DINGU.

[Mr Cool]

Firstly, yes I did search, and yes I found the old thread on these, but it was very long and had come away from nitrated glycoluril's, so I thought it better to start a new topic.

I have recently gained an interest in 1,5-dinitroglycoluril as a high explosive. I've managed to find little info on it, although from what I can gather its density is high and it is rather powerful. Consider that nitrourea has a VoD of around 7000 m/s, and DINGU is significantly denser. It has a good oxygen balance, detonating as follows:

(CHN(NO₂)C(O)NH)₂ --> 4CO + 2H₂O + 3N₂

and it has been considered as an insensitive replacement for RDX and TNT etc.

You're probably also aware of its more powerful relative, TENGU (1,3,5,7-tetranitroglycoluril), but as I see it, this explosive has many disadvantages for us. True, it has extreme power, but you need massive excesses of HNO3 and N2O5 and it is hydrolised very rapidly by water, due to the dinitrourea structures that it contains (although the 1,1,2,2-tetranitraminoethane produced should be rather explosive!).
DINGU on the other hand can be prepared by nitrating glycoluril with nitric acid (probably 70% HNO3 and H2SO4 can be used, as for urea, but correct me if I'm mistaken), and is stable enough in water that it can be purified from the 1,3-dinitro isomer by boiling in water; DINGU is only slowly hydrolised by boiling water (to 2CO₂ and 1,2-diamino-1,2-dinitraminoethane??).
So, how exactly is glycoluril made? Yes, condensation of glyoxal with urea. From the old thread I learnt that this reaction is easily done, 1 mole of glyoxal (as a 50% solution in water with polymerisation inhibiting agents) with 2.5 moles of urea, heat it to around 85*C for one hour with a pH between 0 and 1, and the glycoluril (which is only slightly water soluble) will precipitate. The yield should apparently be around 85%.
Now, under these conditions (hot, low pH), primary alcohols are easily oxidised to aldehydes and then carboxylic acids by potassium dichromate. So what about mixing ethylene glycol (1 mole. Some will be lost as oxalic acid, so you have a large excess of urea here, but that's good as it should reduce the amount of time that the glyoxal is hanging around in the oxidiser for), and urea sulphate (2.5 moles dissolved in water), adding extra acid to bring the pH well below 1, warming it to around 85*C, and dripping in a solution of potassium dichromate in water while stirring like crazy? This should hopefully precipitate glycoluril, should it not?

I will try this after I have another go at making guanidine nitrate, and after I try that weird method for making RDX. So since I'm normally quite lazy it may not be for a few weeks, but I will get it done.

In the meantime, please post what you know about DINGU (properties, preparation) or the preparation of glyoxal or glycoluril!

[Mr Cool]

Oh, also if anyone has info relating to ethylene dinitramine, please post that here too, since it's also a nitrated urea derivative that I've been looking into. COPAE has some useful information that I'll copy out here tomorrow after some sleep. Interestingly, it says that it passes the thermal stability test as well as PETN and tetryl, no decomposition after 100 hours at 100*C IIRC. I thought it was less stable than that, but it seems that apart from being acidic and quite reactive (so incompatible with some things) it's very stable.
I know it's made from N,N'-dinitroethyleneurea by hydrolysis, and that ethyleneurea can be made from urea and ethylene glycol. There's a text describing its manufacture on Lagen's page, but please post alternative synths if you know them. I believe you can use the normal mixed nitrating acid to form the dinitro-...

[simply RED]

What is used as a polymerization inhibitor?

[simply RED]

this is from alt engr explosives:
DNGU:
C4H4N6O6
mw: 232,1
OB: -27,6%
density: 1,94g/ccm
vod at 1,75 g/ccm confined: 7580 m/s
(misfire at max density!!!!)
defl point 225-250°C
decomp begins at 130°C
impact sensit 5-6 Nm
frict sensit 200-300 N

TNGU:
C4H2N8O10
mw: 322,1
OB: +5%
density: 2,01 g/ccm
vod confined at 1,95 g/ccm: 9150 m/s
defl point 237°C
imp sens 1,5-2 Nm

this is some more info
Tetranitroglycoluril has the formula III hereinbelow:

The substance is a very valuable crystalline high explosive. Tetranitroglycoluril has a good thermal stability since its thermal stability may be compared to that of penthrite. However, it outclasses penthrite and hexogen as to detonical properties. Only octogen approaches somewhat the detonical properties of tetranitroglycoluril. Tetranitroglycoluril undergoes no decomposition below 100 DEG C. Under vacuum at 90 DEG C., no more than 0.6 cm@3 of gases evolves from a one gram sample, after 40 hours.

At 60 DEG C., its stability under vacuum is 0.5 and 1.2 cm@3 /g after respectively 100 and 500 hours. At 75 DEG C., after 100 hours only 0.8 cm@3 of gases has evolved from a one gram sample. At 90 DEG, 100 DEG and 110 DEG C. and after 100 hours, the vacuum stability of tetranitroglycoluril is respectively 1.5, 3.2 and 6.0 cm@3 /g. At 60 DEG C., no gas evolution occurs between the end of the first hour and the 100th hour. These values of vacuum stability were obtained with the substance recrystallized from a mixture 1:1 methylene chloride-nitromethane However, we have found that the crude product, without recrystallization, is pure enough for all practical purposes. For instance, the crude product after 100 hours at 110 DEG C. under vacuum only evolves 10 cc/g of gas, which shows that the substance is stable and the evolution of gas is linear, not exponential.

Tetranitroglycoluril, valuable as an explosive, is a white crystalline solid which has explosion temperature of 200 DEG C., measured by differential thermal analysis, the heating being made at the rate of 5 DEG C. per minute.

The actual density (theoretical or crystal density) of the unrecrystallized tetranitroglycoluril is 1.98 g/cm@3 at 25 DEG C., measured in hexane with a pyknometer for solids. After recrystallization in nitromethane, the density is 2.02 g/cm@3 at 25 DEG C. The highest practical density of tetranitroglycoluril obtained by compression is 1.98 g/cm@3. Tetranitroglycoluril detonates at a rate of 9,200 m/s at this density of 1.98 g/cm@3, which is superior to the crystal densities of Hexogen or Octogen. In view of the fact that in practice, hexogen and octogen are used at densities which are less than the crystal densities, and this is accompanied by a marked decrease in their rates of detonation, tetranitroglycoluril possesses valuable properties which enable it to be used as a secondary crystalline high explosive instead of and in place of hexogen or octogen.

[Mr Cool]

I tried that method I outlined in my first post for making glycoluril, and guess what? Failure :( I'm not surprised, the "chuck everything in a flask and boil it" kind of methods often don't work! I think probably the ethylene glycol was oxidised to 2-hydroxyethanal, which was oxidised to 2-hydroxyethanoic acid before the hydroxyl on the second carbon was oxidised, because a carbonyl's carbon would be more positively charged than a 1* alcohol's carbon and so the oxidising specie in the reaction was attracted to it more strongly. I'm not entirely sure about that, because I must admit that I can't remember what the oxidising specie is in the reaction!

So for now I have given up on DINGU unless I find a glyoxal synth that I like, and am thinking more about ethylene diamine...
(actually I've heard about glyoxal being made by oxidising ethylene glycol with nitric acid, which could be worth trying)

Anyway, now I need to make ethylene urea. I don't have the equipment to heat ethylene glycol and urea under pressure, which is the only way of making ethylene urea (imidazolidone) that I have found so far...
I have another idea that I intend to try though, when I get some more methylene dichloride. What do you suppose would happen if one was to use ethanol to make ethene, and bubble this through a solution of iodine in methylene dichloride, then react the diiodoethane with urea?
I know amides don't react with haloalkanes as fast as amines do, but it should still be relatively easy since iodoalkanes are quite reactive...
That's the only other method I can think of at the moment, unless the method with ethylene glycol and urea can be catalysed somehow.
(There's no way I'm using EDA and phosgene!)

[nbk2000]

Check the Hive for various types of homemade pressure vessels. They use it for hydrogenation reductions.

How much pressure are you needing?

[Hystrix]

I have this data for DINGU
(in addition to Simply Red):
---------------------------
VoD at 1.9 g/ccm: 8790 m/s (unfortunately, I don't remember, is it experimental or calculated VoD)
Impact sensitivity: 88..125 cm (RDX has 30..32 cm at same conditions)

Mr. Cool: look US pat. 2,731,472 for glycoluril preparation and US pat. 4,211,874 for DINGU preparation. By the way, I know that acetaldehyde can be oxidised with HNO3 to glyoxal but I don't remember glycol oxidation with HNO3. Does it work?

[Microtek]

I'm reviving this old thread as I have just added a litre of 40 % glyoxal soln to my lab inventory.
Naturally, one of the first things I had to try was nitrated glycolurils.
The condensation of glyoxal and urea was very rapid and easy as it simply involved mixing one mol of glyoxal with 2.5 mol urea in water and adjusting pH before heating. Shortly after reaching 75 C, large amounts of white precipitate appeared and gradually over the course of one hour assumed a slightly cream or off-white colour. The product was washed but was too insoluble to be purified by recrystallization from water.
After drying, about 5 g was dissolved in white fuming nitric acid ( 20 mL ) while holding temp at 30 to 40 C and stirred for 10 min at this temp.
Then temp was raised to 70 C and held there with stirring for 30 min, and finally heating was stopped and mix was allowed to come to 25 C with stirring.
Mix was then poured on crushed ice ( although much of the product had already precipitated ), and the DINGU was collected by filtration.

The process was a crude adaption of the continous process in US4211874 and the yield was not as good as the 90 % claimed in that patent, though it wasn't bad either.

About half of the DINGU was treated according to US4487938 in an attempt to convert it into TNGU. This resulted in a small amount ( ca 0.6 g ) of dense white powder which was isolated without the use of water.

A small amount of this supposed TNGU was suspended in warm water overnight and this gave another, more fluffy ( while in suspension ) white powder. More of a seemingly identical product was obtained by diluting the mother liquor of the nitration with water and leaving overnight to precipitate.

The three nitrated derivatives ( DINGU, TNGU and the hydrolysis product of TNGU which might be called 1,1,2,2-tetra(nitramino)ethane - TNAE ) were tested for impact sensitivity and detonability:
The detonability test consisted of hand pressing the explosive into a short length of drinking straw, 2.5 mm in diameter. Then pressing ca 4 mm PETN on top and finally an initiating charge of lead azide/styphnate 80:20.
All three explosives detonated fully against a witness plate of wood, although
the DINGU seemed somewhat less powerful than the other two ( particularly the TNGU ).
Impact sensitivity was determined in a rather subjective manner by confining a tiny sample in Al-foil and placing it on a steel anvil. Then I hit it with a hammer with incresing force until it explodes. Some reference points for this test are: Solid nitric esters such as MHN or PETN explode easily when struck squarely. HMTD and AP need only a slight tap. RDX requires determined pounding.
In this test, the TNGU and TNAE exploded quite easily, about like PETN or perhaps a bit less willingly. DINGU could not be set off in this manner by me, even with full-armed swings that put small dents in the hammer.

[megalomania]

I completed a write up of DINGU for my website about 2 months ago. I had not previously known about US patent 4,211,874, but having read it now I think it is needlessly complex unless you run a factory. The process I have seems rather succint in comparison, much better suited to the lab.

Synthesis of DINGU

DINGU, an acronym for dinitroglycoluril, is a stable high explosive compound. Other names for DINGU include tetrahydro-1,4-dinitro-imidazo[4,5-d]imidazole-2,5(1H,3H)-dione; 1,4-dinitroglycoluril; dinitroacetylenediurein; and DNGU. DINGU was first prepared in 1888 by the team of Franchimont and Klobbie. During WWII its explosive properties were evaluated and it was found to be less than desirable for military use. Although it is an insensitive explosive with power equal to that of TNT it is not thermally stable. DINGU exists in three isomers,: 1,3; 1,4; and 1,6. Of the three isomers the 1,3 version is unstable and the 1,4 is the main product of any synthesis. DINGU also finds a use in the preparation of the much more powerful and stable explosive TNGU.

Dry a sample of glycoluril at 70 C in an oven. Slowly add, with stirring, 10 g of glycoluril to a beaker containing 100 mL of 100% nitric acid at room temperature. While stirring the mixture warm it to 55 C for 1 hour. Slowly pour the mixture into another beaker containing 200 mL of boiling water. The boiling water treatment will decompose the unstable 1,3-dinitroglycoluril isomer as evidenced by the evolution of gas. Cool the slurry in an ice bath to 0 C and filter to collect the precipitate of DINGU. Wash the precipitate with ice cold water until it is neutral to litmus, rinse it with ethyl alcohol, and allow it to dry. The final product is a mixture of 1,4 and 1,6 isomers.

According to British patent GB1442259 the preparation of DINGU is described in Beilstein volume XXVI, 4th edition, pg 443. DINGU is prepared from glycoluril which is also included in the Beilstein reference. I think I can get that volume of Beilstein. I will get to that as I do my next round of precursor research.

There are several synthesis references for DINGU, but only one seems to be in English.

On the use of AM1 and PM3 methods on energetic compounds. De Paz, Jose Luis G.; Ciller, Juan. Dep. I+D, Union Espanola Explosivos, Madrid, Spain. Propellants, Explosives, Pyrotechnics (1993), 18(1), 33-40.

There are several patents in foreign languages: Slovakian patent 235587, Slovakian patent 235585, Czech patent 223661, and German patent 2462330.

There are a few other foreign journals if you can read them:

Synthesis and nitration of bicyclic thiourea derivatives. Zhu Chunhua; Hong, Guanlin; Zhang, Zhizhong. Xi'an Modern Chemistry Research Institute, Xi'an, Peop. Rep. China. Hanneng Cailiao (1997), 5(4), 165-170. (Written in Chinese)

Crystallization conditions for dinitroglycouril. Fang, Yingao; Li, Fangchang. Xian Modern Chem. Res. Inst., Xian, Peop. Rep. China. Hanneng Cailiao (1996), 4(2), 62-67. (Written in Chinese)

Preparation of nitro and nitroacetyl derivatives of glycouril. I. Boileau, J.; Wimmer, E.; Carail, M.; Gallo, R. SNPE, Paris, Fr. Bulletin de la Societe Chimique de France (1986), (3), 465-9. (Written in French)

Dinitroglycolurile and Sorguyl - preparations-properties. Boileau, J.; Emeury, J. M.; De Longueville, Y.; Monteagudo, P. Soc. Natl. Poudres Explos., Paris, Fr. Internationale Jahrestagung - Fraunhofer-Institut fuer Treib- und Explosivstoffe (1981), (Chem. Mech. Technol. Treib-Explosivst.), 505-26. (Written in French)

[Hex]

If anyone's got some formamide to go with their glyoxal they might want to have a go at making this stuff, there's various recipies available for making the precursor (the 2,3,5,6-tetrahydroxy), it's simply a case of mixing the molar quantities (2:1 formamide:glyoxal, in soln or as the trimer/polymer) of the two and adjusting the pH to 8 regularly with sodium bicarb. The product precipitates after 3 days...if anyone's keen I'll post the full detail. The nitration is done in 25ml/7.5 ml 100% nitric/acetic anhyd. per gram of tetrahydroxy at 0 degs for Ih - the product is insoluble and is washed with water. Can't remember the exact VoD off hand, but think it was 8000+. I think it's sensitive enough to be used as a primary (it was once touted as a possible lead free cap filler).

Hello, hello, it's good to be back...

[Hex]

Some abstracts realting to glycouril/glyoxal - unfortunately, the full texts are in Japanese or Chinese, but there might be enough details here for someone to have a stab. Interesting to see that glycouril "is known as a slow release fertilizer"



Abstract

AcH is oxidized with HNO3, then the concn. of org. acid in the reaction soln. is adjusted to 5-40 molar % to the concn. of glyoxal in said reaction soln., and the mixt. treated with urea at 60-80° to give 68% glycoluril.

Glycouril (I), useful as a crosslinking agent for acrylic coatings, was prepd. by reacting glyoxal (II) with urea. The yield of I was 71.4% under the reaction conditions of pH 1-2, feeding rate of I into the aq. urea soln. .apprx.1 mL/min, urea-II molar ratio 2.5, temp. 75-80°, and reaction time 4 h in the presence of a H2SO4 catalyst. The product was characterized by IR and DSC.


Glycoluril, known as a slow-release fertilizer, is prepd. by dropwise addn. of aq. glyoxal (I) soln. to aq. soln. contg. I and 50 wt.% to satd. concn. of urea, in the presence of acid catalyst, and reacting urea with I at urea/I 2.01-2.3 mol ratio and 50-100°. Aq. soln. of 40% I was dropwise added over 1 h to aq. soln. contg. 40% I (prepd. by oxidn. of ethylene glycol with mol. O), urea, and HCl at ³85° and the mixt. was left at ³85° for 3 h to give 93.4% glycoluril.

[Microtek]

I am interested in preparing the diformyltetrahydroxypiperazine, as a precursor to HHTDD, to the tetranitrato derivative and lastly having a go at condensing it with tetranitraminoethane ( from hydrolysis of TeNGU ) to see if HNIW can be reached that way, as you suggested some time ago.
The problem is that I can't order formamide from my supplier; I haven't got the neccessary permits.
So... Have anyone got a good preparatory method for it ? I was thinking about "ammonlysis" of ethylformate, but I'm not sure that the ethylformate itself will be so easy considering the instability of formic acid.

[Rosco Bodine]

Formamide is extremely easy to make via thermal decomposition
of ammonium formate solution . Simply place formic acid in a
boiling flask and then do a dropwise addition / neutralization with
an excess of theory of strong ammonia water , slowly enough
that the heat of neutralization doesn't boil away your ammonia .
Attach a large bore distillation condenser cooled only with plain
water not cold , and distill until a sharp temperature rise in the
distilling flask indicates the residual liquid is formamide . Plain
water comes over during the distillation , and ammonia and
carbon dioxide , which causes a plugging up of the cool end
of the condenser with solid ammonium carbonate if you have
the condenser too cold . If the condenser is allowed to run
warm from the steam also coming through , the heat will decompose
the solid ammonium carbonate sufficiently fast as it forms , and
prevent the deposit from caking heavily and plugging the bore
of the condenser . Regulating the coolant flow to a low level
of cooling will make this manageable . The conversion of the
aqueous ammonium formate residue to formamide and residual water ,
will be nearly complete when solid ammonium carbonate ceases to
deposit , and the solid residue volatilizes in the steam coming over .
Then just watch for your temperature peak which indicates you
have formamide remaining in the distillation flask as the residue .
You can distill the formamide residue if you wish , or use it as is .

[nbk2000]

UTFSE!

There's a patent listed that uses AN, paraformaldehyde, and urea, that forms formic acid that can be seperated off and used for this prep.

[Microtek]

Formic acid can also be prepared from oxalic acid and glycerine ( which is recycled ) in a cyclic batch process. This is the method that I use, as formaldehyde is not widely availible here.
A search on formamide turned up one speculative synthesis by Mr Cool, but no tested methods.

[Rosco Bodine]

The method which I described above certainly works
straightforwardly , the several times I have actually
done it that way . I'm sure it is a standard method
listed in the literature , but I don't have the citation handy .

Ooops ! This is so embarrassing :eek: My memory has failed me on
one tiny little technical point about the ammonium formate to
formamide synthesis , which I described above and I should
clarify this understandable error . The formamide is indeed
produced by simple dehydration of a boilout of aqueous ammonium
formate to a temperature peak as I described previously , but
only water comes over during that simple dehydration / distillation .

The deposit of ammonium carbonate only forms *later* on in
the condenser of the same distilling apparatus , if the formamide is
heated 30 minutes @ 150C with a Benzyl Methyl Ketone (phenyl-2-propanone)
or substituted variant thereof , to form a corresponding amphetamine
precursor in nearly quantitative yield . The evolution of ammonia
and carbon dioxide which deposits as ammonium carbonate is a
byproduct and visual indicator of the progress towards completion
of the Leukhart reaction . IIRC the amphetamine complex is then
hydrolyzed and converted to the hydrochloride by gently heating with
10% HCl for fifteen minutes , filtered , the filtrate basified with solid
NaOH to release the freebase as an oil , extracted with benzene or
toluene and vacuum distilled , then dissolved in denatured alcohol
and precipitated as the sulfate upon neutralization with 20% H2SO4 .
Or it may have just been all something I dreamed , long long ago ;)

[kurtz]

Preparation of formamide, from Systematic Organic Chemistry (#208, p. 300):

"150 ml. of pure formic acid are placed in a round-bottomed flask
attached to a condenser, and having also a delivery tube dipping nearly to
the bottom of the acid in the flask. Dry ammonia gas is led into the acid
through the delivery tube, passing first through a tower of solid caustic
soda, and then soda-lime. Much heat is evolved during the reaction, and
the flask must be cooled. After about 15 minutes the acid is neutralised,
and crystals of ammonium formate are deposited. The flask is then
heated on a paraffin bath, and at 150° the salt begins to decompose and
water passes over. The temperature is gradually raised to 180°, at which
temperature no more water distils over. The resulting brown liquid is
distilled under greatly reduced pressure, the fraction 85°--95° at 0.5 mm.
being collected After standing over anhydrous sodium sulphate for some
days, it is again distilled under reduced pressure.

Yield.--66% theoretical (98 gms.). Viscous colourless liquid; M.P.
2.25° ; D. 1.337 (JACS 40, 794.)"

From "Recreational Drugs":

"Formamide. In a 3 liter flask, equipped with a reflux condenser pointing downward, and a gas inlet tube run down close to the bottom of the flask, is placed 1,500 cc of pure formic acid. This is saturated with dry ammonia while being cooled externally with cold running water. The lower end of the condenser is connected to a suction flask, through the side of the outlet of which the ammonia is removed. The ammonia is admitted at such a rate, that the formic acid is neutralized in about 20 min. Crystals of ammonium formate appear at the cold upper portion of the flask, while the main portion remains melted. The stream of ammonia is now reduced and the flask is heated on an oil bath. At 150° water starts to distill over (yes, that's ° centigrade). The temp is increased slowly to 180°, during 4-5 hours, until nothing more distills. If the reaction is heated too long, the reaction mixture turns from its natural brown color to a dark-brownish black. Cool the distillate in a stream of ammonia and distill in vacuo. Collect the fraction coming over at 105-106° at 11 mm of vacuo. The melting point is usually given as 2-4° C."

Posted that to back up this: distillation of formamide at atm pressure is not recommended. That high of vacuum is unnecessary, though. It decomposes some, above 180C - giving CO and some HCN. HCN can be made in high yield by pyrolysis of formamide on Al2O3, btw.

As for ethyl formate, it seems not too hard to make, HCOOH is its own esterification catalyst. Haven't done this, though.

[Rosco Bodine]

Dry ammonia is absolutely not required .
Strong ammonia water ( 28% NH3 ) works just fine
along with 88% technical grade clear formic acid .

The formamide produced is water clear , and the
coversion is a whole lot faster and *much higher yield*
than those reports are saying . Nothing fancy required ,
just some ground jointed glassware in an open support frame
with a good old propane fired Tirrill burner and adjustable
immersion depth thermometer collet in the distillation adapter .
Heating is stopped when the temperature just reaches the boiling point
of formamide at atmosphere , at which point that is what the residue
in the flask consists , the water having distilled away and the
ammonium formate having decomposed to formamide . It is a
straightforward heat driven dehydration with no side reactions
nor byproducts , if it is done correctly .

Formamide is easy easy .

[tom haggen]

What exactly were you talking about when you said ammonium carbonate is formed? That only happens if you are boiling formamide in the ketone you were talking about. I take it that this is one of the causes of drug lab explosions? Since ammonium carbonate readily decomposes. By the way formic acid isn't exactly easy to get either.

[Rosco Bodine]

Ammonium carbonate is a byproduct of the reaction between formamide and benzyl methyl ketone ( phenylacetone ) , which produces a formyl derivative of amphetamine directly in high yield . It is a name reaction , Leuckart sp? ,
IIRC . In my reckless youth , it was a reaction which I performed a time or two as part of an experimental confirmation that yes indeed you can make a half kilo of amphetamine per run in a two liter flask with some pretty basic labglass and a good old bunsen burner . Of course , the powers that be got wise to the matter twenty years ago and very quickly made all the precursors unobtainable , but it was fun while it lasted .

Sodium formate is reportedly obtainable by oxidation of warm aqueous formaldehyde with hydrogen peroxide in the presence of NaOH . Acidification with H2SO4 and distillation gives formic acid . I have not personally attempted that reported method , nor do I have a reference , but it would seem pretty straightforward .

[tom haggen]

Yes I am familiar with that type of reaction. I was just trying to point out that ammonium carbonate decomposes violently in aqueous conditions, and with small amounts of heat, which in turn would make an explosion hazard :p

[Rosco Bodine]

I have to wonder where you get your information about any
explosion hazard for ammonium carbonate since in my experience
it is an entirely benign material .

[Microtek]

There must be some kind of mix up! There really is no reason ammonium carbonate should decompose energetically in water ( and indeed it doesn't; it is sold for use in baking around here, so it probably decomposes reversibly on heating to CO2, H2O and NH3 ).

[cutefix]

To my knowledge in food chemistry;The primary ammonia based leavening base is actually ammonium bicarbonate It is widely used by biscuit/cookie manufacturers. Some of the users who are not familiar with it just called it ammonium carbonate which is not true.

[Rosco Bodine]

Cupcakes beware ! The grim reaper is in the kitchen ! ;) :rolleyes: :D

[tom haggen]

Well I guess I interpeted some information incorrectly. I had started a thread over at the MSDB about pressurized gas production. One suggestion was to mix potassium carbonate with ammonium nitrate.

KCO3(aq) + NH4NO3(aq) --> KNO3(aq) + NH4CO3 (aq)

NH4CO3 (aq) --> NH3 + CO2 + H2O

that seems like a large production of gas to me. To much pressure could cause your glassware to explode.

[Rosco Bodine]

Hmmmm , there are those of us who would say that anyone
who would assemble an unvented or non-pressure relief equipped glass system ,
fully deserves to get blown apart for trifling with serious business
where they do *not* know what they are doing .

[tom haggen]

Good point. However, even if you do have a vented setup, if too much gas is produced to quickly and the vent isn't large enough to sufficiently release the excess gas... kaboom! Also I'm quite the beginner in this type of experimentation and you obviously have more experience than I, so I will greatfully take your advice. By the way sorry for getting so off topic, I was just intersted in synthesizing formamide, and this proved to be a useful place to find information on it.

[Rosco Bodine]

Yeah the first closed glassware system I assembled was thirty years ago
and it was vented , and so has every setup since , not only vented but
also having spring attached joints at additional breakaway points . It is
plain common sense and a strategy for survival . So is the airflow path
across your work area . These are things to keep in mind if you want
to live to be an old chemist , and even those precautions are no guarantee
of that , but certainly increase your chances . Understanding terms like
"reaction mass" , induction temperature , runaway or avalanche , and
reaction zone , and how to work reactions so they are kept "in the zone"
( predictable and rate controllable ) will help keep you alive . Ignoring
or not understanding those things is a sure trip to the hospital or cemetary .
Work it out on paper , then triple check your figures and think it through ,
know your fear and check your gear . Then check it again .