megalomania
May 18th, 2003, 03:47 PM
ThIoDeN
New Member
Posts: 17
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-07-2001 09:09 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
since I have little experience with explosives, made some long time ago, i want to know what the easiest, safest LE is to make.
Mr Explosi
New Member
Posts: 26
From: Germany
Registered: MAR 2001
posted 04-07-2001 10:14 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think black powder
blackadder
Frequent Poster
Posts: 313
From: London
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 04-07-2001 05:59 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What are you trying to do?
If you're trying to make a bang, then you could use
confined BP
KCLO4/Al,
KMNO4/Al,
KCLO3/Mg,
NaClO3/sugar,
KCLO3/sugar,
KNO3/abscorbic acid,
see what I'm getting at!
state specifically what your intent is, then it will be easier to help you.
[This message has been edited by blackadder (edited April 07, 2001).]
zaibatsu
Frequent Poster
Posts: 407
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-07-2001 06:36 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually blackadder, he already did. He said he wants a safe (so no permanganate/Al mixes) mixture which is easy to make (so probably not BP). I would suggest H3, that seems about as safe as BP, and easy to make.
------------------
Handguns don't kill people... Half as well as full-auto
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Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-07-2001 06:38 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Making good quality BP is an art, certianly not an easy pyro comp to make a bang.
For easy bangs I'd say, KNO3/ascorbic acid is a good suggestion, although I haven't tried it myself, it's apparently very easy to make and works well.
[This message has been edited by Anthony (edited April 07, 2001).]
zaibatsu
Frequent Poster
Posts: 407
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-07-2001 06:46 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Something I want to know is... I remember NBK mentioning a formula (KNO3 + Vit C but also with charcoal) and saying it was called something like "Sulphurless gunpowder". Now, if we look at that formula, we can see that the Vit C is taking the place of the sulphur, and so could be seen as a replacement for sulphur. So, could Vit C be used as a replacement for sulphur in a KClO3-type black powder? Food for thought..
------------------
Handguns don't kill people... Half as well as full-auto
Visit me at www.surf.to/eliteforum
J
Moderator
Posts: 602
From: United Kingdom
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-07-2001 08:18 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unfortunately, the easiest and safest rarely go together. I'd say that the various KClO3/fuel comps are by far the easiest to make. However, they are not the safest by any means, and not a great choice for a beginner (still, a lot safer than making AP I suppose).
Black powder is definitely the safest IMO, but it is difficult to make good stuff. The fastest burning BP I've ever made was using a friends rock tumbler as a ball mill. I've almost finished building my own ball mill now, you might want to check my site during the next two weeks for the results of my milling experiments.
J
------------------
"If the aquarium water has to be drunk don't waste the fish. In fact they'll probably be the easiest to eat even if you don't need the water. The cat is next in the pot." - John 'Lofty' Wiseman
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-08-2001 01:18 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The trouble with VitC is that it costs about £3 for 15gm, whereas sulphur cost £2 for a kilo or two.
Pyro
Frequent Poster
Posts: 104
From: Danbury,CT,U.S.A
Registered: MAR 2001
posted 04-08-2001 03:32 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Where is everyone getting this mentality that BP is safe to make!?!?If you have read up or made BP(i've done both) then you'd know that Bp is by far not the safest LE or safe in comparison to a KCI03 fuel mixture.By the way,the fastes BP i've made was by ball milling for a very long time(60 hours) and then pressing it with a 6 ton hydraulic press for about 15 minutes. That is just the run down of the process but if you want me to get into details i gladly will if you are serious about making BP.-Pyro
J
Moderator
Posts: 602
From: United Kingdom
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-08-2001 04:53 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blackpowder certainly isn't safe, no pyro composition is. The reason I say KClO3/Fuel comps are more dangerous than BP is because they are more friction/shock sensitive, more powerful, and there are risks of contaminants (Sulphur and Copper are two chemicals that spring to mind) making the comp unstable. What would you say is the safest LE?
J
------------------
"If the aquarium water has to be drunk don't waste the fish. In fact they'll probably be the easiest to eat even if you don't need the water. The cat is next in the pot." - John 'Lofty' Wiseman
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-08-2001 06:20 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BP is safe! It's very insensitive to impact, friction, electrical discharge and doesn't ignite for a good few hundred degrees C. The only risk is with chlorate contaminants which aren't hard to avoid.
nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1096
From: Guess
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-08-2001 06:38 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
VitC propellant doesn't have any charcoal in it. Read my PDF file for the exact details and formulations.
------------------
"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"
Go here to download the NBK2000 website PDF.
Go here to download the NBK2000 videos.
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 04-08-2001 07:22 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you reffering to this:
Ammonpulver
A powder which contained no sulfur an was made from 40 to 45 per cent potassium nitrate, 35 to 38 per cent ammonium nitrate, and 14 to 22 per cent charcoal.
Improved Amidpulve
Made from potassium nitrate 14 per cent, ammonium nitrate 37 per cent, and charcoal 49 per cent, gives a flashless discharge when fired in a gun and only a moderate amount of smoke.
------------------
technology is a wonderful servant, but a bitch of a master.
Explosives Archive
boo-radley
New Member
Posts: 7
From: wodonga, victoria, australia
Registered: APR 2001
posted 04-08-2001 07:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A low explosive could be made from melting wax and mixing that with petrolium and grinded KNO3 it has a shelf life of about half a year and it is very safe and not an extremly high burn rate. But the only problem is you need a blasting cap to set it off. But if you hae another way of setting it off you are quiet welcome to try.
Pyro
Frequent Poster
Posts: 104
From: Danbury,CT,U.S.A
Registered: MAR 2001
posted 04-08-2001 09:13 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, I think the safest LE is probably KNO3/sugar because even though it will spew nasty liquid and smoke all over the place if you do it wrong, it most likely will not harm you(when was the last time you heard of KNO3/sugar being used for other things than a smoke comp. or rocket fuel?). What boo suggested sounds extremely safe to me, the wax would slow down the already slow burn rate of the KNO3 and if it's true that you need a D. cap to make it go boom it must be hard to detonate/ignite anyway. By the way Anthony, you are right that BP is quite shock/friction insensitive but in the process of making BP you have many pains-takingly hazardis steps(one that jumps out at me is corning). Once again, if you've made it,you'd know how scary it is to corn a half pound cake of BP with a baseball bat and pan.-Pyro
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 04-08-2001 09:54 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you need a blasting cap to set off an explosive, that usually means its a HE. kno3 doenst detonate so i think that information is BS.
------------------
technology is a wonderful servant, but a bitch of a master.
Explosives Archive
BoB-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 679
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-09-2001 10:22 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You dont have to melt Kno3 and Sugar, it will still work powdered, and melting it increases the risk of an accidental initiation (Right Darkangel )
Pretty sure the ignition temperature increases when its powdered though.
[This message has been edited by BoB- (edited April 09, 2001).]
blackadder
Frequent Poster
Posts: 313
From: London
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 04-09-2001 11:15 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And when you melt it, there is a more of an intimate mix between the two chemicals. (Anthony said that in one of his previous posts)
Pyro
Frequent Poster
Posts: 104
From: Danbury,CT,U.S.A
Registered: MAR 2001
posted 04-09-2001 02:34 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have to agree with ALEN on this one, i think that info is BS. Notice in my earlier post how i said "if that info is true".-Pyro
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-09-2001 02:57 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I never made more than an attempt to corn my BP as it worked well enough as a meal powder. Although I'm sure grinding a half pound cake can be nerve racking, it's all physcological as there's no way it could ignite (by the grinding action).
I agree that KNO3/vaseline/wax info sounds like BS the burn rate would be pathetic and too slow for anything but slow smoke. Although it could be ignited with some KNO3/sugar A blasting cap certainly wouldn't ignite it, just scatter it everywhere.
Pyro
Frequent Poster
Posts: 104
From: Danbury,CT,U.S.A
Registered: MAR 2001
posted 04-09-2001 05:44 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anthony-There are things that could ignite the cake. For one, i know any pyro worth there salt would know not to grind up a cake of BP indoors which means it would pick of moisture from the air, which is not a good thing. Also, if you were stupid using an aluminum/any metal type of bat or pot the friction caused by whaling on the it could ignite the cake. Another thing, since sulfur's property's lend themselves to static shock, if you were wearing anything like fleece or conductive shoes it could ignite from that static. BP is not as safe as it would be percieved. Although most of the above could be avoided it is STILL dangerous.-Pyro
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-09-2001 07:00 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course BP can be dangerous, any explosive is dangerous it's just how dangerous it is.
Grinding the cake indoors is better than doing it outside in the rain...
I've discharge a 100 000 volt stungun through a pile of BP and it did didly squat. It's take a pretty serious static discharge to ignite it.
I think aluminium on wood isn't going to create anywhere near the amount of friction required to ignite the BP. Although the KNO3 could react with the Al pot causing the mixture to become dangerous alhtough this would be very unlikely.
I realise that BP can be dangerous, but I maintain that it is one fo the safest LE around.
New Member
Posts: 17
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-07-2001 09:09 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
since I have little experience with explosives, made some long time ago, i want to know what the easiest, safest LE is to make.
Mr Explosi
New Member
Posts: 26
From: Germany
Registered: MAR 2001
posted 04-07-2001 10:14 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think black powder
blackadder
Frequent Poster
Posts: 313
From: London
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 04-07-2001 05:59 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What are you trying to do?
If you're trying to make a bang, then you could use
confined BP
KCLO4/Al,
KMNO4/Al,
KCLO3/Mg,
NaClO3/sugar,
KCLO3/sugar,
KNO3/abscorbic acid,
see what I'm getting at!
state specifically what your intent is, then it will be easier to help you.
[This message has been edited by blackadder (edited April 07, 2001).]
zaibatsu
Frequent Poster
Posts: 407
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-07-2001 06:36 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually blackadder, he already did. He said he wants a safe (so no permanganate/Al mixes) mixture which is easy to make (so probably not BP). I would suggest H3, that seems about as safe as BP, and easy to make.
------------------
Handguns don't kill people... Half as well as full-auto
Visit me at www.surf.to/eliteforum
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-07-2001 06:38 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Making good quality BP is an art, certianly not an easy pyro comp to make a bang.
For easy bangs I'd say, KNO3/ascorbic acid is a good suggestion, although I haven't tried it myself, it's apparently very easy to make and works well.
[This message has been edited by Anthony (edited April 07, 2001).]
zaibatsu
Frequent Poster
Posts: 407
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-07-2001 06:46 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Something I want to know is... I remember NBK mentioning a formula (KNO3 + Vit C but also with charcoal) and saying it was called something like "Sulphurless gunpowder". Now, if we look at that formula, we can see that the Vit C is taking the place of the sulphur, and so could be seen as a replacement for sulphur. So, could Vit C be used as a replacement for sulphur in a KClO3-type black powder? Food for thought..
------------------
Handguns don't kill people... Half as well as full-auto
Visit me at www.surf.to/eliteforum
J
Moderator
Posts: 602
From: United Kingdom
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-07-2001 08:18 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unfortunately, the easiest and safest rarely go together. I'd say that the various KClO3/fuel comps are by far the easiest to make. However, they are not the safest by any means, and not a great choice for a beginner (still, a lot safer than making AP I suppose).
Black powder is definitely the safest IMO, but it is difficult to make good stuff. The fastest burning BP I've ever made was using a friends rock tumbler as a ball mill. I've almost finished building my own ball mill now, you might want to check my site during the next two weeks for the results of my milling experiments.
J
------------------
"If the aquarium water has to be drunk don't waste the fish. In fact they'll probably be the easiest to eat even if you don't need the water. The cat is next in the pot." - John 'Lofty' Wiseman
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-08-2001 01:18 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The trouble with VitC is that it costs about £3 for 15gm, whereas sulphur cost £2 for a kilo or two.
Pyro
Frequent Poster
Posts: 104
From: Danbury,CT,U.S.A
Registered: MAR 2001
posted 04-08-2001 03:32 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Where is everyone getting this mentality that BP is safe to make!?!?If you have read up or made BP(i've done both) then you'd know that Bp is by far not the safest LE or safe in comparison to a KCI03 fuel mixture.By the way,the fastes BP i've made was by ball milling for a very long time(60 hours) and then pressing it with a 6 ton hydraulic press for about 15 minutes. That is just the run down of the process but if you want me to get into details i gladly will if you are serious about making BP.-Pyro
J
Moderator
Posts: 602
From: United Kingdom
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-08-2001 04:53 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blackpowder certainly isn't safe, no pyro composition is. The reason I say KClO3/Fuel comps are more dangerous than BP is because they are more friction/shock sensitive, more powerful, and there are risks of contaminants (Sulphur and Copper are two chemicals that spring to mind) making the comp unstable. What would you say is the safest LE?
J
------------------
"If the aquarium water has to be drunk don't waste the fish. In fact they'll probably be the easiest to eat even if you don't need the water. The cat is next in the pot." - John 'Lofty' Wiseman
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-08-2001 06:20 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BP is safe! It's very insensitive to impact, friction, electrical discharge and doesn't ignite for a good few hundred degrees C. The only risk is with chlorate contaminants which aren't hard to avoid.
nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1096
From: Guess
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-08-2001 06:38 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
VitC propellant doesn't have any charcoal in it. Read my PDF file for the exact details and formulations.
------------------
"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"
Go here to download the NBK2000 website PDF.
Go here to download the NBK2000 videos.
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 04-08-2001 07:22 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you reffering to this:
Ammonpulver
A powder which contained no sulfur an was made from 40 to 45 per cent potassium nitrate, 35 to 38 per cent ammonium nitrate, and 14 to 22 per cent charcoal.
Improved Amidpulve
Made from potassium nitrate 14 per cent, ammonium nitrate 37 per cent, and charcoal 49 per cent, gives a flashless discharge when fired in a gun and only a moderate amount of smoke.
------------------
technology is a wonderful servant, but a bitch of a master.
Explosives Archive
boo-radley
New Member
Posts: 7
From: wodonga, victoria, australia
Registered: APR 2001
posted 04-08-2001 07:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A low explosive could be made from melting wax and mixing that with petrolium and grinded KNO3 it has a shelf life of about half a year and it is very safe and not an extremly high burn rate. But the only problem is you need a blasting cap to set it off. But if you hae another way of setting it off you are quiet welcome to try.
Pyro
Frequent Poster
Posts: 104
From: Danbury,CT,U.S.A
Registered: MAR 2001
posted 04-08-2001 09:13 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, I think the safest LE is probably KNO3/sugar because even though it will spew nasty liquid and smoke all over the place if you do it wrong, it most likely will not harm you(when was the last time you heard of KNO3/sugar being used for other things than a smoke comp. or rocket fuel?). What boo suggested sounds extremely safe to me, the wax would slow down the already slow burn rate of the KNO3 and if it's true that you need a D. cap to make it go boom it must be hard to detonate/ignite anyway. By the way Anthony, you are right that BP is quite shock/friction insensitive but in the process of making BP you have many pains-takingly hazardis steps(one that jumps out at me is corning). Once again, if you've made it,you'd know how scary it is to corn a half pound cake of BP with a baseball bat and pan.-Pyro
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 04-08-2001 09:54 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you need a blasting cap to set off an explosive, that usually means its a HE. kno3 doenst detonate so i think that information is BS.
------------------
technology is a wonderful servant, but a bitch of a master.
Explosives Archive
BoB-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 679
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-09-2001 10:22 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You dont have to melt Kno3 and Sugar, it will still work powdered, and melting it increases the risk of an accidental initiation (Right Darkangel )
Pretty sure the ignition temperature increases when its powdered though.
[This message has been edited by BoB- (edited April 09, 2001).]
blackadder
Frequent Poster
Posts: 313
From: London
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 04-09-2001 11:15 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And when you melt it, there is a more of an intimate mix between the two chemicals. (Anthony said that in one of his previous posts)
Pyro
Frequent Poster
Posts: 104
From: Danbury,CT,U.S.A
Registered: MAR 2001
posted 04-09-2001 02:34 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have to agree with ALEN on this one, i think that info is BS. Notice in my earlier post how i said "if that info is true".-Pyro
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-09-2001 02:57 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I never made more than an attempt to corn my BP as it worked well enough as a meal powder. Although I'm sure grinding a half pound cake can be nerve racking, it's all physcological as there's no way it could ignite (by the grinding action).
I agree that KNO3/vaseline/wax info sounds like BS the burn rate would be pathetic and too slow for anything but slow smoke. Although it could be ignited with some KNO3/sugar A blasting cap certainly wouldn't ignite it, just scatter it everywhere.
Pyro
Frequent Poster
Posts: 104
From: Danbury,CT,U.S.A
Registered: MAR 2001
posted 04-09-2001 05:44 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anthony-There are things that could ignite the cake. For one, i know any pyro worth there salt would know not to grind up a cake of BP indoors which means it would pick of moisture from the air, which is not a good thing. Also, if you were stupid using an aluminum/any metal type of bat or pot the friction caused by whaling on the it could ignite the cake. Another thing, since sulfur's property's lend themselves to static shock, if you were wearing anything like fleece or conductive shoes it could ignite from that static. BP is not as safe as it would be percieved. Although most of the above could be avoided it is STILL dangerous.-Pyro
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-09-2001 07:00 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course BP can be dangerous, any explosive is dangerous it's just how dangerous it is.
Grinding the cake indoors is better than doing it outside in the rain...
I've discharge a 100 000 volt stungun through a pile of BP and it did didly squat. It's take a pretty serious static discharge to ignite it.
I think aluminium on wood isn't going to create anywhere near the amount of friction required to ignite the BP. Although the KNO3 could react with the Al pot causing the mixture to become dangerous alhtough this would be very unlikely.
I realise that BP can be dangerous, but I maintain that it is one fo the safest LE around.