Flame colors

[THErAPIST]

OK. I once saw a site that told how to make agreat many piss easy flame colors for various compositions by adding simply found things. I can't seem to find this site again and I was hoping someone knew of a couple things that may help me. I know that copper has a purplish flame when burnt. I know that if I want a red flame for things I can tear appart a road flare and extract the SrNO3. And I know that Al and Mg make a pretty bright white. What I can't remember though is what easy sort of thing makes a blue or a green. I know that I can make actual flames with methyl alcohol and boric acid but thats not what I want (all though I plan on making a green fireball or two soon). I know that this has probably been covered before but I dont want to buy chemicals. I want to know what things I can find locally (in my town) that can be used to produce different colors. If locally isn't gonna happen then a chemical that would be cheaper than others would work because i'll simply buy that off of Ebay. Thanks for any info

[peterthesmart]

If i remember correctly, I think titanium makes a blue color when burnt. Copper Carbonate also makes a blue color in certain formulas I believe.

[irish]

copper compounds and chlorine (chlorate perchlorate etc.) give blue, barium compounds will give a green.
You will find that Carbonates give a washy pale colour.
Do a search on this site and google the rec.pyrotecnics arcives (sp) there are a lot of formulas for what you want.

[Sparky]

You probably could have found what you are looking for by searching but I like writing about pyrotechnics so: Copper does not have a purplish flame when burnt. You are probably thinking of potassium, and the purple given by potassium is quite weak. Hence a mixture of copper chloride blue and strontium (chloride) red are used for purple. Copper emits green, and copper chloride is used blue. Since copper chloride (I think copper copper (I) and (II) chloride) are both quite hygroscopic they are made in situe in the flame envelope. Copper is generally not used for green, instead barium is used.

Boron also emits green but is ot commonly used. Elemental boron is too expensive to use in most compositions. Boric acid is useful to add to methyl alcohol to methyl borate which burns on it's own with a nice green.

I have never heard of titanium being used to create blue flames and I know metallic titanium deffinetly does not burn blue.

I would go on but it's getting late, and when I get tired I begin to spew nonsense and nobody wants to read that. If you are looking for pyrotechnic compositions to make flame colors as in stars or lances and such then I suggest you search google for Wouter Visser's page which has a composition database, the PFP database and through the rec.pyrotechnics archive in google groups. I'm sorry to say this but any piss easy formulas you found are likely to be entirely fake (ex. claim burning copper metal produces purple) or give really poor colors. Good colors are not all that hard to make once you have the ingredients but otherwise it will be very difficult. It is definetely worth buying the ingredients instead of trying to extract or make them.

[THErAPIST]

Actually I dont remember much of of the page I saw that one time. The methyl alcohol/ boric acid came from here and I've thrown large amounts of copper wiring into bonfires before which makes a weak but pretty noticible flame. The reason I believed the copper making purple color when I saw it was because of the copper I've thrown in fires. I knew copper chlorides made flame colors but those are hard for me to get unless I know I need them many weeks in advance. As I still to this time know nothing at all about methyl borate, if I let the alcohol evaporate would I get a crystaline substance that would burn green much like SrNO3 burns red? Or does it only burn green when the methyl/ boric is mixed and still a liquid? I ask all of this because I would like to make stars other than white and red which get boring after a while. I usually would have searched as I have learned to do (the hard way), but the forums seem kind of dead lately and I figured I'd put something up that people could reply to. Hey atleast I didn't ask what APAN was ya know? ;)

[a_bab]

IIRC it was Brainfever site. Ask him for details.

[Arthis]

I found that into my archives:

-----------------------
Violet: Potassium
(e.g. Nitrate de potassium or Chlorate de potassium )

Blue: Copper (CuCl, CuSO4) or zinc (powdered)

Green: baryum (nitrate, BaCl, chlorate )

Yellow: Sodium (oxalate, nitrate, oxyd)

Orange: Calcium (nitrate)

Red: strontium (nitrate, hydroxyde, chlorure, carbonate, oxyde)

White: magnesium, aluminium (powered)

Silvered: titane, aluminium (powered)
-------------------------

Aluminium would tend to give a white-slightly grey flame.
Also I'm not sure the source is completely reliable, and just adding a chemical may not give a flame of a deep color. But that should be an idea.

[Sparky]

Certainly in "iron" fountains (burning metallic steel) iron does not burn green. But when we talk about the light given by iron and that emitted by barium we are talking about different ways of emitting light. The light from burning metallic iron in a fountain is black body radiation and the light given by barium is given by spectral emission. This page gives a better explanation that I could:
http://cc.oulu.fi/~kempmp/colours.html

Potassium permanganate will only burn purple because of the potassium it contains, and as I said that is not a very good purple.

If you have relatively pure potassium nitrate then the 6/4 candy mix when melted will burn with a noticably purple flame though as I said, it is not very intense.

The methyl borate is what is made when you add boric acid to methyl alcohol. It is a volatile compound and I think it is a liquid. So I don't think you would be able to seperate it and use it in stars. Just add the boric acid to methenol and burn it as a liquid. BTW boric acid is pretty cheaply available at most pharmacies, I think it is a topical antiseptic.

Copper sulphate if thrown into a fire will be green, not blue. I'm pretty sure it is easy to make copper chloride with hydrochloric acid and copper sulphate or whith calcium chloride and copper sulphate. As I said you will not be able to use this easily in a star but you can soak the solution into tissue paper and throw it into the fire for a great blue.

Sodium 'yellow' is probably the easiest color to make with either sodium chloride or sodium bicarbonate both of which you probably already have. Sodium emission is very strong so you can add sodium carbonate to most burning mixtures and you should get 'yellow'. I put yellow in quotation marks because it is more like the color you see in most street lamps (the ones that use sodium vapour!) and not a good lemon yellow which would be nicer. Sodium emission is strong enough to contaminate your strontium salts (or other salts) and make them the wrong color so be careful not to spill any in the wrong place.

Calcium is reddish but it is more of an orange red than a good red like strontium. You can make orange stars with calcium carbonate (chalk). SWIM has tried the "Jennings White" orange and it works but orange is not a very exciting color. This formula needs potassium perchlorate and possibly red gum (can't remember).

Zinc is a good point Arthis. SWIM once tried to take zinc filings (single cut mill bastard file) and mix them with sulfur (66/33 ratio I think) and it didn't burn because I think the zinc was too coarse. But then he added some potassium nitrate and it burned greenish blue. It doesn't get much easier than that. provided you have a source for solid zinc. You should add a binder such as dextrin to the mix if you wanted to make stars from it. If you want to try it, I would guess at a starting formula of
5 KNO3
5 zinc
5 sulfur
+ 3-4% dextrin
Maybe you can develop a useful star. It would certainly be on of the easiest to get the ingredients for and I think the zinc color is quite nice. In case you didn't know, dextrin is easily made by putting corn starch in the oven for a while (I forget at what temperature - search rec.pyrotechics)

[Arthis]

So in your mind you need to use dextrin as the fuel ?
Because, despite I gave those colors (I weren't sure about them), it seemed to me pretty bizarre since I have made KNO3/.. mixes and never went purple... I tried again to be sure, and KNO3/sugar, with a great excess of KNO3, burns yellow, and there was no purple color at all.

BTW, dextrin should be "cooked" at about 200°C.

[THErAPIST]

I have wondered how to make yellow for a while now... I think im gonna go spend my next paycheck on chems... I'm out of EVERYTHING besides sodium bicarb... I have an excess of dead AA aand C batteries lying around my room so I think I'll take those appart and take out the powdered zinc. I have a bottle of flowers of sulfur which I assume is as good as regular ole pyrotecnic grade sulfur.. I may be wrong but I dont Sublimed sulfur has any irregular properties. An orange star sounds like it could be pretty nice but I dunno if I owuld make any since they're not all that bright.. In reguards to KNO3 and sugar... last time I burnt a pile of dry mixed it had a pinkish flame to it... I can't seem to find bags of it as fertilizer anywhere around here either like many other forum mebmers can... And now that I think about it, I havent been able to find ANY bags of ANY kind of fertilizer. Not even NH4NO3... I thought bags of fertilizer were supposed to be common ya know? Heh, guess not :(

[Sparky]

No, dextrin is not used as the fuel. It does burn but that is not it's purpose. The reason for the dextrin is to hold the star together in a clump (binder). The reason you have found that the melted sucrose/potassium nitrate mix makes yellow is that your potassium nitrate probably has some sodium contamination in it. SWIM used potassium nitrate from a hydroponics store which is probably more pure than most potassium nitrate at say the farmers depot. For a picture that I found of a purple burning candy smoke bomb go here (the picture is quite large):

http://pyropage.cyberarmy.ca/SmokeBomb.jpg
The colors are obviously a bit funky since the street lights show up as blue but I assure you, the purple is pretty accurate.

Flowers of sulfur should work fine for trying to make a greenish blue zinc star. Never let it touch chlorates though because this kind of sulfur has residual acid in it that will make it quite unstable when mixed with chlorates.

The Jennings-White orange formula is hard to find so here it is:
potassium perchlorate: 53
red gum 9
magnalium -200 mesh 6
calcium carbonate 14
dextrin 4

[THErAPIST]

Thanks for the orange formula sparky. If I can get the things I need by the 4th I'll definately try to make some of those. I'll also make some of the zinc/ sulfur stars as I could make those now
:D

[Arthis]

So traces of sodium would kill all the effects of the potassium ? Therefore, apart from the chemicals needed to color the flame you need to know their "coloring power", as sodium seems to be more effective than potassium, and I guess it may just apply to any composition...

[Sparky]

Yes, traces of sodium in the flame effectively kill the purple given by potassium. It will also kill other colors though not as easily. If you looked at your burning composition with a spectrometer you would see that the spectral emission of potassium is still there so it is still giving off purple but you cannot see it since the yellow is so much stronger. On a side note, the sodium emission is very useful because it provides much of the light in visible light emitting flares. Simple sodium nitrate and magnesium flares are still one of most useful military flares available because they are so bright. Come to think of it, maybe this could be put to good use in an improvised flashbang of some sort.


In a way yes, it helps to know the "coloring power" of chemicals to make colors with them. Some colors are easier to contaminate with sodium than others. I'd say the list of basic colors goes about like this, from easiest to hardest to produce.
sodium yellow (canary or lemon yellow is much harder)
calcium orange (not very exciting since orange is close to normal charcoal orange)
strontium red
barium green
copper chloride blue (especially making it bright as well as deep)

I don't think sodium benefits from having a chlorine donor in the flame, and I don't think calcium does either. Not hygroscopic salts of both are easy to get. Strontium does not need a chlorine donor but it deffinetly benefits from having one (you will get a deeper color). Water soluble barium salts are poisonous which means most hobbiest tend to avoid them. You can make greens without soluble barium salts (barium carbonate and barium sulphate are insoluble) but they generally are not as good. Barium pretty much needs a chlorine donor. Copper needs a chlorine donor and the flame temperature can't be too high otherwise the copper chloride will decompose. This is why the Veline blue isn't very good because it uses metallic fuel. Also, magnesium and aluminum oxide give lots of black body radiation to wash out colors. To make it bright, it has to be hot but if it's too hot it will wash out (go to white). Also, copper hydroxide gives a faint red which can screw up the blue, along with other copper compounds which produce other faint colors and can screw up the blue.

[David-p]

Hmm, my first post............hope this helps. Please inform me if this length is ok to post here, I figured its better to list them all due to the (un)availability of chemicals in some places.


Blue fire composition #1
Source: rec.pyrotechnics. post by Pierre de Reuck <pierre@icon.co.za
Comments: Dangerous mixture,since it contains both a nitrate and a chlorate with a copper ammonium compound and also a combination of chlorate with sulfur.
Preparation:

Sulfur............................................ 15
Potassium sulphate................................15
Cupric ammonia sulphate...........................15
Potassium nitrate.................................27
Potassium chlorate................................28

Blue fire composition #2
Source: rec.pyrotechnics
Comments:
Preparation:

Copper ammonium chloride..........................5
Potassium perchlorate.............................24
Stearin........................................... 2
Asphaltum......................................... 1

Blue fire composition #3
Source: rec.pyrotechnics. Composition from "Magic With Chemistry"[7], chapter "colored fires"
Comments: Dangerous mixture, since it contains sulfur and a chlorate.
Preparation:

Potassium chlorate................................7
Copper(II)sulfide................................. 2
Sulfur............................................ 4

Blue fire composition #4
Source: rec.pyrotechnics. Composition from "Magic With Chemistry"[7], chapter "colored fires"
Comments:
Preparation:

Potassium nitrate.................................1
Copper(II)oxide................................... 1
Hg2Cl2............................................ 1
Charcoal.......................................... 1

Blue fire composition #5
Source: rec.pyrotechnics. Composition from "Magic With Chemistry"[7], chapter "colored fires"
Comments:
Preparation:

Potassium nitrate.................................12
Sulfur............................................ 4
Sb2S3............................................. 2

Blue fire composition #6
Source: rec.pyrotechnics. Composition from "Magic With Chemistry"[7], chapter "colored fires"
Comments: Dangerous mixture, since it contains both sulfur and a chlorate.
Preparation:

Potassium nitrate.................................7.5
Potassium chlorate................................14
Potassium sulfate.................................7
Sulfur............................................ 7

Blue fire composition #7
Source: rec.pyrotechnics. Composition from "Magic With Chemistry"[7], chapter "colored fires"
Comments: Dangerous mixture, since it contains both sulfur and a chlorate.
Preparation:

Potassium chlorate................................8
Copper sulfate....................................5
Shellac powder....................................3
Sulfur............................................ 7
Hg2Cl2............................................ 4

Red fire composition #1
Source: "Mengen en Roeren"[6], page 223.
Comments: Burns at a moderate rate with a nice deep red color.
Preparation:

Strontium nitrate.................................66
Potassium chlorate................................25
Powdered shellac..................................9

Red fire composition #2
Source: "Mengen en Roeren"[6], page 223.
Comments:
Preparation:

Strontium carbonate...............................16
Potassium chlorate................................72
Powdered shellac..................................12

Red fire composition #3
Source: "Mengen en Roeren"[6], page 223.
Comments:
Preparation:

Strontium nitrate.................................4
Potassium chlorate................................12
Strontium carbonate...............................3
Kauri powder......................................5

Red fire composition #4
Source: "Mengen en Roeren"[6], page 223.
Comments:
Preparation: The vaseline/wood dust mixture is prepared by melting 6 parts vaseline and mixing in 8 parts wood dust.

Potassium perchlorate.............................9
Strontium nitrate.................................40
Sulfur............................................ 11
Colophonium....................................... 1
Sugar............................................. 1
Antimony.......................................... 1/2
Vaseline/Wood dust................................20

Red fire composition #5
Source: rec.pyrotechnics. Composition from "Magic With Chemistry"[7], chapter "colored fires"
Comments: Dangerous mixture, since it contains both sulfur and a chlorate.
Preparation:

Potassium chlorate................................2
Strontium nitrate.................................5
Charcoal.......................................... 1
Sulfur............................................ 1

Red fire composition #6
Source: rec.pyrotechnics. Composition from "Magic With Chemistry"[7], chapter "colored fires"
Comments: Dangerous mixture, since it contains both sulfur and a chlorate.
Preparation:

Potassium chlorate................................1
Calcium carbonate.................................11
Strontium nitrate.................................11
Sulfur............................................ 4
Charcoal.......................................... 1

Red fire composition #7
Source: rec.pyrotechnics. Composition from "Magic With Chemistry"[7], chapter "colored fires"
Comments:
Preparation:

Potassium chlorate................................29
Strontium carbonate...............................6
Orange shellac powder.............................5

Red fire composition #8
Source: rec.pyrotechnics. Composition from "Magic With Chemistry"[7], chapter "colored fires"
Comments:
Preparation:

Strontium nitrate.................................4
Orange shellac powder.............................1

Red fire composition #9
Source: rec.pyrotechnics. Composition from "Magic With Chemistry"[7], chapter "colored fires"
Comments: Dangerous mixture, since it contains both sulfur and a chlorate.
Preparation:

Strontium nitrate.................................4
Potassium chlorate................................13
Hg2Cl2............................................ 4
Sulfur............................................ 2.5
Shellac powder....................................1
Charcoal.......................................... 1

Green fire composition #1
Source: rec.pyrotechnics. Composition from "Magic With Chemistry"[7], chapter "colored fires"
Comments: Dangerous mixture, since it contains both sulfur and a chlorate.
Preparation:

Barium nitrate....................................7
Potassium chlorate................................3
Sulfur............................................ 2

Green fire composition #2
Source: rec.pyrotechnics. Composition from "Magic With Chemistry"[7], chapter "colored fires"
Comments: Dangerous mixture, since it contains both sulfur and a chlorate.
Preparation:

Barium nitrate....................................3
Potassium chlorate................................8
Sulfur............................................ 3

Green fire composition #3
Source: rec.pyrotechnics. Composition from "Magic With Chemistry"[7], chapter "colored fires"
Comments:
Preparation:

Barium chlorate...................................9
Orange shellac powder.............................1

Green fire composition #4
Source: rec.pyrotechnics. Composition from "Magic With Chemistry"[7], chapter "colored fires"
Comments: Burns at a moderate rate with a greenish white flame. Not very convincing green.
Preparation:

Barium nitrate....................................3
Potassium chlorate................................4
Orange shellac powder.............................1

Green fire composition #5
Source: rec.pyrotechnics. Composition from "Magic With Chemistry"[7], chapter "colored fires"
Comments: Dangerous mixture, since it contains both sulfur and a chlorate.
Preparation:

Barium nitrate....................................18
Potassium chlorate................................9
Sulfur............................................ 4.5
Shellac powder....................................1.5
Hg2Cl2............................................ 3
Charcoal.......................................... 1.5

White fire composition #1
Source: "Mengen en Roeren"[6], page 223.
Comments:
Preparation:

Potassium nitrate.................................24
Sulfur............................................ 7
Charcoal.......................................... 1

White fire composition #2
Source: "Mengen en Roeren"[6], page 223.
Comments:
Preparation:

Potassium nitrate.................................7
Sulfur............................................ 2
Powdered antimony.................................1

White fire composition #3
Source: "Mengen en Roeren"[6], page 223.
Comments:
Preparation:

Potassium perchlorate.............................7
Barium nitrate....................................34
Sulfur............................................ 7
Powderd Aluminum..................................10

White fire composition #1
Source: rec.pyrotechnics. Composition from "Magic With Chemistry"[7], chapter "colored fires"
Comments:
Preparation:

Potassium nitrate.................................6
Sb2S3............................................. 1
Sulfur............................................ 1

White fire composition #2
Source: rec.pyrotechnics. Composition from "Magic With Chemistry"[7], chapter "colored fires"
Comments:
Preparation:

Potassium nitrate.................................24
Charcoal.......................................... 1
Sulfur............................................ 1

Yellow fire composition #1
Source: rec.pyrotechnics. Composition from "Magic With Chemistry"[7], chapter "colored fires"
Comments:
Preparation:

Potassium nitrate.................................4
Sulfur............................................ 1
Charcoal.......................................... 2
Sodium chloride...................................3

Yellow fire composition #2
Source: rec.pyrotechnics. Composition from "Magic With Chemistry"[7], chapter "colored fires"
Comments: Dangerous mixture, since it contains both sulfur and a chlorate.
Preparation:

Potassium chlorate................................5
Sodium oxalate....................................2
Potassium nitrate.................................1
Charcoal.......................................... 2
Sulfur............................................ 1

Yellow fire composition #3
Source: rec.pyrotechnics. Composition from "Magic With Chemistry"[7], chapter "colored fires"
Comments: Dangerous mixture, since it contains both sulfur and a chlorate.
Preparation:

Potassium chlorate................................9
Sodium oxalate....................................3
Sulfur............................................ 3
Shellac........................................... 1.5

Yellow fire composition #4
Source: rec.pyrotechnics. Composition from "Magic With Chemistry"[7], chapter "colored fires"
Comments: Dangerous mixture, since it contains both sulfur and a chlorate.
Preparation:

Potassium chlorate................................8
Sulfur............................................ 2
Sodium carbonate..................................3

Purple fire composition
Source: rec.pyrotechnics. Composition from "Magic With Chemistry"[7], chapter "colored fires"
Comments: Dangerous mixture, since it contains both sulfur and a chlorate.
Preparation:

Copper sulfate....................................1
Potassium chlorate................................1
Sulfur............................................ 1

Magnesium flare #1
Source: rec.pyrotechnics. Composition from "Fireworks, Principles and Practice"[2]
Comments:
Preparation: Magnesium is corroded by some nitrates when damp. It is common practice to coat the magnesium before use. about 4% linseed oil, or some potassium dichromate can be used for that purpose.

Barium nitrate....................................22.5
PVC............................................... 13
Magnesium (grade 0)...............................35
Potassium perchlorate.............................22.5
Polyester......................................... 5

Magnesium flare #2
Source: Kirk-Otthmer technical encyclopedia[8], chapter 'Explosives and Propellants'.
Comments: Heat of reaction: 6.134 kJ/g, Gas volume: 74 cm3/g, ignition temperature: 640°C, impact sensitivity test: 19% of TNT
Preparation:

Sodium nitrate....................................38
Magnesium......................................... 50
Laminac........................................... 5

Green torch #1
Source: rec.pyrotechnics
Comments: Note that calomel is a very toxic compound.
Preparation:

Barium chlorate...................................5
Barium nitrate....................................4
Shellac........................................... 1
Calomel........................................... 2

Green torch #2
Source: rec.pyrotechnics
Comments:
Preparation:

Barium nitrate....................................5
potassium perchlorate.............................6
K.D. Gum..........................................2
Sulfur............................................ 3

Green torch #3
Source: rec.pyrotechnics
Comments: Dangerous mixture, since it contains both an ammonium compound and a chlorate.
Preparation:

Barium nitrate....................................40
Potassium chlorate ...............................1
K.D. Gum..........................................6
Ammonium chloride.................................1

Blue torch #1
Source: rec.pyrotechnics
Comments: Note that calomel and Paris green are both very toxic compounds.
Preparation:

Potassium perchlorate.............................5
Copper acetoarsenite (Paris Green)................2
Dextrin........................................... 1
Calomel........................................... 1

Blue torch #2
Source: rec.pyrotechnics
Comments: This mixture is incompatible with nitrates and chlorates due to the presence of a copper-ammonium compound.
Preparation: 'Sugar of milk' is lactose.

Potassium perchlorate.............................24
Copper ammonium sulfate...........................6
Sugar of milk.....................................2
Sulfur............................................ 9

Blue torch #3
Source: rec.pyrotechnics
Comments: This mixture is incompatible with nitrates and chlorates due to the presence of a copper-ammonium compound.
Preparation:

Potassium perchlorate.............................24
Copper ammonium chloride..........................6
Stearin........................................... 2
Asphaltum......................................... 1

Purple torch #1
Source: rec.pyrotechnics
Comments: Note that calomel is very toxic.
Preparation:

Strontium nitrate.................................7
Potassium perchlorate.............................9
Copper(II)oxide................................... 6
Calomel........................................... 3
Sulfur............................................ 5

Amber torch
Source: rec.pyrotechnics
Comments:
Preparation:

Strontium nitrate.................................36
Sodium oxalate....................................8
Shellac........................................... 5
Sulfur............................................ 3
Potassium perchlorate.............................10

Aluminum torch
Source: rec.pyrotechnics
Comments:
Preparation:

potassium perchlorate.............................13
Fine aluminum powder..............................6
Flake Aluminum....................................5
Dextrin or lycopodium.............................1

Red and aluminum torch #1
Source: rec.pyrotechnics
Comments: The composition is a modification of the 'Aluminum torch'. Suggested dimensions for the torch are 2.22 cm diameter and 45 cm length.
Preparation: Before ramming, this formula should be moistened with a solution of 1 part shellac in 16 parts alcohol and 1 part of this solution used to every 36 parts of composition. As this mixture is somewhat difficult to ignite it is necessary to scoop out a little from the top of the torch and replace it with a starting fire composition. Meal powder can be used for that purpose.

Strontium nitrate.................................35
Potassium perchlorate.............................7
Shellac........................................... 4
Coarse flake Aluminum.............................4
Lycopodium........................................ 1

Red and aluminum torch #2
Source: rec.pyrotechnics
Comments: The composition is a modification of the 'Aluminum torch'. Suggested dimensions for the torch are 2.22cm diameter and 45cm length.
Preparation: Before ramming, this formula should be moistened with a solution of 1 part shellac in 16 parts alcohol and 1 part of this solution used to every 36 parts of composition. As this mixture is somewhat difficult to ignite it is necessary to scoop out a little from the top of the torch and replace it with a starting fire composition. Meal powder can be used for that purpose.

Strontium nitrate.................................13
Sulfur............................................ 3
Mixed Aluminum....................................3

Extra bright torch
Source: rec.pyrotechnics
Comments: According to the original text: "An aluminum torch of heretofore unheard of brilliance and giving an illumination, in the 2.54cm size, of what is said to be 100000 candlepower". Testing with paint grade aluminum revealed that it burns very bright indeed at a steady slow burnrate and with little residue. It is easily pressed in tubes.
Preparation: Rub the Vaseline into the barium nitrate. Mix the sulfur and the aluminum separately. Then mix it with the barium nitrate/vaseline mixture. A starting fire mixture is required for ignition. The 'starting fire #1' composition can be used for that purpose.

Barium nitrate....................................38
Mixed Aluminum....................................9
Sulfur............................................ 2
Vaseline.......................................... 1

-dave parsons

[THErAPIST]

DAMN. I found a database f tablkes and such that has star formulas in it. somehting ive been wondering... would it be possible to make copper chloride? Cu + HCL --> CuCl + H kinda thing? If thats the case all i would have to do it put a bit of copper wiring into a beaker and then pour in a small amount of concentrated HCL correct? Neutralize the acid with some sodium bicarb as CuCl is hygroscopic... I think that may work. Anyone who has more knowledge in this area care to throw in their two cents?

[frogfot]

Copper doesnt react with HCl, but adding any nitrate will help dissolve it. There will form NOx and i think copper will be both in I and II oxidation states. I made CuO this way, by precipitating copper hydroxide with NaOH and heating it on gas burner.

[THErAPIST]

Thanks frog. I was starting to wonder why the copper in my test tube hadnt changed yet... I threw some copper into a flask the other day with some HCL and some Al and the copper dissolved then so i thought it would dissolve now. I guess it was the AlCl3 helping to decompose the copper though. BTW, your synth for Fe2O3 works pretty well IMO.

[T_Pyro]

If you want to make copper chloride using copper and HCl, you can do electrolysis of HCl using a copper anode. This process works best if the HCl has a concentration of above 1M.

[Guerilla]

Actually, copper does react with HCl, forming (I)chloride. I know, Cu shouldnt oxidize by H+ as it is more noble, but it forms some sort of a complex, I'm sure someone can explain it more precisely? I cant remember what was the concentration of the acid we used at school (dilute, less than 10% anyway) but it took several hours. However if concentrated and possibly heated acid is used, the reaction speed wont be a problem.

[Tuatara]

A fellow engineer once told me that a fast copper etching solution can be made by mixing hydrogen peroxide and hydrochloric acid. I have no other information, and have never tried it.

[a_bab]

Actually it works, but you need conc. H2O2. It'll corode the copper quite well (same speed as FeCL3 sollution), but way slower than nitric acid.

[Bert]

David-p's list of mixes for colored fire, stars & etc. is from very dated
source materials. Many of the mixes are dangerous, others merely
give poor effects. Look for color mixes that use more modern, readily
available materials! I've seen so many similar lists on the net- One
person copies an old Merck index list or some such, and it gets
passed around, copied without attribution forever.

If you really want to make good effects, you would be well advised to
spend the bucks for a good modern book on the subject. Most of
the info available free on the internet is worth just about what
you paid for it.

Try Pyrotechnics by Alexander P. Hardt. It gives a range of mixes
from traditional to modern for each color or effect, and they will
all work. The other military and civil pyrotechnics info in the book
is also top notch. Yes, it costs about $80.00 US. It's worth it.
You can buy it from Prometheus Publications- Ask for their
electronic catalogue. prometheus.publications@cox.net

BTW, you all trying to make Cuprous Chloride for a blue effect.
Quit it- You don't need to. The CuCl will be produced in the flame
from the Chlorine available from your oxidizer if you use Chlorate
or Ammonium Perchlorate. If you use Potassium Perchlorate, you
will need to add a Chlorine donor, such as PVC, Chlorinated rubber
(Parlon, Pergut, Chlorub) or Saran resin. Or Mercurous Chloride if
you're old fashioned and wealthy!

And if you want to make a Copper compound for use in stars,
you may find Copper Sulfide to be easiest. Heat thin Copper
scraps, electrical wire or whatever you can find with an excess
of Sulfur in a covered crucible until all the excess Sulfur has
burned off and the crucible reaches a dull red heat. Cool and
grind the contents, use as you would Copper Oxide, copper Carbonate
or Cuprous Chloride, the minor differences in weight per mol of
Cu aren't worth worrying about. When I was a kid, I used an old
piece of 2" iron pie with end caps screwed on and a charcoal fire
to make this, either leave the top cap a bit loose or drill a small
hole in the top for the excess Sulfur to escape through.
You might not want to use Copper Sulfide with
Chlorate as any residual Sulfur would give you a sensitive mix.

Don't use Copper Sulfate, it's hygroscopic and can cause spontaneous
ignition with several mixes as well.

Don't use Ammonium Chloride (sal ammoniac) for a Chlorine donor,
it is a poor source of Cl and will sensitize Chlorate mixes by formation of
Ammonium Chlorate. Then you will die...

[Crazy Swede]

Bert really seems to know what he's talking about, so listen to this guy! :)

Just a comment on salmiac! Actually, salmiac CAN be safely mixed with potassium chlorate. It has been used for smoke compositions in Sweden for several years with very good safety records. Dr. Takeo Shimizu has written an explanation of why ammonium chlorate doesn’t form in this particular combination. It was something about solubility and I read it in Pyrotechnica, can’t remember what issue it was at the moment. :(

But, in all other cases, ammonium compounds should never be mixed with chlorates!

[vulture]

Bert, have you got an explanation as why one would need a separate chlorine donor when using KClO4? Wouldn't the formed KCl act as a chlorine donor?

[Bert]

Hi vulture-

KClO4 decomposes to KCl + 2 O2

(KClO4 yields .462 g O2 per g. This is about 18% more O2
per gram than KClO3.)

2 KClO3 decompose to 2 KCl + 3 O2.


Both will yield KCl molecules capable of supplying Cl to form
the desirable color emitting monochlorides... But KClO3 gives you
more Chlorine per molecule of O2. When replacing
KClO3 with KClO4, if you want the same Oxygen balance
in your mix, you will be shorting yourself on Chlorine that
you need for best color production. Hence the usual addition
of Chlorine donors to KClO4 mixes that wouldn't need them
(or as much of them) when made with KClO3.

Ammonium Perchlorate decomposes thus:
2NH4ClO4 decomposes to N2 + 3H2O + 2HCl + 2.5 O2

The HCl is excellent for producing the metal Chlorides for
color emission, and is in a higher proportion to the available
O2 in your mix than KClO4 or KClO3. Unforunately, it has other
drawbacks in ignition and burn speed, as well as being more
expensive!

So:

KClO3 = 1 Cl per 1.5 O2

KClO4 = 1 Cl per 2 O2

NH4 ClO4 = 1 Cl per 1.25 O2

Which one needs the most additional Chlorine from some
other ingredient to have similar Chlorine available in the
flame, assuming you want a similar Oxygen balance
in your mix?

---------------------------------------

Hi Crazy Swede-

I have a feeling I've met you on another list?

I'll check my Pyrotechnica on the sal ammoniac, but as I
recall it has other drawbacks besides the possibility of
Ammonium Perchlorate formation. The fact that it's not
used for a Chlorine donor in any modern manufacturer's
color mixings is a good indicator... It's a smoke ingredient
only as far as I'm aware.

[vulture]

Duh! It's been staring me in the eyes all the time and I didn't see it! I've composed a list of oxidizers and their decomposition products in mass percent and I didn't see it! Argh!

Okay, I feel really stupid now.

[Bert]

Don't disjoint your hip kicking yourself in the ass or anything...
Pyro is a huge subject with a lot of material and many possible
routes to a desired effect.

A couple of good books on pyrotechnics with discussions
of the theory will be of great help in understanding what's
going on and possibly designing changes/improvements.

Alexander Hardt's Pyrotechnics and Takeo Shimizu's
Fireworks, the Art, Science and Technique are both
good sources. They are my most used references lately,
and I've got a fairly extensive library.

Both available from Prometheus Publications-
e-mail Warren Klofkorn at prometheus.publications@cox.net
and ask him to put you on his catalogue e-mailing list.
Lots of other goodies there too, including Pyrotechnica.

[a_bab]

Bert, you seem to be very knowledgeable in this field. And also I bet you have quite an extensive collection of pyro books. Do you think you'd agree to scan some of, or it's against your principles ? (copyright)

A very good book describing very well the reactions involved in pyrotechnic mixtures, focusing on glitter/strobe effects is "Glitter, the Chemistry & Techniques", by Lloyd Scott Oglesby. These reactions are so damn complex, as lots of factors will influence the final effect; but the good news is that you can predict them and develop the mix that suits your needs.

[T_Pyro]

This may sound like a simple one to a pro, but it's been giving me quite a few sleepless nights...
Cu, in Cu(OH)2 as well as CuCl2, is in the +2 oxidation state (devoid of 2 electrons). Therefore, the electronic configuration of Cu should be the same in both. However, the hydroxide gives rise to a greenish flame, while the chloride gives a characteristic blue flame. Most sources on the net say that this is just because the temperatures are different. How can this be so in the same flame?
Doesn't the colour difference indicate an energy difference between the electrons in the Cu atoms? Also, how can one isolate any specific line from the emission spectra of an element?

Oh yeah, like a_bab said, some additional resources on this topic would really help a lot. All my chem books are mum on this topic!

[knowledgehungry]

Cl also gives a blueish color when in pyrotecnic comps, so that would be why, at least i think it does.

[Crazy Swede]

Bert, the discussion about ammonium chlorate formation was mentioned by Shimizu in his article "Studies on Strobe Light Pyrotechnic Compositions" in Pyrotechnica issue No. VIII. The phenomena was also explained by Clive Jennings-White in his article "Hygroscopicity and Double Decomposition of Pyrotechnic Oxidizers" in Pyrotechnica issue No. XVI. The theory is based on the fact that in the following double decomposition reaction:

NH4Cl + KClO3 = NH4ClO3 + KCl

the potassium chlorate has the lowest solubility and therefore, the equilibrium will be pushed to the left, i.e., not favouring the formation of ammonium chlorate!

a_bab, I agree that there are lots of information in Oglesby's book, but unfortunately his conclusions are hard to follow (many people also claim that he has lost his marbles, but thats another story). Much better information on the glitter effect can be found in the article "Glitter Chemistry", by Clive Jennings-White in Journal of Pyrotechnics #8. This particular issue is actually one of the best from JoP and I highly recommend it to all of you!

T_pyro, I believe you confuse atomic spectra with molecule spectra. It is only the excited CuCl molecule that has the property to emit blue light, but this particular molecule is sensitive to higher temperatures. Somewhere above 1200 degrees Celsius, the molecule will dissociate and you will get white or reddish emission, for example from the CuOH molecule. Hope this helps a little, wrote this in a hurry :(

[vulture]

This glitter effect, could one say it was an oscillating reaction?

[a_bab]

Oglesby goes a little too far in he's book, I've noticed. Just too much chemistry for a fucking star.

Yes Vulture, in the glitter star there are two reactions: one with production of light and one with no light.

[Crazy Swede]

I wouldn't call the glitter effect an oscillating reaction since the steps involved (ignition-smoulder-flash) usually don’t repeat themselves.

Strobe or Twinkle stars however, are indeed based on an oscillating reaction. Probably, the strobe reaction differs significantly from the true glitter phenomena.

[a_bab]

Yes Crazy Swede, you are right. Strobe is a true oscillating reaction as it repeats itself until all the star gets consumed, while glitter is caused by the small droplets of molten sulphides. I just confused these.

[T_Pyro]

I just got a batch of barium carbonate, and was trying out some flame tests. The results were rather unexpected and disappointing, to say the least. I'd read in a number of places that barium carbonate or barium chloride can be used to make a green flame, so I took a small quantity of barium carbonate in a watch glass, moistened it, and did a flame test with it. Instead of getting anything remotely resembling green, I got a brilliant yellow flame. Next, I added some HCl to the BaCO3 in a separate watchglass, and repeated the test with this mixture. Again I got a yellow flame. :mad:
No, there was no sodium contamination in the setup, 'coz I've used the same method to test red and blue flame colours quite satisfactorily. I use an LPG oxidising flame for these tests.
The barium carbonate might have been initially contaminated, but that's highly unlikely: the label says it has <0.05% Na impurities.
Any explanations, anyone? :(

[Bert]

Barium carbonate is essentially useless for making green effects
in pyrotechnic mixes in my experience.

I have no idea why, as Copper carbonate & Strontium carbonate
are effective for blue & red, but my experience and that of other
pyros I know show it's useless. I well remember buying an lb. of
Barium carbonate and making WHITE magnalium fueled stars that
should have been green, back when I was starting out.

Barium nitrate, Barium chlorate and Barium peroxide are effective,
and serve a dual purpose as oxidizers in pyrotechnic mixes.

In a pyrotechnic mix, Barium needs to be at a higher level than
either Cu in blues or especially than Sr in reds- Around 35% or even more.
If you make a pyro mix with 35% or better of a compound that is
neither fuel nor oxidizer, and takes energy to disassociate to allow
formation of a useful chloride, you probably have pushed it out of the
viable oxygen balance range at a guess. Also, if you don't break
down all the Barium carbonate/Barium Oxide the hot solid particles will radiate
so much white light that they drown out any green you may
have produced...

FYI, some of the best pyrotechnic yellows are made with primarily
Barium and just a touch of Sodium. Pure Sodium yellows usually
look too orange.

[mr.evil]

i don't agree, i've made quiet green colors with BaCO3.

You'll just have to add Mg powder to your composition. Something like this:

KClO3
BaCO3
PVC
Mg

if you change the BaCO3 with BaSO4, or Ba(NO3)2 the color will be slightly deeper(but more expensive!!)

[a_bab]

Well, I currently use BaCO3 for my green stars, which are made of KClO3, sugar and barium carbonate. I admit that the colour is not a very deep one, but it's definately green.

[Bert]

a_bab:
Try a side by side comparison with the others.
You won't want to continue to use the Carbonate.

Additionaly, Barium Sulfate is the only one that
is non toxic... Used for the wonderful Barium
enemas that you will enjoy so when you get
a bit older in the pooper. Barium Carbonate
has a long history of use as RAT POISON.
I use it only as a neutralizer in 1% quantities in
Chlorate greens currently.

Mr. Evil, Chlorate and uncoated Magnesium?
Don't store that one too long-

As far as economy goes, you guys aren't in
commercial manufacture, why go cheap?
Commercial star mfg's. don't use Carbonate.
Most use Nitrate. Some military formulations
and strobes use Sulfate. "Money no object"
traditionalists use Chlorate.

[mr.evil]

yeah offcourse, i don't store anything for long periods of time..

i've just made a new batch stars, magnesium red:

Sr(NO3)2 --> 55
Mg powder -> 28
PVC powder -> 17

i guess the PVC powder will coat the Mg powder ?

how will Titanium powder change the color if added to a red fire composition instead of the magnesiumpowder? As it burns very VERY hot...

will it brighten the color, or will it wash it out for a bright white color..?

sorry for my english. I'm in a hurry now :(

[Bert]

PVC will not coat the Mg unless you dissolve it in something first.
Formulations that rely on a plastic coating for both Mg protection
and Chlorine donor often use chlorinated rubber (Parlon, etc.)
as it dissolves in acetone which is easier to come by and work with
than PVC solvents. There's a bunch of these listed in Pyrotechnica-

Ti is not a replacement for Mg as a fuel in colored stars, they burn
in a very different fashion. Reasonably fine Mg will be burning as
a gas, Ti has such a high vaporization temperature it will be burning
as a solid. A 5 - 10% Ti addition to your existing formulation would be OK
if you wanted a star with a white spark tail and a colored head,
but it won't work if you want to completely replace the Mg with Ti
and have a plain colored star, you'll get a very washed out
color if any. Also I don't think you'd get it to burn very well as a star.

Ti sensitizes mixes BTW. Not a reaction danger as with Mg/oxidizers
but a physical one- The stuff sparks.

The class of mixes you seem to be making with PVC, Mg and
Nitrate oxidizer/colorant was dry pressed at very high pressures for
use in flare pistols during WWII by the Germans. They coated
the Mg before use though. Linseed oil should be sufficient.
An addition of perhaps 10% Perchlorate might be helpful for
ignition and burn speed as well.

Do you have any books on pyro theory?

Hardt, McLain, Conkling? These have discusions on burning
as regards solid, liquid and gaseous conditions of the reactants.

[mr.evil]

Hi Bert, seems that you are even (more) obsessed by pyrotechnics as i am :)

i have read hundreds of sites, tried also hundred of things and read a few books (lancaster, chemistry of pyrotechnics and explosives, Shimizu..) and articles from rec.pyrotechnics.

it's to bad my english isn't so good, i mean.. i can type small messages like this one, but i can't talk with you about our hobby as i can in my mother language, wich is Dutch.
I know much more abour pyrotechnics, than what it seems, i just can't really tell it hahah...stupid:rolleyes:

anyway, colored head with titanium sparks sounds like a very nice comet (especially if they are big ones, like the 4'' matrix comets with a core in the middle for increasing the burnspeed and the thickness of the sparks in the tail).

however..

[Bert]

Hell, your English is much better than my Dutch...

Have you seen Hardt's Pyrotechnics?
It's my favorite currently-

[T_Pyro]

Bert, thanks for the info, yeah, I found out the hard way exactly how "useless" barium carbonate is. :confused: Anyway, BaCO3 would be good for a yellow flare, like you said. For the green, it looks like I'll have to get some HNO3 now... Darn!
The chlorate mixes are beyond my reach 'cos all chlorates have been banned here: even our laboratories aren't allowed to use them! Perchlorate, on the other hand, is available, but costs as much as gold: about US 100$ for a meagre 10 gms, I was told. How good is KCl as a chlorine donor in flares? I use Kno3 as the oxidiser.
Does anybody know of any effective (and common!) solvents for PVC using which I could mix/coat SrCO3 or CuCl? I know of tetrahydrofuran, but all the chem suppliers I asked about it gave me strange looks! Is there any commercial name for it?

[jerronimo]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bert
[B]
. Look for color mixes that use more modern, readily
available materials!

Oke I want to make a blue star, baed on an potassiumchlorate oxidiser
which readily available copper compound is best to use?

By the way I live in Holland so companies like firefox are not just around the corner.

Greetz,

Jerronimo.

[Bert]

Try black Copper Oxide- Should be available from suppliers to
ceramics hobbieists. It's used for making glazes.

If you can find it, paris green (Copper Aceto-Arsenite) was
once popular, also once used in the paint industry.

Copper carbonate works OK, Copper Oxychloride was also
popular.

Home made Copper Sulfide demands caution with Chlorates
as leftover Sulfur would sensitize the mix.

Copper Sulfate SHOULD NOT be used.

[jerronimo]

Originally posted by Bert
Try black Copper Oxide- Should be available from suppliers to
ceramics hobbieists. It's used for making glazes.


Copper carbonate works OK, Copper Oxychloride was also
popular.



Oke I can get black copper oxide no problem but I have limited formulea
and al the blue formula's containing black copper oxide I can find are based on ammonium perchlorate or potassiumperchlorate.

Do you perhaps have a good formula with copper carbonate/black copper oxide as an coloringagent
and potassium chlorate as an oxidiser?

Greetz,

Jerronimo.

[T_Pyro]

Copper compounds are pretty easy to get: Do you have access to HCl? Dilute HCl will also do. Then you could do electrolysis of HCl using a copper anode to get a considerable amount of Copper chloride. Copper wires are easy to get, but if you want more pure copper, you'll want to use copper transformer wires, just burn the insulation coating off them before use. Copper chloride is supposed to be quite hygroscopic, but I haven't had any problems with it so far. Copper chloride gives the most distinct blue flame of all the copper compounds I've used so far, and it doesn't even need any extra chlorine donor!

[Bert]

From Hardt's Pyrotechnics, p. 174 Table 15-24 Round Stars, Colors:

================================

Potassium chlorate-- 65

Black copper oxide-- 7

Red gum-- 10

Chlorinated rubber-- 13

Dextrin-- 5

================================

This is a Japanese type composition, specificaly intended
for round stars from ball shells. It is fast burning and should
be able to take a hard break with adequate primeing
(a final layer of 2mm of scratch mix BP +5%dextrin)

For cut stars from cylinder shells, you may wish to modify:

================================

Potassium chlorate-- 62

Black copper oxide-- 13

Red gum-- 9

Chlorinated rubber-- 11

Dextrin-- 5

================================

Dredgeing these cut stars in home made scratch
mix + 5% dextrine (or leftover polverone dust/fines)
should give adequate priming.

[Bert]

T-pyro:

If you're limited to Potassium nitrate for an oxidizer,
you aren't going to be making good colored flame
compositions of any type. Go make gold or silver tailed
stars, you could succeed at these.

If you can't buy Perchlorate or Chlorate, you can make
them by electrolysis from Chlorides. A little glassware,
a DC transformer, anode material, salt and electricity.

Or, you can prepare small ammounts chemicaly-
Another method of Chlorate production (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2862&highlight=electrolysis)

Go do a search of the site and the internet at large.
Hell, if I lived in OZ and could sell perc for $10.00 a gram
I know what I'd be doing...

[mr.evil]

i guess you can change the chlorinated rubber (parlon if i'm right) by PVC powder? (lab grade).

ehm... you say to prime the stars with meal/pulverone leftovers.. wich is practically ordinary blackpowder, wich contains sulfur.

KClO3 + S --> quiet a risk ?

especially when it get's wet, not to flame you or something, absolutely not :)

but these stars are a good blue ? i've tried ALOT of blue fire comps, but none of them were a deep blue like indigo. Only white/blueish like a gasflame.

BUT!

'Aqua' worked very well for me. Almost turquise :D Cool!

Bert, do you have msn messenger or something? i'd like to talk to you more about our hobby..

[Bert]

Priming chlorate stars with Sulfur containing black powder
is no longer an industry standard practice, as in handling literally
tons of stars you would likely have an incident- Especially
as mass produced stars nowadays are generally rolled.

However, I have made a good deal of chlorate stars as
cut stars, all primed with BP. If you are reasonably
careful and are using MODERN LOW ACID SULFUR
such as vulcanizing Sulfur, it is an acceptable level
of risk for me... Don't try it with "flowers of Sulfur".
The people who taught me use chlorate exclusively
for non-metal fueled colors and have grown old
without any major accidents. They have made literally
tons of BP primed chlorate cut stars.

In an industrial star roller, you would not want to do it.

If you are making rolled stars in a mechanical star roller
it would be a good idea to have at least the first layer of
prime contacting the chlorate mix be sulfur less meal.

PVC has less available Chlorine than parlon and a different
fuel value. You might want to try fiddling the percentages,
bring up the Chlorine donor and bring down the red gum a few percent.
Saran resin works well too. Parlon, Chlorub, chlorinated isoprene
or whatever it may be branded locally is used in the paint and paper
industries. I'd bet it's available in Oz, you might have to ask
for a "sample" as it's usually sold in large bags or drums-

Are you turning your "blue fire comps" into stars and viewing
them in the air? Burned on the ground you won't see the
true performance. They burn differently, and you're too close.

[a_bab]

I have some barium nitrate, so I'll use it instead of the carbonate. The fact is, I've got about 2 kilos of carbonate, so I have to use it somehow ! I know it's very toxic, but the nitrate is aswell.

As about the blue compos, there is no composition yet which will burn with an deep blue colour. That's because in order to get a deep blue, the reaction should take place as a lower temperature than the currently used mixes are burning.

Well, for my stars I developed a very simple tehnique. I am using in general potassium chlorate/sugar mix, which burns white. It tends to burn very fast, but overfueled it will burn slower.
I add strontium carbonate for red, barium carbonate for green, sodium bicarbonate for a nice yellow and copper chloride for blue. Some variations could be: lampblack for palmer stars (works great); Al powder for silver-white, etc. It's the cheapest way for me. I just bought 5 kilos of 99% sodium chlorate and I'm wondering if I can use it for stars, as I know it's rather hygroscopic.

On a side note, my blue copper-chloride stars were OK (I use either cut of pumped stars), but afer a few weeks they get moist, and then wet. I guess it was because of the sugar though.

[mr.evil]

Yeah, i've lit some loose composition on a tile... It wasn't very blue. So you are saying that a white/bleuish comp burning on the ground, MAY look very good high up in the air?

[a_bab]

No Mr. Evil, what I'm saying is that there is no way to get a perfect blue. There are some decent compositions, but none of them are perfect for the upper reasons.

On the other hand, a composition once lit on the ground, is different than a star using the black "sky as a canvas" ;) because of the contrast. My stars looked kinda crappy on the ground, but once in the sky, they looked much better.


Did you receive my email ?

[mr.evil]

i'm sorry haha the message was for Bert.. But it doesn't matter :)

i will check my e-mail..

[Crazy Swede]

In my experience, potassium chlorate/lactose-based compositions often fail to ignite when shot hard from a candle or in a hard breaking shell. The cure for this is additional fuels like red gum or synthetic resins. In the case of blue stars, the copper tends to catalyse the combustion, so their critical wind velocity seems to be somewhat higher compared to greens and reds.

Like Bert mentioned, it is very important to judge your compositions as they are intended to be used. A loose pile of blue composition can often look quite pale and whitish. But, when fired as a fast moving star, the colour can be much deeper! There are several reasons for this, for example the cooling effect of the air, the removal of solid particles from the combustion zone and the fact that most colours seem deeper when viewed at a distance.

[Bert]

mr. evil-

So you are saying that a white/bleuish comp burning on the ground, MAY look very good high up in the air?
You got it. Being too close to any flame keeps you from seeing the colors
as you'd see them in the air at several hundred feet's distance.

Blues IN PARTICULAR are balanced to be as bright as they can be
without overheating the Copper chloride in the flame and ruining the color.
Moving through the air changes the way they burn, with cooling air blowing by
and the smoke & particles being removed from between you and the flame.
And loose powders burn differently than when consolidated into stars.

Take some of your dud compositions, make a few stars and shoot them
out of a mine shot, standing back 100' or more. See if you like them
then.

No, I didn't get your e-mail yet.

a_bab-

You can convert your NaClO3 to KClO3 with simple kitchen chemistry.
Go read frogfot's electrolytic KClO3 synthesis (http://www.geocities.com/frogfot/synthesis.html#chloratedisprop) Look at the last stage where
the NaClO3 is converted by boiling with KCl.

The main problem with using NaClO3 is the Sodium will degrade any
color but yellow you try to make with it.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

OK, I reset my preferences to allow e-mails.
Please don't bury my box, though!

I'd suggest that those of you who can't answer your pyrotechnic questions with a SEARCH here might wish
to join the Pyrotechnics Mailing List. e-mail the list administrator at pml-admn@vnet.net and ask for
a membership.

Same as here, k3wlness is not encouraged there.
You're supposed to be 18, but if you don't make it
obvious they won't tell you to F*** off.

So go, do your research and THEN ask questions.

[a_bab]

Ha ha Bert, you are right about the usefullness of the BaCO3 for green. I remember how I was asking my wife "Is this green enough ?" while testing small batches of the star composition, and she saying "it doesn't look very green to me..."

I know how to convert the sodium chlorate into potassium chlorate; still it'll be useless for anything but yellow or orange as it'll be heavily contaminated with Na. BUT I can use it for H3.

I am wondering if sodium chlorate is suitable for H3.

Bert, I said it before and I repeat, as you seem you didn't read the message: as you are quite an informed pyro, and I bet you have lots of good pyro books, so do you think you'd have problems regarding the scanning of your books ? (I mean copyright paranoia).

[Bert]

The FTP is down...

I wouldn't have an ethical problem with any that
are out of print.

I know the publishers and editors of Hardt's
and of the Pyrotechnica series personaly. I wouldn't do those.
Besides, it's good to have a few REAL books...

[Kekule]

I like too arise the question if anybody has expiriences in using potassium permanganate as replacement for potassium chlorate(or perchlorate) in starcompositions. There would be some difficulties like the high solubility of PP in common solvents for star production but it would be interresting how the effects on flame colors are.( in my 'expirience' the color of PP with organic fuels like sacharose or Vitamin C( be carefull the last one is sensible to friction...ignited in my mortar resultin in a nice purple flame....) give a stronger purple flame than KNO3 mixtures.

[Blackhawk]

Uggg, I am getting sick of KMnO4 (or atleast brown stained hands), from what I have tried it is suitable in flash comps but will give a much slower burning composition (than standard perchlorate/dark mixes, at least with my crappy Al) other than that I have tried it with sugar with no notable success, what comps are you using as your stars, I may give some things a go.

[blindreeper]

Simple alternative blackhawk is to wear latex gloves :) I would stay away from permangate stars because KMnO4 is very unstable and could give you storage problems. Try the granite stars from the pfp because they burn a lime green.
The only "exotic" content is the Zn powder but fi you search in Australia you can get it to your door 1kg of it for $10 :)

Granite stars

Potassium nitrate - 14
Sulfur- 2.5
Charcoal - 7
Zinc dust - 40
Dextrin - 1
type - cut
solvent - 25% alcohol

So if you are looking for a cheap green with a orange tail go for granite stars! My borther and I get a long plank of wood in one arm and have a star on the end and see who can hurl one the furthest! Fun fun fun stuff!

[dana_m_h]

has anyone done the rubber hose in the copper pipe trick around the camp fire. this is quite spectacular with creating blues greens and even purples. colors come from the valence electrons of an atom being in an excited state while returning to their ground state (yes you realy sometimes remember stuff from high school chemistry) sodium(Na) will turn orangish yellow and copper(Cu) turns a pretty green but everything depends on what the metal is mixed with to create other colors.





i wish i had a quote...

[Sparky]

Thanks dana, but I think most people here already know the basics like that kind of stuff.

I've had success with drilling holes in copper pipe and putting in chips from a PVC pipe. Lasts for a long time and gives some interesting blues, and if the fire is hotter, greens.

What I prefer though is making copper chloride and soaking some paper towels in a solution of it. A handy way to do this is add hydrochloric acid to some copper carbonate in water until it stops bubbling. The extra water isn't really necessary but just dilutes the solution, and makes it go farther. Then I dry these out in the oven. These things don't last as long as the copper pipes but they are more intense. I think maybe next time I'll dry out the copper chloride to a powder (and try to keep it dry) then sprinkle that in. Should be even more intense over less time. I tried some strontium chloride (red) ones but they are not as impressive.

[Blackhawk]

Yeah I do wear gloves but they make your hands sweat so much :( I will try the KMnO4 but thanks for the concern, I'll be carefull with it, I always am. Has anyone tried model aircraft 'Dope' as a binder, it is mostly Acetone/xylene, I was thinking I could bind some KMnO4/Al flash (that burns slowly in the open anyway) and the comp would be slowed down enough to use for stars (much as crysanthenum stars are simply modified BP)

[blindreeper]

Chrysanthemum stars may be modified BP but they stil;l burn friggin fast!
Here (http://www.geocities.com/blindreeper_chemistry/burningchry.MPG) is a movie of a 3/4 inch cylindrical x 3/4 inch tall chrysanthemum 6 star burning. It burns damn fast for a star that big so the moral of the story is that the KMnO4/Al binded star may bot be much slower at all. Plus your Al is hand grinded no? With -325 mesh Al the flash burns well in a flash!

[Blackhawk]

Well thats the thing, my hand ground Al is more like flitter than powder, that is why here http://www.geocities.com/schmuckrat/Videos.htm the salute makes much more of a 'Boom' than a 'Crack', more like BP because it is burning at around the same rate, which makes it good for a lot of the uses you would have for BP (even though it is more expensive than BP untill I get KNO3 it is all I have).

[0EZ0]

I'm constanty seeing this kind of wreckless behaviour from newbies. KMnO4 is not to be used in pyrotechnics for anything other than a curiosity. Organic oxidations use KMnO4 because it is such a powerful oxidiser. It is such a powerful oxidiser that it can self ignite when mixed with organic materials when not controlled.

People are mixing it with god knows what and thinking that they might discover some new use for it to replace other more safer, cheaper, less messy oxidizers. It's nothing short of insane if you have no idea what to expect. Mixing it with any organic solvents such as acetone or xylene is most likely going to cause an evolution of heat due to KMnO4's oxidising properties. People have reported such incidents before in previous posts about KMnO4 flash. If you can't find a better oxidiser than KMnO4 then honestly you should discontinue any experiments until you can.

Looking at your video Blackhawk, it seems you are really asking for trouble. It looks like you were less than a meter away from the exploding salute. It should be quite obvious that it is not a good idea to be that close. You could well have damaged your hearing or suffered permanent eye injury from the lumps of cardboard.

Stick to the tried and true star compositions until you get the hang of things. Only when you understand the kinetics behind how and why things work should you branch out. Even for some, the baby steps are still too much of a responsibility:rolleyes:.

[Bert]

Got to agree with OZEO on the Permanganate. There's a good reason it's not used commercialy- Professionals like to go home at the end of the day alive & healthy.

Also agree on the proximity issue. Jeeze, you got an electric igniter but you couldn't take a minute to scrounge enough wire to make it worth while?!
You gonna die, boy.

Take some time off and obtain or make more standard chemicals- And start thinking "what will happen if?" before setting your charges!

My favorite quote...

"It is essential that persons having explosive substances under their
charge should never lose sight of the conviction that, from the facts and
general truths which have just been stated, preventive measures should
always be prescribed on the hypothesis of an explosion."

[Blackhawk]

Actually I agree with you in this case, it was stupid for us to be this close (although there were no injuries) and it was due to our complacency, in that we assumed the flash wouldn't work, as another salute from a similar batch failed to ignite. That and we had been doing open-air tests all morning and we threw in the salute as an afterthought. Luckily the salute itself was atleast partially burried when we set it off and we were around 2m away se we didn't get hit with anything, although all of our other tests have been conducted in a safe manner and we have never had any problems with any pyrotechnics (while most others here have horror stories about accidental ignitions, spontaneous combustion, physical and property damage)

As for the experiments with the KMnO4, if I had another oxidiser I would definately use it, I have already said in this thread I hate the stuff, but if I do experiment with it, it will be in ammounts of a few crystals or less and in very open areas.

"even for some the baby steps are too much" Gee thanks for the vote of confidance, seriously though could you try not to be so patronising untill you have heard what I have to say, I may not have a manly post count but have you seen me running around the roguesci halls screaming 'cookbook' and 'kewl bombz'? I try to contribute what I can, and I can accept your concern but do you have to lay the boot in at the end? I guess it is beyond the thought of some others to give constructive criticism rather than to instantly flame anyone who they feel is not at their level.

[0EZ0]

That quote that you took from my previous post was not worded directly at you, Blackhawk. I think you would agree that it applies to many people. It was not my intention to 'single you out'.

Post count has little to do with how advanced some members are. However maturity and intellect do play a vital role. You can judge a fair deal about the character of most members by how they word their posts. Reading through your posts it seems obvious that you fall into the lower age category. I try to tailor my posts so that they can be understood by the person/s they are directed at. My intention was not to patronize/flame at all. My apologies if it seems that way.

As for your use of KMnO4, I honestly don't see why it is so hard to acquire some of the better oxidizers. Perchlorates I can understand, but what about the nitrates? They can easily be made or purchased. There are plenty of threads on the topic of preparing metallic nitrates.

Every member is different. It is impossible to compare anyone with regards to accidents or lack there of due to the endless variables. Instead of puffing up your chest in defense, take the time to see if you can correct anything in regards to your own enterprises. Safety should be paramount. I know if I received any criticism from something I posted, then I would take it to heart.

[Blackhawk]

And I surely have (taken your advice to heart), at least this could be solved through talk and not stupid flame wars like a lot of other things I have seen. As for other oxidisers, yes there are ways I can make KNO3, and places I can buy it, but I am to say a little more than 'logistically challanged' at the moment, for example I can get NH4NO3 and K2SO4, so I will most likely try something involving those in the future. Simply at the moment I have a small (50g) bottle of KMnO4 and I am going to use it up in tests, even if it suits no practical purpose in general pyrotechnics I may as well contribute to the general body of knowledge seeing as it is a very common chemical for newbies to stumble across and there is comparitively very little info on it (appart from the many warnings that I have read)

Sorry if it seems I was 'puffing up my chest in defense' I was simply reacting to what I took as a personal attack.

[T_Pyro]

0EZ0 and Bert, I agree with you on the point that KMnO4 might not be the best oxidiser around, but I think that condemning the usage of KMnO4 is a rather drastic step. Professionals don't use a lot of materials because they're far more dangerous than other alternatives, but such a logic can be applied to a large number of other compositions that are openly discussed, and even used by more experienced members of the forum. Does that mean we should just prohibit their usage? I think not. Caution, however, should be exercised while using KMnO4, as with all other energetic materials. New mixtures should only be experimented with if one can at least predict the outcome with some certainty. I have access to other oxidisers than KMnO4, but I don't see myself giving up KMnO4 for use in flash mixtures, at least not until I can get a reliable source of Mg.

Some clarifications:
Adding KMnO4 to acetone does not produce heat, and it takes a long time for it to even oxidise it (more than 12 hours). KMnO4 is rarely used as an oxidising agent in the cold, neutral condition in organic synthesis. Most substrates used in organic syntheses reguire more extreme conditions, like hot KMnO4 in alkaline solution.

+++++++++++++++++++++++
EDIT: spellings corrected

[0EZ0]

I was under the impression that acetone and KMnO4 would produce it's own heat upon prolonged contact with each other. Obviously upon further investigation, I found that it's unlikely that a mixture of KMnO4 and acetone will react to any appreciable degree without an external source of heat. Acetone itself can't be further oxidised by KMnO4 without first being broken down. But that does not mean that other organic solvents are exempt from this type of behaviour.

Search for a few of the old KMnO4 flash topics about how members dampened their flash with acetone and had the mix heat up enough to be hot to the touch. It seems flash mixtures containing sulfur heat up when added to acetone for mixing.

I still stand by my comment on that KMnO4 is unsuitable for any real application in pyrotechnics and more specifically pyrotechnic star compositions. Sure, you can go ahead and experiment with it, but don't expect to find any practical application for it. Any colour you are going to get out of the mix is most likely going to be out-performed by the already existing star formulas incorporating nitrates and chlorides/carbonates/metal powders.

[Bert]

Having done bit of flash and star making over the years, my take on this is:

1. Using volatile solvents to de-sensitize flash during mixing merely substitutes another danger instead of making it "safe". It's a smelly waste of time and solvents. I use screens and dry ingredients, with appropriate safety measures for static and friction. I have never had a problem.

2. Chlorates and perchlorates provide both Oxygen AND at least SOME of the nescessary Chlorine to a colored star mix. Barium, Strontium or Sodium nitrates provide coloring and at least SOME of the Oxygen needed. All are at least dual purpose- Barium Chlorate can even serve all three purposes in green stars! Potassium Permanganate is only ever going to be your oxidizer.

3. Manganese dioxide will be either radiating black body and whiting out your colors while hot enough or being BLACK and obscuring the flame when cooled... It's a liability either way.

It's worth your time to look for or synthesize proper pyrotechnic oxidizers. The information is all here... Go to it. If it's too much work, you need to find a different hobby. 'cause doing things correctly and safely will need a good bit of work and careful attention in any "proper pyro" project. Nothing but making crude bangs is easy... And just making bangs gets boring.

[T_Pyro]

For use as an oxidiser in coloured compositions, I find KMnO4 to be a dead end, because it need some chlorine donor for a good colour, and this drastically slows down the burn rate of the mixture. I use home-made potassium chlorate (electrolysis method) for coloured flames, and the results are quite satisfying. I yet have to come up with a convincing green, though...

As an alternative to using potassium chlorate (which is kind of precious to me), I tried making a red flame mixture using strontium nitrate as the oxidiser, and some strontium chloride for a brighter red, but the mixture was just way too hygroscopic. Would use of some anticaking agents (Cab-O-Sil, maybe?) help here?

[Bert]

T_Pyro-

If you've got Strontium nitrate, you don't need to add Strontium chloride. Try again, without the chloride. How are you binding the stars? In a humid place (India, right?) Strontium nitrate is tough, same type of problem in summer here, works good in winter though-

What Barium compound(s) are you using for green? What percentage of your total mix is Barium? (should be over 30%). Are you sure you've got all the Sodium out of your home made chlorate? And how Strontium free are your Barium compounds?

[T_Pyro]

I use dextrin as the binder. India it is, and I wanted to use some additional strontium chloride because on the ground, the red flame is rather fickle. I'll add some PVC instead and try again. Both the strontium chloride and the nitrate are quite hygroscopic, and they give my dessicator a hard time! Do they use any extra "additives" in professional star compositions to make them less hygroscopic?

About my (supposed) green composition:
Initially, I had tried using Barium Chloride, which gave a very nice yellow. Next, I tried Barium Chloride with Potassium Chlorate as the oxidiser, but that too gave a defiant yellow. Finally, I tried my hand at making barium chlorate, but failed at that, because it seems the solubility product of barium chlorate is comparable to that of sodium chlorate. Are there any other alternative routes to barium chlorate?

[Bert]

Dextrin is also hygroscopic. Shellac in alcohol for a binder used with Strontium nitrate stars is one possible alternative. Strontium carbonate is often used in professional compositions- It's not hygroscopic. Chlorine donors are not generaly needed for organic fueled chlorate red stars. And, once again, the way it looks on the ground up close is NOT what you would see up in the sky. Allways at least try a few stars in the air before giving up on a mix!

If everything you do is yellow, you've got too much Sodium contamination in your chlorate. Try a mix of your chlorate 70:30 with shellac- Does it burn yellow too? If so, you need to do more purification.

Take a moment and give your exact mixes next post?

[blindreeper]

T_Pyro try granite stars from the pfp database.

Granite stars

Potassium nitrate - 14
Sulfur- 2.5
Charcoal - 7
Zinc dust - 40
Dextrin - 1
type - cut
solvent - 25% alcohol

Simple yet effective green.

[Lil_Guppy]

I'm going to sound stupid asking this, but it's been bugging me for a while. For the granite stars (or any other stars for that matter) the solvent is '25% alcohol'. Now does this mean that it 25% of the total pyro mixture, or 25% alcohol: 75% water?

*smaks himself in the head for feeling stupid*

[blindreeper]

I thought the same thing for a while its no need to smack your head :p
I accually don't understand but I use 25% methylated spirits in 75% water. I suppose it is 25% alcohol: 75% water because if you had 25% of solvent in granite stars you would have some damn fine grey slurry :)

[Lil_Guppy]

Lol true true. I just thought I had better be sure. I am experimenting around with some Aluminium based stars at the moment. Can't get the stupid things to work. Here is the mix:

Potassium Nitrate - 58
Aluminum - 40
Dextrin - 2

Pretty basic hey... Well, with that mix (-200 mesh Al), and damping it with 25% alcohol, they refuse to light. They kinda melt but dont burn. Lucky I try these things out in small batches, now made possible by my new digital scales :D I have another batch drying without the dextrin, just in case I screwed it up when I made it. Does anyone have any suggestions as to what is wrong. I know there are much better formulae for white stars, but I am pretty limited with regards to chemical supplies.

[blindreeper]

I tried the exact same forumla, they did the exact same thing. The only thing ot make them light was a sparkler. So you can kiss them goodbye as a white star formula.

[Lil_Guppy]

I origionally thought that it could have something to do with the water or dextrin because when I tried to bind KNO3 based flash powder into a cylinder, it did burn, but only barely, and with no white flame, almost as if it had no aluminium in it at all (hence me thinking that the water may have reacted with the Al powder). I might pick up some shellac and try that as a binder and see what happens. Failing that, I guess I'll just have to find another KNO3 based white star formula to try :rolleyes:


I finally got the compo to light. I would love to see what kind of prime these need to get them going from a starmine :p :rolleyes:

Also, blindreeper, have you ever tried replacing the zinc in those granite stars with Al?

[Bert]

Too much & too coarse Aluminum, not enough low temp. fuels for a nitrate mix. Try this one?

Potassium nitrate------------59

Charcoal, AF-----------------18.5

Sulfur--------------------------7.5

Aluminum, bright (#808)-----7.5

Dextrin-------------------------7.5

Bind with 1% boric acid solution in DISTILLED water. This prevents a reaction between the Aluminum and the nitrate. This will be a tailed star with a brighter effect than charcoal, but not a pure silver.

===============================================

If you want a true silver, you might find perchlorate a better choice of oxidizer-

Potassium perchlorate--------30

Potassium nitrate--------------27

Aluminum, dark (#809)-------15

Aluminum, bright (#808)------15

Red gum-------------------------8

Dextrin---------------------------5

Once again, use 1% boric acid solution in distilled water to bind. This WILL be a bright silver tailed star.

================================================

If the only Aluminum you have is the 200 mesh atomized and you have no perchlorate, you might want to make silver glitter stars instead?

Potassium nitrate---------------48

Barium nitrate--------------------9.5

Charcoal, AF---------------------11

Sulfur-----------------------------16

Atomized Al------------------------9.5

Dextrin------------------------------6

1% boric acid in distilled water to bind.

All of these should light with a layer of black powder for prime. I've made bright silver stars with perchlorate and/or Barium nitrate, and no low temp. fuels- They need a HOT prime and a portion of very fine (flash grade) Aluminum to light well.

[T_Pyro]

blindreeper:
Yes, the granite stars composition caught my attention too. I'm currently trying to produce zinc powder from zinc sheet metal for the purpose.

Lil_Guppy:
For aluminium based stars, I get much better results if I substitute the potassium nitrate with barium nitrate. Also, it seems the barium nitrate based compositions don't require very fine Al powder either: they work well with my home-made Al powder! Try the following composition:
barium nitrate- 63
aluminium- 35
shellac- 2

If the zinc is replaced by Al in the granite stars mixture, won't the colour be too washed out to produce any distinguishable green?

Bert:
I'd been experimenting with the following composition to try and get a green colour:
Potassium chlorate 20
Barium chloride 60
dextrin 20
The results were a lemon yellow, not the orangish yellow of sodium, but I still think my chlorate has some sodium contamination in it. Purification of the potassium chlorate using the solubility difference of sodium & potassium chlorate in water would be fruitless, because I have only about 50gms (maybe less) of potassium chlorate left. I'm still experimenting with some other solvents, but I'll just have to be more careful during the next batch of electrolysis, I guess!

[blindreeper]

Lil_Guippy -I kinda tried it but never really did it well.

T_Pyro - The zinc gives the granite stars the green colour and the idea behind replacing it with aluminium is to get a white colour :)

[Lil_Guppy]

Bert
Thanks for the info :) I actually only have access to KNO3, so I'm pretty limited to what I can make. I was thinking about making a comet type mix and try that out for stars (and comets of course :p).

blindreeper
I know it is in your OTC PDF, but I don't have it on hand at the moment, but how much is the zinc powder from the unnamed source (Yep I know where it is, just dont want to give it away ;)) Since you are in pretty much the same area of Oz as me, I was also wondering what kind of chemicals you have managed to find in the area for this kind of purpose.

T_Pyro
Yep, blindreeper is correct, I was going after a white star instead of a green one :)

[blindreeper]

I will try the granite star with the aluminium I get from "the supplier" instead of the zinc for you :)
The 4-6 micron zinc I get aka standard dust zinc is $9.90/kg

Since you are in pretty much the same area of Oz as me, I was also wondering what kind of chemicals you have managed to find in the area for this kind of purpose.
Baiscly everything in my PDF except the nitric acid :p
Email me if you want more info because trying to post without saying valuable suppliers is kind of annoying...

[static_firefly]

The price of Zinc from this non existant place is $8.80/kg. I recomend you get a few kg because Zinc is quite heavy

[Lil_Guppy]

LMAO blindreeper, it does get a bit annoying doesnt it. I would have tried the Al substitustion, but I have yet to make myself a ball mill so I can mill all the ingredients (except the Al of course). With regards to the Zn, I was planning on getting 2kgs of it, along with a kilo of -375 Al if they have it. Last time I ordered they told me that they only sold -200 mesh :mad: Oh well.

[blindreeper]

They told me that aswell about the Al so In my order I was thinking stuff them "Can I order 1kg of your finest mesh Al powder"
They ended up giving me -325 mesh :) $14.90/kg
Now I think thats all we need to hear about this "supplier" back to the flame colours...

[Lil_Guppy]

Back to the colours...

So... I hear that sparklers give a nice golden colour... ;):p

I hope to try the following compositions (Bert, any suggestions with these):

Tiger Tail Mix (from UK Rocketry)
KNO3 44%
Charcoal (airfloat) 44%
Sulphur 7%
Dextrin 5%

Add 10 cc water per 100g of mix and knead very well, press into pill box spools with thumb and forefinger. Allow to dry at room temp for a couple of weeks, no priming necessary.


Sodium Bicarbonate Yellow Glitter (UK Rocketry again)
Potassium Nitrate 53.00%
Sodium BiCarbonate 7.00%
Dextrin 4.00%
Charcoal (Airfloat) 11.00%
Sulphur 18.00%
Aluminum (Atomized) 7.00%
Boric acid +1.00%

Wet with 10cc water per 100g mix
You can use fine flake Al instead of atomised. This will not keep very long so use within a week or two of making. Pump or cut stars. Makes good 50mm comets.

Added the '+' sign to the boric acid in the second composition

[blindreeper]

Both seem very interesting indeed...
The tiger tail is in the pfp and its a shimzu one IIRC. That bicarb yellow flitter looks promising. Let us know how it goes if you try it!

[Lil_Guppy]

Gotta make a ball mill first :( But as soon I get one, I shal try them out. If I can be bothered, I might try one of them out later on tonight I'll probably do the tiger tail compo, as I dont have any boric acid (trying to find a legit use for it before I go waltzing into the pharmacy and asking for it :rolleyes: ). I'll grind the chemicals with my mortar and pestle, so it will be a small batch :p I shal report back with the results :)

[T_Pyro]

Originally posted by Lil_Guppy
trying to find a legit use for it before I go waltzing into the pharmacy and asking for it

It's used for an "eye wash", and I've seen it being used on carrom boards to reduce friction.

I've finally come across an effective way to deal with the water-absorbing problem with mixtures containing strontium nitrate: the solution is a binder called "starpol"

I also came across the following interesting composition from skylighter, which I intend to try out:

Fireflies on Cocaine
Potassium Nitrate 46
Pine Charcoal 44
Sulphur 6
Magnalium, 30 mesh 10
Barium Carbonate 6
Starpol 4.5

I have a few questions about it beforehand, though:
How important is it to have "pine charcoal"? I mean, will the charcoal I normally use for my BP do? Can the magnalium be directly replaced with aluminium?

[Lil_Guppy]

T_Pyro
Yep, I just found that out. That will teach me to search before posting lol :rolleyes:

[blindreeper]

Just say your growing crystals with the boric acid. I think it does matter about the magnalium, but by all means go a head and try it because it may work. I use pine charcoal for everything because thats what I have. What is the normal charcoal you use for your BP? Its obviously not pine :p

[Lil_Guppy]

Another question to Bert (or anyone who knows). Can the firefly aluminium be replaced with my -200 mesh al in this compo?

A Firefly Star Composition
Potassium Nitrate - 49
Air Float Charcoal - 29
Sulfur - 9
Dextrin - 10
36 Mesh Charcoal - 11
Firefly Aluminum - 5

That compo was taken from Skylighter (dont know the origional source)


On a side note, boric acid can also be used in ghost mines to produce a green flame.

Just got back from trying the Tiger Tail mix. It was a little hard to light, which could have been because of crappy mixing, or because it was not pressed into stars/comets, but it resulted in a nice dense shower of tiny orange sparks. Can't wait until I try it as a 2in mortar :D

[Bert]

Boric acid is used for eye wash. I don't think any pharmacist would be suspicious of a purchase. Note in the Sodium bicarbonate yellow mix: A mild acid and a mild base in a water damped composition? This isn't going to work well- Fizzzzzzz..... I've seen plenty of different versions of Sodium bicarbonate yellows, they just don't keep if Aluminum is in the mix. Try cryolite or Sodium oxalate. The "fireflys on cocaine" probably won't work with metals other than the specified. I haven't tried it yet, though. Magnalium used that way usualy produces little micro explosions, Aluminum won't do the same.

[Lil_Guppy]

Bert
Yep, there was a note (which I forgot to include in my post :rolleyes: ) about the bicarb compo, and having to use them fairly soon after making. I have test batch drying as we speak :p With regards to my previous posted compo (A Firefly Star Composition), do you think it would work replacing the firefly aluminium with -200 mesh al?

[Bert]

I don't think it will be the same effect- It would be like a glitter with too much charcoal and not enough Sulfur/Sulphides.

[Lil_Guppy]

Ok then, thanks for the info :) I still might give it a go and see what happens just for the sake of experimentation :p

I just tried the bicarb stars on the ground (and in the daytime) and they look like they will do ok as stars, or perhaps a comet. One thing that I noticed is that the test star burned with little gold and white sparks (from the charcoal and al powder) and right near the end of the burning (1-2 sec) it burst into a really bright yellow/orange flame, which would probably look cool if they did the same thing while travelling in the air. They would leave a trail of sparks behind and then all of a sudden burst into a yellow flare. Thats if they perform the same in the air as they did on the ground lol.

I also tried some of the tiger tail compo as pumped stars and they burnt pretty good. I expect that the spark effect will become more apparent when they are travelling in the air.

On a side note (I just have to add this), I made my first batch of BP today (since I was a lil kid) :D I whipped up a small batch (~10g) for priming the stars in my trusty morter and pestle. I sprayed the mix every now and then with some 25% alcohol just to keep it slightly damp (so it was crumbly in texture), and I am very impressed with the results. Burns very fast with little or no residue :D I scream, you scream, we all scream for.... a ball mill? :p

[Lil_Guppy]

Sorry about double posting, but I cant edit my previous post :( (past the time limit). I have a question for anyone that can help. Can you recommend any good and perhaps hot prime compositions that only use KNO3 as the oxidizer (thats all I have :(). I have tried some different primes from different sources, but I would like to hear a few from people who have actually tried them :p

[blindreeper]

Whats wrong with standard BP prime?

[Crazy Swede]

Lil_Guppy, without knowing what you try to ignite it's impossible to answer your question!

Many times, ignition failures happen because the primer burns too fast or the priming layer is too thin. Often, the igniting characteristics of a black powder like composition can be improved by adjusting the formulation so that more hot particles or slag is produced. This can be done by raising the sulphur level and/or adding a smaller amount of coarse potassium nitrate crystals.

Remember that a well functioning prime must produce hot and sticky solids to transfer the heat to the surface you want to ignite. An easy way of achieving slag droplets is to add silicon powder to the mix!

Also, smooth surfaces are harder to ignite than coarse surfaces!

[blindreeper]

Thats why you should try cut stars before you bother with a prime. They often have nie jaged corners or flaky pieces hanging off them.

[Lil_Guppy]

Sorry about not saying what I was trying to ignite, was a bit of a rush post. I figured out a reasonable way for priming. Kind of a simplistic way, but it works. First you make the star compo (dry) and save a teaspoon or two (depending on the size of the batch). Then make the stars as usual. Then take the saved mix, and mix in an equal part of raw prime (BP in my case). The stars then get one coat of the 50/50 mix and left to dry, then a coat of the raw prime (BP). So far I have tried cut stars, and now pumped stars. I am ging to see how well I can do a 2inch comet on the weekend :) I have even managed to borrow a digital camara :D

[Bert]

Congratulations, you have re-invented the concept of "step priming".

For the larger pumped comets, we usualy make a slurry of smokeless powder dissolved in acetone with finely powdered BP mixed in untill it's like a thick batter. Paint the end of your dried comet with a thick layer of this and then immediately dip it into grained BP. Dries quickly, sticks well and will light most common star comps.

BTW, a 2" BP type comet bound with dextrin and perhaps +8% water may need to dry for 3 or 4 weeks... Take a sample comet and weigh it. Weigh it again every couple of days untill the weight doesn't change anymore. You will need a GOOD scale for this- I use one with a .01g resolution.

[Kekule]

Sorry for going off-topic but after reading lil_guppys reply i'd like to ask if anyone has made small batches( approximately 20-30g) of blackpowder suitable fur use as lift powder with mortar&pestle(of course with subsequent granulating/corning). I will try it myself by wetting it with a water/alkohol micture which could indeed have a postive effect on the burnrate, because the KNO3 is dissolved and to some degree allowed to cristialise inside the charcoal particles.

Of course this method would be laborous compared to the ball milling method but it would still allow you to make lift powder in case you aren't able to carry your ball mill with you and dislike the percipitation method(....now imagine carrying your ball mill by train when spending new years eve far away from your home and still like to make your own fireworks without carrying explosives with you..... ;) ) Would be great to develop efficient almost-in-field methods for firework production

any suggestions recommended

[blindreeper]

When will people learn, no matter how much you grind your stuff in a mortar and pestle it will never be as good as a ball mill! Then newbies say "Oh I made the best CIA BP" when really they only think its good because they haven't seen good BP!
Whats wrong with carrying some BP on you? If you don't want to do that surely your mill doesn't wiegh a ton and makes in it untransportable :rolleyes:

[Kekule]

There are two reasons why i don't want to take blackpowder with me by train:
First if the train is controlled whether explosives/bombs are on board( sometimes this happens when some dumbass called the authorithies claiming he has placed a bomb on the rails or inside the train) you would have certain difficulties (... ;) ) to explain how 500g of Blackpowder got into your bag(......:p)
Second i think it is in someway not responsible to take a great amount of explosives to a public place like a train.

You are rigth about Black powder made by the ball milling method beeing certainly better than produced by other ways, but the question is if bp made by other ways could still be used as lift charge???

[Crazy Swede]

Actually, it is possible to produce decent black powder with mortar and pestle. The problem is that is extremely laborious to produce larger amounts!

In my youth, I made a rough mix of the previously sieved ingredients, moistened it with water and made granules with a coarser sieve. The granules were then moistened slightly with a 20 % alcohol solution and intensely ground in 10 g batches, pressed into cakes, broken into pieces, dried and finally sieved into different fractions. I used this powder for everything but of course I did everything in small scale since I put so much effort in its production.

[Crazy Swede]

Since priming has been mentioned a couple of times above, I will tell you about a problem related to that.

I have a solid rocket propellant that is very tedious to prime because of its shape. What I do is to spray its surface with a water solution of gum arabic and then apply dry meal powder.

To cut corners, I have experimented a little with slurry primes, but it doesn't seem easy to achieve the same surface propagation since the dried slurry prime layer is so much smoother compared to the rough surface dusted with meal powder.

So, my question is if some one knows of any method that would affect the slurry-primed layer in such a way that the exposed surface is enlarged (on a microscopic level) after drying?

What additive or other manipulations could induce pores or small cracks so that the handling of dry pyrotechnic powders could be excluded in this part of the production?

Thanks!

[Bert]

What is the makeup of the composition you wish to do this to?

Maybe primes and priming are worthy of their own thread?

[Tuatara]

Good idea Bert! How about you start one with some of your experiences?

Crazy Swede, this is just theoretical, but could you add some coarse particles to your slurry, like sawdust? Or perhaps use granular BP with a binder that does not dissolve the BP - er maybe NC lacquer? If you use a high solvent to binder ratio there should be lots of lumps on the surface of your prime.