Easy ways to harm attackers... - Archive File

[megalomania]

simply RED
Frequent Poster
Posts: 240
From: HELL
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 03-30-2001 02:54 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was walking tonight at 22 o'clock on the street near my flat(retturning from the local computer club), and 6 idiots (they may have been 5) attacked me... I wasn't beaten very hard (maybe because I was only defending myself) and they couldn't steal any money from me(they could't steal anything because I put my money in secret places in my clothes). But I am really ANGRY!!! I wish I have injured all of them so severely that 6 weeks hospital treatment won't be enough to cure.
Now I'm thinking what weapon should i used to cope with the problem(i mean something home made like flamethrower(maybe) or jar of nitrir mixture (50:50 HNO3 with H2SO4) or solution pirahna (H2O2 with H2SO4)- very good deals with eyez.(that sounds sadistic, isn't it).
So can you give me some advice what to do if those motha fuckars retturn....



BoB-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 679
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 03-30-2001 03:33 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NBK's pocket dragon design is good except its only one time firing, so if you missed...
Buy a gun and apply for a concealed weapons permit if your in the states. [edit:] Actually, I'm starting to rethink this idea, in Virginia, a Chanellos pizza driver got held up, and the driver shot and killed his attacker, there prosecuting him!

So, unfortunatly, it would be best for your freedoms sake to let the piggies handle it. *shivers* I feel dirty.


[This message has been edited by BoB- (edited March 30, 2001).]



Maddoc
Moderator
Posts: 537
From: Dizneland
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 03-30-2001 04:44 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Take a vicks nasel inhaler and fill it with whatever you want. But remember that it might leak so dont using ANYTHING with DMSO mixed in as suggested in other sources.
------------------
Whoa, where my fingers?



FadeToBlackened
Frequent Poster
Posts: 201
From: Hell
Registered: MAR 2001
posted 03-30-2001 04:59 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The other day after gym class i saw someone w/ a black 9oz. CO2 canister for paintball. Immediately i thought of something. This would be only for killing or severely hurting people (like at the end of civilization or whatever hehe). Take then end off the canister (UNcharged! hehe) and put liquid phosgene (COCl2) in it, put the top part back on(It's just a little threaded piece) and pressurize it w/ CO2. Then you attach an air blowgun (they go on air compressors) to it. It basically pepper spray (or mace) from Hell. Use the power wisely hehe. Ive never tried to make phosgene, but it wouldnt be very hard at all. Btw, anyone know what is in mace? And what is DMSO?


Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 03-30-2001 06:53 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think you'd be best giving that phosgene a miss, you really don't want to that close to it! If you did phosgene the guys, sprayed acid in their face or killed or mutilated them in other ways, you will get fucked! The "crime" you will be commiting by defending yourself will be taken far more seriously than them mugging you.
What you want is something that will cause amazing pain/incapacitance but will not do permanent damage (evidence). Something like an extra spicy mace, I think MrCool has a good one that's easily made and works.

The good thing about Maddoc's Vix bottle idea (or other small sprayer) is it's very innocent, you could get searched without fear of being busted for carrying an illegal weapon.



c0deblue
Frequent Poster
Posts: 229
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 03-31-2001 12:34 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd listen to Anthony on that one, RED and FTB. "Getting even" that way simply isn't worth the long prison sentence it would probably get you, and the atmosphere of fear resulting from all the recent school shootings will also put you at a distinct disadvantage.
DMSO = Dimethyl Sulfoxide, an industrial solvent (also used by horse veterinarians) that enhances skin absorption dramatically. It's said that when a drop of DMSO mixed with a strong flavoring (like lemon juice) is applied to any part of the body, the flavor will pretty much instantly be tasted on the tongue. Drugs and poisons are of course rendered very much more dangerous and fast acting when mixed with this stuff.

I understand that the juice of the "hotter" varieties of hot peppers can actually produce painful skin lesions and blisters after relatively brief contact. Anything like this though, when used as a weapon, is likely to be viewed by the authorities as little different from the Lewisite and Mustard vessicants of WW I. You'd be in a world of trouble.



PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 03-31-2001 12:44 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
you dont taste the stuf in dmso, it gets absorbed into you. it has a really nasty taste if you get it on your skin though. it will immediatley cause you to sense a bad taste in your mouth


John456
Frequent Poster
Posts: 105
From:
Registered: MAR 2001
posted 04-02-2001 10:01 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mace is the outer shell of the plant nutmeg comes from, ground to a power.


SMAG 12B/E5
Frequent Poster
Posts: 61
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted 04-03-2001 12:45 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can you dictate the place, time and circumstances of your next confrontation?
Formaldehyde sprayed into eyes and nose is incapacitating. Chloral hydrate can then administered. After the anesthesia, if there are no witnesses, maiming, injection of carcinogens or neurotoxins or castration could be considered. Do you control the situation? How badly were you humiliated? Will there be reprisals/revenge? Can you justify your actions to yourself? Can you escape prosecution?


DaRkDwArF
Frequent Poster
Posts: 258
From: Australia
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-03-2001 04:12 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
god, steel capped boots and some on going martial art experience is my first advise, learn to escape confrontations, only kill if you need too
[This message has been edited by DaRkDwArF (edited April 12, 2001).]



PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-03-2001 05:10 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
steel toed boots kick ass! (literaly) I wear mine all the time. as for mace, the mace that John456 mentioned is just a spice, I am not sure what chemical mace is but I think it may be related to cn or cs (cant remember witch) tear gas


Pyro
Frequent Poster
Posts: 104
From: Danbury,CT,U.S.A
Registered: MAR 2001
posted 04-11-2001 06:11 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, if you don't want to get charged(probably not as bad as the above chemicals being applied) and still want to humiliate and hurt(possibly severly) just start yourself on an intensive workout program until you are huge, then learn some sort of fighting style(i reccommend karate or something involving mind over matter{pain tolerance})until you are very good.This is more of a long term idea which require you to be fairly large in the first place(but if your good,you can be small).This is the most fun and rewarding way to take care of this sort of stuff but once again,it's long term. I have adopted this idea and think it's intense but is worth it.My 1 cent.-Pyro


kingspaz
Frequent Poster
Posts: 347
From: UK
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-16-2001 05:41 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
you could try a deactivated grenade and scare the vbastards away. pull the pin and hold it in the air. theres plenty of places on the net that sell them. you could use a real grenade but then u could also get blown up if it slips outa ur hand accidently.


Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 766
From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-16-2001 06:50 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steel toe boots are heavy; Just get a pair of boots the have a dense rubber sole. The last fight I was in I gave the a powerful kick to the Thigh... He dropped clutching his leg and "balling like a little bitch with a skinned knee and shit, and there ain't nothing worse than watching a Fat man cry"(Jay from Dogma). if you want to get mean straighten their knee for them or boot'em in the Shin as hard as you can then bust'em in the temple. Why don't you just read the "Black Medicine"?

------------------
A wise man once said:
"...There Will Be No
Stand Off At High Noon
... Shoot'em In The Back
And, Shoot'em In The Dark"

Agent Blak-------OUT!!



frostfire
Frequent Poster
Posts: 266
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-16-2001 06:55 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
forgive and love your attackers....
this will burn their spirits
INDNJC



DaRkDwArF
Frequent Poster
Posts: 258
From: Australia
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-17-2001 09:00 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Agent Black I've weighed my boots in at 2.3kg for the pair, thats really not heavy at all, and I wear them for about 14 hours a day... although they do smell alot =)
hmmm I think that a deactivated grenade could be good, until he figures your bluffing, has anyone ever seen one of these before? http://www.hitj.co.jp/belt/
It's called the "Thunder Belt", and mind you, resides it being a japanese invention, I believe it would be very effective in the streets!



nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1096
From: Guess
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-17-2001 09:53 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I posted the very URL for the "thunder belt" back in the '99 Improv. forum. Didn't get any replies about it though.
But it would certainly be easy to make yourself since it's just some steel cabling (plastic coated is best) with a steel ring on one end.

I'd imagine that a small steel knob or such clamp on the free end would greatly increase the effectiveness of the thing. Perhaps coating the last few inches with glass grit would help things along too.

------------------
"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"

Go here to download the NBK2000 website PDF.

Go here to download the NBK2000 videos.



rjche
Frequent Poster
Posts: 52
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-25-2001 10:53 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
compressed gas or liquid gas plus basketball inflation needle sharpened.
put needle on end of butane lighter filler, that turns on when the end is pressed.

Put needle on valve attached to small propane, butane, or paint can (nasty).

To use jam needle into skin, turn on gas, skin blows up like balloon, exquisite pain, not permanent damage unless you blow it up too big.

Accident: person filling helium baloons fell against the tank and somehow gas was discharged blowing his skin up a lot. doctor said best treatment was do nothing and let it leach out by blood absorption for it was everywhere. Surprised me for I would try poking someholes to let most of it out. He wouldn't because of the danger of infection.

A similar weapon is used against sharks I think.

Then too a flamable can of hornet and wasp spray shoots a stream 15 ft. IF not flamable enough refil with gasoline, spray attacker, then light stream for grand finale.

simpler version is container of gasoline. throw on attacker, then light it. Squeeze bottle with nozzle tip would work well. Carry it around like a drink bottle. might even be able to use drink bottle if cap didn't dissolve from gas. If so use alcohol.

Race drivers say wrecked car with driver flapping his ass wildly means he got soaked with alcohol fuel, and its afire with an invisible flame.





c0deblue
Frequent Poster
Posts: 229
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 04-26-2001 12:11 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The above technique could be *very* dangerous if the gas is injected in the wrong place.
It was rumored that certain organized groups used a CO2 cartridge with a sharpened tube four to five inches long as an asassination weapon. The needle-like tube is thrust in an upward motion through the victim's diaphragm and the cylinder is discharged through a fast release valve of the type used to inflate life preservers. The gas immediately pressurizes the thoracic cavity causing instant and total lung collapse, a condition difficult to reverse even if medical help is immediate. Even though total lung volume is rapidly expelled past the vocal cords, the shock of the event prevents the victim from uttering a sound.

(Don't try this at home.)



PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-26-2001 05:08 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
actually, that condition is easily reversed, just insert a needle into the chest cavity, they do it all the time when you puncture a lung so you can keep breathing withou the air leaking into your chest keeping your lungs from taking in air. I beleve you insert a makeshift tube right below the zyphoid process (sp) I could be wrong though


Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-26-2001 05:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not sure a chest drain would work since the lungs would be completely flat and may not inflate again.


Ctrl_C
Frequent Poster
Posts: 225
From:
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 04-26-2001 07:49 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
at a pressure that high in the thoracic cavity would collapse the lungs to the point of the alveolar walls coming into contact with each other. water cohesion makes them almost impossible to "unstick". even given the fact that the alveoli produce an enzyme that breaks hydrogen bonds called surfactant, a pneumothorax of that degree would most certantly bring death.


PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-26-2001 08:49 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
you'd have to inject alot of gas to do that but I sappose it might do that if it was fast enough, but someone might be able to save them by forcing air into the lungs,


DaRkDwArF
Frequent Poster
Posts: 258
From: Australia
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-27-2001 07:11 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm working on my own thunderbelt right now =) I've decided to use old school 10mbit BNC cable, I'm taking pics as I go, so yeah I'll zip them with a text file and send them to NBK for upload into his ftp

[firemaker]

Can somebody please explain what a thunder belt is? I clicked the link, but it is in all Japaneese characters and my computer won't let me translate it.
Thanks

[nbk2000]

Why don't you click around till you find the FUCKING PICTURES?! :mad:

[Dumbo]

My understanding is that its a simple belt with a garotte cord hidden in it. Silent Death =).

[None]

Or a whip of some sort.
the only problem i see with the thunderbelt is that if you are arrested or searched by the police, they often make you take your belt off... The cable would then be clearly visible.

[peterthesmart]

I've been using Babel Fish (http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/tr) to translate websites. It works pretty well but it won't translate the images.

[Skean Dhu]

or an alternative to brass knuckles(and much less suspicious) is one of those climbing carabiners that you use when belaying/repelling(abseiling) just make sure its big enough to fit around you hand. you can have your key ring on it for a perfectly legitimate excuse. and you can use it when/if you go climbing or maybe on a 'job'

[Fukineh]

Thats a great idea, I just played with my locking belaying biner, and it turns out it fits very nicely into my hand. In addition, it has a locking gate so that both sides are a solid surface, and the hitting surface has a nice shape with a sharply convex part, this would focus the energy on a smaller point then with your fist, and you could use full power. The metal surface allows for punching of just about anything, however, during some hits the biner will rotate, and contact will be made with the fist (not a big deal if it is a tender part of a person though).

Anyway, if would probably be nice if you could supply a bit of additional padding to the part of the caribiner that is in your hand. Doing this could of course make it more obviose as a weapon. I have made handhelled assenders before (like the ones used for caving and big wall aid climbing) out of giant caribiners, and utilizing a specialized prussick knot that allows movement only in one direction. Anyway, to padd these biners I used a peice of rubber pipe. What one could do is take some soft rubber pipe and cut a slit down the side if they desired to make the caribiner more usefull as a weapon. This way, the rubber could be slipped off in an istant and you are left with just a climbing biner.

Also, if the caribiner is being used as a key chain, addtional items which may be attatched could be used for extra pain. Primarily, I'm thinking a key between your middle and ring figer as you have the biner in your fist. This would put the energy on an even smaller point.

Ok, another more idea for an improvised weapon. If you can find an excuse to have them on you, large ball bearings. On approach you seem unarmed, but really, you are armed with a fistfiller, projectiles, and extremely hard surfaces to hit with when you wish to hit bony surfaces (jaw or sternum for example). You could fist hurl one at the face, downing or distracting the attacker, then, with one of two in your palm, strike with what would orfinarily be an open hand, but in this case is a palm full of steel.

Another idea is to have a magazine rolled up extreamly tight and held with elastic bands. Staples would be on the outside of course. This would seem as an innocent weapon. Also, a lead pipe could be wrapped in newspaper if you wanted a harder hitting surface. Of course, if you where caught and your weapon was looked at in this case it would not work, this would only look innocent from far away (aside from the fact that you are knocking out people with a newspaper).

[Fukineh]

Ok, I just found an article on ball bearings as weapons which can offer a better discription (with pictures).

http://www.sonic.net/~quine/bball.html

[knowledgehungry]

Have you ever actually punched anything with a biner? It will break your knuckles. I have done it before and i wont do it again.

[Fukineh]

You don't put it over your knuckles, you punch with the surface between your knuckles. I did some tests, and for hard punches its a good idea to have some padding in there, it coulde even be some folded up strap which would be attatched to your "key chain" in the first place. Through experimenting, I find that a key between the middle and pointer finger is most comfortable, as well as something else sticking out of the bottom of the palm for sidways hits or stabbing.

Even if you can't get it so that you can punch with power and comfort at the same time, fast well aimed punches with a small surface like this when targeted at the right place will hurt like shit, even if they are not expecially hard.

[knowledgehungry]

Well i prefer my fists, biners add little weight since they are usually mad of aluminum, and i have hard and bony knuckles as it is, so there really isnt much reason to use them. I actually have in the past used a biner on my hand in a fight, however it had little effect as 3 on 1 makes it hard to get any good hits in, it also takes a while to get it off your belt while your getting kicked on the ground:( .

[Fukineh]

Well yes, against numbers problems always arize. Here is an idea though...... every gang I have fought has used clubs on me and or my buddies. If you can grab a club after they swing with your undominent hand (and we are assuming they are clubbing with their dominent), and you can hold them there and get some good blows in...... However, agaist numbers this is impractical and not easy at all because if you are holding one club, there are many more on you.

Now, some swings can be blocked by striking the assailet with a hard blow to their forarm, yet what would your attackers think if you could simply put your arm up and block a an incoming steel club without taking pain? To do this, one could wear a long sleeve shirt and have some steel bars running down the outside of their lower arm (with foam facing in to absord some energy). I tried this as an experiment and I could take quite a hit. Now, you could add ridges to these so that as you block you can also attack by smacking with your arms, providing more options for defence against groups. To make your elbow more effective, you could some sort of hard stud on it that focusses energy on a point.

It would be so much easier if we could block some of the time rather than dodging light blunt weapons, but anyone with half a brain knows that taking one of these directly to a bone in your arm is not good for you, even if it is protecting your face.

[Fukineh]

Oh, for close courters pain, a jet lighter can be your friend. If a fight comes to wrestling range, and there is holding involved, a 1200 degree flame direct on the skin will make anyone squeel. For added effect, take it to the hair, or coterize thier noze for em.

[nbk2000]

Fukineh, you're getting dangerously close to being found guilty of "Post Whoring". One post following the other, first with a 13 minute delay, then an even shorter 8 minute delay.

EDIT your posts to include new information, and re-read the damn rules as posted at the top of the Water Cooler! :mad:

[nokianinja780]

Ok, let's go back 3 years to when this initial incident occurred.

"I was walking tonight at 22 o'clock...and 6 idiots (they may have been 5) attacked me... I wasn't beaten very hard ... But I am really ANGRY!!! I wish I have injured all of them so severely that 6 weeks hospital treatment won't be enough to cure.
Now I'm thinking what weapon should i used to cope with the problem..."

So the problem is you don't like getting jumped by groups of people and beaten up, and you want to prevent this from happening again. I'm assuming this means you want to WIN next time this happens, rather than simply avoiding the confrontation(which isn't always an option anyway).

"I wish I have injured all of them so severely that 6 weeks hospital treatment won't be enough to cure."

Well maybe winning isn't enough, but let's at least start with that. You can't punish someone very easily when they've still got you in a headlock, so you'll want to win the fight first and foremost. Get them on the ground for a few moments.

Here's what I carry:
Pepper Bloc Fire Master (Pepper Spray)
10% OC fogger rated @ 2 million Scoville units. 3 oz unit sprays 15 feet. 25 one-second bursts.

You could quite literally down an entire football team with one of these. I test sprayed this in my sink, and I had to evacuate my basement for several hours because I couldn't breathe. When it shoots, it feels like a fire extinguisher(hence the name). A small drop on the lips feels like you just ate a plate of suicide wings and you're rushing to grab a glass of water.

Once they're on the ground scratching their eyes out in pain, THEN you can start jabbing them with things or setting them on fire. The point is to be realistic and keep your priorities in order.

[knowledgehungry]

I just remembered my favorite improvised streetfighting weapon. Master locks you slip the U part over your middle finger with the big round part in your fist, works like brass knuckles except only on one knuckle, I can punch bricks and no pain :).

[Skean Dhu]

when i typed the post about carabiners i was thinking of it's use more when swinging upward...like if said 'biner is on right hand take your hand pinky side up and swing from left hip to shoulder height hopefully connecting with the lower jaw somewhere in between.

I thought up another weapon this is used when you have them on the ground rolling in agony clutching their eyes from the mace. get a decent length of nichrome wire and configure it along with some 9v batteries to look similar to a tazer but rather than zapping them it cuts and cauterises like those "hotknives" found int any hardware store selling rope. you could alternatively make creative shapes in it so they will cherish their humiliation forever

[Imperial]

Personally, I have been doing martial arts for years, and I find that if you know where to hit you don't really need too much training or special weapons of any sort.

The thing is, if you want to repel an attacker (or multiple attackers) there are several pressure points which you can use to cause severe, excruciating pain, but no permanent damage (that'll keep the piggies off your back). Just in the head there are many. For example, hitting someone in the joint between the upper and lower jaw (just forward of their ear) will cause severe pain, and may dislocate/break their jaw if you hit hard enough. But just hit them a little or push into the area with your knuckle if you want to keep away from (il)legalities. Another good one is the bridge between the nostrils. Pushing directly upwards here will also cause severe pain, and actually hitting them here hard will cause throbbing headaches for a while. Another good pressure point is just between the places where the clavicles meet the sternum (below the adam's apple). Just shove a finger here and they will be off you. Under the earlobes, just behind the jaw, is another excellent one, which will cause the person pain beyond reckoning. And this place is so secluded, very few marks will be left which will be visible to nosy piggies later on.

All of these pressure points (there are many more) cause little permanent damage, but good immediate pain, so are good to use if you are attacked and don't wish to be prosecuted. Here are some of the more permanently damaging techniques:
Firstly, the temple is a great place to cause damage. Hitting someone here will cause them concussion, and possibly even brain damage or death. Use with caution.
Secondly, just behind the cranium is an area where the spinal chord meets the skull. Hitting someone here with a hammerfist or even a flat-handed slap or palm heel will also cause headaches or concussion.
The solar plexus is the triangle made where the lower ribs meet the sternum. Punching someone here will wind them almost instantly, and may even stop their heart. They will hat trouble breathing, and since this is a soft spot, you will be able to hit it without damaging your own hands.
Hitting the floating ribs (in the back just below the rib cage) is great if you want to cause real pain or damage. Just try feeling there with your hands and you should see that it is a very sensitive spot. Use with caution because many organs (kidneys, spleen, etc) are found here, and if ruptured the person could die of internal bleeding. Just a few hits here should be enough to immobilise an attacker, and if you really wish to be cruel you could kick them here.

Of course, the genitals are a good place to go if your attacker is male, and you wish to sterilise the human gene pool by preventing the sort of scum who would attack you from procreating.

It all depends on how dirty you want to fight, and how much damage you are willing to cause. Just remember that too much damage could result in your prosecution and having to pay lots of money in compensation. Unless they don't know who it was who hit them ;)!

Remember this: Causing someone severe pain will throw them off balance and allow you to get them down and do even more painful things to them. And don't be afraid to use teeth, etc. if you are in a headlock or other not-so-pleasant position.

And weapons are also very effective; although they once again have legal issues. My suggestion is to use "pain" techniques to hurt your attackers as much as possible without causing severe injury to make sure that the attackers learn their lesson, you get your revenge, and you avoid legal reprecussions to an extent.

[nbk2000]

If you're close enough to hit him, he's close enough to hit you, thus the reason why weapons were created in the pre-historic ages...to distance yourself from your target so you can hurt him, but he can't hurt you.

Woman also have vulnerable gentials, though it's internal. If you punch a female HARD where her ovaries are, she'll go down just like a man kicked in the nuts. :D

Oh, and since the ovaries are located low in the pelvic girdle, it's likely to be unprotected by a ballistic vest, should you have to deal with a female piggie. ;)

[static_firefly]

I was mugged once. I was standing there and three black guys (not trying to be raceist but u can visualise it better with the beenies and stuff) came up and started pushing me asking for "5 bucks" i said i didnt have any and they threw me on the ground. they threatend me a bit then left..i was suprised more then anything. and no one in the croweded bus stop did anything, they acted like nothing happend. After that i really wish i could have seriously screwed them up. I though a small flame thrower, his friends would look up to see him ingulfed in a fire ball before runing around on fire. Something like a hell lighter with a let lighter attached to ensure ignition. Another idea i got from a powerhead. Instead of a footlong pole with a 12gauge shell to blast sharks i had the idea that a small .22 version could be made and hidden inside a metal pen. No one would suspect that and when you ram the pen into there leg, the bullet would fire and plow into the skin at point blank range.

[knowledgehungry]

Someone already did the self defence lighter, i believe there is a thread for it. Basically CO2 canister filled with butane. It is very sad how no one ever does anything to help anyone out, having a lot of people around isnt going to stop anyone unless the people are your friends.

[Imperial]

That is a good point nbk2000; if you have weapons then they can't get close enough to hurt you.

The thing with weapons is, though, carrying them around may earn you some problems with the Porky Patrol, and they have weapons too. This is why I think that unless in extreme circumstances (walking around in the middle of The Stinks (TM) in the middle of the night) bare-hand combat is the best if you know where and how to hit. Punching while holding dumbells is a great way to increase speed as well as power. This also applies to close-range weapons like knives, batons, etc.

If the carrying of weapons is needed, then the best sorts of weapons are either weapons which are easy to hide/look like normal items (keep the bacon off your back) which have some sort of ranged (not necessarily long range) capability. Examples are the lighter mentioned (cause some real damage :D) or knuckle dusters but only a single ring (that should break some bone with little effort). Other good things are pepper spray or mace, and making your own 'special' mix might also be effective (see chemistry forums ;)).

[yt2095]

take a peek on here in the thread "aerosol Waepons"
of if you wish to be particularly lethal, take a look in "Stabbing Weapons"

I like sugestion Fuckineh made about the steel gauntlets under your sleeves, it takes me back to my school days when I wore a pair daily for about 8 months made of 3mm Alu sheeting under my school uniform because I was always picked on having a strange accent after just arriving in this country from Canada (I am UK born though, just lived over there for 8 years).
the gauntlets didn`t make me a better fighter (I`m still no good at fighting anyway, I prefer revenge) but I know for a fact that I blocked a good many kicks and punches with them and as a result ended up with a few percent less bruises than I otherwise would have sustained.

just a damn shit shame we have to think this way!

[BaDSeeD]

Guys all you need to do is be creative here.
Damned near ANYTHING can be used as a weapon if you use a little imagination. And you can improve ordinary things to make them more effective.
For example, everyone carries keys (i know this has been mentioned). Instead of those whimpy little split rings that are on there, replace them with something heavier that wont seperate easily. Attach a small maglite (AA size or AAA). Looks innocent as hell dosnt it? Its just a wad of keys and a flashlight. Now what if you swing it? Almost reminds you of nunchucks dosnt it? Or just hold the flashlight in your hand like an icepick and strike at any part of the body that has minimal flesh over bone, like the shoulder, wrist, hands, knee, head whatever. I guarantee its going to hurt like hell. Even if it dosn't break the bone. Not to mention being used as a weapon, a flashlight is a handy thing to have on your keychain anyway.
How about your belt? I know a lot of people don't wear one, but I do because I got tired of the plumbers ass jokes when I was younger (not to mention my wife is trying to get me to stop dressing like a slob). FInd a nice heavy belt buckle for that belt and sew the loop closed so it can't come off (easily anyhow). Makes a pretty good weapon, I sure wouldn't want to be cracked with it.
I remember once from school when I was a kid, one of the badass broads took off her shoe, and beat the living shit out of another girl with it. Hell as a freshman I clubbed the fuck out of a senior with my history book.
The point of all this is, that you don't have to get too extravagant with your weapons. The best weapon you'll ever use is the one thats handy. Some fancy ass pocket flame thrower may be cool to play around with, but odds are, that when you need it, you won't have brought it that day.
Look around you, wherever you go. I'm sure you'll see things EVERYWHERE that can be used as a weapon in an emergency. And just remember that it dosn't need to be fancy to be effective (remember the history book?).

[SOL]

Originally posted by Imperial
Personally, I have been doing martial arts for years, and I find that if you know where to hit you don't really need too much training or special weapons of any sort.

So what exactly is years of Martial arts? Non training??????

But more seriously, for a nifty little weapon you can get studded gloves and connect the to metal studs on the primary knuckles to a shock circuit (disposibal cameras come with these ready made) make nifty weapons for stopping people, you get the added shock to your punch, although you do have to wait a few seconds for it to be effective

[bobo]

I had a discussion recently about readily available 'tools' that have other uses than self-defence. This guy has pepperspray and some kind of air pistol for defence. He also showed me the flares that seafarers use to mark their position if the weather conditions are poor. He thought that would make a good weapon that can be fired straight at an assailant (the flares are small and his 'gun' held six of them).

Now I am thinking: these flares provide an awful lot of light and they should provide an awful lot of heat too. But since they are made to last for a long time they cannot burn too fast. If they hit the target hard and bounce off quickly there would be one pissed guy who'd still be very capable to stab the shooter.

Has anyone had any experience with these things? I guess they should be easy to acquire even in countries with tight gun control like mine.

[Knuckles666]

My first post! Anyway...

Like others in the forum, I wear steel toecapped boots (part of work code too!), and I know from forst hand experience, a kick in the shin is pure agony!
Another useful item is an old plastic card, like an old I.D, and sharpening one of the shorter sides. You can then use this to slash, and force it up into the nose which will promptly split it!

Ive also heard of people carrying a pocket full of small change that can be thrown very hard into the face of attackers.

When I was a kid, I emptied a bottle of glasses cleaning spray and filled it with liquid strained and filtered from a bottle of tobasco sauce, incredibly effective in countries where pepper spray is illegal. Also for people in the UK, www.spytech-uk.com sell a spray that actually dies the skin of the attacker bright green!

A fisher space pen was also very useful before I lost it :( Innocent, yet that along with the knowledge of how to use a kubaton is very effective!

There are so many things that can be carried innocently and used in self defence. I would also like a 3" non locking knife which is legal to carry in the UK, anyone know of a place I can get one?

Thanks, and I look forward to many more postings!

[jelly]

I would also like a 3" non locking knife which is legal to carry in the UK, anyone know of a place I can get one?

Take a look at the Emerson neck knife "La Griffe":
http://www.emersonknives.com/LaGriffe_BT.html
http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Set/2292/grifferev.htm


And this nice tool, the Spyderco Spydercard, beats any sharpened credit card: :)
http://www.knifezone.ca/spyderco/SPYDERCA.htm

[Knuckles666]

Thanks Jelly,

I love the Emerson knife, even though carrying fixed blades is illegal here in the UK! Still, rules are meant to be broken!

My girlfriend recently inherited my spyderco navigator, which was a very good knife, apart from being assembled with studs instead of screws, so it couldn't be taken down to clean. I've seen the spydercard before, and again it locks!

Sometimes I think knifemakers and the government are working together to deny us quality tools we can actually carry!

I think it's tool logic and now victorinox who make credit card multi tools. If my memory serves me right, the tool logic card contains a blade very similar to a push dagger! May consider that as a future purchase! Thanks again Jelly!

[jelly]

Isn't there any exception for rescue knives? Rescue teams often use claw knives as a rescue knife,
e. g. for cutting seat belts etc.

Two other recommendable claw (rescue:D) knives:

CRKT Bear Claw:
http://www.crkt.com/bearclaw.html

MOD Ladyhawk (an automatic folder):
http://www.mastersofdefense.com/store/store.php?c=automatic&p=40

[THErAPIST]

Speaking of CRKT knives...
http://www.crkt.com/m16zytel.html
I have carried around the M16-13Z for the last year now and have found it to be a great knife. The handle seems like its not even there. It fits almost any hand like a glove. The edge keeps well, and It can be opened VERY quickly even without oiling it any. I've never once oiled my knife and I can open it as fast as most spring loaded switch blades can open, if not a tad faster. Ive even dropped my knife off of my house onto the the concrete driveway below (not on purpose) and the knife shows no mark.

[NickSG]

What ever happened to the good ol 127 grain Ranger Ts?

[dinkydexy]

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but the truth is that if you need to ask the question, the answer's no use to you. If you're not capable of figuring out for yourself which weapon you 'd prefer to carry, then there's almost a 100% certainty that when push came to shove you'd just freeze and not use a weapon that someone else had suggested to you; it's not your lack of knowledge of weapons and how to use them that you need to develop...it's an aggressive streak that's willing to kill somebody else if they mess with you that you need to work on. Work on that and you won't need any advice.

Having said that, I'm afraid that if you get attacked by more than one person, the best thing you can do is get the hell out of there; I know it sounds yellow and all that, but the odds really are stacked high against you in a situation like that, no matter who you are. Ask any infantry soldier what his Immediate Action drill is on coming under enemy fire, and you'll get the response that it's to extract yourself from the Killing Zone, to take cover, etc....certainly not to stay put and try to fight. Sorry, but that's the intelligent thing to do.

So there we are; develop a nasty, viscious streak within yourself, but use your brain and always be prepared to run like hell when you're outnumbered...only use the screwdriver you always carry around in your back pocket when you know that you'll be the only man standing at the end of the proceedings.

[jody_kovacks]

I have to agree with Dinky on this. If you find yourself being attacked by a group, your best bet is to get the fuck out of there like now. I myself have been sprayed with pepper spray, it's a terrible sensation, but I still managed to get hold of the person spraying me and take them to task. I would imagine that if you were to spray a group of people with anything other than bullets, you had better get on your bike, or you will be stomped to death by some very pissed off assholes. Bottom line, fighting is not worth the risk. Just keep your head up and avoid the situation, and if it's unavoidable, spray'em and run. Then set up some claymores and make them pay for costing you valuable calories.

By the way, if anyone is interested in knives I would suggest taking a look at http://www.szaboinc.com/ Some of the most beautiful work I have ever seen.

[thoughtaddict]

First, in terms of martial arts, I've found that if you want to humiliate the bastards and still do some minor damage Aikido is one of the better ones. I've seen little old men attacked by 4 guys at once (in demonstration), and just tossed them like rag dolls. It was quite possibly the most absurd thing that I've ever seen... and one of the coolest.

For the lazy/short of time, how about powdered bleach/powdered lye? If the fuckers are attacking you, a sweeping motion toward the eyes of a handful of powdered bleach would be devestating, not to mention that the you could always just claim you were on your way to do some laundry. I believe it would eat away at the eyes to the point of causing permanent blindness if not treated...

[vulture]

How about a razorsharp quartz crystal you're wearing around your neck as a talisman? Zirconia or ruby might be interesting too...

[knowledgehungry]

I wouldnt want a razor sharp Talisman near all my veins and arteries. Plus wearing a talisman around your neck is a sure way to get people to attack you ;). A ruby big enough to do serious damage would cost insane money.

[demonthes12]

http://www.selfdefenseproducts.com/

A wide range of self-defense products as well as dummy grenades previously mentioned.

[Tinton]

But a bursting charge in/on a mace can. Use a pullcord, or push button ignition system to light a 2 or 3 second fuse.
Just make sure you don't make the explosive TOO powerful.... ;)

[Hirudinea]

Just a thought but what about carrying a cane with a big ass metal handle, in half a second you could crush a persons skull in with it and canes are not regarded as weapons (unlike knives, pepper spray, home made weapons) anywhere in the world that I know of.

[Alexires]

Hirudinea - A good idea. While it would be inconspicuous, the problem with any weapon is there is a chance it will get taken off you if you don't know how to use it. Personally, I'd advocate something flammable.

There is that primitive fear of fire that comes into play. If you're pumping adrenaline and someone hits you with a cane, it might hurt but it will probably just piss you off. If they set you on fire, that's a different matter.

A garden pressure sprayer (http://www.planetnatural.com/site/hand-sprayer.html) that runs on CO2. Fill it with Methanol, or perhaps something that burns brighter and hose them with it. Pull out one of those click igniters and light them up. Otherwise you have a small portable flame thrower.

[GNAB]

Pick up a can of "Easy Off" oven cleaner and read the ingredients. Comes out in a thick gelatinous spray (not a fine mist) that can be easily aimed. If you can prevent your ego from screaming out your name as you direct a stream towards their faces you should be fairly safe. It is fairly difficult for blind men to identify their prey turned attacker!

[crowmanyclouds]

... For example, everyone carries keys (i know this has been mentioned). Instead of those whimpy little split rings that are on there, replace them with something heavier that wont seperate easily. Attach a small maglite (AA size or AAA). Looks innocent as hell dosnt it? Its just a wad of keys and a flashlight. Now what if you swing it? ...

This is what I carry every day. Just add one of those nylon webbing keychain neck-straps and you've got a slungshot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slungshot).

Mine is 2 and a half feet of welded link chain with a #1 boat snap (http://www.whitworths.com.au/products/43190_lg.jpg) at the end, and a lot of heavy metal keychain doo-dads on another #1 on the other side of my belt, both clipped to D-ring belt keepers. With all the boat snaps clipped to the keyring I've got about a pound and a half of metal on a foot long loop of chain wrapped around my wrist, that's very difficult to take from me.

Unclip the chain hook and I've got a manriki-gusari (http://www.animecastle.com/images/Product/large/MC-2501B.JPG), with a little practice it's fairly easy to catch and trap a thrown punch or extended knife hand.Just a thought but what about carrying a cane with a big ass metal handle, in half a second you could crush a persons skull in with it and canes are not regarded as weapons (unlike knives, pepper spray, home made weapons) anywhere in the world that I know of.Walking sticks and canes are my favorite "improvised" weapons. Almost all sword techniques can be adapted to use with a stick in addition to the traditional techniques for sticks of that length.

My current favs are Cold Steel's polypropylene escrima stick and their knob kerrie, the poly is hard and just a little whippy. Their "City Stick" is exactly what Hirudinea is talking about, 3 feet of fiberglass rod with half a pound+ of steel on the end, in other words a footman's mace.

A standard bent wood cane in the hands of someone who knows how to use it is an amazingly effective weapon. In addition to straight stick techniques there are special techniques which use the hooked end for trapping, and control (hook the arm, step through and behind the opponent into an arm lock, place cane on the opposite shoulder and pull the cane tight against the opponents throat in a choke (a sharp pull can crush the larynx).

Properly sized, the hook allows the cane to be used in the style of a tonfa, adjustable aluminum canes (on left (http://www.feelingood.ca/products/canes_l.jpg)) are particularly well suited for this. The lower segment is easily removed to create a tonfa/escrima stick combo weapon, and can be modified by simply cutting the internal end off at an angle to create a Shaka styled iklwa assegai.

The otherwise unmemorable Sam Peckinpah film "The Killer Elite" has some excellent cane fighting scenes, James Cann was trained in it's use so what you see is a fairly realistic depiction of cane as weapon.

A big problem with some of the more "interesting" ideas in this thread is that in real life they could see you serving more time than the person who attacks you. Yeah, a can of Easy Off will do a lot of damage as an improvised weapon. But you better have a receipt with a time-stamp that's less than an hour old and a dirty oven at home or you could be facing a carrying a deadly weapon/dangerous substance with intent charge.

Hose someone down with gasoline and set them on fire?
You'll be spending the rest of your life in a cage!

If I do serious damage to an attacker with my keys or cane, I can legitimately claim that I was acting in self defense with no intent cause bodily harm.

[beebs111]

I have a serious problem with the filth that resort to robbing another person of their hard earned possessions, for any reason. I have no respect whatsoever for someone who would beat me up, or even possibly kill me for the money that I am carrying at that particular moment.

Generally the thing that people fear the most next to fire, is a high voltage shock.

Though its expressly forbidden by law in my area to even own any kind of electrical weapon, I recently purchased a 1,000,000v stun gun which can be concealed inside a pack of cigarettes. I have not yet decided if I will further flaunt the bay state's laws and carry that bad boy, but I do know it packs one hell of a punch: enough to leave large electrical burns and reduce me to a spasming mess on the ground after a 1 second of electricity.

In the area where I live, it is near impossible to administer lethal force legally, even in your own home. its sad really, the pigs would rather have me killed in my own home than have me kill an intruder. fuck them.

I apologize for my previous ranting, it sometimes gets frustrated. pepper spray requires an F.I.D. card, but is also easily obtained.

My carry weapons of choice are a .177 daisy power line, which achieves around 6" of penetration in a flesh like substance, a roll of quarters secured with scotch tape on both ends, because it would be extremely difficult to establish CCW, and a spring assisted 3.5" knife with the Emerson system for my easy deployment from my right pocket clip.

If there is a particular liquid substance that you would like the blast a foe with at a high velocity, I would recommend constructing a "pepper gun" out of a 12gram CO2 cartridge using bike tire filler.

This will thread to a piece of brass pipe with the right fittings, and the contained material will be housed in this. when the CO2 is released, this material will be expelled at a high velocity.

A piece of saran wrap or something else of that nature could be used to secure the front, and smaller tubes could be used to fire flechettes or other small objects.

++++++++++

Use paragraph breaks, capitalize the beginning of every sentence...and my personal favorite...the letter I is ALWAYS capitalized when used in reference to yourself. :rolleyes:

Oh, and try using a spell-checker (I did it for you). You didn't spell 'lethal' right, yet somehow managed to spell 'flechettes' correctly?

nbk2000

[Isotoxin]

[First, in terms of martial arts, I've found that if you want to humiliate the bastards and still do some minor damage Aikido is one of the better ones. I've seen little old men attacked by 4 guys at once (in demonstration), and just tossed them like rag dolls. It was quite possibly the most absurd thing that I've ever seen... and one of the coolest.

That's because it was rigged either explicitly or implicitly.

The E&W is a very very good place because of the lack of restrictions on speach and the openness to discusion of potent weaponry and explosives and such. However I think in some ways this is a weakness because it encourages people to drift away from reality and into myth from lack of topic restrictions. The E&W is the best place on the net for explosive use and synthesis in part because members here constantly make and test the explosives. However in some other matters there is a tendency for some people to talk up bullshit and what I feel is almost kewlness expecially in regards to fighting.

Just as we would not lend much credence to someone that only speculated about explosives without making and testing them as much as possible(even if they were limited to testing small amounts) we should not lend credence to people that speculate on fighting without them doing much making(aka training) and testing(aka rolling,sparring,competition,actual use in the open enviroment).

Improvised weapons of the sort you would carry on your person or grab from the enviroment are only an addition to a base of fighting skill just as ball bearings are an addition to explosives not the primary and most important component.

A strong base of fighting skill is something that is used by people that fight against other similarly skilled people in an atmosphere that encourages some cooperation(for skill development) but also rigorous competition. Anyone familiar with economics knows that firms in competition tend to improve rapidly in the qualities most suited for profit and a firm protected from this competition may remain solvent but would easily be destroyed should competition come up. We can see such atmosphere in Combat Sports expecially those with some connection to competition that rewards qualities that would be useful both in and out of the ring(ie hard damaging blows, damaging joint locks, chokes or KOs). Contrast this to some competition that rewards light painless blows that serve only to score points.

Some fighting sports that typically have such traits and atmospheres:

brazilian jujitsu - for damaging and painful locks on important body parts that can be seen to do terrific damage occasionally in competition(proof it is not just hearsay), chokes that can be seen to render people unconcious(defenceless) on a regular basis in the training gym itself not to mention competition and lastly and perhaps most importantly skills to cope with the massive weight imbalances that are often seen in fights and positioning ability to strike without much fear of them doing likewise.

judo - chokes(see above), throws(imagine being dropped from 4 feet up in the air or so onto the ground right on your head or back) and other similar skills to BJJ

boxing - top notch cardiovascular abilities, ability to take a punch and remain focused on the attacker, defencing motions and of course very very powerful punches

wrestling - like BJJ but moreso on avoiding the harmful mass imbalance and positioning for striking - also many takedowns as a prelude to groundfighting or conversly the ability to quickly get back on your feet should you be taken down

muay thai - clenchwork allowing you to avoid the attackers punches and strike them at the same time, powerful and long range kicks using the hard bone of the shin not the fragile bones of the foot, knees and elbows to avoid damaging the small bones of the hand

Dog Brothers style stick fighting - stick fighting systems that are tested at full speed unlike most stick fighting that is based solely on somewhat static drills

In short any sport that competes and rewards qualities that work to a true defeat of the opponent rather then arbitrary points and also has plently of sparring/rolling against people that are really resisting and making things as hard as possible for you. This is of course an incomplete list.

For more about this quality a useful sport must have:
http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php?name=Reviews&file=viewarticle&op=newarticle&id=254

None of the above is meant to slam such things and talk of combat psychology, gun combat, ext. The point is when at all possible to test things out - Do So. This is why you should train hard in the gym but should not try to stab people for training purposes. Some aspects of fighting can be practiced with little risk and somewhat little cost while others(ie actually killing people) are very unsuited to testing and one could hardly be blamed for refusal to practice those aspects in a realistic way.

[festergrump]

This is why you should train hard in the gym but should not try to stab people for training purposes.

I don't see why stabbing people for training purposes is a bad idea. In fact, I'd encourage it. Not with a real blade, of course, but anything safe but resembling a blade should be within limits. How about a rubber knife? How about playing that game "KILLER" like what many played on college campuses, except with rubber knives or rolled up newspapers and magazines, but no pistol or bomb likenesses? (a rolled newspaper would make a nice makeshift escrima stick or truncheon, too, etc...)

I seem to remember a thread somewhere about NBK talking briefly about this type of training. Likely it was very long ago.

Anyhow, my whole point in posting was that the best honing of your skills is accomplished this way... in real life, non stop, "get me if you can" + "wherever you can" excercises. (think of Inspector Clouseau's manservant, Cato, and how he was constantly trying to surprise attack his mentor/master :))...

It's the best way to ensure your preparedness equal your skills at any given time, day or night.

[WWII]

The Japanese in WWII actually did this type of training, bayonet training on our American troops who were P.O.W.'s. while the Japanese army were still in basic training. :eek:

The American press were very outraged and reported on this story. I was very outraged when I read about it too.

You can read about it in this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Heroes-U-S-Medal-Honor-Recipients/dp/0425210170/ref=sr_1_13/105-1668718-0578854?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1185224300&sr=1-13

[festergrump]

While I wouldn't trust the American press to report the truth even back then, it does seem like good training...

Get the troops used to the feeling of the bayonette piercing the flesh and organs, maybe even feeling the throb of a heartbeat right down the manlicher stock of the old Arisaka and into the soul, so to speak. :eek: (shudder :().

The japs were (ARE) a determined bunch...

[Smoking]

if you dont like the above or if you cant get any of the above, your going to like this

fire extinguisher(powder ones), look around for smal compact fire extinguishers
the one you find in cars and stuff, you see them going for you reach for your extinguisher and conseal, wait and when there about 10feet away spray em!
you can get away cous you put on a pretty smoke screen and cal the police (they wont be hard to find being white and all)
or you can use the fire extinguisher to beatm up,(they are probably not going far with the dry white stuf in there eyes)

[its important to buy more of these so you can find out how they work,,play around with them]

pluspoints

+you can put on a pretty good smoke screen (and get away)
+you can hit pretty hard
+there trowable
+its got a nasty effect when gotten in eyes and lungs
+its not illegal to carry (so far i know)
+you could mark em

minpoints

-heavy
-not always easy to conseel
-pretty big

(sorry for my lousy english)
and good luck

[Jacks Complete]

Please quit apologizing for your poor English!

If you want a spell checker, download the Firefox in-line spell checker, it will underline in red anything you spell wrongly as you go. It will also catch the whole i/I thing.

As far as an extinguisher goes, I'd go for CO2. A breath of it will shock the system, as there is no oxygen, and you will be well over the 5% threshold for panic, if they get too close it is a frost burn, and there is nothing left as a trace except the cylinder after use. You can, as you say, also hit them with the cylinder, either before or after use.

The CO2 powerlets contain oil, normally, so they would be a bad idea. Of course, it might be the bad idea you are looking for! CO2 gas canisters from paintball guns might also be fun.

[nbk2000]

Pepper Balls, 25 for $60
http://www.avurt.com/c-2-buy-now.aspx?skinid=6

The projectiles are .50 caliber, compared to the .68 of regular paintball, but there are .50 paintball guns and barrel adapters available. :)

Interestingly enough, Avurt bought the company that manufacturers the PAVA projectiles that are used by Pepperball, meaning they now own the sole source of replacement projectiles for the Pepperball system. :p

[Charles Owlen Picket]

Talk with old convicts that made it through the system; they often have startlingly clear perception of how to fuck someone viciously with next to nothing to work with and get away with it.

While I basically agree with both Isotoxin and Festergump's remarks & I believe their logic holds; not everyone can devote the time or has youth on their side for training purposes. Therefore I propose using one's imagination in terms of brains (not bullshit) to be as vicious as possible. I have seen some old guys who I would really NOT want to screw with as you would never see their shit coming. Some people DON'T play by any rules of man or dog.....

I saw a device used for pulling tires off tractors that is essentially a hypodermic. It was a screwdriver-sized hollow steel tube sharpened at an angle like a hypodermic syringe. Stab the tire, the air comes out, etc. That fucking thing would give someone a serious problem when used as a stabbing weapon. I'm told that standard garden implements are generally a problem to deal with when used by a determined individual. A machette used against the legs and arms or a 4 Tyne cultivator used to the face produce results especially when rusty and covered in excrement.

[nbk2000]

From http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2003/01/08/more_ricin.php

I've had some interesting e-mail on the subject, which I thought I'd address here for the curious. One person mentioned the possibility of ricin dissolved in DMSO. I have to say that that's a nasty thought, because DMSO certainly does increase skin permeability. But I don't know how soluble a large peptide like this would be - even in DMSO, which is generally a solvent of last resort in chemistry. And even if you could get some of the protein in there, odds are excellent that it would denature, change its conformation as it went into solution. Most enzymes shift around so much going into solvents like DMSO that they lose their activity completely. Not all of them, though - but I would put ricin in the category of unlikely to survive the transition. It has an important disulfide bond that would probably be labile to oxidation on storage in DMSO as well.

The author seems to have the credentials to know what he's talking about, though only human testing would prove it true or false.

[panzerkampfwagen]

It would probably be a fairly simple ordeal to compress a small amount of ether (diethyl) in a metal canister that could fit inside of a pen. When clicked, the active end could be pressed into the valve and punctured, releasing the gas through the tip of the pen, which should concentrate the gas into a coherent jet. It does not take all that much ether to incapacitate someone, and if you so desired, you could turn it into a (very) miniature flamethrower. Also, an autofire center punch, though a little suspicious, could make a very effective melee weapon, focusing the energy of the blow onto a very small tip and striking twice per hit. It would not be particularly effective against softer areas, but it would wreak havoc on bone, particularly intercostal spaces in the rib cage (just be careful of vital organs unless you are trying to administer a slow and one-of-a-kind death). They are also very, very cheap (usually about a dollar, provided quality is not your concern).

[Arisaka]

I always carry a 5 inch metal drill bit with me.
If i get into a fight than i can punch and scratch at the same time leaving some serious wounds.

And it's not illegal to posses.

[nbk2000]

If your weapon is a drill-bit, you might as well have it loaded up with aluminum and/or magnesium shavings in drilling grease.

That's plausibly deniable, and the metal shavings create hydrogen gas in situ in the wound, promoting anaerobic infections which are very nasty.

[Maldore]

If you want to defend yourself quickly and effectively, I would tell you from experience to use quick incapacitation or cause a good bit of pain, then run away. Poke the eyes (pain and temporary blindness), stomp the top of the foot (crippling, painful, inability to kick), twist/break their fingers (severe pain, inability to punch), strike the nose (pain, bleeding, temporary blindness), strike in the lower abdominal area on the sides of the body* (a.k.a. kidney punch, causes severe pain, can cause crippling), strike the genitals* (extreme pain, possible vomiting, crippling [painful for women also]), motion towards the face then strike the stomach (a.k.a. cheap shot... can cause vomiting, defecation, severe pain, and incapacitation), or hit the long joints if viable (knees, elbows, shoulders... all can cause pain and an extent of physical crippling). After that point, you can chose to inflict greater bodily harm or run away. I suggest running away unless you like dealing with the piggys, "self defense" can land you fines, probation, community service, or even jail time; they can say you used too much force, unwarranted violence, vigilantism, ECT. A quick look at anatomy and physiology can show you some "soft spots" that are easy to hit and can easily and effectively incapacitate your opponent. Be mean, nasty, vicious... bite, scratch, gouge, do whatever you can to get away, and remember, the two worst possible places to be are on your back or your stomach (back being the worst).

*The adrenal gland/cortex rests on top of the kidneys, though a kidney punch is often painful and crippling, it can cause a temporary adrenaline rush in an opponent.

*Striking the testicles should only be used as a last resort or as defense against rape. Striking the testicles can cause a release of testosterone and is known to cause adrenaline rushes. Striking the testicles will cause someone to become unable to hold an erection (generally) and can help in a rape situation.

-Fighting fair is essentially giving your opponent an advantage, because I'll be damned if someone trying to mug you is going to "fight fair".

-By the way, I "was" a self defence teacher, tournament martial artist, and wrestler before damaging one of my legs, this isn't entirely expert advice, but I consider myself somewhat knowlegeable.

[Alexires]

and remember, the two worst possible places to be are on your back or your stomach (back being the worst).....

-By the way, I "was" a self defence teacher, tournament martial artist, and wrestler before damaging one of my legs, this isn't entirely expert advice, but I consider myself somewhat knowlegeable.


Right. I'm glad for that little disclaimer.

So anyway, who wants to be on their stomach in a fight?

Fuck that.

If you are on your stomach, you can't use your legs to attack your opponent, you can't see jack shit, and you leave your spine/neck/back of head/kidneys open for some serious abuse. Have you ever watched UFC my friend? While it isn't real world at all, how many people do you see going onto their stomachs? If they do, how long do they last?

Go to your back. At least you can see your enemy, kick out if need be to keep him/them at bay and if they come in for some ground fighting, then you can get them into the guard and wait them out until they are too fucked to do anything, then embrace them with the fist of Adonis (smash shit out of them). If there are multiple attackers, and you end up on the ground, you are fucked. Absolutely. No questions asked.

Now, this thread can be taken two ways. Are we harming attackers to get them to retreat and leave us in (one) peace, or are we trying to harm them, possibly fatally. I won't bother talking about trying to hurt them enough to retreat, because that is pointless (except in certain circumstances, they will either come back later, or just get enraged).

I would think that if we are trying to do some real harm, we need to analyse why the body works. Oxygen and food are they two main ones. We aren't going to fight long enough that they starve, so lets go with oxygen. Either cut off their flow of oxygen (gas them, crush their windpipe, wind them, choke them, etc) or make them bleed....alot.

For bleeding, trying to hit an artery (or a vein for that matter) is a little difficult. In the heat of a fight, unless you practice studiously in pinpoint attacks, you will have a very hard time hitting these points (except the neck). I would personally use an instrument that punctures and doesn't allow the flesh to fall back and stop the bleeding. Either stab them with a knife and twist it before pulling it out, or stab them with something like an oversized hypodermic syringe.

Of course, if you get busted with a massive hypodermic syringe, that is going to be a little obvious that you are out to do "bad" things....

If you are aching to carry something to protect yourself, and it needs to be gnarly, an idea might be a cane.

Yes, I know they are cliche, but think about it. A long steel tube, sharpened diagonally to a point at the end (like a big hypodermic syringe) and this point is hidden in a hard plastic end cap to look like those old folks ones. If you slam someone with that hard enough, it will cut through the rubber and impale them, and that would be nasty. Otherwise, it can be used a bashing tool, or something to put leverage on a joint/neck/limb/etc.

[Maldore]

It was a little late when I posted that reply, I did mean stomach being the worst lol. Sorry, I got a little tired and made a typo, ty for the correction though Alexires. Personaly I favor inflicting sufficent pain then making an escape, and it's pretty easy to stomp on someone's foot then run off, and if you do it with sufficent force, it will crush the bones, makining them unable to persue (assuming you aren't so unlucky your opponent just happens to be wearing metal toed shoes...). They could come back, yeah, but impaling someone with a piece of metal on a street is a good way to get 20+ years in prison... fuck that imo lol

[Vitalis]

If the person is attacking you, you have the right to impale someone with a piece of metal. Attackers deserve no mercy, killing them would be best, you would be preventing them from attacking someone else.

[Defendu]

assuming you aren't so unlucky your opponent just happens to be wearing metal toed shoes...

Kicking downwards on the shin/instep area is a a lot easier than trying to stomp on toes in the middle of a fight.

...cause a good bit of pain...pain and temporary blindness...crippling, painful, inability to kick...severe pain...pain...pain...pain...painful for women also

This "poke them in the eyes"/"just kick him in the nuts" crap all assumes your opponent is not so full of adrenaline that he/they don't notice pain until after the fight.

[Vitalis]

Exactly why you should inflict a fatal blow to your attacker. Remember, this person is attacking you, you have to stop the attack by any means necessary.

[Alexires]

Vitalis and Defendu - That was the theory I was working on. Carrying around something that looks like a weapon, or can be considered a weapon is stupid unless you are expecting with fair certainty to be attacked, but if you must carry something, don't be half assed.

By attacking you, they have given up the right to be considered human, and should be treated as an animal, and put down or beaten off as such.

As I said in my previous post, harming attackers is a little ambivilent. If you are going to hurt them badly, you need to do it properly.... none of this incapacitating bullshit...

[nbk2000]

The heel stomp only works well if you happen to be wearing boots at the time. A soft-soled tennis shoe would still hurt if it's a man doing the stomping, but hard-heeled boots would be much more likely to break bones, and without hurting your own foot in the process.

[Maldore]

All that I am trying to get across is a situation of self defense that won't land you years in prison. I am trying to articulate a situation of "if you were attacked on the street", trying to consider cars, people, residential buildings, ECT.

Using a sharp/blunted weapon on the street isn't a particularly wise idea in my opinion. In the idea of a blunted object, you can get blood on your person; even if you hit them in the body (anything that is not entirely rounded or made from metal will often rip skin if you end up grazing your opponent with the end of the object or striking them it the head).

In the instance of using a sharpened metal pole to "impale" your attacker, you're likely get a blood spray/spatter depending on where you hit. You will almost definitely get blood on your hands, and you will be in an awfully awkward position carrying an inconspicuous object covered in blood (newspaper with a pipe inside).

On a similar note, unless you are wearing gloves of some kind, your fingerprints are going to be allover your weapon if you chose to discard it. A previous example of a pole sharpened to a point like a "hypodermic syringe" would be insane unless you premeditated the entire incident, in which it would not be defense at all, but first degree murder.

In the incident of a street attack, you stab someone with this pole, you have a dead guy in an alley clutching an object obviously crafted to be used as a weapon covered in latent prints, and you’re stumbling back onto the sidewalk with blood on your person, your heart rate and breathing up, and likely shaking from shock/adrenaline.

Don't get me wrong, people have been listing off great ways of killing an attacker, but it is not practical in a situation of being mugged/jumped.

*Edited and reposted to include paragraph breaks 10/18/07*

[Vitalis]

I think you are going way too easy on this fictional attacker. If carrying a "weapon" that is not illegal to carry, why not use it? The scumbag doesn't deserve to live.

If the Police question you, you can explain that the attacker was trying to KILL you and you defended yourself.

[Alexires]

I understand what you are saying Maldore, I said it in my last post. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I think that carrying any remotely obvious weapon around "just in case" is a stupid idea.

But the title of this thread isn't "how to minimally harm a mugger who has a wife and children to feed so we need to be nice", the title of this thread is "easy ways to harm an attacker". If you go the the beginning of this thread (it's an archive) then you will see the context that this is based upon.

Any further discussion I would like to take to PM'ing, Maldore, so as not to clog the thread.

Expanding on NBK's idea of boots, some motorcyclists screw or bolt metal plates to the bottom of their boots so that when they corner, they can put their foot on the ground for whatever reason, not to mention it looks kind of cool...

Why not do that? Besides walking (normally), I don't think that humans use the heel of their foot for anything. Running should be on the toes, or at least the middle of the foot, fighting should be on the toes. Perhaps it would be feasible to affix a small metal raised bit to the heel of the boot. Not enough to drastically effect walking, but even a couple of millimetres would be enough to be used in combat.

Comes in use for stomping peoples feet/legs/heads and also doubles as a cool pyrotechnic show at night if you ride a motorbike *wink*.

[Jacks Complete]

Jesus guys! Don't come to the UK. You'll be looking at 5 years at the minimum for vigilante-ism. The cops and some courts hate self-defence, too.

Anything you want to use here has to be "immediate" - you can pick up a bottle after the attack has started, but not before. It also has to be "proportionate" - no shooting the knifeman. Oh, and anything the police can prove to a court you are carrying for use in defence (possibly including a vest) is an "offensive weapon" (and there is, in law, no such thing as a defensive weapon. The law was changed after the courts held that an extendable baton could be freely carried. They banned those within about 3 months of the case!)

In the UK, you must use absolute stealth and have 100% deniability at the time (no right to silence here!) or you will get arrested. Heck, you probably will anyway. If you run, then the mugger can make up any shit he wants, and you'll have the police after you regardless. Oh, and there is CCTV nearly everywhere, but that only helps the police lock up everyone they can find. They'll lose the tapes before the court date, generally.

Avoid trouble at all costs. If trouble finds you, talk your way out. If you are going to get a kicking, you might be well taking it, and holding on to the name and face, and settling up on your terms much later on. Or, if it's feasible, twat him, put the boot in at the same time, then leave. Don't put the boot in afterwards, even just a few seconds later, or you will go down if you get caught.

In the end, as long as you survive, you can hunt them down later on.

[nbk2000]

That is such a pathetic way of thinking that they've instilled into what was once a proud people!

"Take the beating."

:mad:

This is what jews do to any country they get their claws into...emasculate their men.

[Hinckleyforpresident]

Just do what I do.... Carry knives.

I always carry two throwing knives in my boots and a butterfly knife in my pocket. They should take care of most trouble.

And if they pull a gun on me, hey I won't fight back. I would rather know I will live another day then fight back against a gun.

Knives are not illegal, nor do they require any licensing. You can even say "I was afraid I would get mugged, so I was armed." So long as your life is in danger, self defense covers you. Otherwise (if your not going to get hurt), weapons shouldn't be used at all to save the legal hassle.

Just my five cents.

[nbk2000]

Throwing knives?

The probability of hitting an attacker, let alone disabling them with one, is minute. And, you have now thrown away a knife, and given it to your attacker and/or his previously unarmed buddy.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

One of the issues I have with this discussion is the continual "what if" proposal. Each incident of interpersonal violence is so unique that extrapolation and generalization is impossible and/or dangerous.

We see that differing areas of both the USA & other countries have laws so limiting to an individual's right of self defense that to offer a predetermined self-defense modality (weapon designed as a weapon) could be legally problematic. But who the fuck cares when you may get hurt? Only those who have something to loose (everyone has their freedom).

My point being that if someone threatens your health and well being, he needs to go down for real. BUT, if you know the laws of your land you MAY really need to alter your modality of defense.
[Example] In the UK to go about with a damn kitchen knife is a serious issue in itself. Compare Detroit or L.A. to someplace like Casper, etc.

Thus the uniqueness of both the situation and the laws of the land make preplanned defense almost a moot point from a generalized perspective.

[Alexires]

Charles - True, but perhaps this thread is for expanding peoples mindset towards self defence?

No, we can't cover every scenario, and no, the law may not be on our side, but someone might post an idea that another forumite reads and says to himself "Shit, that's a good idea, and totally legal where I am." Thinking outside the box is probably the point now. Carrying knives and guns are obvious, but perhaps wearing finger armour isn't, or changing your fashion to suit the situation might work.

That's what I figure about this thread, anyway.

Hinckley - As I've said before, and those better than I have said before me, carrying a weapon (like knives) are not a boasting thing. Personally (if I were carrying a knife), I would carry it hidden, until the last moment.

If you find you cannot talk your way out of a situation, and you fear that you really are in the shit, you then have an ace in the hole. Take them down when they come in with fists, before they have a chance to prepare or get something bigger. If you pull your knife out, you may scare them away.... On the other hand, you may not, and they now know you have a knife and respond appropriately.

Also, if you are carrying something, I think that comes under the category of "premeditated" and suddenly self-defence becomes murder....

Jacks - I'm so sorry. The situation in the UK is really a fuck up. Move the fuck somewhere else dude. You are letting the bitch state bring you down.

[-=HeX=-]

Sorry to commit the vile act of necromancy to this thread but I have an idea that I think worthy of posting.

The first idea is my main one. I read here that DCM (Dichloromethane) can knock out a grown man in 20 seconds. I believe, therefore, that spraying the dumb fuck in the face with DCM may have a good knockdown effect. It however may kill. I believe nbk may have mentioned it in the MCX Thread. DCM is available as OTC paint stripper. The sprayer can be one of those refillable sprayguns people sometimes use to keep cool. Fill the spraygun with DCM and if mugged, spray them in the kisser and run like fuck.

The ether idea is to have an electronically fired sleeve cannon (See my thread on magicians arsenal) but use a clothespin switch, with 2 feet of fishing line attached to a fake cell phone as the trigger line. To use, simply throw the phone towards them and boom. Big jet of flame engulfs them while you run away.

Both ideas are fairly simple but I do like to apply the KISS principle to ensure they work.

[Telkor]

Easy way to make a really effective weapon:

First, you need an extendable baton. Make sure it only consists of hardened steel, no lead.

Boil top part in water for some minutes to remove the paint and avoid splitting during the next step.

Sharpen the ball on the top to form a spearhead.
Make some notches on the long side and sharpen the edges.

The grinding will take a couple of hours, but it's worth the trouble, as it gives you an effective weapon not bigger than a mobile phone when contracted.


No matter if you hit your foe with the long side or stab with the top, he'll definitely be unable to harm you any more.

Needless to say, only use it for self-defence, as it will certainly cause some nasty wounds.

[mike-hunt]

A handy self defense weapon can be simple set of keys used like brass knuckles to slash and stab. Handy when returning to your car in rough neighbor hoods .

This device http://www.selfdefenseproducts.com/Wild-Kat-Keychain-p-1-c-308.html
A hard plastic cat or dog shaped version of the brass knuckles looks innocent and could be very effective in the rite hands also good in places where knifes and other weapons are illegal.

The site is also worth a look if your interested in other self defense weapons

[Telkor]

PS:

Wehen you make such an expanding sword, use an automatic extending baton with a spring (this version might be forbidden in some countries, though).

These are much more useful.

[Alexires]

Yeah, pity about that Telkor: Places like Aus and the UK such a thing would be very illegal. You might as well just carry an unregistered pistol around, it is basically the same thing.

I've always been cynical of people putting keys in their knuckles and punching other people. I would prefer to hold the key in between my thumb and my fist (like forming a fist with the thumb on top) and stabbing to the eyes or other soft spots. Of course this is just as effective with a finger, or with the knuckles of your finger. That and the keys will fuck up your hands, which could be distracting in a fight not to mention bad if the scum bag has Hepatitis or HIV or some shit like that.

If someone scratched me with a key when I was trying to mug them, I would be pissed off. I would fuck them up. What you want is something that is disabling on the first hit, or will at least make them think "Fuck, I don't want to do that again".

Things like having metal inserts in your jacket because you "ride a motorbike" or having metal plates on the side of your boots for the same reason.

[Telkor]

Yeah, pity about that Telkor: Places like Aus and the UK such a thing would be very illegal. You might as well just carry an unregistered pistol around, it is basically the same thing.


True, that really sucks.

In Germany, you may even be arrested for wearing a kevlar vest during a demonstration, because of "passive armament".

That's absurd. One the one hand, the state neglects the citizens to defend themselves, on the other hand, the penalty for grievous bodily harm ist ridiculously low.

Some weeks ago, a couple of youth beat somebody to coma. "Just for fun".
Their penalty: Some social work. Their victim will never be able to walk again.

I tell ya, if such little bastards cross my way, the'll certainly never do any social work.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

The "key's in your fist thing" is a poor idea. I was going to wade in here and the first thing I typed sounded mean & like I was putting people down so I deleted it......My intention is NOT to "put someone down" or hurt someone's feelings. That's childish & unproductive. But a lot of the material are not workable techniques & this is a serious subject.

Here is a simple test that you can do at home to determine if you have a workable technique...... It is also a VERY good determinate of productive use of impact weapons.

Punch (or strike) an inflated tire with the technique or object as hard as you possibly can.

IF your hand gets injured while holding the object.....you are going to have one big problem with a human skull.... "But I'm going to strike other softer areas", or "I'm carefully going to control my grasp" doesn't cut it when you can barely breath because the adrenaline is shooting out your ears and you think you're going to vomit from fear, anger, excitement, etc. If the "club" or blunt object bounces back and knocks you in the hand (like nunchakus or similar; a chain-type free floating kinetic weapon) then that will happen when you REALLY don't want it to......

If the fucking weapon allows you to "wail on an inflated tire until you tire".....then you have a weapon that MAY function as planned.


The "tire-trick" was actually used by a federal court test case many years ago as an example of effective striking ability.

The human body is subject to various influences due to our standing on two legs and the majority of our weight being unequally distributed. Our "hard spots & soft spots" are also widely distributed. The opponent RARELY just stands there. They move. Thus the concept that you will continually strike a "soft" area of the body is not to be depended upon due to the unpredictable way the body can move from pain response or impact. Conceptually, the most widely available striking methodology is generally the most successful due to this logical foundation of anatomy and movement mechanics.

The first weapon man may have used was the rock. The second being the club and third being the spear. There are solid foundational reasons for this beyond the advancement in technology and tool usage.

[Jacks Complete]

Good post, C.

I'd second that, and also point out that getting your keys lined up "just so" is likely to take far too long, and those pointy bits are likely to end up embedded in your hand.

You could use something like a kubaton (not entirely sure of the spelling) which is essentially a hard plastic or aluminium rod about 10 to 15mm in diameter, designed to simply allow you to form a more solid fist around it. It sits on your keys, and you can then use your keys as a flail, and the other (rounded) end as a pressure point stabbing weapon. It acts a bit like a roll of pennies.

Sadly, I think even these have been outlawed now (in the UK), as I've not seen any for a good few years, when 10 years ago everyone seemed to have one.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-433649/Jump-shout-beat-street-crime.html Found this, worth a read for the laugh.

[Hirudinea]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...eet-crime.html Found this, worth a read for the laugh.

Pathetic! But liberals have no idea what the real world is like so hardly suprising.

You could use something like a kubaton (not entirely sure of the spelling) which is essentially a hard plastic or aluminium rod about 10 to 15mm in diameter... It acts a bit like a roll of pennies.

It wouldn't suprise me if kubatons are illegal in Canada now, but why not just use a roll of pennies, I don't think its illegal yet to carry a roll of pennies and if your concerned after using a roll, just unroll them and throw the wrapper away. (Man what a world where victims have to be more fearful about arming themselves than criminals!)

[Charles Owlen Picket]

Related material: One expression that always makes me laugh is "muscle memory". Muscles don't remember shit. The human brain remembers things. Therefore repetitive movement is Coordinative Training for the mind to signal muscle contractions at a particular rate and intensity. The "Theory" behind "forms" or "Kata" martial arts training is that the body will eventually learn to preform a movement correctly but since movement in response to attack would be of a virtually infinite variety, it's utility is basically one of a beginning exercise for those, completely unfamiliar with those movements (children) and men who are old and need the movement to maintain health. It is extremely limited as a martial art.


(I don't remember if I ever mentioned this before)
The term "strapped" meaning to be carrying a weapon; comes from prison wherein those who are confined to a wheelchair are generally the repository for weapons since the chair was metal (wand-ing was useless) and tough to search the whole thing. The guy in the wheelchair would "strap" a piece of metal to the chair in a manner to be useful to another individual to harm a third party.

Box-cutters chip and break when used as weapons! They ride over buttons and zippers (often breaking) and are easy to snap when REALLY tearing into someone. Of course if you LET someone write their name on you with the fucking thing, you will get hurt but they are not a quality item. As a small, hand-held item, a sharpened bottle opener might be better.

Stabbing someone in the bladder or lower intestinal tract can be a winner every-time! Small knives when used in the standard fashion against the ribs, heart/lungs generally produce non-fatal, less problematic wounds....but not so with even a 3-4" puncture in the bladder, lower intestinal tract, crotch, etc.

[Alexires]

Well. That is the biggest crock of shit I have ever heard.

I find it quite amusing that people tote "gun control" as being the solution to all criminal activity, but here we have one of the most gun controlling nazi states in the world that have had a 10% increase in gun crime. *Dies laughing* The Irony Gods are laughing their asses off.

The gall of some of these politicians is unbelievable. Almost makes me wish someone would start to beat someone in front of them and see what they do.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

I'm actually not sure who documented it but one of the more commercial "training facilities" like "Gunsite" or "Thunder Ranch" was asked to document a text of a contextual "battle" between a gun & knife. * It actually could be a third facility - as I don't have the material in front of me. I believe a guy named Chapman was involved as was a doctoral Journal.

Participants were to have the weapons concealed and one was a "Z-Knife" (a rubber, weighted knife with some markable material on the blade and tip) and the other was a firearm with wax bullets. Contestants were placed at different distances apart. Both "weapons" were concealed.

It took the length of 20 feet before the gun-man could "kill" the opponent before the "knife-man" could not push that rubber knife up his guts. The conclusions were submitted to the DoJ and studied for some time.

The complexities of drawing the weapon and centering it on target while squeezing the trigger were too slow to be accomplished before the opponent who would only have to advance, draw the weapon, "kill".... could be overcome. The need for wax bullets became obvious as the only thing that counted were hits and not some noise.... which could be made pretty damn fast but the actual hit was not on target.

This issue is actually one of the prime reasons for a great deal of alteration in law enforcement training and even though (TTBoMK) was done about 1987; it's still being studied. The amount of reliance on a firearm without training on speed/accuracy & follow through to minimize "death from a dead man" was pretty astounding. Accurate case histories indicate that the complexities involved are far too numerous to be met with any one "style" of training.

[Shark500]

Just punch the attacker in the throat.

They can't think about hurting you when they just received a blast to the trachea.

Gasping for air, they are putty in your hands.
Get him into position to snap his neck and hold him hostage over the others.

Standing behind the now choking attacker place your forearm across his neck, re grab the other forearm, and place the palm of the other hand at the bast of his head.
Give a nice firm kick to the back of the knee and drag him away.
Turn the bone forearm into the trachea to increase the pain.
give warning to the other assailants.

Make them stay put and get to an area where you are sure to get away or where there are witnesses. NEVER LET GO OF THE ATTACKER!

The second you loose the upper hand they'll get you.

If they attack anyway then snap the neck.
This is done by maintaining the hold, kicking in one of their knees and dropping to your stomach.
They should be on their back, in front of you, and their neck dislocated.

But yeah.. aim for the throat. quickest way to get your way in and out.

[joffe]

Just punch the attacker in the throat.

I beg to differ. In my opinion the throat is a pisspoor target. Of course, if you're lucky enough to hit the guy in the throat, he'll probably be more concerned with trying to breathe instead of hurting you (and you might end up with a murder charge, but that's another story).

If you place your fist against your throat, you'll probably notice that the fist just about covers the throat area. You will then have to make a near perfect hit for the strike to be effective. Strike too low and you might damage your fingers at the second joints. Strike too high and you might hurt your fingers when you hit his jaw.

Adding to that, your opponent might even have some martial arts training - even a novice boxer knows how to keep the chin down.

Finally, it's bloody hard to hit the throat area if your opponent isn't standing completely still.

[Cobalt.45]

If they attack anyway then snap the neck. This is done by maintaining the hold, kicking in one of their knees and dropping to your stomach.Not at the price of your life!

By ending up atop a dead assailant- on your stomach- you have in essence signed your own death warrant.

The idea that you can "hold him hostage over the others" assumes the "others" give two shits about their now incapacitated partner- not too likely in a life-or-death situation.

If you sucker punch an attacker with assistants, your next move had better be hauling ass!

[Shark500]

You will then have to make a near perfect hit for the strike to be effective.

You don't have to use your whole fist.
Through experimentation you will find that any trauma to this area is exceedingly painful.

The obvious choice is to haul ass.

As for killing one of them?
If you are sure your life is about to be extinguished, i'd like to take one of them with me.

Or just never travel alone and/or in areas where these types are present at night.

There's no easy way to harm someone in any situation without harming yourself using mace, acid, etc because you are not immune. If you have to be in these areas I suggest a knife proof vest, a leather jacket [to protect the arms from slashes of the brachial artery], and some self defense classes.

On that note, knowing the location of the arteries with the highest volume of blood flow [brachial, femoral, etc] and a small sharp knife can be the best tools for close quarters fighting against a single attacker.

If you don't know the individual, you are probably not going to be a suspect.
He'll die alone and become another statistic.

[Cobalt.45]

There's much to recommend a razor. Unless killing is the only option, a slash from the naval to the forehead with a razor that'll lay the flesh open- with profuse bleeding after a few seconds- will deter all but the most determined attacker. Especially if they don't realize they're only slashed and not gutted.

By the time they realize they're gonna live, you're long gone.

Killing is just such a legally troubling thing to commit, ya know? Even manslaughter will totally fuck up your day. Better, IMO, to use only that force that's necessary to make a getaway. Retribution, if desired, can come later at your leisure.

If killing's needed, the same razor across the throat will suffice. Stabbing is just too damn iffy for my taste, as far as hitting arteries, etc.

[joffe]

There's no question that the throat is an excellent target - if you can get to it. You might slightly improve your odds by experimenting with all sorts of hand configurations. But unless your opponent is smaller than you and exposes his throat when he is looking up at you, the target area is simply too small and well protected by bony areas. If your opponent is taller than you (they usually are), he will look down on you and instinctively lower his chin.

So without some elaborate set up move to make him expose the throat area, a punch to the throat, in my opinion, is simply not very practical. And as a technique, it's probably only useful as a first move or preemtive strike. When the fight has begun, your opponent will move too much for you to be able to hit the throat.

Anyway, there are far better targets out there, so why waste time on a technique that might or might not work and with the potential of injuring your hand? If Mike Tyson can break a finger or two in a fight, then so can you.

[Shark500]

IMHO, if he's still alive, he can identify you and you know there's a scumbag lawyer out there who will take his case and legally mug you in ways you can only imagine.

Attempted murder is a horrible charge to get pinned with.

I don't want anyone's blood on my hands as the next much as the next guy but if it comes down to you or him, you know who you're going to pick.

Most likely he'll be pinning you against a wall, arms extended, with a knife or something up to your throat. here's what you should do if you know he's not going to leave you in one piece:

First ask him what his mother would think of him right now. this will distract him for a second [muggers are human]

Then In that instant, secure the hand with the knife and send 2 knuckles into his trachea.

As his arm goes limp, grab the hand holding the knife and direct his knife into him.

if anyone asks, he stabbed himself.

That's my plan anyway but I have a good 6 years of martial arts training.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, no witnesses, no problem.;)

[joffe]

Wow!
IMHO, if he's still alive, he can identify you and you know there's a scumbag lawyer out there who will take his case and legally mug you in ways you can only imagine.

Wonder what the District Attorney will do when they try to pin a murder charge on you. But not being an American I must profess a certain ignorance towards your judicial system.
But I know that in several States, a criminal will forfeit the right to sue you if he gets hurt during any criminal activities against you.

Attempted murder is a horrible charge to get pinned with.

Murder is probably worse.

I don't want anyone's blood on my hands as the next much as the next guy but if it comes down to you or him, you know who you're going to pick.

At last we agree on something.

Most likely he'll be pinning you against a wall, arms extended, with a knife or something up to your throat. here's what you should do if you know he's not going to leave you in one piece:

First ask him what his mother would think of him right now. this will distract him for a second [muggers are human]

Then In that instant, secure the hand with the knife and send 2 knuckles into his trachea.

As his arm goes limp, grab the hand holding the knife and direct his knife into him.

Or he may hold one arm around you while the knife is pointed at your guts or one of several other tactics he may employ.

I'm sure references to his mother will really turn him off guard. If that doesn't work, try "Look behind you!"

You don't describe how you intend to immobilize his knife hand. I'm interested in learning how you plan to that. Because after you've crushed his trachea, and the BG knows he's going to die in a couple of minutes, he might just be so pissed off that he decides to take you with him.

if anyone asks, he stabbed himself.

I'm sure the District Attorney and the Jury will believe you.

That's my plan anyway but I have a good 6 years of martial arts training.

In my opinion your plan has certain flaws. Personally I have a good 30 years + of martial arts training which includes karate, judo, boxing and 5 years of military combatives in a crack Infantry Regiment. Oh, and yes, 4 years as a doorman in a couple of really crummy joints.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, no witnesses, no problem.

You definitely need to read a couple of books about crimescene investigation and forensic science.

[-=HeX=-]

Here is a idea I am paraphrasing from charles. Extend hands with palms facing outward at his shoulder height saying calm down and I am sorry repeatedly. Then once you are close enough, stomp foot into instep, shove over. Then follow thru with boot to head repeatedly.

If he gets back up and hobbles off, a solid kick to the side of the knee (As seen on episode one of breaking bad) should take him down, then kick to face while other foot holds his leg on ground. Do not hesitate to dispatch him.

I find razors a bad weapon because they only make shallow, clean cuts which do not bleed much unless you open an artery. A stab and then twist the blade 90 degrees works much better. Then the wound stays open and gushes blood, especially if the stab is to the upper torso.

[joffe]

That sounds a lot better - and if you want to kill your attacker, you'll probably succeed. If you don't plan on killing him, don't kick him repeatedly in the head or even once for that matter.

A stab and then twist the blade 90 degrees works much better. Then the wound stays open and gushes blood, especially if the stab is to the upper torso.

You'll find it very difficult to twist a blade in the upper torso. The blade has a tendency to get really stuck in the ribcage if you try that.

[Shark500]

SHIT.

I typed this long reply and the page refreshed and I lost it.

Pretty much my point was that in America, it's considered self defense and that there would be very little evidence to even suggest pinning it on you but you should be ok regardless.

Murder is wrong but so is letting some thug kill you and in this context, your life has considerably more value.

Also, can't beat a good shin kick.

Thanks

[joffe]

What you need to do is to hire a good criminal lawyer on a retainer and have him explain to you how your State's Criminal Code is enforced regarding situations like you describe. I'll bet you're going to be surprised.

Also, can't beat a good shin kick.

A good shin kick is often quite effective, but not necessarily so if your opponent is on drugs, or is so psyched up as to be quite invulnerable to pain.

[-=HeX=-]

Whenever I have 'problems' with idiots I normally use the boot to instep then push over method to get them down, then stomp on their stomach or testes to either wind them or cause such immobilising pain to allow me to remove myself from the situation.

You get them down, make sure they stay there for a while, and effect your egress. Also, I discovered a small spray bottle full of tabasco hot sauce will drop anyone and have tried other irritants on occasion.

An amazing distraction is a cigarette packet with a fused charge, ignited by a matchbook pull igniter. Three grams of magnesium flash and they will not see you. *boom* Where the Fuck is he? Dragons eggs are a better filler than flash.

[Defendu]

If they attack anyway then snap the neck.
This is done by maintaining the hold, kicking in one of their knees and dropping to your stomach.
They should be on their back, in front of you, and their neck dislocated

That's not needed to break a human neck, and it;s liable to injure you as bad as your victim.

According to Practical Unarmed Combat by Moshe Feldenkrais, a neck break can be performed form a rear strangle by dropping into a deep squat.

Practical Unarmed Combat can be downloaded here:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/7402351/Practical-Unarmed-Combat-by-Moshe-Feldenkrais

If you have two or more guys trying to hurt you, they're not going to stand by while you grab and strangle one like in the movies. If you grab one or get tangled up in grappling, it'll only take one second for another to take your back.
For a way of dealing with multiple opponents that involves no grappling, see section 4 of the SOE silent killing syllabus, and learn to run faster:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/5621616/SOE-Silent-Killing-Course


Back to the issue of weapons:
Here are a few patents for various hand to hand combat weapons:
http://kilogulf59.proboards80.com/index.cgi?board=books&action=display&thread=440

"Patents by Bernard Cosneck:
Design for an Arm Weapon:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=2q5zAAAAEBAJ
(Note: This may be Cosneck's "Armette" weapon as mentioned roughly half way down the page in this CQB Services article: William Ewart Fairbairn: The Legendary Instructor.)

Weapon:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=ISJ-AAAAEBAJ

What appears to be a fastener that could be used on the above weapons:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=4udbAAAAEBAJ

Dermot O'Neill's Protective Wristband:
http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT3373445

Patents by W.E. Fairbairn:
Dagger:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=c5RxAAAAEBAJ

Scabbard:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=ZxNxAAAAEBAJ

Clemens Knee Bayonet:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=uslfAAAAEBAJ "

An actual prototype of the protective wristband is pictured at the bottom of this articles in Fight Times:
http://www.fighttimes.com/magazine/magazine.asp?article=506

Blueprints and documents on the Armette weapon as designed by Bernard Cosneck are sold online:
http://www.usmilitaryknives.com/Documents.htm
(Keyword search the word armette.)