN 75 is the only medicine that contains PETN and only few heart-ill humans get it. Other active substances are preferred (ISDN - isosorbide di and mono nitrate). Nevertheless i got a few packages. I also borrowed mass amounts (a half liter) of the little nitroglycerine spray bottles. (NG solution in alcohol with menthol - mmmhhh). But it contains only few NG, it's good only for a bad headache! But i wonder if that would sensitize AN???

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[Mr Cool]

It could be useful, but like you say it's probably a tiny percentage of NG.

[wantsomfet]

I was dreaming again ;-)
Due to the PETN testing, i tested an ANNM charge with zinc dust instead of Al powder sensitation. 530g AN, 30g zinc dust, 114g (100ml) NM, charge diameter ca. 10cm, density ~1,0g/ccm. Again very loud and very deep boom, it ripped a big hole in the steelbowl i mentioned in my "improvised AP shaped charge" thread. I'll post a pic the next weeks...
Some ANNM/smokeless powder plastique was also tested: 30g smokeless powder, 70ml NM, 250g AN. It detonates without any confinement but seems to have less power than ANNM/metal. (only produced a slight dent in the steel)


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[Agent Blak]

In the book "New And Improved C-4" it states that the Smokeless powder(SP), Al(or Mg even better) with Petrolium Jelly(SP/Al/PJ) is more powerful than ANNM. It also sates that it is easier to detonate and has a great shelf life(stores along time), Where as NM will store for not much more than 2 years and is inhibbitly expensive. Also it states that AN is Very fussy and can be spoiled by on drop of moister. If I where ever thinking about making a high explosive that require me to just assemble it as in this case; I would have to go with The SP/Al/PJ or SP/Mg/PJ.
I was At a gun show just recently, they had Aliance Bullseye powder $25-$30CND/Kg(2.2lbs) plus tax. Pretty cheap if you ask me



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A wise man once said:
"...I Am Not Much of a Dancer But,
Just Wait Till The Fucking Begins"

Agent Blak-------OUT!!

[wantsomfet]

Note that it was *not* double based powder. (i doubt it's used in 12 gauge rounds)
And for that Ragnar Benson shit, i doubt that smokeless powder / Al and vaseline is more powerfull than ANNM/Al. And who cares about shelf life, i would neverever store such things for a longer time (no offense).

And Al would be better than Mg (higher energy release).

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[omega1141]

Demolition
There is no need to by chemicals from Pyrotek or Skylighter because there are plenty of local suppliers that sell anything you need.
If you live in SA or NSW try ACE chemicals they deliver and you only have to 16 to by from them. If you live elsewhere there are other places, just look in the yellow pages.


Omega

[Demolition]

Thanks Omega,You have just saved me a lot of time and money.Where abouts is ACE chemicals in NSW?
Demolition

[pete]

Smokeless powder is high quality nitrocelluose, it is also an explosive which is improved, both in speed and powder by the addition of a powderfully reducing metal. Not all explosives have this quality, nitrocelluose detonated correctly has 127 percent that power shown by TNT. I don't know on way or the other which is stronger, ANNM or SP/Al, put i'm bettting its quite close.

NB Magnesium releases more energy than Aluminium does, as it is quite abit more reducing.

NB Magnesium release more ener

[This message has been edited by pete (edited April 06, 2001).]

[wantsomfet]

OK guys, here's the pic:

http://www.nettrash.com/users/altreal/annm-hole.jpg

The metal is ca. 6mm thick.

Charge was 530g AN, 30g zinc dust, 114g (100ml) Nitromethane, charge diameter ca. 10cm, density ~1,0g/ccm

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[DarkAngel]

Man that's beautifal!!
Nothing else to say

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DarkAngel

For explosives and stuff go to Section1 http://www.section1.f2s.com And http://run.to/section1 (http://www.run.to/section1)
sendtosection1@hotmail.com

[Mr Cool]

That's nice!
I'm buying some pure NM soon, so I'll try it with my 4 um zinc.
Hey, I'm surprised those little trees survived so well!

[wantsomfet]

No improvement to blasting power was done (like mudcapping etc.), container was made of plastic (instant ice tea).

On the right corner you can see what the little charge (30g smokeless powder gelled with 70ml nitromethane, 250g AN knedded in) did. Only a small dent, it's nothing compared to the ANNM charge, although it was a full detonation. Adding glass microballons to decrease density is recommended, i think. And perhaps it wasn't placed the best way...

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[Anthony]

Nicehttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

I've finished getting all the methanol out of some model fuel, next of is the NM so I'll try a small batch of this.

What did you use for the detonator? I'm thinking of using picric acid base charge and AP primary.

Why does the metal powder make such huge difference in power?

[wantsomfet]

This charge was fired with ~1g PETN (http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000284.html) @ 1,2g/ccm initiated by ~0,3g lightly pressed acetoneperoxide + some blackpowder.
A similar but smaller charge was initiated with ~1g acetonperoxide @ 0,9 - 1,0 g/ccm + some blackpowder.
All in 8mm diameter glasstube, see picture.
A base charge isn't allways necessary, 2g acetoneperoxide @ somewhat around 1g/ccm will do it 100% (ANNM & metal)

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[wantsomfet]

A mix of 1300g ammonium nitrate (oven dried & pulverized as usual) and 300ml nitromethane (342g) without any metal dust is easily detonated by 0,4g acetone peroxide @ 0,75 g/ccm in 8mm diameter glass tube.
ANNM seems to be more sensitive than i thought, what a fun...

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[This message has been edited by wantsomfet (edited May 11, 2001).]

[Demolition]

wantsomfet,with your last charge of ANNM what was it packed into,eg.PVC pipe,metal pipe,ect...?
Demolition

[10fingers]

*

[This message has been edited by 10fingers (edited July 19, 2001).]

[wantsomfet]

@demolition: again no confinement (thin plastic container). Anything is suitable that isn't dissolved by the NM.

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[TylerDurden]

Very nice! Can you tell me if and how much shrapnel was produced? Or was the metal just completely blasted away? Amount and type of shrapnel will tell you something about the brisance of the explosive (of course if you know the theoretical VoD you know something about the brisance already but the amount of shrapnel is always handy to know).
And that the other charge only produced a dent is most likely because the main charge didn't detonate (or just a small part). It's impossible that a ANNM mixture with smokeless powder added produces just a dent (since the charge was about half as big it should produce a hole just about half as big. But it probably detonated only partially because it was put on the ground which means no confinement and the dent is caused by the detonator blast). It is even more brisant than the AN/Zinc/NM mixture, maybe just a little bit less powerful (because the metal in the last mixture produces a lot of heat which results in a powerful pressurewave).
But maybe something else happened: sometimes there is (or at least it seems) a great difference in power between a charge that is put on the (soft) ground or one that's put on something hard like steel. I think that when on a hard underground some mixtures produce more power or higher VoD. Maybe the extra "confinement" results in reaching full VoD, and low confinement results in some low order detonation. But I'm not quite sure.
And you're right that you don't need the metal or smokeless powder, the pure ANNM mixture is very powerful by itself and very easy to detonate (1 gram of acetone peroxyde will guarantee sure detonation).

[This message has been edited by TylerDurden (edited May 15, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by TylerDurden (edited May 15, 2001).]

[DarkAngel]

Hey,
I have no balance so i always work with spoon's in my dreams.
For ANNM i use 5/2 AN/NM.
If i wan't to ad Al powder to it how much will that be than for the best results?

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DarkAngel

For explosives and stuff go to Section1 http://www.section1.f2s.com And http://run.to/section1 (http://www.run.to/section1)
sendtosection1@hotmail.com

[DarkAngel]

Please i need to know it so i can dream in a few days?

Oh yeah in "New And Improved C-4" there is a recipe that uses 250ML Flour,30ML Al powder,45ML Ammonium Nitrate,125ML of 40%Nitro Methane fuel.
This sounds like this is crap i can't believe this will ever detonates,
Does anyone ever tryd it?

------------------
DarkAngel

For explosives and stuff go to Section1 http://www.section1.f2s.com And http://run.to/section1 (http://www.run.to/section1)
sendtosection1@hotmail.com

[This message has been edited by DarkAngel (edited May 17, 2001).]

[wantsomfet]

No shrapnel was found. But the metal is not only "folded" inside, it's "rolled up".

DarkAngel: for every 1000g AN ~250ml NM should be OK. The exact amount of Al isn't critical 3% will give a very loud boom, 10% would be better for brisance.



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[Jumala]

Hallo,
in table I and table II of patent No. 4.253.889 (two component AN explosives)you can find very good test results and ratios for the best brisance.

[TylerDurden]

I expected that you would not find much shrapnel. My experiences with these kind of explosives is, that the steel where the container is placed upon, almost completely dissappears (in the shape of the container) and little shrapnel is produced. And the surrounding metal is folded and bended away (and some pieces are broken off which produces shrapnel). This means the explosive is very brisant: the high velocity shockwave almost "evaporates" the steel (if the steel is not too thick of course). And the pressurewave folds the edges of the remaining steel.
Almost all the NM explosives have a high VoD.
The pure ANNM mixture is a good example. All the "additives" like metal powders or smokeless powder don't have much effect in that respect and are unnecessary (the pure ANNM explosive is a very brisant, high power and easy to detonate H.E.). But they may increase the power (of the pressurewave, like aluminium) or have some influence on sensitivity or add something else (making it plastic for example, like smokeless powder).
By the way, did you figure out what happened with that other charge? Did it detonate completely? (if so, probably some low order detonation occured).




[This message has been edited by TylerDurden (edited May 18, 2001).]

[wantsomfet]

I found no unexploded pieces of the smaller charge, it was quite loud, too. But perhaps it wasn't mixed good enough, i should have waited longer for the NM to dissolve/gel the smokeless powder...

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[DarkAngel]

Today i dreamed about some ANNM charges and 1 ANFO charge.
The detonators where made from plastic practise shooting cartridges fild with AP,
The 1st(and last) ANNM charge whas awesome it exploded with a very loud explosion you could really feel the shockwave and see dirt and smoke everyware around the tree apearing in no time(Damn it's not normall any more what whe can dream these days)

And all the other stuff didn't go off because the detonators where not powerfull enough they spreaded al the ANNM/ANFO all over the place (Normally i use thick coper pipe as a blasting cap)

In my dream the batch of AP whas very much and i have more than enough AN so i hope to dream soon again.

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DarkAngel

For explosives and stuff go to Section1 http://www.section1.f2s.com And http://run.to/section1 (http://www.run.to/section1)
sendtosection1@hotmail.com

[TylerDurden]

Maybe another reason the second charge with smokeless powder only produced a dent was because it was not in contact with the steel, so the shockwave didn't/couldn't destroy it (but even so, one would expect a bigger dent from the pressurewave).
I think that when this charge would have been put on the steel drum like the ANNM/Zinc charge, it would have produced the same effect as the ANNM/Zinc charge (only a smaller hole because the charge was half as big).
A pure ANNM charge would also produce the same effect/amount of damage, because like I said earlier, all those "additives" don't make that much difference. I think that one would not find much difference if one put the 3 different charges of the same size on the same target and detonated them. The brisance won't differ much and the difference in power would probably have little noticable effects.
But that's all theory and one would forget almost the most important effect of explosives, an effect all the scientist forget: when an explosive is set off it makes you feel good! http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif
And looking at the picture, I'm convinced the amount of fun the explosive produced must have been enormous, and it must have made you feel quite good, I'm sure http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif.

[Morrigan]

Since I have access to very very fine copper powder I was wandering or this would also have the same effect as Al / Zn in ANNM? I read in another topic that hydrous NH4NO3 /Cu mixes can spontaneously detonate and are unstable, is this true?

[kingspaz]

don't mix AN with copper!!! thats a disaster waiting to happen. the copper WILL react with the AN forming TACN. although i think moisture may need to be present which it probably will be no matter how dry your AN is. if you don't believe me take a small piece of copper (i used a penny) and leave it a few days in AN solution. the solution will turn blue. TACN is formed. TACN is a primary just incase u don't know http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif. also i don't think copper would work as its not very reactive.

[ANTI-SYSTEM]

i made some anfo a while back and was wondering if i could add NM to the anfo crystals to get something better / more sensitive or stronger than the plain old anfo?

[no_name_available]

so if TACN is formed, why not mixing AN with copper ? it should be much easier to detonate, and that is what we want if we mix AN with NM + Al ! is this ok for little amounts ? in case of yes, what means little ?100g ?
-nna-

[PHILOU Zrealone]

AN is also sensitised by Cu powder but in such an extend that you have to use that mix quite fast...otherwise heat and boom in your basement or where you make it.The Cu has to be very fine powder and the AN must be very very dry to diminish the TACN formation (and the heat thus).

It seems that Anti-system don't know what ANNM explosive is... ammonium nitrate and nitromethane; that has been extensively discussed so make a little search OK.

------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"

[ANTI-SYSTEM]

so thats a yes i hope. i wasnt sure because everyone is saying AN not ANFO. thanks though!

[Anthony]

AN = Ammonium Nitrate
ANFO = Ammonium Nitrate Fuel Oil - AN sensitized with fuel oil

ANFO is not a compound and you cannot have crystals of it.

[EventHorizon]

Wow, using PETN for setting off ANNM. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/frown.gif You can set off as little as 1g of ANNM with .2g of HMTD. ANNM is VERY easy to set off. I once dreamed of setting off 22oz. of ANNM with 1g of HMTD. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Donutty]

I thought I'd just see what all the fuss was about and tried some ANNM + Al myself. conclusion - impressive. A 50g charge initiated with 5g of AP did this to a piece of 1mm thick steel:

http://donuttyfiles.50megs.com/50g_annm_1mmsheet.jpg

[SATANIC]

Where is it possible to get NM? i can only get 20% in model racing fuel, mixed, i believe with methanol. I cannot access fractional distallation equipment, and cannot get it sent through a chemical suplier (until i leave home) Because AN is so easy to get, it is a shame there is no easily detonatable compound i can make. Al is also easy enough for me to make and this is really annoying me. I know there isn't much hope of anyone helping me here, but it's worth a try. so please help out if you can.....

[the freshmaker]

You say ANNM is very sensitive to initation. Is it more sensitive to initation than PETN?

[wantsomfet]

Sure not! PETN is very sensitive to initiation by shock. (0,01g leadazide or 0,0004g copperazide)
ANNM should be sensible to a No.6 cap, but should not detonate from the impact of a 30-06 bullet...

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[TylerDurden]

You can set secondary explosives off with very little primary if in direct contact and pressed on top in a cap. You need only a few milligram and that's with every H.E. not just PETN (e.g. you can set tetryl off with 0.025 gram of leadazide, it's the so called minimum iniating charge, see topic "improvised ammonite" and T.L. Davis for more details). BUT if you use a detonator you need a lot more. What cap you need for PETN I don't know, but PETN is as sensitive as NG (compared to the droptest: 9 cm of a 2 kg weight for PETN and 10-12 cm for NG). And for detasheet (85% PETN) they use a no. 6 cap (but maybe because commercially only no. 6 and no.8 caps are available). Maybe a no.4 will do but anyway the difference in sensitivity of PETN compared to ANNM is not that big. Although PETN is more sensitive.

[This message has been edited by TylerDurden (edited July 23, 2001).]

[Fingerless]

Well, I have a few gallons of 10% nitromethane racing fuel (Also mixed with methanol I believe) I wonder if I mixed this with pure ammonium nitrate, plus Al powder (maybe Mg If I could ever grind it up fine enough) if I would achieve detonation in a mix of 400-500 grams or so, using a 5 g or so tamped AP cap--any experiences? I guess I'll have to try, or distill my 10%, but seems like a lot of trouble for the time, and the amount I would get.

[Celtick]

Here in the Netherlands we have these Tornado Fuels:

<img src="http://www.tornado-products.com/pics/fuelcar.jpg" alt="" />
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Tornado professional fuel for car, plane, boat and helicopter.

Specially developed high performance fuels with high quality nitromethane and methanol for extra power, better acceleration and cool operating temperature. Rust preventers keep engine and exhaust system clean.

All fuels are available in several nitromethane percentages.

Tornado fuel is based on a special synthetic oil made on our own specifications. We managed to develop an oil composition that gives a perfect lubrication and boosts up the engine performance.
Available fuels in 1.0, 2.5, and 5.0 litre tins:

Car 10% nitromethane
Car 16% nitromethane
Car 25% nitromethane
Car 30% nitromethane

A special developed oil+ formula for small engines in 10% and 16% nitromethane is available.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">I was wondering if these fuels could be used in a ANNM charge. I just ordered a Litre can of 25% because I couldn't find a source for the 30% :( . When I have it I will start experimenting with it. Could the 25% fuel be purified?

[kingspaz]

i believe (hope someone else can confirm/disprove this) that it can be separated by the addition of water. i think the fuel separates into different layers. the methanol will dissolve in the water since it is polar, the castor/synthetic oil will float to the top (being less dense) and the nitromethane will sink to the bottom.
if there is much water in the nitromethane it could be a shitty alternative although if left in a box with some nice dry salt the water may be drawn out drying the nitromethane.

[DarkAngel]

Why ordering 25% when you can get 99.7%?
Mail me for the adress.

(Im Dutch too)

[wantsomfet]

I did a bit of testing on the initiability of ANNM & ANNM/Al.
Since most of us use the rather unstable peroxides in blasting caps, i wanted to know if ANNM could be initiated with commercial flash powder to give a bit more safety...
I used flash powder extracted from this:

<a href="http://rain.prohosting.com/messers/vogelschreck.jpg" target="_blank">http://rain.prohosting.com/messers/vogelschreck.jpg</a> (cut & paste URL)

They're called "Vogelschreck" in Germany and contain 1,7g - 1,8g of (i believe) 75/25 KClO4/800mesh dark Al.

To come to the point, it's possible to set off aluminized ANNM (i tested 3% and 15%, 400mesh spherical Al) and straight ANNM with ~3,5g of the above mentioned flash powder. Density was always above 1,0g/cm3.
I had only one incomplete detonation in a charge with coarse AN (0,5mm - 1mm crystal size, the other charges were made with very fine AN) and no Al.

Happy blasting :D

<small>[ May 10, 2002, 04:45 PM: Message edited by: wantsomfet ]</small>

[Mr Cool]

Good work wantsomfet :)

[xoo1246]

This leads us to the conclusion! Flash doesn't detonate when ignited by flame in moderate amounts.(news?)
How much do you pay /liter NM?
I pay 22.5$/liter.

<small>[ May 11, 2002, 06:29 AM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]</small>

[wantsomfet]

I paid 240DM (120 Euro) for 10l NM.

[Chris Shiherlis]

Well, that finally puts an end to the endless discussion if flashpowder detonates :) . Very nice one Wantsomfet. I also was curious if flashpowder could be used to detonate the ANNM mixture for the exact same reason as you mention, but I was too lazy to try it. So thanks. No need for all the chemicals anymore. It gets easier every time :) . Although I wouldn't say flashpowder is safer than AP. It probably is more sensitive to friction than AP, but it's easier to get.

<small>[ May 19, 2002, 07:50 AM: Message edited by: Chris Shiherlis ]</small>

[Demolition]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Well, that finally puts an end to the endless discussion if flashpowder detonates :) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Not necessarily,it just shows that ANNM sensetized with Al powder can be initiated using flash powder.Its just the same with AP and flashpowder.Of course the flashpowder will detonate the AP because of the sensetivity of Acetone Peroxide.The test shows the sensetivity of ANNM/Al.
Im sure flashpowder would set off many high explosives eg,picric acid,PETN,RDX ect. however the discussion wether it detonates or not can go on.

[Mr Cool]

The discussion about flashpowder could go on, but I'm sure that everyone here would rather that it didn't! It never gets us anywhere...

Any idea how much 120 Euros is in £?

[xoo1246]

Try a converter...

[DarkAngel]

From: <a href="http://www.xe.com/ucc/" target="_blank">http://www.xe.com/ucc/</a>
120.00 Euro= 75.56GBP
1 Euro= 0.629712 GBP
1 GBP= 1.58803 Euro

[Chris Shiherlis]

Demolition, you apparently don't know the difference between a primary and a secondary high explosive, when you say that flashpowder iniatiates the ANNM/AL mixture just like it does AP, "because the mixture is also sensitive".
The ANNM/AL mixture is a sensitive secondary(!) high explosive, which by definition means that it CAN'T be detonated by flame. It needs to be initiated by a detonator.
Now, Wantsomfet was so generous to see if instead of AP, flashpowder could be used to detonate the (secondary) high explosive AN/NM mixtures. And the enjoyable result is that it can.
And your remark that flashpowder will also be able to set off PETN, RDX and picric acid just like it sets off AP is also based on your incorrect understanding of primay and secondary explosives.
But remarkable enough your remark has some truth in it. And that is: because Wantsomfet proved that flashpowder detonates(!) :) and is able to set AN/NM off it might be possible that flashpowder can also be used to set off other high explosives (probably only the very sensitive ones like PETN). The only other example I've heard of is a charge of double base smokeless powder detonated(!) by a M-80.

I have one last question for Wantsomfet: when you say the AN/NM can be set off with 3.5 gram flashpowder, does this mean that you need at least 3.5 gram and lower amounts will fail or did you just try it with that amount? I ones tried with 2 grams of a similar powder mixture (toy gun caps) to set off a very sensitive explosive mixture (which needed no more than 0.5 gram AP) but it failed. Which led to the conclusion that you need either much more of the powder to equal 0.5 gram AP or that the powder is just not good enough to iniate high explosives.

By the way, how do you get 4 stars as a rating overhere?! It must have something to do with suckin' up to someone, because apparently knowledge about explosives is not a necessity :) .

<small>[ May 20, 2002, 08:18 AM: Message edited by: Chris Shiherlis ]</small>

[0EZ0]

Well i'll go on credibility whether Demolition's knowledge of explosives is incorrect. He's been around a lot longer than you. Also his posts are of a number much greater than your own. I'm sure it was just his wording that made you think poorly of him. Maybe Demolition, you could re-phrase that part of your post?
But since i'm also considered a Newbie, I'll shut up now :p

Anyways back on topic.

Well considering the cost of a primary like AP or HMTD as compared to Flash Powder, cost prohibates me from using flash as an alternative.

But there will be other poeple who are not in the same situation. So that's just my 2 cents...

[Microtek]

Chris: A detonating primary explosive is not absolutely neccessary to cause a secondary explosive such as PETN to detonate. A patent exists that details an NPE ( no primary explosive ) detonator using a contained thermite mixture to induce convective deflegration in PETN which makes the transition to detonation.
Another patent exists which uses mixtures which the authors call
" high energy pyrotechnic " or HEP for short. These mixtures consist of a reducing metal chosen from Mg, Al and some others and an oxidizer chosen from alkali-metal nitrates, permanganates, perchlorates ( and chlorates I think ).
As I think everyone can agree that thermite doesn't detonate, but is still capable, under certain circumstances, of initiating PETN, it should be clear that the ability of flash to initiate ANNM does not prove that it detonates.

[Chris Shiherlis]

I know some secondary high explosives can under certain circumstances detonate without using a detonator maybe even by flame (e.g. the shipload of ammoniumnitrate in the famous disaster). But I didn't know that patent you name. The circumstances in which that PETN detonated by thermite must be extraordinary.
Generally speaking secondary explosives under normal conditions need a detonator and can't be detonated by flame, heat, friction or a deflagrating explosive.
So it should be clear this AN/NM mixture is initiated by the shockwave produced by the detonating flashpowder. If you don't believe that there is loads of other proof that flashpowder detonates and you don't have to believe that either, I don't care. But please don't let us start that discussion again. If you think Wantsomfet succeeded in inducing convecting deflagration in the AN/NM mixture causing it to detonate, that's fine with me :) . And the more credit to Wantsomfet.

And by the way, I don't think poorly of anyone. Live and let live is my motto. But numbers of posts don't proove a thing. And don't impress me at all.

<small>[ May 20, 2002, 09:25 AM: Message edited by: Chris Shiherlis ]</small>

[Anthony]

It's really quite simple, nothing to do with heat, flame, or "induced convective deflegration" :) It's simply shock. You don't need a supersonic shockwave to detonate a HE. For example, black powder used to be used to detonate nitroglycerine. Also drop tests are used for secondary HEs, if a hammer blow creates enough shock to detonate a secondary, why not the shock imparted by a tube violently bursting at tens of thousands of psi?

[vulture]

You have to break up the molecule to let detonation occur, this requires energy. Because a shock delivers all it energy at once it can initiate detonation, it has high power. A flame may have much energy, it doesn't have much power. It all comes down to a sufficient amount of energy in a short amount of time, because

POWER = ENERGY/TIME (J/s)

See what I mean?

[Microtek]

The mechanism that causes a primary explosive to be a more or less efficient initiating agent is not fully understood as far as I'm informed; in the days of mercury fulminate it was thought that the sand crush test was indicative of initiating ability as an MF/KClO3 mix was as much better at initiating as it was at crushing sand, relative to straight MF. That rule does not hold for things like heavy metal azides or acetylides. My point is simply that this experiment ( detonating ANNM with flash ) proves one thing - no more, no less - and that is that ANNM can be detonated with flash.

[kingspaz]

thank you Microtek, i agree with you entirely.
lets get this back on topic.

[a_bab]

The only other example I've heard of is a charge of double base smokeless powder detonated(!) by a M-80.

Chris, you heard about this from "Introduction to Home Explosive Manufacture", by Franz Liszt ?

[Demolition]

Yes,I did word that part of my post poorly.I should of made mention to the shock of the flashpowder bursting its tube.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">It's really quite simple, nothing to do with heat, flame, or "induced convective deflegration" :) It's simply shock.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">That was the point I was trying to put across,that the shock from the flashpowder detonates ANNM/Al.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">You don't need a supersonic shockwave to detonate a HE. For example, black powder used to be used to detonate nitroglycerine. Also drop tests are used for secondary HEs, if a hammer blow creates enough shock to detonate a secondary, why not the shock imparted by a tube violently bursting at tens of thousands of psi?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Thats what I basically meant in my first post that the shock from the flashpowder bursting its tube is enough to detonate ANNM/Al.Thats the same reason why flash would initate AP,because of the shock.Im sure that it would be able to detonate other high explosives like PETN,RDX and picric acid aswell.Anthony just worded it alot better then I did. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Whats to say that filling a copper pipe with blackpowder wont detonate ANNM/Al,and if it did according to you Chris that would mean that blackpowder detonates :rolleyes: when really its just the shock from the copper pipe bursting.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">My point is simply that this experiment ( detonating ANNM with flash ) proves one thing - no more, no less - and that is that ANNM can be detonated with flash.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Another patent exists which uses mixtures which the authors call " high energy pyrotechnic " or HEP for short. These mixtures consist of a reducing metal chosen from Mg,Al and some others and an oxidizer chosen from alkali-metal nitrates, permanganates,perchlorates( and chlorates I think ).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Not necessarily,it just shows that ANNM sensetized with Al powder can be initiated using flash powder.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Thats all I was trying to point out Chris,you shouldnt get so worked up and start taking shots at me about my knowledge on explosives :rolleyes: I was just trying to point out that it doesnt mean flashpowder detonates.

Chris-you almost had it right </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">So it should be clear this AN/NM mixture is initiated by the shockwave produced by the detonating flashpowder.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">But it should read more like this
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">So until evidence from somewhere else states wether flashpowder detonates or not it should be clear this AN/NM mixture is initiated by the shock produced by the flashpowder bursting its tube.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Much better. :)

<small>[ May 20, 2002, 11:31 PM: Message edited by: Demolition ]</small>

[cutefix]

Binary-ANNM type explosives are sensitive to a #6 blasting cap.Now the addtion of aluminum in it will further increase its sensitivity that, its likely that a fire cracker can even set it off…

[Chris Shiherlis]

What a load of bollocks!
Yes, secondary high explosive need a shock to set it off. That's exactly what primary explosives (and flashpowder) produce: a shock. And that's exactly why it's called detonation: when a shock(wave) is produced that travels through the explosive and makes it react/explode/detonate, it's called a detonation.
And with deflagration the process of combustion/reaction/explosion is propagated by heat.

Now, you can set off a high explosive also by shock delivered from a hammer for example, because it's the same kind of physical effect as produced by a detonation.

But the "shock" produced by a (heavy) shell exploded by black powder is not even near it. You can put 10 kg of blackpowder in a shell on top of whatever high explosive and it won't do shit! (in fact this is actually a method to destroy a explosive device used by the bombsquad). And all this talk about energy is also bullshit. You need a shockwave to set a secondary high explosive off!
(although in the case of dynamite I'm not 100% sure because the nitroglycerine it contains sometimes detonates when it's heated).
And how the hell is 3.5 gram of powder in a more or less open ended, thin walled, small cillinder gonna produce a pressure of "ten thousands of psi"?!
"The shock from the bursting tube is setting of the explosive" :) You idiots.

So there is only one conclusion: the flashpowder detonates the AN/NM mixture because it produces the necessary shockwave (by detonating! you fools!).

And Al doesn't sensitise the AN/NM mixture. It just increases the power of the pressurewave.

<small>[ May 21, 2002, 08:23 AM: Message edited by: Chris Shiherlis ]</small>

[Demolition]

You dont take constructive critism very well do you Chris. :rolleyes: Here are 4 or 5 guys (not including myself) whos knowledge far surpasses mine and yet you call them fools.Call me a fool all you want,your not going to get a flame back out of me however search for some of the topics and replys the other guys have posted and read over them and then see if you still call them fools. :rolleyes:

<small>[ May 21, 2002, 08:32 AM: Message edited by: Demolition ]</small>

[Chris Shiherlis]

Admitting your wrong is hard thing to do isn't it?

But I understand it. Your reputation is at stake here, just as of all the other ones. So just stick together. The group will help you keep up your and their appearance. And I'm just an outsider :) . Intelligent, capable and what else and that sure is a threat. But an easy target anyway. Even if the outsider is right and the group is wrong the outsider is wrong, right?
So just ignore him, tell him he is a fool, insult him, ridicule him, expel him, delete him. And convince yourself that you're right.

I've seen it all before.

"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"

<small>[ May 21, 2002, 08:40 AM: Message edited by: Chris Shiherlis ]</small>

[Demolition]

Now correct me if im wrong but the only person who I see calling others fools,insulting and ridiculing is you,but wait a minute,I thought you said that we were doing that.I must be wrong,again. :rolleyes:
According to you I may have no knowledge about explosives but im sure I can read.

<small>[ May 21, 2002, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: Demolition ]</small>

[Mr Cool]

I feel that this may be an appropriate time to remind you that flame wars WILL NOT BE TOLERATED.

I did have a more substantial reply, but my computer crashed when I tried to post it. So I will give you an abbreviation:

You are not obliged to stay here with us "fools", so if you want to go then please do. However, if you want to stay then you must change your attitude or you will not have the option.

[Zambosan]

Okay, let's take the testosterone down a few notches here and do a little gedanken experiment. Chris, you're aware that hammer drops can and do detonate secondary high explosives. Put generally, a high explosive needs a certain amount of energy delivered within a finite amount of time (power), applied to a finite volume of the explosive to break enough chemical bonds to start a detonation, which then becomes self-sustaining. A hammer, of course, doesn't move at the speed of a primary detonation wave... it just provides enough directed energy within a short amount of time to start the process. Surely you don't insist that the hammer is detonating?

"All this talk of energy is bullshit..."

What makes a shockwave so special? You've even admit that nitro can detonate under heating, as well as AN. Lots of secondaries can do the same. The classification of primary and secondary explosives is just a artificial, idealistic model, not some arbitrary law of nature. An explosive compound can undergo detonation if enough power (energy/time) is applied to get enough of it to start decomposing.

I'd personally be real surprised if flash powder detonates under normal conditions of pressing and confinement. But I'm not going to discount the possibility. At any rate, you probably *could* detonate some secondaries with black powder under the right conditions. The bomb squad doesn't use a LE charge to destroy bombs because "it won't do shit", they use them because they need to detonate the thing in a safe container somehow, and they'd be stupid to either rely on the improvised explosive's existing detonator or try to place one intrusively. Hell, a k3\/\/l little BP cratermaker device generates enough PSI and liberates enough energy in a few milliseconds to remove your hand. Can a hammer do that? :D

The detonation wave from a primary is usually a good deal less intense and slower than that of the secondary charge, which will "catch up" with the primary wave if the charge is large enough. That alone tells you that you don't need as intense or fast of a compression wave as the secondary will provide to be able to initiate it. Even a popped balloon creates a compression shock wave... it's absolutely 100% about energy, specifically the amplitude and shape of the impulse. The higher the peak, and the narrower the the impulse, the greater the concentration of energy at higher frequency components, and thus greater power. Primaries just happen to be well suited to generating very high-amplitude, narrow mechanical impulses... a shallower, lower-amplitude one with more low frequency components like that produced by a container burst by a LE may be able do the job as well in some sensitive charges like activated AN/NM/AL.

<small>[ May 21, 2002, 09:40 AM: Message edited by: Zambosan ]</small>

[Anthony]

Small carboard tubes will take very high peak pressures before rupturing. You acknowledge that secondaries can be detonated by the shock produced by a hammer, but cannot grasp that a "hammer" effect can be created with high pressure gas? Even if it's slamming a peice or cardboard/plastic/metal into the secondary at possibly near supersonic speeds?

I propose a test: Anyone got any pure nitroglycerine handy? I'm sure if a firecracker or COB filled with blackpowder will detonate it, then we can establish for definite that deflagerating LE's can detonate secondary HE's. Unless of course Chris then starts to tell us that blackpowder detonates too :)

EDIT: Zambosan bet me to the response so if I seem to be repeating anything he's said, that's why.

<small>[ May 21, 2002, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: Anthony ]</small>

[vulture]

Now i've came along an interesting thought: To have a detonation, wouldn't you need gaseous decomposition products? IIRC, the shockwave is produced by the insanely fast transition from solid to gas. If this is true, flash containing only Al and an oxidizer can't detonate, but flash containing, S or C can.
Any CONSTRUCTIVE thoughts?

[Mr Cool]

It depends on the composition; if excess oxidiser is present then there will be some oxygen released, which is a "permanent" gas. But even if there isn't, when the flash is burning it's quite hot. Therefore [at least some of] the reaction products will be in the gaseous state. So although they will turn into a solid, there is gas present for a brief period.
Think of silver acetylide, Ag2C2. That detonates.

[Zambosan]

Good example, Mr. Cool. Acetylides are pretty unique explosives, since they contain neither nitrogen nor oxygen.

[xoo1246]

The blackpowder will simply help the NG in it's DtD(deflagration to detonation) transition, it will not detonate itself.
Some explosives can do the DtD process by them selves at small amounts, others may need some help by an explosive that has allready reached detonation VoD. Flashpowder does NOT detonate in small amounts(by flame). I may however help another explosive to do the DoD transition.

We all know that detonating explosives send primary fragmentation if confined in a container, those framgments get their speed from the shockwave, not the gas pressure. Thease fragments are really small. Try confining a small amount of good flash powder in a metal container with say, a couple of millimeter thick walls, use electrical ignition and ignite the little fellow in an enclosed area. Collect the fragments, take a fotograph and post it here. If the fragments are small enough, I shall change my opinion.
Flash might detonate(by shock) but at most times it doesn't(small amounts/flame) or it does it only partially(not likely).

One book "Explosives, propellants & pyrotechnics" sais that foto-flash can be detonated by bullet impact.
It is a really good book, sort things out, ends the confusion. I will see if I can get myself to scan it.
An example:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Nature of detonation
As stated earlier, burning is one of the two alternative combustion processes by wich explosives release their energy. The other is detonation. The first notable feature of detonation is a shock wave which passes through the explosive material without beeing much affected by the relative position of the surface. The second outstanding feature of detonation is its great speed compared with any other burning process. The velocity of the shock wave in solid or liquid explosives is between 1800 - 9000 m/s, an order of magnitude higher than that of a fast deflagration and two or three orders higher than averange one. Whereas, in burning, the rate at which the material decomposes is governed by the rate of heat transfer into the surface, the rate of decompositionm of the material in the wake of detonation wave is limited only by the velocity at which the material can transmit the wave.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">There is not reason to get angry on one another, we are all here to learn.

[DBSP]

Apropiate or not I have to say what I think in the matter of our dear friend Chris Shiherlis.

It has happened that people with good intetions and perhaps knowledge has been deleted because they posted before they searched and such, thats a pity. The question one would have to ask himself is what shall you ban for? From my point of view what Chris is doing ends up higher on a list of things to ban for than a newbie "accitentically" posting a new topic without searching first. As I see it all he is doing is causing trouble and poluting a tread that is very good with bullshit. Every time his name turns up he allways have something either stupid or negative to say. Conduct a search and see for yourself.

No it's time for me to appoligise for poluting this thread with bullshit. :(

My question is what will be done about this matter?

[Chris Shiherlis]

Yeah I know I'm the one who started to insult. But that's because I get a bit pissed off sometimes by ignorance and people denying facts. So I was merely predicting what would follow when such a group of people has to face the fact that they're wrong.

Let's make it simple: here are the facts:

1. under normal conditions and generally speaking you need a shock to detonate a secondary high explosive. Friction, heat and deflagrating explosives don't set them off.
2. The shockwave is normally produced by primary explosives. They detonate.
3. detonation is the process occurring in a high explosive which sents a shockwave through the explosive resulting in reaction of the explosive substance.
4. flashpowder is able to detonate the secondary explosive mixture of AN/NM
5. the explosion of a shell of blackpowder doesn't produce a shockwave (and certainly not an open ended thin walled, small paper/plastic/metal cillinder).
6. Detonation is also defined as follows: when an explosive substance explodes unconfined it's said to detonate; the air acts as a confinement. In such a case not only the speed of the reaction is higher than the speed of sound (supersonic) but the process changes: instead of propagation by a heat front, the reaction is propagated by a shockwave. (Maybe here some of you would argue that supersonic deflagration could be possible, but I think not. If supersonic deflagration is possible what about a subsonic detonation? And would a low order detonation of dynamite of 1500 m/s than be a supersonic deflagration? Think not. It all the same: at supersonic speed deflagration turns into detonation. But call it what you want, at this speed the explosives substance produces a shockwave able to detonate high explosives.).

Conclusion: flashpowder produces a shockwave, so it detonates.
Now you again.

[Chris Shiherlis]

I'm not polluting this thread with bullshit. I just thanked Wantsomfet for the good work. And then someone made some mistakes which I tried to correct. Just facts, no bullshit.

But I shouldn't have done it. You are so predictable. I'm sorry.

<small>[ May 21, 2002, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: Chris Shiherlis ]</small>

[Zambosan]

Here's where your reasoning is flawed:
"5. the explosion of a shell of blackpowder doesn't produce a shockwave"

It sure as hell does! It may not throw particles at faster than the speed of sound, but that's not the point; that's related solely to gas expansion and conversion to kinetic energy. If it doesn't produce a shockwave, how come I can hear it? And no one said it was unconfined.

And air does not "provide the confinement" for a high explosive. A high explosive doesn't *need* confinement, since the initiating shockwave travels through and decomposes the explosive faster than the resultant liberated energy can accelerate the explosive matter and reaction products up to speed. That's a property called *inertia*, I'll leave you to research that yourself. Now put away the holier-than-thou attitude, it doesn't fly well here.

[Chris Shiherlis]

OK I'm wrong, and you are right (you always are :) ). So flashpowder doesn't detonate and thereby sending a shockwave through the AN/NM mixture causing it to detonate. It just deflagrates. And the rupture of the (open ended, thin walled small) cillinder, containing 3.5 gram flashpowder creates tens of thousands of psi pressure. This hits the secondary explosive just like a hammer blow, causing it to detonate. And it's not the induced convective deflagration :) and heat, right?
In the same way blackpowder initiates dynamite. And you say firecrackers can set off picric acid, PETN in the same way. Right?

So you're basicly saying we can set off high explosives with firecrackers. Well that's good news :) . I sounds familiar, just can't remember where I read it :) .

<small>[ May 22, 2002, 10:20 AM: Message edited by: Chris Shiherlis ]</small>

[kingspaz]

this thread aswell?! chris, get ur attitude sorted and think before you post. you don't know it all because nobody does.

[EP]

Chris: If you can prove to us that flash produces a shock wave and blackpowder does not it would help your argument. But I don't think you can.

[kingspaz]

ENOUGH! :mad:
this is one discussion that can easily get out of hand as is doing so now.
this thread is about ANNM and Al sensitised ANNM. NOT about whether flash powder detonates.
stay on topic!

[Microtek]

I've found a paper on Lagen's site that might help:

<a href="http://lagen.kgb.cz/Library/DE183.pdf" target="_blank">http://lagen.kgb.cz/Library/DE183.pdf</a>

In summary: Porous explosives can make DDT if igniting gasflow and temperature as well as confinement are within certain values. For PETN they mention 100 atm pressure and a couple of thousand degrees in the igniting gas. It's quite an interesting paper, and if you skip most of the first few pages where the author details the model, and go straight to the results, it's not a difficult read.

[Chris Shiherlis]

I also would like to stick to the topic.
So: Wantsomfet do you need at least 3.5 gram of flashpowder to detonate AN/NM? And will using less cause failure?

And Microtek: like your approach. Presenting scientific papers, facts. Only it got nothing to do with the flashpowder discussion. It's a study of a certain kind of DDT which happens under specific conditions in PETN. The study of what happens at the molecular level in specific DDT or detonation conditions is not really interesting. It's endless and academic. If you can present a paper or proove deflagration of blackpowder can set off secondary high explosives I will apologize and shut up. But I think you can only find it in the Anarchist Cookbook :) .

<small>[ May 22, 2002, 10:17 AM: Message edited by: Chris Shiherlis ]</small>

[Microtek]

The relevance of this paper is that 100 atm pressure and a few thousand degrees is present in many confined LE explosions ( pipe-bombs etc ).
So PETN can be initiated by a deflagrating substance. From this follows that some secondaries ( eg. PETN ) can be initiated by LEs.
From this follows that the initiating substance does not have to detonate.
From this follows that it is impossible to say from the present info whether or not flash detonates.

[Chris Shiherlis]

OK, there is a way to end this dispute, for once and forever. But I don't want to pollute this thread any further (sorry Wantsomfet) so go to the Low Explosives section.

[xoo1246]

Test it in a metal pipe. I would if I had access to good flashpowder.
Another thing, my posts are made with me beliving that flash didn't set off the AN/NM charges. I didn't read correctly.
Edit: Sorry for poluting further.

<small>[ May 22, 2002, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]</small>

[Chris Shiherlis]

Wantsomfet could you please tell us why you used flashpowder and not a normal firecracker? Just curious :) .

<small>[ May 29, 2002, 08:07 AM: Message edited by: Chris Shiherlis ]</small>

[Anthony]

Are you sure you don't work in politics chris?

We can make this a two-way thing. You can help us, and we can help you by locating a doctor suitable experienced and qualified to perform the highly delicate and complex operation of removing an item as large as your head from your anus.

[Chris Shiherlis]

:) Thanks for editing/deleting my posts but could please let Wantsomfet answer my last question? Sort of as a last wish? Things got a bit out of hand and I didn't make friends so I will be gone ("fuck off and die" if you will). But grant my last wish, please. So bye, bye take care and see you in hell :) .

<small>[ May 29, 2002, 08:20 AM: Message edited by: Chris Shiherlis ]</small>

[Anthony]

I didn't touch your posts. You don't have to "fuck off and die", you just need to fit in. Yes, individuality is good and conformity is often bad, but like society you do need to make some effort not to piss other people off all the time. If you leave this forum it will be through your own choosing, be it choosing to leave, or being kicked for pissing people off.

You have a right to be whoever you want, but as has been stated before, this forum isn't a democracy and no one has a right to be here. It's all give and take.

[Mr Cool]

No Anthony, I editted his post. I can't remember exactly what was in it, but it wasn't useful and was mildly anti-social so I got rid of it.

Chris: he used flashpowder, not a normal firecracker, because normal (BP based) firecrackers don't have a sufficient energy density to cause ANNM to detonate.

[Chris Shiherlis]

Just on my way out.....I just complimented Wantsomfet and hoped that he could help me out because he is one of the few here that knows what he is doing and talking about. At the same time I was also "mildly anti-social" because that suggests that many here on the Forum don't know what they're talking about and sometimes even lack the most basic knowledge of explosives and what's even worse: just deny the facts that are presented (see the never ending flashpowder story: they still are arguing what detonation/deflagration actually is and are making up their own defintion that fits, while clear scientific definitions were presented that could end the discussion).

Oh and MrCool: so now BP-firecrackers don't have enough 'energy density' (no, they don't. And quotation marks aren't needed, the term energy density is not something I made up. Mr Cool.) to detonate AN/NM. I thought you said BP could set off even PETN (no, I said MHN. Mr Cool.) (not under normal conditions it isn't!) to illustrate BP is able to detonate secondary high explosives (the hell it isn't!). But maybe I'm mildly anti-social again.
And Anthony, I wished I could stay but some people really hate me by now (not my intention) and I'm willing to fit in but not at every expense. It clearly ends when people deny facts. That really pisses me off and then I piss them off. I tried it with humor, tried it with facts, even put my life on the line. And the sad thing is that in the end nothing has come out of it, I didn't get that blowjob and still have to go. But the movie always has a happy ending doesn't it? So let's just see what Wantsomfet has to say :) . It will surely be my post mortem rehabilitation.

OK guys I'm gone. Dead. Never to be heard of again.

<small>[ May 30, 2002, 08:54 AM: Message edited by: Mr Cool ]</small>

[kingspaz]

chris, you don't have to go. i think you could be a good member if you changed you attitude and didn't piss other people off in retaliation. and no you did not present facts in the flash powder thread, you presented regurgitated nonsense and only the so called 'facts' that would support your argument. not the ones that disproved it.

also, ANNM is much less sensitive than straight PETN.
lets get this back on topic now!

[nbk2000]

Well Chris, you seem to achieved your goal of being banned.

It's one thing to be arrogant to the point of being borish, but that only flys here if you've got serious skills to back it up with. If you were an asshole JPL/Sandia explosives engineer, then we'd put up with the shit to get the diamonds within.

However, in your case, all we're getting is steaming piles of shit with cubic zircona inside. Oh sure, it looks good, but it's worthless.

Normally, I'm all for having someone around to stir things up a bit. Keeps us on our toes. But only if they have SOMETHING to contribute.

Only thing we get from you is a fetish about flashpowder detonating. How's that productive? It's not.

Thus HED for the flash fetishist.

Too bad. Seemed like he might have been a good member if it wasn't for the 'tude.