megalomania
May 18th, 2003, 03:36 PM
Noct
New Member
Posts: 3
From:
Registered: MAR 2001
posted 03-18-2001 12:27 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I recently bought the ingredients that I need to make black powder from pyrotek (pot nitrate, sulfur, charcoal), and this will be my first homemade explosive (with homemade ingredients anyway). I would like to know anything and everything about safety, strength, and danger having to do with making and using black powder.
I do have instructions, by the way, which are the method where you mix the ingredients, and add some water, then leave them in the sun to become a powder.
Any information would be appretiated.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 03-18-2001 02:34 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Danger, very insensitive to shock and friction, not particulary sensitive to static discharge. Ignition temperature is roughly around 300*C.
The powder *can* be equal in performance to commercial BP but you need to use proper methods.
The method you describe seems to be some kind of variant of the CIA method, although it sounds like one of the anarchist crapbook methods.
Do a search to get some information on the best methods for BP and also some links to good sites, this has been discussed before.
Pyro
Frequent Poster
Posts: 104
From: Danbury,CT,U.S.A
Registered: MAR 2001
posted 03-18-2001 05:55 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with anthony,that sounds like a crapbook method all the way.But,if your serious about making BP than i could explain it all to you write now(NO),or you could just goto www.ctel.net/~dwilliams to learn everything you need to know about BP.I would also reccomend buying the 2 books "Ball milling theory and practice for the amateur pyrotechnician" by lloyd sponenbourg and "Black powder manufacturing methods and techniques" by Ian von Malts.You'll learne everything you need to know from those to books(www.skylighter.com provides them both).Good luck,it's more work than it seems-Pyro
firebreether
Frequent Poster
Posts: 110
From:
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 03-18-2001 09:50 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NOCT, if you bought the stuff you needed from pyrotek, why did you say it will be your first homemade explosive with homemade ingredients? You didn't make the ingredients if you bought them from somewhere. Homemade ingr. would be like milling your own AL for Al powder, or making KClO3 with a chlorate cell. Anyway get a ball mill and best of luck.
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 618
From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 03-18-2001 10:22 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
and for the love of god, don't ball mill all the ingrediants at the same time. no need to be another statistic for finstien to use in her war againts freedom.
------------------
...Æ
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 766
From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 03-18-2001 11:04 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I like to use a Coffee Mill. Saves you money so you can buy a digital scale?
------------------
A wise man once said:
"...I Am Not Much of a Dancer But,
Just Wait Till The Fucking Begins"
Agent Blak-------OUT!!
Pyro
Frequent Poster
Posts: 104
From: Danbury,CT,U.S.A
Registered: MAR 2001
posted 03-19-2001 01:59 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Craghack-What are you talking about,"do not mill all the ingrediants together"?You are supposed to mix them together!-Pyro
------------------
Stand and be counted
DarkAngel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 592
From: ?
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 03-19-2001 02:11 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pyro:He says "don't BALL MILL all the ingredients at the same time" that something else than "MIX"
------------------
--==DarkAngel==--
For explosives and stuff go to Section1 http://www.section1.f2s.com
sendtosection1@hotmail.com
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 03-19-2001 03:09 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BP is really insensitive, I've always milled by ingredients together (the only way) and dry at that (don't mill if it cakes!). I reasoned that if Dan Williams does it then it must be pretty safe.
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 618
From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 03-19-2001 03:59 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i guess you could ball mill it all to get a nice mixture, but i wouldn't. one spark from the steel ball and kablammy. i would use lead balls if i were you if you are going to ball mill it all together.
------------------
...Æ
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 766
From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 03-19-2001 04:44 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You are supposed to use hardend Lead(Pb)balls not steal.
------------------
A wise man once said:
"...I Am Not Much of a Dancer But,
Just Wait Till The Fucking Begins"
Agent Blak-------OUT!!
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 03-19-2001 04:51 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I do use (home cast) lead balls, I also run the mill outside away from the house and barracaded with wooden boards just incase.
I've tested BP by passing the spark from a stungun through a pile of BP, I gave it a good few second blast and nothing happened. AP on the other hand goes off immediately.
firebreether
Frequent Poster
Posts: 110
From:
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 03-19-2001 05:41 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How did you home-cast lead?
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 03-19-2001 07:09 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Got two small blocks of wood, cut out a hemisphere in the centre of both, drilled through the centre of one hemisphere out the other side of the block of wood, clapmed the pieces togther (so that there is a sphere of wood missing inside with a hole leading to it) and poured lead down the hole. After removing the lead shpere from the wood I just sniped off the "stalk" (the lead that solidified in the filling hole).
Casting cylindrical media is easier, but probably not as efficient.
[This message has been edited by Anthony (edited March 19, 2001).]
Noct
New Member
Posts: 3
From:
Registered: MAR 2001
posted 03-19-2001 07:10 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am sorry, poor choice of words before. What I meant was, making the explosives from the chemicals that make it up. I have used matchheads, and stuff like that, but never made the explosive myself, if that makes any sense. I think I am going to go with the crapbook method and see how it goes. Thank you all for the tips, though!
Perhaps I will go with a mill as a later project.
mark
Frequent Poster
Posts: 195
From:
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 03-19-2001 07:27 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Are model rocket engines completley bp? Because their is a grey powder and a dark black powder in them. Im wondering because I just put some in my bp cannon, and it made a pussy bang. But when I left the ram rod in it, it still made a pussy bang, but it sent the ram rod fliying like a bullet until it hit a garrage.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 03-19-2001 07:53 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The grey stuff at either end of the motor (nozzle and end plug) is clay. Under the clay endplug, there is the ejection charge which is granulated BP, under this is is a pressed layer of grey delay composition. (on the motors I had, this stuff burned with a red flame) below this is that big black pressed BP fuel grain.
mark
Frequent Poster
Posts: 195
From:
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 03-19-2001 08:22 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So I shouldnt use the delay?
firebreether
Frequent Poster
Posts: 110
From:
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 03-19-2001 09:49 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What is the MP of lead? How did you melt it then pur it into a mould?
Jumala
Frequent Poster
Posts: 200
From: Germany
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 03-19-2001 10:05 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is my favorit blackpowder mfg. info.
http://www.elephantblackpowder.com/monk01.html
The other informations at the elephant site are also very interesting.
Jumala
Frequent Poster
Posts: 200
From: Germany
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 03-19-2001 10:17 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I forgot the leadballs.
It is unnesserary to make leadballs. You get them in gunshops in 20 or 50 pc. bags.
They are used for flintlock muskets and they are available up to 20mm diameter.
You can also use large chromated ballbearing balls. It isnīt dangerous because blackpower is always mixed while itīs wet. And wet BP donīt burn.
Read the monk01.html
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 03-20-2001 03:20 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Melting point of lead is about 400*C (depending if it's alloyed at all) I melted it in an old saucepan on a gas camping stove, you can do it on the kitchen cooker as if no one minds you making a bit of mess. A lid on the saucepan helps a lot and speeds up melting times. Also, when the lead is molten, turn the heat right down, (if the lead eventually starts soldifying, turn the heat up a fraction) you don't want it to hot (mine went a gold colour when over heated).
Muskett balls are good if you can get them, I can't.
I've found that wet powders don't mill well, it just cakes on the side of the milling jar. So I always mill dry, btw steel media not being so heavy may take longer to mill as the hammering effect will be less.
blackadder
Frequent Poster
Posts: 313
From: London
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 03-21-2001 04:05 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anthony, why did the Pb turn gold when it was overheated?
Sounds strange.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 03-21-2001 05:36 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't know, I just thought "that's getting too hot".
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 618
From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 03-21-2001 08:59 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
because when heated, it turns into PbO2. the added oxygen turns the once greay Pb into an orangish PbO2.
------------------
...Æ
blackadder
Frequent Poster
Posts: 313
From: London
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 03-22-2001 02:48 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, thanks Craighack.
oxyrad
New Member
Posts: 12
From: Perth,Western Australia
Registered: MAR 2001
posted 03-26-2001 05:23 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Could powdered graphite be used instead of charcoal.It is pure carbon?
------------------
YZ's are the best
firebreether
Frequent Poster
Posts: 110
From:
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 03-26-2001 03:05 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Graphite is pure carbon which wouldn't be as good as charcoal. Charcoal has slight impurities which make it burn faster.
Jumala
Frequent Poster
Posts: 200
From: Germany
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 03-26-2001 06:15 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh no, graphite donīt works for making BP.
Perhaps you get a powder from the black kind and perhaps it burns but it is no BP.
Read the monk01.html. the link is in my last reply.
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-05-2001 03:34 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Graphite is used to make the BP grain more glidy! It desensitise the powder to friction!
New Member
Posts: 3
From:
Registered: MAR 2001
posted 03-18-2001 12:27 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I recently bought the ingredients that I need to make black powder from pyrotek (pot nitrate, sulfur, charcoal), and this will be my first homemade explosive (with homemade ingredients anyway). I would like to know anything and everything about safety, strength, and danger having to do with making and using black powder.
I do have instructions, by the way, which are the method where you mix the ingredients, and add some water, then leave them in the sun to become a powder.
Any information would be appretiated.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 03-18-2001 02:34 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Danger, very insensitive to shock and friction, not particulary sensitive to static discharge. Ignition temperature is roughly around 300*C.
The powder *can* be equal in performance to commercial BP but you need to use proper methods.
The method you describe seems to be some kind of variant of the CIA method, although it sounds like one of the anarchist crapbook methods.
Do a search to get some information on the best methods for BP and also some links to good sites, this has been discussed before.
Pyro
Frequent Poster
Posts: 104
From: Danbury,CT,U.S.A
Registered: MAR 2001
posted 03-18-2001 05:55 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with anthony,that sounds like a crapbook method all the way.But,if your serious about making BP than i could explain it all to you write now(NO),or you could just goto www.ctel.net/~dwilliams to learn everything you need to know about BP.I would also reccomend buying the 2 books "Ball milling theory and practice for the amateur pyrotechnician" by lloyd sponenbourg and "Black powder manufacturing methods and techniques" by Ian von Malts.You'll learne everything you need to know from those to books(www.skylighter.com provides them both).Good luck,it's more work than it seems-Pyro
firebreether
Frequent Poster
Posts: 110
From:
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 03-18-2001 09:50 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NOCT, if you bought the stuff you needed from pyrotek, why did you say it will be your first homemade explosive with homemade ingredients? You didn't make the ingredients if you bought them from somewhere. Homemade ingr. would be like milling your own AL for Al powder, or making KClO3 with a chlorate cell. Anyway get a ball mill and best of luck.
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 618
From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 03-18-2001 10:22 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
and for the love of god, don't ball mill all the ingrediants at the same time. no need to be another statistic for finstien to use in her war againts freedom.
------------------
...Æ
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 766
From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 03-18-2001 11:04 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I like to use a Coffee Mill. Saves you money so you can buy a digital scale?
------------------
A wise man once said:
"...I Am Not Much of a Dancer But,
Just Wait Till The Fucking Begins"
Agent Blak-------OUT!!
Pyro
Frequent Poster
Posts: 104
From: Danbury,CT,U.S.A
Registered: MAR 2001
posted 03-19-2001 01:59 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Craghack-What are you talking about,"do not mill all the ingrediants together"?You are supposed to mix them together!-Pyro
------------------
Stand and be counted
DarkAngel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 592
From: ?
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 03-19-2001 02:11 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pyro:He says "don't BALL MILL all the ingredients at the same time" that something else than "MIX"
------------------
--==DarkAngel==--
For explosives and stuff go to Section1 http://www.section1.f2s.com
sendtosection1@hotmail.com
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 03-19-2001 03:09 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BP is really insensitive, I've always milled by ingredients together (the only way) and dry at that (don't mill if it cakes!). I reasoned that if Dan Williams does it then it must be pretty safe.
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 618
From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 03-19-2001 03:59 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i guess you could ball mill it all to get a nice mixture, but i wouldn't. one spark from the steel ball and kablammy. i would use lead balls if i were you if you are going to ball mill it all together.
------------------
...Æ
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 766
From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 03-19-2001 04:44 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You are supposed to use hardend Lead(Pb)balls not steal.
------------------
A wise man once said:
"...I Am Not Much of a Dancer But,
Just Wait Till The Fucking Begins"
Agent Blak-------OUT!!
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 03-19-2001 04:51 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I do use (home cast) lead balls, I also run the mill outside away from the house and barracaded with wooden boards just incase.
I've tested BP by passing the spark from a stungun through a pile of BP, I gave it a good few second blast and nothing happened. AP on the other hand goes off immediately.
firebreether
Frequent Poster
Posts: 110
From:
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 03-19-2001 05:41 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How did you home-cast lead?
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 03-19-2001 07:09 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Got two small blocks of wood, cut out a hemisphere in the centre of both, drilled through the centre of one hemisphere out the other side of the block of wood, clapmed the pieces togther (so that there is a sphere of wood missing inside with a hole leading to it) and poured lead down the hole. After removing the lead shpere from the wood I just sniped off the "stalk" (the lead that solidified in the filling hole).
Casting cylindrical media is easier, but probably not as efficient.
[This message has been edited by Anthony (edited March 19, 2001).]
Noct
New Member
Posts: 3
From:
Registered: MAR 2001
posted 03-19-2001 07:10 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am sorry, poor choice of words before. What I meant was, making the explosives from the chemicals that make it up. I have used matchheads, and stuff like that, but never made the explosive myself, if that makes any sense. I think I am going to go with the crapbook method and see how it goes. Thank you all for the tips, though!
Perhaps I will go with a mill as a later project.
mark
Frequent Poster
Posts: 195
From:
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 03-19-2001 07:27 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Are model rocket engines completley bp? Because their is a grey powder and a dark black powder in them. Im wondering because I just put some in my bp cannon, and it made a pussy bang. But when I left the ram rod in it, it still made a pussy bang, but it sent the ram rod fliying like a bullet until it hit a garrage.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 03-19-2001 07:53 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The grey stuff at either end of the motor (nozzle and end plug) is clay. Under the clay endplug, there is the ejection charge which is granulated BP, under this is is a pressed layer of grey delay composition. (on the motors I had, this stuff burned with a red flame) below this is that big black pressed BP fuel grain.
mark
Frequent Poster
Posts: 195
From:
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 03-19-2001 08:22 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So I shouldnt use the delay?
firebreether
Frequent Poster
Posts: 110
From:
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 03-19-2001 09:49 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What is the MP of lead? How did you melt it then pur it into a mould?
Jumala
Frequent Poster
Posts: 200
From: Germany
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 03-19-2001 10:05 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is my favorit blackpowder mfg. info.
http://www.elephantblackpowder.com/monk01.html
The other informations at the elephant site are also very interesting.
Jumala
Frequent Poster
Posts: 200
From: Germany
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 03-19-2001 10:17 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I forgot the leadballs.
It is unnesserary to make leadballs. You get them in gunshops in 20 or 50 pc. bags.
They are used for flintlock muskets and they are available up to 20mm diameter.
You can also use large chromated ballbearing balls. It isnīt dangerous because blackpower is always mixed while itīs wet. And wet BP donīt burn.
Read the monk01.html
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 03-20-2001 03:20 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Melting point of lead is about 400*C (depending if it's alloyed at all) I melted it in an old saucepan on a gas camping stove, you can do it on the kitchen cooker as if no one minds you making a bit of mess. A lid on the saucepan helps a lot and speeds up melting times. Also, when the lead is molten, turn the heat right down, (if the lead eventually starts soldifying, turn the heat up a fraction) you don't want it to hot (mine went a gold colour when over heated).
Muskett balls are good if you can get them, I can't.
I've found that wet powders don't mill well, it just cakes on the side of the milling jar. So I always mill dry, btw steel media not being so heavy may take longer to mill as the hammering effect will be less.
blackadder
Frequent Poster
Posts: 313
From: London
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 03-21-2001 04:05 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anthony, why did the Pb turn gold when it was overheated?
Sounds strange.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 03-21-2001 05:36 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't know, I just thought "that's getting too hot".
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 618
From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 03-21-2001 08:59 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
because when heated, it turns into PbO2. the added oxygen turns the once greay Pb into an orangish PbO2.
------------------
...Æ
blackadder
Frequent Poster
Posts: 313
From: London
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 03-22-2001 02:48 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, thanks Craighack.
oxyrad
New Member
Posts: 12
From: Perth,Western Australia
Registered: MAR 2001
posted 03-26-2001 05:23 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Could powdered graphite be used instead of charcoal.It is pure carbon?
------------------
YZ's are the best
firebreether
Frequent Poster
Posts: 110
From:
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 03-26-2001 03:05 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Graphite is pure carbon which wouldn't be as good as charcoal. Charcoal has slight impurities which make it burn faster.
Jumala
Frequent Poster
Posts: 200
From: Germany
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 03-26-2001 06:15 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh no, graphite donīt works for making BP.
Perhaps you get a powder from the black kind and perhaps it burns but it is no BP.
Read the monk01.html. the link is in my last reply.
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-05-2001 03:34 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Graphite is used to make the BP grain more glidy! It desensitise the powder to friction!