megalomania
May 10th, 2003, 09:40 PM
radar
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From: Redding California
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posted 01-09-2001 01:42 AM
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Hey, any of you guys know some of the more common nitration recipes that are done without nitric acid but instead involve adding some nitrate to the bath to make nitric acid? Thanks.
sadsakjoel
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posted 01-13-2001 01:50 AM
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do you mean like picric acid with aspirin? where you mix the acid from aspirin with sulfuric and potassium or sodium nitrate instead of nitric acid? If this is what your talking about I'll post the rest later.
radar
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From: Redding California
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posted 01-13-2001 02:12 AM
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No, I already know about that one, something like maybe NG or RDX, or TNT, or EGDN.
Stone
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posted 01-13-2001 04:20 AM
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Yes, recipes LIKE the picric acid one. Does that idea work for any other nitrations that usually require HNO3?
Anthony
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posted 01-13-2001 09:56 AM
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Apparently it will only work for simple nitrations like NG/NC etc. I'd say RDX without HNO3 is asking for a bit much! (i.e no chance!)
Mr Cool
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posted 01-13-2001 11:47 AM
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Yeah, I've heard that impurities of sulphur compounds can cause very low yields when making RDX by decomposing one of the intermediate reactants I think.
I know for a fact that it works when making NC, because that's the method I use.
radar
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From: Redding California
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posted 01-13-2001 07:48 PM
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Well, Mr. Cool, can you give me your exact method for making NC, I bet this would work for EGDN as well due to the acids being the same.
Mr Cool
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posted 01-14-2001 07:22 AM
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Sure. I use 1 gram of sodium nitrate, added to 4ml of cold 98% H2SO4 and stir it to dissolve the NaNO3. Let it cool to around 5 C by placing the reaction beaker in a bowl of iced water. When this temperature has been reached, put in 2 grams of cotton wool (the absorbent stuff from pharmacies etc.), and hold it under the acid with a glass rod, while stirring continuously for 20 to 30 minutes at 5 to 15 C. Then get the NC out with the glass rod and plunge it into 100ml of 10% NaHCO3 solution, then rinse it with water, then again with sodium bicarbonate solution and so on until the wash with water is neutral, pH7. Then dissolve the NC in acetone to form a runny liquid (not very concentrated NC solution), and filter it through a fine mesh to remove any unreacted cotton. Evapourate the acetone, and you'll be left with pure NC. I then CAREFULLY file it into a powder, slowly with a hand file and store it under 2% NaHCO3 solution. Obviously this can be scaled up to produce any amount.
I suppose the same basic method would work for EGDN.
Anthony
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posted 01-14-2001 09:02 AM
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Sounds good! Two questions, can you use KNO3 instead of NaNO3? Will 91% H2SO4 work or will I need to go out and buy a hotplate to concentrate it?
Mr Cool
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posted 01-14-2001 09:27 AM
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KNO3 will work, but remember: K (39 atomic mass units) atoms are heavier than Na (23 a.m.u.) atoms, so each gram of KNO3 will contain less NO3- ions than a gram of NaNO3, so adjust the amount accordingly.
91%? Hmmm.... I think that'd work, but it might be worth getting a hot plate because it won't work for many other explosives. Where did you get the H2SO4 from? I'm having to boil battery acid, which is dangerous, boring, time consuming and very expensive.
Anthony
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posted 01-14-2001 12:08 PM
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Ok, I'll get the calculator our later and work that out. The H2SO4 is "one-shot drain cleaner" available from B&Q Wharehouse stores, £4.99 for 1L.
radar
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posted 01-14-2001 03:51 PM
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Will this work with ammonium nitrate? THanks
Anthony
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posted 01-14-2001 07:20 PM
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Isn't NC hard to detonate? Or do you just use this stuff as a low explosive?
SATANIC
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posted 01-15-2001 01:21 AM
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what is the process by which you purify the H2SO4? straight boiling? I thought you couldn't boil it over a certain % before it will not purify any more. How do you test the conc. when finished? thanks in advance.
Mr Cool
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posted 01-15-2001 01:30 PM
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It will work with AN if you: a) dry it in a low oven first, and b) adjust the amount used so that you have the same amount of nitrate ions.
NC isn't very hard to detonate, as long as it's got a high enough N percentage. It's much easier than TNT, ANFO or ammonium picrate for example, and about the same as RDX I think. Also, since it's a very energetic deflagrant, it can make the transition from deflagration to detonation if fairly large quantities are ignited in a strong container. I normally use it as a low explosive or a plasticiser for AN or RDX with things like NM, but I do sometimes use it as a base charge in detonators.
Boiling can get H2SO4 to about 95-98%. The boiling point will rise to something like 140 C, but I don't know the exact figure. You can test the specific gravity with a hydrometer which you can buy at places that sell wine making kits. 98% H2SO4 has a specific gravity of 1.84 (H2O = 1).
Anthony
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posted 01-15-2001 06:00 PM
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Ah, I was thinking of smokeless powder NC, I didn't think it would be easier to nirate further than that.
I worked out 1.7gm of kno3 should give the same number of nitrate ions as 1gm NaNO3.
I tried it today, I used five timmes your figures, 20ml 91% H2SO4, 8.5gm KNO3, 10gm cotton wool. Having added all the kno3 (in an ice bath) and after a while of stirring, there were crutsy white lumps left, I figured either these were impurities in the kno3 (the only thing I could think would be in there would be chalk which should have dissolved) or the solution was saturated. I ran the solution through a fine sieve that got rid the crap, the solution was yellow at this point.
While I was weighing out the cotton wool I relaised that there was no way in hell I was going to get all that cottn wool into such a small volume so I shredded and added enough so that ther remained enough liquid to cover the soaked wool (I reckon about 1/2gm). I stirred it for 20mins then left it for another 20 to have a cup of tea. I washed it in 10% sodium bicarbonate solution (lots of foaming!) 3 times with and equal number of plain water washes in between. I fished out the lump of wool and put it in cheap, clear, no additive nail varnish remover, I'm going to leave it till tommorrow to give it fair chance to dissolve (had a white soup after a few mins so I guess at least some of it has dissolved).
I kept a check on the temperature of the solution when stirring the wool and it stayed at 7*C throughout.
How on earth do you get 2gm cotton wool into 4ml of liquid?! Does it sound like I've seriously messed up? If this works it would be good because it's really thrifty with the acid and cotton wool costs nothing.
Thanks for the procedure!
Mr Cool
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posted 01-16-2001 01:13 PM
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Sorry! I made a mistake in the method. I meant to say 0.2 grams of cotton wool per 4ml of H2SO4, not 2 grams! I can see why you might have been a bit confused!
Also, I really think it would be better to use 98% H2SO4, because during the nitration, water is produced. When the acid conc. gets below a certain point, the nitration practically stops. It would obviously reach this point a lot sooner if you're using 91% acid, so the cellulose might not be as fully nitrated.
Don't worry, the nitration mixture should be yellow, due to the formation of nitric acid and nitrogen oxides in it.
Potassium nitrate is considerably less soluable than sodium nitrate (in g/100g H2O), and also more of it is needed so maybe this is why it didn't all dissolve.
If the nail varnish remover is an acetone/water mixture, the NC might not dissolve fully, but it shouldn't really matter.
Also I forgot to mention (sorry!) that it's good to soak the NC in a weak, 1% or 2% sodium bicarbonate solution for 10 minutes or so at about 60 or 70 C to make it contain less acid, although the method I gave you should have done a pretty good job of that already.
So it should have worked the way you did it, but if it's not fully nitrated then try concentrating your acid further. The fact that it's dissolving in the acetone is obviously a good sign.
Let me know how you get on!
Hope this cleared things up a bit.
Anthony
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posted 01-16-2001 02:11 PM
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Ah, 0.2gm, certainly clears that problem up! I ran the NC/acetone through a fine sieve, the cotton wool recovered iso only about half of what went in so at least some of it hould have dissolved. It's evaporating now.
As I was doing the procedure I glanced at some of my stuff and realised I already have a box of NaNO3, doh.
I'll concentrate the acid for next time. I'm moving house at the end of the month and this one's got a nice shed I can permanetly setup as a lab, sort out a still and start doing things properly.
Mr Cool
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posted 01-16-2001 02:19 PM
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Yeah, a nitric acid still is essential for most high explosives if you're serious. And try to get an extractor fan in the shed, to get some nice clean air in while you're using it!
Does anyone know how much a couple of acres of land is?! I really want a pyrotechnics liscence!
Smartguy
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posted 01-16-2001 02:45 PM
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quote:
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Originally posted by Anthony:
Apparently it will only work for simple nitrations like NG/NC etc. I'd say RDX without HNO3 is asking for a bit much! (i.e no chance!)
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Well, Anthony, you're wrong. One of the better recipes for making RDX doesn't use HNO3. It uses ammonium nitrate and acetic anhydride. The latter will be a problem, though: you probably will have a difficult time obtaining it.
I'll try if I can retrieve this recipe for you...
[This message has been edited by Smartguy (edited January 16, 2001).]
Anthony
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posted 01-16-2001 02:50 PM
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Shall do. I suppose it depends what kind of land! Land suitable for beuilding on is about £12 a square yard (or metre)IIRC but a field that's is useless for growing stuff or grazing should cost very much at all. Have you got something that lists the requiremnts for a pyro license? COuld be an interesting read.
Mr Cool
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posted 01-17-2001 10:55 AM
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As far as I'm aware, the NH4NO3/acetic anhydride method for making RDX uses a different reaction than nitrate/H2SO4 reactions, which use the H2SO4 and a nitrate to form nitric acid in solution.
I've got the requirements for a liscence that enables you to make small amounts of low explosives written down somewhere. I'll try and find it for you if you like. Basically, the place where you make them has to be at least a certain distance from roads or anyone else's property, you need a well made place to make them in with all the safety stuff, and you need to convince them that you're not mad.
How's the NC?!
Anthony
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posted 01-17-2001 02:02 PM
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The NC worked, it wasn't very well nitrated so it didn't burn very fast but I will try again soon with higher conc H2SO4. Once again, thanks for the synthesis!
"you need to convince them that you're not mad" - Damn.
Can acetic anhydride not be synthesised from glacial acetic acid? If do manage to synthesise RDX using H2SO4/NH4NO3 and post your results I'll gladly eat my words.
Mr Cool
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posted 01-17-2001 02:38 PM
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Try a more concentrated H2SO4, and if you like I bet you could take the reaction temperature higher, to about 25 C without any danger of runaway nitration. And I think NaNO3 would be better than KNO3 due to it's higher soluability, but make sure you dry it first.
The sanity problem has always been the main obstacle for me as well! Quack quack.
Where exactly did you buy your H2SO4 drain opener? I've just looked in the Nottingham B&Q Warehouse, but they didn't have it! What section is it in? Would you consider selling me some if I can't find it?! If so, how much would you ask for 3L, including postage etc? I really need some!
Acetic anhydride can be made from glacial acetic acid by bubbling the thermal decomposition products of acetone through it. I forget what the gas is called. It shouldn't be very hard to do, but might take a bit of adjustment to make it work well (temp. etc.)
Anthony
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posted 01-17-2001 03:41 PM
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I think it's ketane, it'd be a lot of effort to set up, but once yoy have it working then it'd be easy to run off batches.
I got my H2SO4 from Northampton B&Q Warehouse, it's in the plumbing section (same isle as the copper plumbing IIRC) with a bunch of other drain cleaners. There's also a small diy shop a few miles from me that sells it, it's £4.99 for a 1L bottle, I can send you some if you can't find it. It's need packing well because parcels get chucked about "a bit".
I'll try the NC without the ice bath next time (maybe have one on standby) if 25*C is OK. What are the dangers of run away nitration aside from the solution boiling and billowing toxic fumes? Is there a detonation risk?
Agent Blak
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posted 01-17-2001 04:44 PM
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What about for PETN?
does anybody know if you could use this method for that? and if so how much would you need to replace the HNO3?
Your help it greatly appreciated.
------------------
A wise man once said:
"... As He Waits For The Time When The Last Become First And,
The First Shall Become last"
--RATM
Agent Blak-------OUT!!
sadsakjoel
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posted 01-18-2001 04:10 AM
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If your problem is that you cant find nitric acid i know of an explosive (primary) that doesnt use any, TACC it involves copper sulfate which is what your looknig for and wither the copper sulfate you make TACC tell me if this is of any use and i will post the entire pocess later.
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All there is to fear is your own co-ordination
Mr Cool
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posted 01-18-2001 02:12 PM
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That's what I thought: Lots of effort to set up, but simple to run.
I've heard, although I didn't really want to try it, that there's absolutely no risk of a detonation or rapid decomposition from runaway nitration until you get to about 80 or 90*C for NC. At 25*C it would nitrate substantially quicker than at 5*C or so.
I've never seen a method like this for PETN, but I can't think of a reason why it wouldn't work. I'll try and find out for you. Where can you get PE? Or do you make it? I know how to make it, but it seems quite hard because I'd also have to make the reactants.
I know of TACC, but have never tried it. I'd like to see the methid you use.
Agent Blak
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posted 01-18-2001 02:53 PM
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I am going to find out if I can do it via this method before I start looking for it.
------------------
A wise man once said:
"... As He Waits For The Time When The Last Become First And,
The First Shall Become last"
--RATM
Agent Blak-------OUT!!
Frequent Poster
Posts: 73
From: Redding California
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 01-09-2001 01:42 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey, any of you guys know some of the more common nitration recipes that are done without nitric acid but instead involve adding some nitrate to the bath to make nitric acid? Thanks.
sadsakjoel
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Posts: 170
From:
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 01-13-2001 01:50 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
do you mean like picric acid with aspirin? where you mix the acid from aspirin with sulfuric and potassium or sodium nitrate instead of nitric acid? If this is what your talking about I'll post the rest later.
radar
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From: Redding California
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posted 01-13-2001 02:12 AM
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No, I already know about that one, something like maybe NG or RDX, or TNT, or EGDN.
Stone
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posted 01-13-2001 04:20 AM
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Yes, recipes LIKE the picric acid one. Does that idea work for any other nitrations that usually require HNO3?
Anthony
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From: England
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posted 01-13-2001 09:56 AM
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Apparently it will only work for simple nitrations like NG/NC etc. I'd say RDX without HNO3 is asking for a bit much! (i.e no chance!)
Mr Cool
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posted 01-13-2001 11:47 AM
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Yeah, I've heard that impurities of sulphur compounds can cause very low yields when making RDX by decomposing one of the intermediate reactants I think.
I know for a fact that it works when making NC, because that's the method I use.
radar
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posted 01-13-2001 07:48 PM
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Well, Mr. Cool, can you give me your exact method for making NC, I bet this would work for EGDN as well due to the acids being the same.
Mr Cool
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posted 01-14-2001 07:22 AM
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Sure. I use 1 gram of sodium nitrate, added to 4ml of cold 98% H2SO4 and stir it to dissolve the NaNO3. Let it cool to around 5 C by placing the reaction beaker in a bowl of iced water. When this temperature has been reached, put in 2 grams of cotton wool (the absorbent stuff from pharmacies etc.), and hold it under the acid with a glass rod, while stirring continuously for 20 to 30 minutes at 5 to 15 C. Then get the NC out with the glass rod and plunge it into 100ml of 10% NaHCO3 solution, then rinse it with water, then again with sodium bicarbonate solution and so on until the wash with water is neutral, pH7. Then dissolve the NC in acetone to form a runny liquid (not very concentrated NC solution), and filter it through a fine mesh to remove any unreacted cotton. Evapourate the acetone, and you'll be left with pure NC. I then CAREFULLY file it into a powder, slowly with a hand file and store it under 2% NaHCO3 solution. Obviously this can be scaled up to produce any amount.
I suppose the same basic method would work for EGDN.
Anthony
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posted 01-14-2001 09:02 AM
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Sounds good! Two questions, can you use KNO3 instead of NaNO3? Will 91% H2SO4 work or will I need to go out and buy a hotplate to concentrate it?
Mr Cool
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posted 01-14-2001 09:27 AM
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KNO3 will work, but remember: K (39 atomic mass units) atoms are heavier than Na (23 a.m.u.) atoms, so each gram of KNO3 will contain less NO3- ions than a gram of NaNO3, so adjust the amount accordingly.
91%? Hmmm.... I think that'd work, but it might be worth getting a hot plate because it won't work for many other explosives. Where did you get the H2SO4 from? I'm having to boil battery acid, which is dangerous, boring, time consuming and very expensive.
Anthony
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posted 01-14-2001 12:08 PM
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Ok, I'll get the calculator our later and work that out. The H2SO4 is "one-shot drain cleaner" available from B&Q Wharehouse stores, £4.99 for 1L.
radar
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posted 01-14-2001 03:51 PM
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Will this work with ammonium nitrate? THanks
Anthony
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posted 01-14-2001 07:20 PM
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Isn't NC hard to detonate? Or do you just use this stuff as a low explosive?
SATANIC
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posted 01-15-2001 01:21 AM
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what is the process by which you purify the H2SO4? straight boiling? I thought you couldn't boil it over a certain % before it will not purify any more. How do you test the conc. when finished? thanks in advance.
Mr Cool
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posted 01-15-2001 01:30 PM
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It will work with AN if you: a) dry it in a low oven first, and b) adjust the amount used so that you have the same amount of nitrate ions.
NC isn't very hard to detonate, as long as it's got a high enough N percentage. It's much easier than TNT, ANFO or ammonium picrate for example, and about the same as RDX I think. Also, since it's a very energetic deflagrant, it can make the transition from deflagration to detonation if fairly large quantities are ignited in a strong container. I normally use it as a low explosive or a plasticiser for AN or RDX with things like NM, but I do sometimes use it as a base charge in detonators.
Boiling can get H2SO4 to about 95-98%. The boiling point will rise to something like 140 C, but I don't know the exact figure. You can test the specific gravity with a hydrometer which you can buy at places that sell wine making kits. 98% H2SO4 has a specific gravity of 1.84 (H2O = 1).
Anthony
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posted 01-15-2001 06:00 PM
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Ah, I was thinking of smokeless powder NC, I didn't think it would be easier to nirate further than that.
I worked out 1.7gm of kno3 should give the same number of nitrate ions as 1gm NaNO3.
I tried it today, I used five timmes your figures, 20ml 91% H2SO4, 8.5gm KNO3, 10gm cotton wool. Having added all the kno3 (in an ice bath) and after a while of stirring, there were crutsy white lumps left, I figured either these were impurities in the kno3 (the only thing I could think would be in there would be chalk which should have dissolved) or the solution was saturated. I ran the solution through a fine sieve that got rid the crap, the solution was yellow at this point.
While I was weighing out the cotton wool I relaised that there was no way in hell I was going to get all that cottn wool into such a small volume so I shredded and added enough so that ther remained enough liquid to cover the soaked wool (I reckon about 1/2gm). I stirred it for 20mins then left it for another 20 to have a cup of tea. I washed it in 10% sodium bicarbonate solution (lots of foaming!) 3 times with and equal number of plain water washes in between. I fished out the lump of wool and put it in cheap, clear, no additive nail varnish remover, I'm going to leave it till tommorrow to give it fair chance to dissolve (had a white soup after a few mins so I guess at least some of it has dissolved).
I kept a check on the temperature of the solution when stirring the wool and it stayed at 7*C throughout.
How on earth do you get 2gm cotton wool into 4ml of liquid?! Does it sound like I've seriously messed up? If this works it would be good because it's really thrifty with the acid and cotton wool costs nothing.
Thanks for the procedure!
Mr Cool
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posted 01-16-2001 01:13 PM
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Sorry! I made a mistake in the method. I meant to say 0.2 grams of cotton wool per 4ml of H2SO4, not 2 grams! I can see why you might have been a bit confused!
Also, I really think it would be better to use 98% H2SO4, because during the nitration, water is produced. When the acid conc. gets below a certain point, the nitration practically stops. It would obviously reach this point a lot sooner if you're using 91% acid, so the cellulose might not be as fully nitrated.
Don't worry, the nitration mixture should be yellow, due to the formation of nitric acid and nitrogen oxides in it.
Potassium nitrate is considerably less soluable than sodium nitrate (in g/100g H2O), and also more of it is needed so maybe this is why it didn't all dissolve.
If the nail varnish remover is an acetone/water mixture, the NC might not dissolve fully, but it shouldn't really matter.
Also I forgot to mention (sorry!) that it's good to soak the NC in a weak, 1% or 2% sodium bicarbonate solution for 10 minutes or so at about 60 or 70 C to make it contain less acid, although the method I gave you should have done a pretty good job of that already.
So it should have worked the way you did it, but if it's not fully nitrated then try concentrating your acid further. The fact that it's dissolving in the acetone is obviously a good sign.
Let me know how you get on!
Hope this cleared things up a bit.
Anthony
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posted 01-16-2001 02:11 PM
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Ah, 0.2gm, certainly clears that problem up! I ran the NC/acetone through a fine sieve, the cotton wool recovered iso only about half of what went in so at least some of it hould have dissolved. It's evaporating now.
As I was doing the procedure I glanced at some of my stuff and realised I already have a box of NaNO3, doh.
I'll concentrate the acid for next time. I'm moving house at the end of the month and this one's got a nice shed I can permanetly setup as a lab, sort out a still and start doing things properly.
Mr Cool
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posted 01-16-2001 02:19 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, a nitric acid still is essential for most high explosives if you're serious. And try to get an extractor fan in the shed, to get some nice clean air in while you're using it!
Does anyone know how much a couple of acres of land is?! I really want a pyrotechnics liscence!
Smartguy
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Posts: 11
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 01-16-2001 02:45 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Anthony:
Apparently it will only work for simple nitrations like NG/NC etc. I'd say RDX without HNO3 is asking for a bit much! (i.e no chance!)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, Anthony, you're wrong. One of the better recipes for making RDX doesn't use HNO3. It uses ammonium nitrate and acetic anhydride. The latter will be a problem, though: you probably will have a difficult time obtaining it.
I'll try if I can retrieve this recipe for you...
[This message has been edited by Smartguy (edited January 16, 2001).]
Anthony
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posted 01-16-2001 02:50 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Shall do. I suppose it depends what kind of land! Land suitable for beuilding on is about £12 a square yard (or metre)IIRC but a field that's is useless for growing stuff or grazing should cost very much at all. Have you got something that lists the requiremnts for a pyro license? COuld be an interesting read.
Mr Cool
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posted 01-17-2001 10:55 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As far as I'm aware, the NH4NO3/acetic anhydride method for making RDX uses a different reaction than nitrate/H2SO4 reactions, which use the H2SO4 and a nitrate to form nitric acid in solution.
I've got the requirements for a liscence that enables you to make small amounts of low explosives written down somewhere. I'll try and find it for you if you like. Basically, the place where you make them has to be at least a certain distance from roads or anyone else's property, you need a well made place to make them in with all the safety stuff, and you need to convince them that you're not mad.
How's the NC?!
Anthony
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From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 01-17-2001 02:02 PM
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The NC worked, it wasn't very well nitrated so it didn't burn very fast but I will try again soon with higher conc H2SO4. Once again, thanks for the synthesis!
"you need to convince them that you're not mad" - Damn.
Can acetic anhydride not be synthesised from glacial acetic acid? If do manage to synthesise RDX using H2SO4/NH4NO3 and post your results I'll gladly eat my words.
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 01-17-2001 02:38 PM
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Try a more concentrated H2SO4, and if you like I bet you could take the reaction temperature higher, to about 25 C without any danger of runaway nitration. And I think NaNO3 would be better than KNO3 due to it's higher soluability, but make sure you dry it first.
The sanity problem has always been the main obstacle for me as well! Quack quack.
Where exactly did you buy your H2SO4 drain opener? I've just looked in the Nottingham B&Q Warehouse, but they didn't have it! What section is it in? Would you consider selling me some if I can't find it?! If so, how much would you ask for 3L, including postage etc? I really need some!
Acetic anhydride can be made from glacial acetic acid by bubbling the thermal decomposition products of acetone through it. I forget what the gas is called. It shouldn't be very hard to do, but might take a bit of adjustment to make it work well (temp. etc.)
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 01-17-2001 03:41 PM
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I think it's ketane, it'd be a lot of effort to set up, but once yoy have it working then it'd be easy to run off batches.
I got my H2SO4 from Northampton B&Q Warehouse, it's in the plumbing section (same isle as the copper plumbing IIRC) with a bunch of other drain cleaners. There's also a small diy shop a few miles from me that sells it, it's £4.99 for a 1L bottle, I can send you some if you can't find it. It's need packing well because parcels get chucked about "a bit".
I'll try the NC without the ice bath next time (maybe have one on standby) if 25*C is OK. What are the dangers of run away nitration aside from the solution boiling and billowing toxic fumes? Is there a detonation risk?
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 766
From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 01-17-2001 04:44 PM
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What about for PETN?
does anybody know if you could use this method for that? and if so how much would you need to replace the HNO3?
Your help it greatly appreciated.
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A wise man once said:
"... As He Waits For The Time When The Last Become First And,
The First Shall Become last"
--RATM
Agent Blak-------OUT!!
sadsakjoel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 170
From:
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 01-18-2001 04:10 AM
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If your problem is that you cant find nitric acid i know of an explosive (primary) that doesnt use any, TACC it involves copper sulfate which is what your looknig for and wither the copper sulfate you make TACC tell me if this is of any use and i will post the entire pocess later.
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All there is to fear is your own co-ordination
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 01-18-2001 02:12 PM
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That's what I thought: Lots of effort to set up, but simple to run.
I've heard, although I didn't really want to try it, that there's absolutely no risk of a detonation or rapid decomposition from runaway nitration until you get to about 80 or 90*C for NC. At 25*C it would nitrate substantially quicker than at 5*C or so.
I've never seen a method like this for PETN, but I can't think of a reason why it wouldn't work. I'll try and find out for you. Where can you get PE? Or do you make it? I know how to make it, but it seems quite hard because I'd also have to make the reactants.
I know of TACC, but have never tried it. I'd like to see the methid you use.
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 766
From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 01-18-2001 02:53 PM
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I am going to find out if I can do it via this method before I start looking for it.
------------------
A wise man once said:
"... As He Waits For The Time When The Last Become First And,
The First Shall Become last"
--RATM
Agent Blak-------OUT!!