HNO3 based explosives

[Maniak]

Something about liquid explosives based on conc.HNO3.
Last weak I tested a mixture 95%HNO3 and picric acid as a shaped charge. It was a very powerfull detonation! cylinder with 50g yellow liquid explosive was 4cm above steel "brick" and it made penetration about 4cm....:-)
This experiment tell me that these liquid explosives are brizant as well as plastic with PETN but are more cheap and easy to make.

But really it isn't ideal explosive..... it produce toxic fumes and is relatively unstable and very corrosive:-(

Nitric acid can be mixed with:
mononitro- and dinitro- derivates of toluene,benzene,xylene,etc.,
nitromethane and other nitroalkyls,
polystyrene, PMMA (it produce plastic explosives!)
but I not test it. (This is from "Kitchen improvised plastic ex." and "Chemistry and technology of ex.-Urbanski")
what do you know about it?

PS:sorry for my bad english:-)

[metafractal]

For anyone who doesnt work in a lab nitric acid is very expensive an extremeley hard to come by. Its hardly practical in any way, shape or form. And I dont know how much I'd trust a book called "Kitchen improvised plastic ex.". Sounds like its right up there with the ol' AC. And honestly- NiTRiK aCiD + StYrOfOOm = pLaStIc XPLOSIV!! No comment. Still said, some parts of the post were vagueley informative and nitric acid does bare interesting properties as an oxidizing agent, which may open up some interesting conversation (although this very well may have been discussed previously). The only times I would ever use nitric acid for anything else but nitration (or related synthesis) would be:
a) Aqua Reiga
b) I may one day trial a practical device/weapon for creating a short, intense, blast of flame by reaction of nitric acid with highly reactive metals.

But for the time being I think nitric acid is best left in the lab :) . And, young one, I feel that your fate depends on the mood of the mods...

Edit: concicety

<small>[ December 21, 2002, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: metafractal ]</small>

[DBSP]

If you don't know what KIPE is then shut up. And I don't really know with what right you come petronising this guy just because he only one post, at least he did something, what have you done? I can't say you've contributed very much

[kingspaz]

right, enough of the bitch fighting.
Maniak, do not post any more new topics. read the rules :mad:
if you would like to compensate for breaking forum rules i'm sure everyone would be interested if you could tell us more about your experiments. how was brisance measured?
this topic will remain open because i can't remember these kind of explosives being discussed for a loooooooong time.
now, metafractal, the old saying 'don't judge a book by its cover'. KIPE is quite a reasonable book. it doesn't give pages of detailed info but does give workable improvised synthesise for many explosives. KNOW what you're talking about before you critisise otherwise you look stupid like you do now.
now enough of the fighting and on with the discussion!

[Pu239 Stuchtiger]

If KIPE is the book I'm thinking of, then there's a considerable amount of garbage in it.

[xoo1246]

Remove

<small>[ December 28, 2002, 12:09 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]</small>

[Anthony]

Useless posts removed...

Let us not judge Maniak too harshly, he has provided original and interesting information about his personal experience. Considering the trouble that some members have had with shaped charges, I may not be the only one interested to see 50gm of HE penetrate 40mm of steel - in an improvised device.

Maniak, if you have, or can get any pictures then I am sure they will be appreciated.

Metafracta, HNO3 is neither extremely expensive, nor hard to come buy. Less so than the nitromethane that many members use in explosive mixtures.

This could turn out to be a rather interesting thread, in a previously larely untouched area of discussion, so let's all be constructive :)

Also, the credibility of KIPE in general is not the subject of this thread. If it is felt to be a discussion worthy topic, then please start a new thread in the appropriate section.

[xoo1246]

Remove

<small>[ December 28, 2002, 12:09 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]</small>

[nbk2000]

While perusing the provided links, I ran across #4,274,893 "High temperature two component explosive". This consists of an oxidizer such as nitrates/perchlorates mixed with a fuel like guanidine nitrate or acetamide. They're non-explosive until melted together at several hundred C. At which point they have a DV of around 6,000M/s.

Idea came to mind of making pipe bombs filled with this melt-sensitized explosive, where a detonator is housed inside of an insulated capsule, in the middle of the pipe bomb.

These would be placed in various places of a structure targeted for arson where it'd be likely that firefighters would be present.

During the course of the fire, the powder would melt into a liquid explosive. On continued heating, the detonator contained within would "cook-off", setting off the explosive, spraying shrapnel all about. This would either take out the firefighters, or dissuade them from further efforts at restraining the fire.

The advantage of this melt-sensitized explosive is that it is non-explosive when unmelted. Even pound sized charges of C-4 are incapable of causing initation.

Thus you could transport the assembled devices with the detonators already installed with no fear of premature detonation. :)

I could also see a large metal bucket sitting on a hot plate with several detonators suspended at the top of the bucket. When the melt zone travels from the bottom up to the top the detonators would then cookoff and... :D

As for the NA/Picric explosive, we need ratios/weights. Otherwise we have no way of replicating this experimentation without much trial and error. Also, when claiming such dramatic results, especially from a newbie, pictures go a great ways to establishing validity.

KIPE is a fine book. Especially considering how it was written in the early 80's, back before we had such ready access to explosives information like we have now.

I've seen some things that looked kind of "k3wL"ish, but the majority of it was credible. I'd certainly put more faith in KIPE than any "cookbook" I found on the net. :)

[Microtek]

I have considered nitric acid mixtures with different liquid of colloidinized fuels as explosives. It was quite a while ago and was prompted by KIPE, but the corrosiveness and instability dissuaded me.
If the claim in KIPE is true then the power and brisance is close to say picric acid, but if you use HNO3 to make RDX or PETN you need about 4-6 grams of it to make one gram of explosive, making straight mixtures of nitric acid and fuel much more economical.
Still, economy is not my primary concern as I use so small amounts.

[nbk2000]

Indeed, there's an entire catagory of explosives called "Sprengel" that uses concentrated (usually fuming) NA mixed with an organic fuel like gasoline, benzene, etc. The NA+Gasoline was used in aerial bombs by the french during WW1. These bombs didn't need detonators because the resulting explosive was more impact sensitive then nitroglycerine, and would explode on impact.

A tacky gel (think napalm) results from the NA+Styrofoam. If it is powerful as described, then that'd be a hell of an explosive. It would adhere to anything you threw it on, corrode it severely (from the acid), and then destroy it with a powerful blast. :)

Problems with these type of explosives are many though. Corrosiveness, toxic fumes, inability to store it for any length of time, difficulty in fabricating charges, material incompatibilities, etc.

But these are compensated by simplicity of fabrication of the explosive. Just measure and mix. :)

[Maniak]

Thanks for your ideas.
1.)This explosive is dangerous...I think so too, but you can mix components on firing place and eliminate problems with storage...
But I mix small amount of picric acid and HNO3 (for stability test) and store it at room temperature for 10 days. It isn't problem!
2.)I think, that conc. nitric acid is base component for making explosives. I make it easy from mixture HNO3+H2SO4 by destilation.
Each of my pyro-friends can make it...
3.)I DID NOT test mixture styrofoam and HNO3, but in the future (in spring - I don't make explosives in winter:-) I will test it.
I think, that it will not PLASTIC ex.(I mustn't handling it too:-), but probably gel or high viscous explosive...
polystyren can be partly nitrated by HNO3 in this explosive...it will be really unstable...
4.)small examle: you have 50ml of nitric acid...it means you can make about 30g of PETN...it's good! OR YOU CAN MAKE 100g OF LIQUID EX. with detonation rate over 7000m/s!!! it's better, isn't it?
5.)percent ratio for mixture 95%HNO3/P.A. is about 44:56 - it is stechiometric mixture with maximum power...

HNO3 explosives is well only for quick use when you need easy, brizant ex. of course...

[DBSP]

How was the shaped charge constructed?, did you use a glass cone( to eliminat eproblems with the ecorrosive nature of HNO3).
How did you initiate the explosive? and especially what kind of material did yo use for the casing of the BC?

Had a good feeling about you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[Maniak]

I used hemisphere cooper end of charge (with diameter 21mm) and it was paint by nitrocelulose lacquer. Explosive was inicied by detonator with 0,7g high pressed RDX(dens. 1,7) and 0,2g Pb(N3)2 - it's my standart detonator.

[Maniak]

Mixture nitric and picric acid isn't first mixture which I tested. About two months ago I tried two mixtures (but not as a shaped chatges):
HNO3/dinitrotoluene 70:30
HNO3/nitromethane 40:60
these mixtures are strong similar to mixture with Picric acid. Mainly dinitrotoluene can be prepared easyer and cheaper then PA.
But I want to search the cheapest and easyest fuel for nitric acid...

[Anthony]

Below is a picture related to subject of Maniak's first post, which he emailed to me:

<img src="http://www.boomspeed.com/eawf/maniak_sc_penetration.jpg" alt=" - " />

Maniak, how sensitive was the HNO3/nitromethane mixture?

[nbk2000]

Is that a brick, or a block of wood?

Looks like it had a hole drilled into it that was filled with explosive.

[Anthony]

It's a block of cast iron. From what I can determine the dark brown root-like part is what was apparently caused by the SC jet.

[nbk2000]

OK. If it's cast iron, then it's brittle. That'd explain why a chunk broke off.

I noticed the darker area too. That'd be the liner material (copper?) welded onto the target.

[Maniak]

I fired mixture nitromethane/N.A. by my standart detonator - 0,7gRDX.

this explosive is really expensive... but it's better use of nitromethane for me (better than ANNM) because det.vel. is higher.