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View Full Version : Potassium Nitrate NitroMethane Tests


Anthony
April 22nd, 2002, 04:54 PM
Sorry, but you're going to have to copy and paste the picture links into your browser.

TEST 1

Drilled a 3/4" diameter hole into a tree 5.5" deep:

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/pnnm1.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/pnnm1.jpg</a>

Explosive was 100gm undried KNO3 fertilizer, 30% NM was added in a plastic bag and allowed to absorb for at least an hour. I couldn't get the bag into the hole, so I removed the explosive, poked it in with my finger and plastered over the hole entrance:

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/pnnm2.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/pnnm2.jpg</a>

There was about 15-20gm of explosive leftover in the bag so I inserted the blasting cap (1gm PETN 0.5gm HMTD) into the explosive, wrapped the bag around itself and taped the ball over the hole entrace as a kind of booster:

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/pnnm3.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/pnnm3.jpg</a>

Result: A small explosion which I believe was just the blasting cap detonating. The tape was missing, there was some damage to the tree bark around hole entrance and the explosive was clearly visible about 1/2" inside the hole.

TEST 2

I figured that the explosive stuffed into the hole had become too packed to detonate from the small cap. So this time I put the oven-dried KNO3 and 25% NM (yes, less this time) into a plastic tube. I forget exactly how much KNO3 I put into the tube, but it's not really important. Seeing as how kinepak has a dye added to the NM so that you can cleary see when it has soaked into the NH4NO3, I added some green food colouring to the NM for this charge. I poured the green NM into the tube and allowed it to soak for an hour, with agitation (walking with it in my pocket):

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/pnnm4.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/pnnm4.jpg</a>

The KNO3 did a great job of filtering out the food colouring (it didn't mix that well with the NM), so although the NM did soak to the bottom of the tube, you can't see it in the photo. The KNO3 also did not absorb all of the NM, I had to pour away the excess, bringing the NM content of the explosive to <20%:

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/pnnm5.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/pnnm5.jpg</a>

Also visible is the blasting cap which is 0.75-1gm HMTD which has been inserted into the booster, which is a cut down 12gm CO2 capsule containing around 5gm PETN. I used to the capsule as it fitted perfectly into the clear tube.

The hole in the tree was cleared out and charge inserted:

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/pnnm6.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/pnnm6.jpg</a>

Result: A considerably louder explosion this time, but almost exactly the same results, undetonated explosive visible just 3/4" into the hole.

I have detonated a 100gm/30gm KNO3/NM mix loose in a plastic bag before using a 1gm PETN, 1gm HMTD cap, so I suspect that it having a critcal diameter of greater than 3/4" is the culprit here. Or does anyone have other ideas?

Coments/suggestions welcome:)

BTW, I did have "after" pictures, but they have mysterious disappeared, I think my camera is playing silly-buggers. They weren't at all impressive though - just a bit of blown away tree bark.

Project IGI
April 22nd, 2002, 06:53 PM
Nice job, are these the still's from a video? If so is it possible that we (I) can see the video?

Chris Shiherlis
May 20th, 2002, 09:48 AM
I can't get the pictures. But I have some remarks anyway :) . You don't need to soak the KNO3 in NM and certainly not for an hour. The only thing to do is to grind the KNO3.
And failure MIGHT be caused by needing to exceed a critical diameter. But it seems not very likely to me. The diameter of a charge is mostly only critical for ANFO type explosives.
It's more likely that this mixture is just a bit insensitive compaired to other NM mixtures. So with small charges the construction gets very important: you need to ensure that the detonator is positioned right so all the energy of the detonator is transmitted to the explosive: in the centre and in such a way that the explosive touches the detonator on all sides. In other words: it must fit like a glove. And with small charges and using plastic bags that tends to get a bit difficult (or a bit sloppy).
And you need a detonator that has a small inner diameter so it sticks deep enough in the mixture and there is enough explosive around the detonator (with a 3/4" diameter charge I wouldn't recommend a 1/2" detonator).

By the way, did you already test the brisance of that "new explosive": the NM/KClO3 mixture?

DBSP
May 20th, 2002, 02:50 PM
Chris it need to soak some time so that the NM is dispersed throughout the whole charge. You can't simply pour the NM in and then detonate it, if you let it soak for an hour you can be shure that the NM has penetrated the whole charge. Allowing the NM to soak for a period of time is more important when using small diameter pipes and such since it takes longer time for the liquid to reach the bottom of the container.

Anthony
May 20th, 2002, 07:41 PM
To get the pictures you need to copy and paste the links into your browser.

The KNO3 was a powder straight out of the bag. I allowed the NM to soak in for an hour because this is simply the length of time which expired between when the NM was added and when I was ready to detonate the charge. I'm sure how of this time would still have allowed complete dispersal of the NM throughtout the KNO3. I realise that the detonator wasn't ideally placed but it's you haven't got a lot of room in 3/4", besides 5gm of PETN should have made up for unideal priming.

I'd forgotten to get some more NH4NO3 to compare the brisance/VoD of the NaClO3/NM, I'll have to put an order in soon. One thing is for sure, as soon as I get some NH4NO3 that defiant tree is going bye-bye :p

photonic
May 20th, 2002, 10:23 PM
Hey, if you live in the states, where do you get your kno3? I tried a rather well stocked garden shop down the street and also a feed/farm store. The garden people had no idea what it was and the feed people tried to sell me injectable potassium for horses. Any ideas where I can get it?

ALENGOSVIG1
May 20th, 2002, 10:33 PM
photonic: He's not from the states and this has been discussed many times before. Search before you post! :mad:

Asking for potassium nitrate wont get you anywhere. Try asking for 13-0-46 fertilizer. If you dont have any luck at garden/agricultural places try a hydroponics store. Thats where i get mine.

<small>[ May 20, 2002, 09:34 PM: Message edited by: ALENGOSVIG1 ]</small>

photonic
May 20th, 2002, 10:56 PM
My apologies. I did search prior to posting and what I found is that it's sold at garden shops and agricultural stores sometimes under the name nitrate of potash or saltpetre. But then on the internet I found several different things sold under the name salt peter. I tried both shops and neither had it so I asked here. I will do more extensive research in the future.

DBSP
May 21st, 2002, 04:29 AM
Anthony be shure to get pics of the exicution of the tree. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

inferno
May 21st, 2002, 07:47 AM
Photonic - if you cant find it in stores, try either ringing up a few chemists and asking for saltpetre and potassium nitrate, ring a few and ask if they can order it in, or, order it from these sites:

<a href="http://www.skylighter.com" target="_blank">http://www.skylighter.com</a> - hundreds of pyrotechnics chemicals
<a href="http://www.firefox-fx.com" target="_blank">http://www.firefox-fx.com</a> - sell the same as above

At firefox, KNO3 will cost you $3.60 per pound, with a minimum order, excluding postage and handling, of $15. Theres plenty of other chemicals you can buy too.
If you cant order online for whatever reason, try asking for SQM fertiliser products, some info is at their site <a href="http://www.sqm.com" target="_blank">http://www.sqm.com</a> .

<small>[ May 21, 2002, 07:05 AM: Message edited by: inferno ]</small>

Anthony
May 24th, 2002, 03:55 PM
Didn't have too much to do and needed to blow off some steam so decided to have another go at that tree. 200gm KNO3/57gm NM with a 3gm HMTD cap.

Cap and charge:
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/pnnm21.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/pnnm21.jpg</a>

Close-up of cap
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/pnnm22.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/pnnm22.jpg</a>

Primed charge in plastic pot
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/pnnm23.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/pnnm23.jpg</a>

Addition of a sacrifice - LineOne CD (sadly no AOL ones available :( )
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/pnnm24.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/pnnm24.jpg</a>

The result
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/pnnm25.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/pnnm25.jpg</a>

I don't doubt that the detonation was complete. I didn't expect to obliterate the tree with a small and badly placed charge, but that tree is triple 'ard! The charge was placed over over the drill hole used for the previous charges, which is now completely empty of the undetonated explosive.

While I was in the near(ish) vicinity, I got a pic of the results of an earlier 1200gm ANNM charge:

Charge in place:
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/1200gm_ANNM1.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/1200gm_ANNM1.jpg</a>

Result:
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/1200gm_ANNM2.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/1200gm_ANNM2.jpg</a>

Rather unimpresive, no? This wall is two courses of concrete stone effect block, attached to a concrete base and wire reinforced. The exit hole on the other side of the wall was about 3ft across and the entire wall was covered in huge cracks, with some sections pushed out of line with others. A couple of pushes gives:

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/1200gmANNM_wall.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/1200gmANNM_wall.jpg</a>

xoo1246
May 24th, 2002, 04:40 PM
Great work!, I hope that house wasn't populated. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">A couple of pushes gives:</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">He,He.
That is a massive charge, 1200 grams could be heard from quite a distance. Although I had expected it to do a larger hole. How close was the charge to the wall?
On what side was that charge placed? Was the other wall damaged too?

DBSP
May 24th, 2002, 04:52 PM
Very nice :) , I must say that I'm supprised to see the damage of the PNNM charge, I had expected something much less.

Anthony
May 24th, 2002, 06:38 PM
The charge was in direct contact with the wall, the last picture is taken from the opposite side (the exit side) of the wall as the first two. The blast was heard over the sound of display ariel shells (this was Nov 5th :) ) from friends in several directions for quite a few miles :D

BTW the building is part of an abandoned motel, I got a couple of emergency lighting units while I was there too :)

cutefix
May 30th, 2002, 09:48 PM
This KNO3/NM tests reminds me of Jerry Hurst pioneering experiments at the Explosive Corporations of America in the 1960's.
He used one part nitromethane and 2 parts with Chile saltpeter(NaNO3).

Anthony
May 31st, 2002, 11:43 AM
I've got a box of NaNO3 with no use, I'll make up some more HMTD and give it a go.

cutefix
May 31st, 2002, 10:36 PM
Dr Hurst succesfully detonated it with a standard blasting cap.Then it contain some booster explosive(such as PETN) as well.
he did the same with KNO3 with the same ratio .

McCoy
June 20th, 2002, 03:36 PM
Hello there guys, nice idea to use other nitrates instead of the famous ammoniumnitrate. Because it is hygroscopic and overhere (Europe) not sold in pure prill form so it has to be purified out of some fertilizer. So other nitrates might be a better option. Why I didn't think of it myself beats me too.
I think KNO3 is very interesting. So I tried to find those patents at the USPTO. I found (probably) the patentnumbers concerned (3,718,512 and 3,926,119) but since they are old they only exist in 'image view'. And you need some program (Quicktime) to download it. Anyhow to make a long story short: it didn't succeed so I don't know what that famous Hurst guy found out.
I guess he tried all those different nitrate/NM mixtures and reported all the data like VoD, sensitivity, density and power.
So my question is could someone get those patents up here to the Forum or tell me what is in it (the VoD/sensitivity/density of the KNO3/NM mixture to start with)? Thanks a lot. If there's anything I can do for you.....

<small>[ June 20, 2002, 02:44 PM: Message edited by: McCoy ]</small>

cutefix
June 20th, 2002, 11:25 PM
I used to have very old copy(almost torn) of that patent but unfortunately lost during my relocation to my new home.
I looked into my old notebook for some little details written about that particular experiment referrence(Patent #3718512)and I think he was using nitrates ,it was either of these salts. NaNO3,KNO3&NH4NO3 ground to a fine powder even with mortar and pestle.It was detonated with a number 6 blasting cap.The salts must be completely dry and should be of fine powder.You should not pack the resulting mixture very hard, or you will desensitize it,resulting in detonation failure.
I remember we did similar experiments in the lab several years ago and was successful in setting it off.,every time with a number 8 cap.We were successful also with number 6,but my former colleagues think,it was practical to use a larger cap specially in field trials with larger charges to prevent misfires.In some they even use boosters in order to maximize explosive performance.Therefore I'm sure that alkali nitrates can be used to replace ammonium nitrate.

Maybe you missed a lot of the details;why don’t you print that particular file and study it.I am not familiar about quicktime,so I do not know if its a print capable software.
BTW, several months ago in one of my post ,NBK suggested to use an image reading software for patent files.I think that particular freeware is print capable.I tested it previously in my old computer(now discarded) and it was very satisfactory.
IIRC,it was from alternatiff.com

zaibatsu
June 21st, 2002, 03:21 PM
Alternatiff is a very good program, I currently use it to view patents, and it allows you to dave and print the patent images.

McCoy
June 22nd, 2002, 10:44 AM
OK thanks for the replies. I used the patent database myself a lot in the past and had no problems viewing and printing the patents with Quicktime. But only last time when I tried to find the patents of Jerry Hurst it failed. So I will try again. But Zaibatsu, maybe just in case it fails again, you can tell me if there is any data in it about the VoD, power (and ratio) of this KNO3/NM mixture as compaired to the standard NH4NO3/NM mixture. And if so, could you tell what it is? Or maybe even better, load the whole patent up into this topic (I'm a lazy bastard I know :) ).
I guess the VoD will not differ dramatically from AN/NM. But I need to know for sure because it must exceed 6000 m/s for shaped charge purposes. Then the next problem is finding KNO3.

<small>[ June 22, 2002, 09:50 AM: Message edited by: McCoy ]</small>

zaibatsu
June 22nd, 2002, 12:28 PM
No problem McCoy, although you should really do it yourself, I'll help you this time :) (Plus I have nothing to do at the moment)

Pat. 3,718,512 states that the nitrate should be smaller than 500um, preferably between 250-50um. It says that nitromethane and Dinitrotoulene are the best liquids to use, in proportions between 12% and 35%, and it says to produce a low density nitrate to soak it in about 1% of water, and then let it dry.
Heres an example from the patent:

Example 3: Potassium nitrate crystals are ground by hand with a mortar and pestle to a fine powder of average particle size of 100um. 20g of this is lightly tamped into an aluminium tube of dimensions 2.5"x3/8"x1". 10g of nitromethane is added to the tube without agitation and a metal plate affixed to one side. when fired with a no.6 cap it produced a loud report and a dent in the steel of 0.082".

The other patent states that between .1% and 50% by weight of glas microballoons should be added to sensitize the mix, preferably between 0.8-25%.

cutefix
June 23rd, 2002, 05:35 AM
From my past observation in the field ,I remember, that alkali metal nitrates in mixtures with nitromethane becomes easily dead pressed if compared to NM/AN binaries.
There are many instancies during field trials ;a charge made with NM/alkalimetal nitrates left in the borehole long enough does not even detonate even if set off with a booster.It means that adsorption is not as good as with using ammonium nitrate and there is a tendency for the NM to separate on standing(through settling /or maybe evaporation?).
The effect is that a charge that was left too long enough before detonating becomes desensitized .A similar charges made with ammonium nitrate and nitromethane has more tolerance to this delay.
I also observed more misfires with alkali metal nitrates and NM than with ANNM in field trials specially if using smaller caps.
Regarding brisance,in small charges, dent test may show similarities with AN oxidized NM in lab scale trials.As applied to the field, but in larger charges I remember, that the width of the hole looks slightly wider with the ANNM than with KNO3/NM or NaNO3/NM.
If used to break a boulder, I noticed that ANNM gives slightly smaller size stone fragments than a similar sized rock blasted with equivalent quantity of NaNO3/NM or KNO3/NM.
Therefore it implies that its detonation velocity with metal nitrates composition is slightly lesser than ammonium nitrate composites.

Therefore I reckon from my field observation that,its not better as a candidate for practical shaped charge application.
A rough estimate of the detonation velocity for KN/NM or SN/NM is 5000-5500 meters per second;as compared to ANNM that can reach even beyond 6000 meters pers second if optimally initiated.

McCoy
June 23rd, 2002, 01:08 PM
Ok, very much appreciated. Thanks.
I finally succeeded in installing Quicktime (fuckin' computers! :) ). And I read the patent just quickly (printing it is another fuckin' problem) but it is a bit disappointing. I hoped to find some data on VoD of the different mixtures but Mr. Hurst doesn't present them.
And the data of the dent tests is just an indication of the overall power of the different explosives I think. So although the KNO3/NM mixture produces a slightly larger dent than the AN/NM mixture is doesn't say anything about the VoD (but on the other hand those mixtures are almost chemically the same and contain about as much energy. So in that case the dent produced in a steel plate does say something about the VoD I think).
But according to the observations of Cutefix the VoD of the KNO3/NM mixture is lower and so it seems not to be a good substitute for AN/NM as far as shaped charges are concerned.

There was however some other interesting thing mentioned in this patent: Hurst used about a 100 gram of AN/NM in an aluminium cillinder immersed in 1500 gram of unsensitized NM in a open container to detonate the liquid NM. Talking about a loud report! :)
I tried this once myself: I put about 120 gram of an NM explosive to the side of a plastic container containing 1 ltr of unsensitized NM. But the charge didn't set it off. Probably because it should have been inside the NM or the NM explosive was not as powerfull as AN/NM. But it was very old liquid NM anyway.

<small>[ June 23, 2002, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: McCoy ]</small>

Anthony
July 24th, 2002, 02:36 PM
Today I gave SNNM a try and had another go at that damn tree...

Please copy and paste or drag and drop the urls to your browser.

The charge:

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/snnm2.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/snnm2.jpg</a>

100gm sodium nitrate, 25gm nirtomethane, 3gm HMTD cap

I increased the size of the hole in the tree, giving a rough, 2" square and about 4" deep hole:

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/snnm1.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/snnm1.jpg</a>

Primed charge in place:

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/snnm3.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/snnm3.jpg</a>

Result!

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/snnm4.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/snnm4.jpg</a>

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/snnm5.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/snnm5.jpg</a>

It blew a hole right through the tree, if you look carefully, you can see stuff through the hole. The thing is hanging in there by a thread, another small charge or stiff breeze should push it over :D

I was quite impressed considering that this was only about 1/4lb of explosive.

<small>[ September 15, 2002, 05:47 PM: Message edited by: Anthony ]</small>

kingspaz
July 25th, 2002, 06:49 AM
well done anthony! you showed that tree <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

edit: did that charge do more damage than the larger KNO3/NM charge?!
also NaNO3 has more oxygen gram for gram so may be better suited explosive mixtures.

<small>[ July 25, 2002, 05:52 AM: Message edited by: kingspaz ]</small>

nbk2000
July 25th, 2002, 08:54 AM
Did you seal the hole with mud or clay after emplacing the charge? If not, then a lot of the force went out the hole instead of completely blowing the tree apart. Always tamp charges for best results.

Anthony
July 25th, 2002, 08:35 PM
In comparison, the larger charge only scratched the surface, it's surprising how much difference a bit of confinement makes!

I didn't tamp the charge, it didn't seem worth the effort considering that I would have gotten less than half the weight of the charge in tamping material in the remaining space in the tree.

Helos
September 14th, 2002, 04:33 PM
This is interresting, I didnt expect this to be that good.
However I think that adding Al to the mix will be a good thing to do.
It can be good to add Al to ANNM, but here I think it will do a much greater effect, because this mix really has alot of + oxygen, it will improve alot if that oxygen burns Al instead of just go away?
What fo you think, will 80um Al do the work?
It is just to calculate how much, A gueas are, 100gNaNo3, 15gAl and 25g NM!

carbonated
September 14th, 2002, 07:54 PM
Well I asked this at the other nitrate explosives thread, but what was the purity of the nitromethane in the fuel in the SNNM charge? 30%? I am just wondering as well if AN will work better with 30% NM, or if NaNO3 will. Maybe a mixture for the extra oxygen NaNO3 brings?

johny_bmb
September 15th, 2002, 05:25 AM
I dont see the point in making the KNO3/NM mixture and testing it when there already is the ANNM , tested and experimented with. The KNO3/NM mixture will probably never detonate as the KNO3 is a lot more stable than the NH4NO3

xoo1246
September 15th, 2002, 05:35 AM
Well, if only liked to detonate explosives and cared less about what the explosive was we could stick with one type, such as ANNM. However we like to learn new things, find easy to get substitutes etc.

<small>[ September 15, 2002, 04:35 AM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]</small>

Fl4PP4W0k
September 15th, 2002, 12:44 PM
Johny, Didn't Anthonys posts show Na\KNO3 detonating?

If it did or didnt, doesn't matter. I agree with xoo, The Forum is about experimentation and research into different\alternative explosives.
Tried and true methods\explosives do have their place, although continuous experimentation to find new, improved, simpler, safer and obtainable explosives should be encouraged.

Good work Anthony, I'll be grabbing a litre of 100% NM from the local RC store and give PNNM(?) a whirl.
For a 150g Loosely packed charge (a food tin), Im planning on using a 10g AP detonater. This should be sufficient, yes?

l8r,
rob

kingspaz
September 15th, 2002, 05:39 PM
johny_bmb, fuel/oxidiser mixtures that normaly deflagrate can be detonated with a cap in a similar way to nitrocellulose, although for different reasons. the main problem usually being the size of cap required.

Anthony
September 15th, 2002, 06:35 PM
All tests were done with "pure" nitromethane, I don't know the exact purity, but probably close to 100%.

I cannot say for sure that the NaNO3/KNO3 detonated, but I have never observed *any* residue from the tests I have done. The nitrates may be relatively insensitive, but the kick from detonating NM is quite a sharp one.

The addition of Al is a good suggestion, 15% sounds reasonable. Although it may lower the VoD, but it would raise the heat of explosion, so I'm not sure what the net effect on the explosive's performance would be. Possibly lower brisance, but more heaving power?

Good luck Fl4PP4W0k. 10gm of AP will more more than enough, 2gm will do the job, but if you want to be sure then it's your decision.

I've replaced the pictures with links in the SNNM post as boomspeed seems to have gone offline permanently.

I do have a question of my own, seeing as the wise are already thinking ahead to Nov 5th, I am doing likewise. I would like to do a large charge, on the order of 10kg. NH4NO3 is only availble to me via mail order, but I can get NaNO3 locally, so it would be my preference to use. I would like to use diesel, or some other easily available and cheap fuel.

So the summary is about 10kg of SNFO with a food can sized booster of ANNM. I have two questions, firstly, is there something that I haven't seen which would make this unlikely to work? Secondly, given the greater oxygen content of NaNO3, would it be wise to use a greater amount of FO, or would this reduce sensitivity and so should stick with the proven 4.5% as with ANFO?

<small>[ September 15, 2002, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: Anthony ]</small>

ShockWave
October 14th, 2002, 04:15 PM
Today I finally found a good source for the Kno3, 15euro for 25kg, euro is the same a usa $.

I searched alot but nobody is telling here something about detonating just straight Kno3, Long time ago I heard someone saying that It can be detonated if you mix it with charcoal, since the Kno3 is so very cheap I want to make charges from about 25kg, but if I have to mix it with NM it will be very expensive I pay 22euro for 1Litre.

500gr. ANNM/AL as detonater won't do anything in a bag of only Kno3, or does it !?

kingspaz
October 14th, 2002, 05:27 PM
KNO3 cannot be detonated straight. if it could don't you think people would do it other than mix nitromethane with it? if you realistically want to detonate KNO3 then you must use nitromethane. the KNO3 sensitises the nitromethane to detonation so you end up with a kind of nitromethane dynamite, the main detonation resulting from detonation of the nitromethane not the KNO3.

ShockWave
October 14th, 2002, 07:15 PM
I allready thought the same but I was hoping for something else ofcourse.

And with that charcoal? nobody heard of it? and no, I don't mean BP :rolleyes:

kingspaz
October 15th, 2002, 05:36 PM
well, if you ballmilled it extremely fine and put it under very strong confinement and used a VERY powerful cap then i don't see why it wouldn't work. but not very reliably.

ShockWave
October 15th, 2002, 05:38 PM
you mean WITH charcoal !? or even without it ?

kingspaz
October 15th, 2002, 07:00 PM
sorry, with charcoal or any fuel for that matter....
MNN might be a good idea. it sensitises chlorates well. but again you'd have to have the KNO3 VERY finely milled and need a big booster. basically its not going to be worth the hassle.

ShockWave
October 16th, 2002, 04:10 AM
my kno3 is very fine powder, really fine, much smaller cristals then tabelsalt, so I dont think that i have to mill it anymore, kinepak is the strongest booster i can make, do i have a change, I will try it anyway but maybe you know other idea's to help to succeed.

ShockWave
October 25th, 2002, 06:30 PM
Well, I'm still shaking and my hands are still dirty from the mud.

Why ?!

well, look here !! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

<a href="http://apanshock.tripod.com/PNNM.htm" target="_blank">http://apanshock.tripod.com/PNNM.htm</a>

PNNM is.....just no words for it !

kingspaz
October 25th, 2002, 07:22 PM
shockwave, 1.4kg is a large charge! also it looks like it could have been a partial detonation. it can be clearly seen that there is KNO3 everywhere around the detonation site. if it had been a full detonation then you would have been even more impressed. try it out with 500g charges to begin with, 1400g is a hell of alot of explosive.

<small>[ October 25, 2002, 06:24 PM: Message edited by: kingspaz ]</small>

NERV
October 25th, 2002, 09:57 PM
Kingspaz, I think the white stuff that looks like KNO3 is just shattered concrete.

Shockwave thats a really nice explosion good work. Was it placed on the ground by the concrete, or was it on top of it because it doesn’t look like the dirt was touched much. I would like to be able to do larg blasts like that, but there are way to many people around (and I cant drive to a remote area :( )

CyclonitePyro
October 25th, 2002, 10:16 PM
I was just wondering where everyone gets their nitromethane. I have plenty right now but I get it from ebay whenever I can and that not often, once a year.
I tried in a hobby shops, this one time I was asking if they had 100% nitromethane and the guy got really suspicious and asked me what I wanted it for and what I was planning on doing. I told him mixing my own rc car fuel, and he went on saying how dangerous it is and I left.
Only to realize I was wearing my "Hard-Core Pyro" t-shirt with a hug mushroom cloud on the back! :D To say the least I remember to never wear stuff like that while shopping or testing.

EP
October 26th, 2002, 12:27 AM
I have that shirt too, and stopped wearing it because I got a lot of funny looks. :D

I have several other pyro shirts however...

Nice work shockwave!

ShockWave
October 26th, 2002, 04:51 AM
Nerv is right !

The stuff you can see is pieces of stone, in my 200Gr APAN test you can see white stuff too, but is also pieces of stone, The charge was not really burried, it was a little bit in contact with the stone plate, and wet mud was on top of it.

I began with 1400gr. because I allready have much experience with ANNM, 3,5kg and less.

I don't think that PNNM is weaker than ANNM, but the PNNM was really wet.

I still have 24Kg of KNO3 left, should 3 KG of NM be enough ?
otherwise it will be too expensive.
That would be a ration 8:1 instead 4:1 !

Mr Cool
October 26th, 2002, 12:26 PM
Don't risk it, because if those proportions don't work then you'll have wasted all your KNO3 and all your NM.

ShockWave
October 26th, 2002, 01:48 PM
I know, That would be a big waste,

The Kno3 here has a big function I think, I mean if I let 250gr.NM absorb in some wood saw, then The blast would be much weaker I think.

Maybe it is time to add charcoal to the Kno3 instead of NM, to see what will happen, if it works I will pay for around 27,5KG of PNCC(potassiumNitrateCharCoal) only 16 usa$ !!!!!

BTW, to the PNNM test, I added a few daylight pictures.

<a href="http://apanshock.tripod.com/PNNM.htm" target="_blank">http://apanshock.tripod.com/PNNM.htm</a>

Anthony
October 26th, 2002, 04:20 PM
Glad you had fun :)

One thing I must mention though, is that in your weighing pictures, the detonator is inserted into the booster and the booster in contact with the secondary. This really is a big no, no.

Whilst it's probably ok to weigh the secondary and booster together, strictly they should be put together, especially sicne you are using such an unstable one.

The cap makes no discernible difference to the overall weight of the charge, thus there really is no reason to have it inserted. Really you're just asking for trouble there. Admitedly it was probably only for the time when the charge was weighed, but sod's law says during those 5 minutes is when your cap decides to go off for no reason. Plus, we don't know that it was just for the weighing, you might have taken the charge to the site "complete" like that.

A less serious point is the booster. You really don't need that much, in fact none is needed. Sorry, but I see it as an uncessary inclusion when it is probably the most dangerous part of your ignition train. Yes, the cap is more sensitive, but there's a lot more of the booster to hurt you.

Not meaning to spoil your fun, but no one here wants you to succumb to the odds of an "unlikely" accident - they're always the ones that catch people out...

ShockWave
October 27th, 2002, 06:05 AM
I must agree that it was not so smart to do the primary allready in the secondary, but it was a rainy night and to put my booster in PNNM while I am still in my car, well I just didn't like to do that stuff in my car.

About the booster, if I had 5gr.AP as blastingcap, the PNNM went off also, but I found out that when I use an oversize booster that it will always be a 100% detonation, sometimes with a to small amount of AP the ANNM did not went off.

I think that if I did not put the mud on top of the charge that it would be a half detonation, but that is what I think.

Helos
November 1st, 2002, 05:10 PM
Wait...you didnt want to do that stuff in your car? Dont you realize that is something had gone wrong then you had got killed wherever you had been, and then I myself hadnt cared about the car.
Master you psychology! In al cases, I think the risc you took was wery little. It was probably more liklier that you had damadged yourself when handling the AP.

Do you think that a nr8. blasting cap will be enough for these charges?
Or if I am using something improvised maybee 2 g. HMTD?

Anthony
November 2nd, 2002, 01:32 PM
I can't remember off-hand, or find the appropriate table, how much explosive a No.8 cap contains, but since it's used for dynamite I think it should be enough. You could always tape two together if it isn't enough.

2gm of HMTD is plenty.

nbk2000
November 2nd, 2002, 07:55 PM
#8 detonator was standardized at 2 grams of mercury fulminate or equivilant.

Helos
November 3rd, 2002, 06:43 AM
Yes that is correct, but I have heard that a modern #8 is stronger than a singleloaded MF-cap. If the cap is homemade differences in density for example can mean that 2g MF improvised cap is less than a commercialcap. I have also noticed that modern caps often have a "hole" in one end , this means that it gives a directed force (shaped charge) which makes it relatively stronger.

I dont know but 2g HMTD may have the same strenght that a #8 cap?

Helos
November 3rd, 2002, 06:51 AM
NBK: What is the RTPB rules?
I downloaded them and I understand nothing.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Did you follow directions? Like changing the extension and downloading the viewer?

NBK
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
No I didnt. I thhought it was optionally, but I was dumb. But hey! You need a password!
What is it?

Helos

<small>[ November 03, 2002, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: Helos ]</small>

Mr Cool
November 3rd, 2002, 08:38 AM
Helos, 2 grams of HMTD will definitely detonate anything that an old #8 will, if a #8 was 2 grams of MF since HMTD is a MUCH better initiator than MF.
I think modern #8's are roughly a gram of PETN or RDX, I'm not sure if they are equal in power (or initiating ability) to the older ones. They may have changed the standards but kept the numbering system the same.

Helos
November 3rd, 2002, 05:47 PM
I thought HMTD was not a very good primer because it has a low density (0,7g/cm3 when normally compressed in a cap, MF has 2-3g/cm3)
But if HMTD are better then MF its not bad but good news :)
Do you know how much better it is, how much do you need to get a #8cap?

EventHorizon
November 3rd, 2002, 09:07 PM
I believe HMTD is MUCH better than MF. In some MHN tests even .7g MF wouldn't initiate 1g MHN, however, as little as .2g HMTD would. Just my 2¢ for whats its worth.

blindreeper
January 17th, 2004, 10:13 AM
Sorry to bring up and old topic but I didn't want to start a new one on the same subject :)

I have been busy doing to PNNM blasting. The first one I ever did was 400g contained in a milo tin. It was 300g KNO3 and 100ml nitromethane. A detonator consisting of 20g AP was over kill but I wanted to be sure. Upon detonation 50m away a massive BOOM was heard as you would expect and the shockwave was felt through my body, as did 5 other people feel this shockwave. We bugged off pretty fast and didn't get a chance to see the crater. I assume it was a full detonation due to the shockwave felt. The camera died just before detonation :mad:

One thing lead to another and a 1.25kg charge was then tried. This time we got pictures and movies. The charge consisted of 1kg of fine ground KNO3 fertilizer and 250ml of nitromethane (100%) This was a replica of Shockwaves test.

Picture of the charge mixed together -http://img4.photobucket.com/albums/v29/blindreeper/PNNM/1250g_of_PNNM.jpg
Film can of AP detonator - http://img4.photobucket.com/albums/v29/blindreeper/PNNM/detonator.jpg
All the stuff ready to go - http://img4.photobucket.com/albums/v29/blindreeper/PNNM/All_of_the_stuff.jpg

The fuse was in masking tape due to rain.

The charge was burried in a 60cm deep hole 25cm round. It was burried and the fuse lit. This fuse went out! It stuffed up 7 times because of moisture! So we decided to do something extremely stupid and I am not proud of this in anyway, we made a rope from a towel and soaked it in methylated spirits. The charge was just sitting in the hole, no dirt on top with the AP exposed with the towel hanging over the top of it. This proved successfull :p

Here is a movie of detonation - http://blindreeper.250free.com/1250gPNNM.wmv

I didn't film it so don't blame me for jerking the camera, he got scared from the massive shockwave. Upon detonation from 30m away a massive earth shattering KABOOOOOOOM!!! Was heard. The video has crap sound and sounds like a gun shot but it was massive! The shockwave made me loose my footing on the slippery grass.
Here are so after shots, remember it was just sitting in the hole and the hol was 25cm round to begin with...

http://img4.photobucket.com/albums/v29/blindreeper/PNNM/crater.jpg

http://img4.photobucket.com/albums/v29/blindreeper/PNNM/crater_close.jpg

http://img4.photobucket.com/albums/v29/blindreeper/PNNM/crater2.jpg - Thats ground zero after we filling the crater up :)

Well thats all I have for the moment. I am fairly sure it was a full detonation because the shockwave was massive and no traces of KNO3 in the hole. The movie doesn't do it justice, it has a slow frame rate and the sound is shot, it was much bigger and louder than what you see.

Third_Rail
January 17th, 2004, 11:35 AM
Sounds like you had a lot of fun, I can't wait to see that movie. The biggest PNNM charge I've ever done was 100g total, so I'd love to see how yours looks in comparison.

blindreeper
January 18th, 2004, 02:25 AM
Ok I added the movie, here is the link anyway http://blindreeper.250free.com/1250gPNNM.wmv

Mumble
January 18th, 2004, 11:01 PM
Am I the only one, that the movie doesn't work for? I get this scrambled screen, and this not quite clicking sound. The clicking is so regular I could time my heart off it. Oh well, from the pictures and what I've heard it seems like it was great fun.

Third_Rail
January 19th, 2004, 10:00 AM
Blindreeper, with the amount the camera shook, it must've scared the crap out of your friend; not too visually impressive, but it still looked as though there would've been a wonderful report from that...

xyz
January 19th, 2004, 08:42 PM
Mumble, it sounds as if you don't have the appropriate codec to view the video properly.

Third_Rail, people who have never experienced explosives before can get a very big fright/surprise. I know a guy who fell on his ass when he heard a 4g APPN salute, he wasn't especially close either, about 20m (he had never experienced explosives before, it was quite funny).

blindreeper
January 19th, 2004, 09:19 PM
Being 20-30m away from 1.25kg of HE you would be startled aswell! My friend was filming and he had only seen a 400g PNNM before. Even with 400g he was freaking out running around in circles until we threw him in the car so we could piss off outa' there!

Selleri
January 20th, 2004, 02:58 PM
I have maked too some PNNM; 0.5kg, 1.8kg, 2kg, 4kg and 4.5kg. 4.5kg was really impressive and powerful. we blasted it on ice and it maked about 1m diameter hole into 30-40cm thick hard ice :) , the sound was really good, first 0.5seconds _very_ loud boom and then bang.
video is pretty dark and there was seen just bright flash when it exploded.

i will upload some pictures and maybe video.


ftp://212.149.248.65:27500/
sorry for very slow server :)

Rolfiboy
February 10th, 2004, 04:02 AM
Hi do someone have tryed to sensitize NM with 5-6% aqueous ammonia? Well i will try, but where i live NM is not very cheap, but i would like to hear if someone know about VOD and other data on sensitized NM?

The link to the source:
http://home.conceptsfa.nl/~sniper/Pyro/Bestanden/NitromethaneLiquidExplosive.pdf

blindreeper
February 10th, 2004, 04:27 AM
What does ammonia sensatised NM come in to play with the thread? I don't know of ammonia but Axt did tests with amines from glues and that worked well. Search for a thread about nitromethane explosives.

Rolfiboy
February 10th, 2004, 04:55 AM
What does ammonia sensatised NM come in to play with the thread? I don't know of ammonia but Axt did tests with amines from glues and that worked well. Search for a thread about nitromethane explosives.

Well actually this treat is also about sensitizing of NM becaurse that is what the nitrate do.

blindreeper
February 10th, 2004, 06:21 AM
The KNO3 accually detonates by the results shown. But I still don't think it fits here.

Rolfiboy
February 10th, 2004, 06:46 AM
The KNO3 accually detonates by the results shown. But I still don't think it fits here.

yaeh i know, thats because its a nitrate, but the KNO3(and all other nitrate) and NM are very unsensitive, and you mix them to make them more sensitive, and actually it is the NM there is being more sensitive and detonate the nitrate!

If you add sensitized NM to the KNO3 it could be more sensitive to blasting caps.

Maybe it doesnt fit here, but isnt this treat about sensitizing of KNO3 and NM?