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Nevermore
June 1st, 2003, 02:21 PM
I wish to know the most effective and safe way of storing the AP, since under water it needs too much time to get dry i wish to use a more easy volatile thing...I thought about acetone, or tricoloroethilene, but i don't know if they wil dissolve the Ap.

Desmikes
June 1st, 2003, 03:30 PM
People always say that you have to use your AP within few days of manufacture because of #1 it decomposes and #2 it recrystalizes into larger crystals making it more dagerous to handle. Well, I've had AP sitting for up to two months in the open air (I stay away from containers and lids) and the performance didn't seem to change at all. (I don't know about decomposition). Not washing your AP is a LOT more dangereous than storing it for a few weeks.
For whatever it's worth, AP will dissolve in gasoline and i'm pretty sure in Acetone too.

Al Nobel
June 1st, 2003, 05:27 PM
Store it under water.If you want to use it wash it with alcohol then it will dry pretty fast.

Bryan
June 1st, 2003, 05:41 PM
maybe ethanol? I store AP underwater, and after filtering I wash with ethanol and it dries faster.
Also I have stored in sealy bags for long periods with no problems.

Bryan

Nevermore
June 1st, 2003, 06:46 PM
storing under water is for sure a good idea but takes ages to get dry, even if ethanol will speed up the process, i was thinking if Ap doesn't dissolve in nonpolar solvents then it could be easy to store under hexane or any other low boiling point liquid, also very easy to evaporate, even trichloroethilen could be good...
just to know your opinion, i found plenty of info on Ap but nothing regarding the properties and if dissolves in polar or non polar solvents...

Anthony
June 2nd, 2003, 02:21 PM
The lack of information would probably be because AP find no/incredibly little use outside of amatuer experimenters.

If you've got spare hexane and trichloroethilene etc to evaporate, you likely have an account with a chem supplier, so why mess with something like AP when better primaries could be made?

Nevermore
June 2nd, 2003, 02:40 PM
Unfortunately i do not have an account at a chem, this compound (hexane-dichloropropane) is sold as stain removal at a supermarket here, i just felt curious about it since usually they sell trichloroetane instead of those exotic things...
I can get plenty of hexane and dicloropropane since the price is very low, around 1,3€ for bottle (500ml).
The biggest problem is that here still couldn't find any way of getting methenamine neither nitric acid...that's why i am stuck with Ap...but there is plenty of nitromethane for cheap prices..
i wonder if in europe there is anyone that uses mehenamine for fire tablets or other things..i found only petrol derivate tablets...

phone
February 21st, 2004, 07:08 AM
i wonder if in europe there is anyone that uses mehenamine for fire tablets or other things..i found only petrol derivate tablets...



Yeah. They´re german, I don´t have the pack right here, but it´s almost pure methanamine (or how you now spell that lame word). You just solve it in aceton and you get it pure (or was it water) I haven´t really memorized it since I am an AP lamer (but I do own a pack with methanamine), HMTD is nutting for me :P, but hey, first time I did AP I did 80 grams, second 120 grams, third time (yesterday, drying today) something about a kilo or more... :P I GONNA BLOW MY FRICKING ARMS OFF! And yeah, I don´t treat AP with respect, but well, I got plenty of cold, snow and ice outside so my AP is usually quite resistant against pressure e.tc. Well, right now my brain feels like weird, I gonna have to put up a few lamps e.tc. (it dried overnight, switched the newsspaper it was on) and I think I gonna put up a few lamps to get the bitch dry faster. Well, my moms out of the weekend, that´s why I am sitting here with over 1 kilo AP and lots and lots and lots AN. Well, sure, I spam... but.. hey! :P Well.


Well, almost forgot, I always take all my explosives and just make 1 big fucking bomb of it. 1 kilo AP and a couple of kílos AN coming up.

Dave Angel
February 21st, 2004, 09:59 AM
With making over a kilo of AP and not treating it with respect I think you're likely to blow more than your arms off! I hope you don't have any neighbours to your lab.

You always make "1 big fucking bomb" of your explosives? Sounds a bit kewl to me...

Bert
February 21st, 2004, 01:11 PM
I gonna put up a few lamps to get the bitch dry faster. Well, my moms out of the weekend, that´s why I am sitting here with over 1 kilo AP and lots and lots and lots AN. Well, sure, I spam... but.. hey! :P Well.


Well, almost forgot, I always take all my explosives and just make 1 big fucking bomb of it. 1 kilo AP and a couple of kílos AN coming up.

Jesus Christ, learn to speak and write proper English. That is if you live long enough, you're either a dangerous fool who's going to be dead soon or a fucking liar, judging from you post.

Anthony
February 21st, 2004, 03:24 PM
Phone, you are stupid, ignorant and you're going to hurt yourself. Not in a "shit, that hurt" way, in a big way.

You need to grow up. You need to read, and you need to learn.

One more shit post from you and consider yourself banned.

NightStalker
February 22nd, 2004, 12:51 AM
I vote for dangerous lying fool. :p

Some posts I see I just have to wonder if it's just someone acting the fool and just posting a bunch of crap in an attempt to bait us into flaming them.

In other words, a "Troll".

Wild Catmage
February 23rd, 2004, 07:33 AM
A kilo of AP? That's beyond stupidity.

Does anyone divide their primaries into small isolated batches for safer storage? I tend to store HMTD (washed with a bicarbonate and dampened with water) in 5 gram batches in plastic aspirin containers. The only problem I have is how to store the containers without spreading them over a large area like they are at the moment.

If your asking for methenamine (which is Hexamine, right?), its easily available in my part of the UK from Army Surplus stores and outdoor stores like Millets. By fire tablets, I presume you're referring to solid fuel stoves.

Check out http://www.surplusandadventure.com/ishop/800/shopscr1869.html

The site says you can order from anywhere in the world.

Bert
February 23rd, 2004, 02:53 PM
(it dried overnight, switched the newsspaper it was on) and I think I gonna put up a few lamps to get the bitch dry faster. Well, my moms out of the weekend, that´s why I am sitting here with over 1 kilo AP and lots and lots and lots AN. Well, sure, I spam... but.. hey! :P Well.


Well, almost forgot, I always take all my explosives and just make 1 big fucking bomb of it. 1 kilo AP and a couple of kílos AN coming up.
I was afraid you would end like this. (http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=1570) I'm glad you didn't kill anyone but yourself, at least.

al93535
May 5th, 2004, 08:04 AM
Wow, looks like you guys were correct at guessing what might happen to this young guy, Phone. It sure is pretty sad though, I feel for his mother. Just imagining later that night after writing his post, he died, is crazy. Damn did you guys see the piles of AP he had?
http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/0402/23/NYHETER-23s11pulver_368.jpg
He sure wasn't a liar. I want to know how it went off when he went back to it after 5 minutes went by and nothing happened. I find myself imagining what it was like being inches away from 800 grams of AP when it went off. Damn.

aikon
May 5th, 2004, 09:03 AM
That's a sad story. I remember while reading this thread I tought: "This guy is a liar. 800g of Ap. Nobady is such a fool to produce 800g of AP"
Unfortunately he wasn't a liar. Anyway, lot's of forum members warned him.
The question is how the police reacts to that incident. You can still recall the "Petri Gerdt" case and all the problems some members of science boards had. What do you think are the consequences (if there are any) for science boards on the net?

Boomer
May 6th, 2004, 12:50 PM
I did already mention this in the other threat about storing AP, but since several people complained that storing under water means long drying, here is the (probably) safest method:

Never dry a batch at all! Don't even press the filters out, but leave it dripping wet during manufacture, and store it as a slurry with water later.

Over the last years I made some 100-200g batches this way and felt absolutely safe. It is impossible to set it off when there is much more water then AP (I use 5:1). I tested with a hammer, with a grinder, with a blowtorch and by putting a cigarette out in the stuff - nothing!

So much we know - but now comes the trick: Take out ONE spoon full (I never dry more then 2g), wrap in filter and TP and press out between heavy wood (not with the hands!). Repeat with new paper in a vice (wearing protection). It is now so dry it flashes with a 'whooomp'.

It dries completely now in 2-3 hours at room temp, or in 15 minutes on the oven plates at 30-40C. Do not laugh, I sub-divide it further between the four oven plates, and 500-milligram piles, each spread out over a letter paper, can hardly make DDT. Even if they did, I don't care with these amounts and ear plugs! It is used after cooling of course.

If someone is interested, I can post test results of AP sensitivity at different water content, for friction, impact and flame. Results are interesting I promise!

Dave Angel
May 8th, 2004, 05:26 PM
Ah, I just noticed I was given a 'reputation' comment (didn't realise we had this function with the new software), most likely by this guy, as it referred to my previous post in this thread.

Anyway, I got a little red dot of reputation, (I guess that means bad), with the comment 'stupid wanker', which really hurt :rolleyes:

Well, at least I'm not a stupid dead wanker :D

matjaz
May 9th, 2004, 09:26 AM
Boomer,
...I can post test results of AP sensitivity at different water content, for friction, impact and flame....
sure, do so, please!

Pure Phone, he was so young. :( At least he didn't feel a thing: "Den kraftiga explosionen gjorde en krater på tre meter i diameter i snön."

nbk2000
May 10th, 2004, 01:26 PM
A bit belated, but Phone has been "Banned from Life". ;) :D :p

Child-of-Bodom
May 11th, 2004, 03:25 PM
Why make AP, I hate peroxides...MHN is easy made, low risk of a runaway, stable, and to detonate with EBW of good flash.
Since there have been too much accidents reported on AP - I haven't ever made it and I'm not going to make it.
safety first - better proces what's takes longer that a life with 10 - x fingers...

Boomer
June 1st, 2004, 07:26 AM
Like I promised, here is the AP sensitivity test report. I thought it was too small to link it:

AP sensitivity tests:

Drop test: 300g hammer head, falling free on steel anvil. Material not covered.
Friction test: Pestle on mortar, mortar standing on a scale to measure force.
Given are the number of detonations and the number of tests.
Flame test: cigarette and lighter.

Test 1: Completely dry AP (2 weeks at 25C)

1A: 'Normal' crystal size, dried directly from the filter

6cm 5 out of 5
5cm 5 out of 5
4cm 4 out of 5
3cm 3 out of 5
2cm 2 out of 5
1cm 0 out of 5

50N 10 out of 10
40N 10 out of 10
30N 10 out of 10
20N 9 out of 10
10N 4 out of 10
7N 2 out of 10
5N 0 out of 10

1B: Ground to flour-like consistency, clinging to all tools from static

6cm 5 out of 5
5cm 5 out of 5
4cm 5 out of 5
3cm 4 out of 5
2cm 2 out of 5
1cm 0 out of 5

Friction was not tested, the crystals will be crushed anyway.

Both crystal sizes flashed from cigarette and flame with a distinct whoomp. Smallest sample do ever make DDT unconfined was 200mg (pea sized)!

Test 2: Nearly dry AP, normal crystal size (pressed between filters in a vice)

6cm 5 out of 5
5cm 4 out of 5
4cm 3 out of 5 (funny: 1 time no bang, only fireball!)
3cm 2 out of 5
2cm 1 out of 5
1cm 0 out of 5

50N 10 out of 10 (sometimes crackling)
40N 10 out of 10 (sometimes crackling)
30N 9 out of 10 (sometimes crackling)
20N 5 out of 10 (2 x crackling)
10N 3 out of 10 (2 x crackling)
7N 0 out of 10

Flashed from cigarette and flame with a distinct whoomp. It was hard to distinguish it from the dry sample.


Test 3: Slightly moist AP, normal crystal size (hand-pressed between filters)

20cm 4 out of 5
15cm 2 out of 5
10cm 1 out of 5
7cm 0 out of 5
5cm 0 out of 5
3cm 0 out of 5
2cm 0 out of 5

50N 10 out of 10 (crackling)
40N 9 out of 10 (crackling)
30N 8 out of 10 (crackling)
20N 5 out of 10 (crackling)
10N 2 out of 10 (crackling)
7N 0 out of 10

Burned from both heat sources with a fast flash, but without the whoomp-sound. Still faster than good (commercial) black powder.

Test 4: Wet AP, normal crystal size (dripping wet!)

75cm 0 out of 5
50cm 0 out of 5
40cm 0 out of 5
30cm 0 out of 5
20cm 0 out of 5
10cm 0 out of 5

50N 10 out of 10 (crackling)
40N 10 out of 10 (crackling)
30N 9 out of 10 (crackling)
20N 6 out of 10 (crackling)
10N 0 out of 10

Did not react to flame until it started to dry out, a cigarette could be put out in it safely.

We learn several things from these tests:

1. The friction sensitivity is hardly reduced by moisture, but the moist AP only crackles because it does not make DDT.

2. Crystal size has a much lower influence than we thought. This might be because the crystals were not precipitated in the smaller form, but ground from the bigger crystals of the same batch.

3. Dripping wet AP is safe towards impact, and also towards fire. Towards friction it is only safe if you assume it cannot make DDT if confined (which is probable but not sure).

4. Moist AP is not much safer than dry AP. Even the hand pressed stuff (still crumbly) was more sensitive than NG and MHN, and the heavily pressed sample (more powder-like) was nearly as bad as the dry one.

metafractal
June 2nd, 2004, 02:52 AM
Good work Boomer.
Could you please post your method of synthesis in detail? This is because in my experience sensitivity in both damp and dry states can vary enourmously from batch to batch depending on factors like concentration of hydrogen peroxide used, thoroughness (or absence of) neutralization, purity & ratios of reagents, experimental conditions (temperature), reaction time and even drying conditions!

darkdontay
June 2nd, 2004, 10:30 AM
I'm not syaing this is the best method for storing. I store mine in left over blood test strip containers, they are slightly smaller the 35mm film contaniers. I have had some stored before, that I found about two years after shoving it in the back of my Misc#2 shelf [I used to be anal about where everything was to be placed in my house]. Anyways, the seals are great and it still detonated very well.

Safety is allwasy a issue, but it becomes stronger only when you have special circumstances. If you are worried about storing, and water getting in you could allways throw in some silicon dioxide packets.

Sci Researcher
August 24th, 2004, 09:21 AM
]"Well, almost forgot, I always take all my explosives and just make 1 big fucking bomb of it. 1 kilo AP and a couple of kílos AN coming up." By:Phone

It is always wise to know that:

AP should only be made, dried, stored in minimal amounts at certain conditions and precautions.

It is highly recommended to consider what are you going to do with the AP before one makes it.

tom haggen
August 25th, 2004, 02:38 AM
I have been reluctant to try storing acetone peroxide. However, this idea ate at me until I decided to try it. For one, I always thought it was kind of pointless. Almost every time I've made acetone peroxide, when soaking in water half of it floats on top and the other half sinks. This makes it impossible to store it completely under water. I will now post some results that I have from experimenting with this idea.

1.) A batch of about 30grams was made via megalomania's ratios.

2.) It was neutralized excessively with baking soda until it was extremely basic, and then it was rinsed well to remove excess baking soda.

3.) It was dried out for a few days in open air to remove all traces of left over acetone, which made it virtually unscented.

4.) It was added to about 300ml of neutral water contained in a jar with a plastic lid. Then half of it proceeded to sink and the other half stayed afloat as usual.

5.) It sat for about 2 weeks.

6.) After the 2 week time period passed I decided to check on it and see how things were doing. When I opened the lid I noticed a strong Ketone smell that wasn't there before. Some crystals floating on top of the water had changed from a very fine size to a larger size but nothing to worry about. The crystals that remained submerged had not changed, and there size was still very fine. I did notice that some of the AP had decomposed and recrystallized on the inside of the lid.

7.) I decided to filter and dry out the AP. I checked the ph before doing this and to my unpleasant surprise; I found the ph to be slightly acidic. I have no idea why this happened; all it tells me is that my first assumptions were correct. Storing AP is a BAD IDEA, under water or not. However, I actually have had positive results when storing AP that has been plasticized with nitrocellulose, or smokeless powder.

aikon
August 25th, 2004, 04:12 AM
..I checked the ph before doing this and to my unpleasant surprise; I found the ph to be slightly acidic...


This is the same thing wit PETN. When you neutralize it with bicarb just on the surface the acid locked inside the crystals is still present. All that rinses with bicarb are just scratching on the surface and aren't able to get inside the individual crystal. That's the reason why you recrystallize PETN with acetone.
By just rinsing them in bicarb there's no chance to get rid of all the acid in your AP.

FUTI
August 25th, 2004, 05:21 AM
OK people, I'm like most of people here a chemist (that can easily be seen from the language used here) but I had to admitt that some of you people makes me very concerned about safety of the experiments described here. Someone even talk about a 1 kilo of AP :eek:
I'm not being judgemental but when it comes to safety knowledge and previous experience doesn't count. I have previously prepared and used organic peroxides (as a student), but I woldn't take that as easy bussines. As an example I will just say that recently (couple years ago) I read an article on ChemWeb about a professor from some Eastern-European university that WAS an electrochemist. He tried to obtain some 10g of tetraethyl-ammonium-perchlorate and in final fase tried to dry it in an Aberhalden (I hope this is spelled right) drying vacuum pistol. He was obviously experienced in this (that is standard electrolite in this sort of chemistry) and had enough working experience (in his 50 years). He didn't make it, instead he blow him self, his lab, an a lab next to that. I also did that purification of electrolite but I will think twice next time.

tom haggen
August 25th, 2004, 09:38 AM
My mistake. I soaked in bicarb for days, and then I rinsed it with lots of water to remove the excess bicarb. After a few days of soaking in the bicarb the ph went all the way up to 10. I have no doubt that some type of reaction took place when storing it in water in a closed container at room temp. Besides, if you recrystallized you acetone peroxide, wouldn't that cause unwanted growth of large crsytals?

Bugger
August 25th, 2004, 05:12 PM
The moral of that story about the chemist in eastern Europe who blew himself up while trying to dry tetraethylammonium perchlorate is to not store such explosives dry, and not use heat to dry them. Store it damp or in a slurry with water, which will prevent propagation of ignition due to either percussion or electrostatic discharge or heating; and for use, simply let it dry at ambient air temperatures. Incidentally, tetraethylammonium perchlorate is likely to be a stronger explosive than ammonium perchlorate, because the CH3CH2- groups in it provide a much greater source of combustible material available to be oxidized by the ClO4- ion. Each ClO4- ion can oxidize 8 C-C or C-H or N-H or N-C bonds, with the Cl being reduced from the +7 to the -1 oxidation state, but in NH4ClO4 there are only 4 such bonds (a deficiency), while in N(CH3CH2)4ClO4 there are 28 such bonds (a surplus). The nearest matches in substituted ammonium perchlorates would be in NH3CH3ClO4 (7), NH3(CH3CH2)ClO4 (10), NH2(CH3)2ClO4 (10).

BTW Was this thread originally about ammonium perchlorate or acetone peroxide (both are refereed to as AP)?

Bugger.

tom haggen
August 25th, 2004, 08:45 PM
Actually aikon I was thinking about it, and your reason for the ph becoming acid seems like a good explanation. I still say its a lame way to store AP because half floats and half sinks. This still allows the acetone peroxide to subliminate. FUTI your english licks balls.

aikon
August 26th, 2004, 03:39 AM
It was just an idea Tom. I'm not a big fan of AP and when I make some (edit: in my dreams) I use it right after production. I think Recrystallization could be done when the AP dissolves well in the suitable solvent and you have a special look at the formation of large crystals. In my opinion it's not worth the trouble.

FUTI
August 26th, 2004, 08:18 AM
Actually aikon I was thinking about it, and your reason for the ph becoming acid seems like a good explanation. I still say its a lame way to store AP because half floats and half sinks. This still allows the acetone peroxide to subliminate. FUTI you english licks balls.

His English seems fine to me. At least he can spell "your"... - Anthony

My Slavic origin (and living space) is mine best excuse...I deeply apologise if (or more likely when) I make mistake(s) in writting English. I could use some spell checking program from word or something but I find this way much more honest. I get back to that post I made and find some mistakes too. No hard feeling guys, I do not make fun off anyone if I'm saying all to be cautious. :o

tom haggen
August 26th, 2004, 09:43 AM
Yes aikon. I dream of the day when I'm bold enough to move on to a better primary.

BrendanK
February 7th, 2005, 04:12 AM
Storing AP damped with methanol is just fine. Dry it before use (but not too dry because it can help in reducing the friction sensitivity of the AP for pressing).

c.Tech
June 24th, 2006, 01:46 PM
How about dissolving AP in acetone, adding bi-carb and stirring. Because the crystals are in a solution the powdered bi-carb has a greater surface area to neutralize the acid. Although I haven’t got my hands on some litmus paper or solution to prove if this works yet :(.

If it is possible to wash AP in a solution, would the AP decompose causing more acid to form making the crystals acidic again?

To get my AP as pure as possible I usually flush them with water in a filter, dissolve in acetone, stir with bi-carb, filter, slowly let the acetone evaporate and regularly add water to help keep the AP which crystallizes on the sides submerged.

I store it in a glass jar under water with something such as a funnel sitting on top for easily removal without much of a risk of crystallization causing detonation when opened, like with many containers lids.

I have also herd in another thread that washing wet AP with ethanol would speed the drying process and is quite effective. This is a plus because storing it under water is much safer than in a solvent and now can also be dried quickly :D.

zajcek01
June 24th, 2006, 10:52 PM
Never store organic peroxides for more than a few days!

But if you really must, you should first neutralize the acid by disolving in acetone and adding sodium bicarbonate into solution, then dry ( not completly ) and soke in alcohol ( I like to use isopropanol, because I can't stand the smell of ethanol,methanol etc... ). It is a good thing that all chrystals are submerged under the alcohol. Check once a week that alcohol is still there.

And I repeat, it is not good to store any organic peroxyde for more than a few days!
Do not make so much that you will have to store it! Use imediatley! And be careful whit that thing!



PS. Please don't kill me for my spelling ---> I'm on linux machine again, and I can't use spell checking :(
Sorry for my english, I'mstill learning.

inventorgp
June 25th, 2006, 09:32 AM
I am thinking, is Phone related to QCS - the quantum physicist that
was going to strap 200g of PETN to his head?

Maybe I would store 50kg's of AN but, AP??? that guy is psycho.

I don't store more than 50g, in water for more than two weeks.
And it is stored away from everything!

I bet this guy stores it next to his RDX:p


And zajcek01 I think you'd better check
your spelling before you get banned for it

arlentine
June 26th, 2006, 01:11 AM
Reading this thread, I realize something. Kids like Phone are sitting at home pondering how to create power. Explosives weild power that kids only wish they could have. Kinda like guns.

But every time a youth plays with these things, they end up getting hurt or killed. These forums aren't about aquiring power, but to help the aspiring scientist to begin experimenting, not about producing so much AP to blow the fuck out of anything.

A note to kids: If you have come here to learn how to make bombs, you might as well swallow some arsenic because it will keep you from killing others as well.

Phone, I thank you for teaching me to not be a complete retard and respect these laws of chemistry set before me. Amen.

nocturnal shadow
June 26th, 2006, 06:52 AM
I think everyone here enjoys the power that explosives possess, and just like all power it can be used or abused. And I'm sure that many of the forums members have abused the power explosives contain but to assume that all youth will abuse this power is just like saying all guns are bad just because someone got shot.

Much fun can be had with explosives, even bombs, as long as they are used responsibly, safety is taken into consideration and the lives and property of others are respected.

Controlled Chaos
December 2nd, 2006, 01:27 PM
I can't exactly read swedish :p . How do you guys know that was Phone that was killed?

Does anyone know more details about this. Like the amount that exploded and the details about it going of with the kid near?

c.Tech
December 3rd, 2006, 08:44 AM
I'm assuming him never returning to the forum after that day would be something to consider. But if he got someone else killed would he ever come here?

I think the odds are that his dead, even if he isn’t somebody died from ignorance and our references him were not in vein.

Controlled Chaos
December 3rd, 2006, 01:29 PM
It's sad that someone would disrespect something with such power and end up losing their life. I am not sure if he even cared living, or perhaps he didn't believe anything would ever happen to him.

This makes me wonder if there has been anyone else belonging to these forums that has passed away due to ignorance or an accident?

This just shows us all that the moment you believe nothing can happen to you, it will. You can never take too many precautions.

nbk2000
December 3rd, 2006, 05:06 PM
We've lost numerous people over the years, and members have lost more fingers than you can count on 10 hands. :)

ShadowMyGeekSpace
December 3rd, 2006, 05:35 PM
I hope the number of missing fingers for The Forum's populace isn't that high... then again, The Forum wasn't always this well hunted by The Beast.

nbk2000
December 4th, 2006, 01:47 PM
Figure that for every member who loses a finger and continues posting here, you'll easily have ten members who never come back because they're too shit-scared of anything explosives related. (or their mom takes away the computer :p).

On the other hand, we had one guy lose three fingers in one accident, but he's still posting. :)

ShadowMyGeekSpace
December 4th, 2006, 02:08 PM
Props to whom ever lost the three fingers... dedication is worth respecting.

knowledgehungry
December 4th, 2006, 04:30 PM
I had a friend who lost some fingers to AP/MEKP who used to post here, but he left the forum out of fear of LE. I stopped experimentation for a long time after that myself because I was worried the police/ATF would be kicking down my door after they raided my friends house. Fortunately nothing came of it(he managed to destroy the hard drive on his computer before the police and ambulance came)

As to storing AP IMHO there is never any point to store AP, I always made how much I needed and never risked making more. AP is so easy to make there is no point in making a lot of it at once. I just throw any extra AP I have down the toilet(<1 gram amounts).

Cindor
December 5th, 2006, 03:59 AM
Burn it (in small quantities) and watch the fireball that makes when it deflagrates !!!

c.Tech
December 5th, 2006, 05:43 AM
Burn it (in small cuantities) and watch the fireball that makes when it deflagrates !!!

As a precaution, when you burn wet/damp AP it can throw little bits in all directions leaving a hazardous mess, though it isn’t that much you can be almost sure its dry when it lands.

no_fear
December 17th, 2006, 12:05 AM
Sorry to bring up this thread again, but I saw somewhere that you can store AP with water in a water-tight container for a while. If you turn the container upside down, even if the water evaporates somehow, the crystals wont deflagrate when you take the lid off. Is any of this true?

c.Tech
December 17th, 2006, 02:49 AM
No dry crystals around the lid probably will detonate when you take off the lid, if they didn’t detonate before with another person they were lucky, the best thing to do is not to store the AP and only make it as you need it.

no_fear
December 17th, 2006, 02:58 AM
OK, i probably wont be storing much if any, but what i meant was they said keep the AP in water in a container that was turned upside down. that way crystals cant form on the lid because they said the AP floats and if the container is upside down, then they cant form on the lid.

c.Tech
December 17th, 2006, 03:23 AM
If your storing it just use some plastic wrap or Al foil on the top secured with a rubber band. With a lid the AP can sublime and crystallize around the lid so when opened you get friction on the nice dry crystals and BANG! :)

OK, i probably wont be storing much if any

You only need 0.25g to tear your hands to shreds.

no_fear
December 17th, 2006, 03:53 AM
Exactly why I'm hesitating to make some, and definitely not store too much. maybe like 1mg or something... ;)

Which just in case someone doesn't catch on, I'm not going to store 1mg. How bad would that be anyways? Like a spark or a little pop or something?

knowledgehungry
December 18th, 2006, 01:54 PM
Do you have any clue how small 1 mg of AP is? A milligram is 1/1000 of a gram, storing 1 mg of AP is senseless as it will sublime or dissolve in water within hours.

No Fear, I have a feeling that you think a milligram is a substitute for "just a little bit" as opposed to a defined unit of measurement, just as you think "sum1" is an acceptable substitute for "someone".

To answer your question, 1 mg of AP will certainly not do much damage to you if it accidently went off (providing it did not accidently go off while lying on your eyeball ;) )

waauu
December 18th, 2006, 03:58 PM
AP Dissolved in acetone is a good way for storing it, in concentrated solutions it burns with a loud crackling sound, and the crystals formed by drying AP acetone solution is very small. Keep it in a diluted solution, and don't think that it's safe to store large amounts in this way.

c.Tech
December 18th, 2006, 11:18 PM
Last edited by nbk2000 : December 19th, 2006 at 12:54 PM. Reason: grammar

Notice that italic font at the bottom of your post? It means your grammar was unacceptable (like every other one of your posts I've seen) and your post had to be edited. Please in the future keep your grammar up to scratch because it is a bannable offence and annoys the forum members.

P.S. How do you get half your 'I's capitalised in some of your posts whist the other half are lower case?

Flamethrowa
January 26th, 2007, 12:26 AM
Sorry to bump, but since the topic of storing AP under a solvent has come up, I thought I'd just add this.

When I make it, and only in small amounts, I prefer never to store it for too long. I tend to use an excess of acid, which seems to give visually smaller crystals. If I had to approximate I'd say the consistency of icing sugar.

On one occasion I had to store it for about a month. At first, water was used, but part of the product floated at the top of the beaker, (the dimer perhaps?) and would therefore be left on the walls of the beaker. I instead opted for alcohol, which ensured that the crystals rested on the bottom.

Perhaps this is because I used cheap store bought "methyl hydrate stove fuel" brand, which may have contained a small amount of acetone, but it did seem like a small amount of the crystals dissolved.

Upon my return 4 weeks later, the alcohol had apparently taken upon itself the task of distilling itself out of the beaker and into the Ziploc baggy surrounding it (though it was in the fridge). The crystals seemed to have grown to the size of granulated sugar.

Personally, this is not a crystal size I would want to deal with. I'd imagine that anyone who stored AP dissolved in acetone would encounter large crystals when it evaporated unless it was quickly crashed into water. Am I just incorrect here?

c.Tech
January 28th, 2007, 02:38 PM
About using an excess of acid is a good idea IMO but only if you neutralize it with bicarb-soda or another base, did your neutralize your AP?

My AP floats too, same with some other people I have talked to, but it definitely doesn’t mean it’s the dimer.

I have also realised that my 96% alcohol is dissolving some of the AP because when I washed it by tipping alcohol through my filter where the AP was sitting I got very fine AP crystals in my collection jar. In a couple of days I may test the solubility of AP in 100ml of alcohol.

I'm assuming the larger crystals that get formed is because the alcohol or acetone dissolved some of the AP then when it evaporates or the temperature drops the AP is deposited on the outside of the other AP crystals, is that correct?

Does anyone else but me get some very thin flakes of AP in their crystals? When SWIM was drying about 10g today he noticed flakes when they reflected light.

PeterB2
November 4th, 2007, 01:42 AM
Is there any particular disadvantage to storing AP under acetone? I made some for the first time (religiously followed Mega's procedure making only a small amount) and stored it in an airtight, plasic container under a thin layer of acetone. With all the talk of storing it under water, I'm scared I might have made a mistake...

totenkov
November 4th, 2007, 03:03 AM
Nope. Your fine to store it under acetone. You are going to loose some of your product however, AP does dissolve somewhat in acetone.

Honestly though, why do people even bother to store AP? We all know how sensitive it is, how it will take any opportunity to cause harm to you, so why give it more chances? Though it is unlikely, but if stored for long periods of time the AP may be able to sublimate through the acetone into the threads of the container, I remember reading about this happening to someone.

It's your best bet to only make the required amount, use it, and get rid of what you don't need. Taking unnecessary risks with primary explosives is just asking for it.

rangegal
November 19th, 2007, 09:55 AM
Wouldn't it be safer to store your AP in the form of AP putty pressed into your desired shape (a small initiator plug type thing to place in ETN detonators when needed?) and coated with a few layers of NC lacquer?

deathbymyhand9
November 19th, 2007, 12:29 PM
I personally if needed store AP mixed with water as slurry. After it is slurry I carefully put it in air tight herb jars, (about 4 fl oz.) the rubber seal is infused to the glass so that there are no nooks and crannies for the AP to get into. I also swirl the AP around ever few days in the jar to keep any chunks forming. If I think something about it doesn’t look safe I remove the wet AP put a grill lid over it with a cinder block on it and ignite the wet AP causing a relatively safe wet deflagration.

Shadowmartyr
November 19th, 2007, 07:50 PM
Wouldn't it be safer to store your AP in the form of AP putty pressed into your desired shape (a small initiator plug type thing to place in ETN detonators when needed?) and coated with a few layers of NC lacquer?

The putty doesn't make AP any more storagable than the powdered form, although it does reduce sensitivity to friction since the crystals aren't rubbing together (if its coasted with a lacquer).

totenkov
November 19th, 2007, 07:54 PM
I do store small amounts of HMTD for caps (I usually make it early in the week and let it for over a few days then let it dry so its ready by saturday). Dont store more than 5 grams, but you can put it into a test tube and cover it with water.

Put in a rubber stopper (only so its just sitting on the lip of the test tube NOT forced in!!) and leave it alone. It's also a good idea to wet the stopper just before putting it in.

rangegal
November 20th, 2007, 03:20 PM
Aside from reducing sensitivity to friction, coated putty form would stop it from sublimating and possibly recrystallizing onto a lids threads.

Winston Bailey
January 29th, 2008, 03:45 PM
This may sound a bit "kewl," however though I thought it might be better to know than assume. Most of the time, whenever I make AP (in my dreams) I make ALOT, because I intend on using it all in the next day or two. Usually more than phone did.

I have pics if anyone is curious as to how much or maybe you just want to see an extravagent amount of it. Of course it's not the actuall AP *wink-wink ;)* but rather dampened bi-carb to simulate how much.

If a case arrises and I HAVE to store it, this is what I do. I take my AP (dampened of course) and put it into a gallon ziplock bag and then inside another. I then place that in a rather large lunch box. I fill the lunch box with cool water and close the lid.

After that, I take the whole thing and burry it in my backyard (I have a very big sand pit). This is done to ensure that if it does go off, It won't hurt/kill/maime any of my dream characters(i.e. parents, friends, etc,..)

I DO understand that this stuff is VERY dangerous. I am not some moron who thinks they are intangible, or some ignorant kid, and I do very much care about my own life as well as the lives and safety of others.

My utter most respect and attention to detail is always present when dealing with AP, or chemicals in general for that matter :) . Please do not take offense to this post or my synthensizing of AP. I have done countless hours(by that I mean at least 6 months) of reading and thinking before attempting such an endeavor.

I respect (almost) every forum go-er here, and your advice etc,.... IS greatly appriciated. If this post is unsuitable I apologize in advance and I will remove it asap.Thanks

CHEERS

totenkov
January 29th, 2008, 04:03 PM
Usually more than phone did

This says it all.

I have countless times seen people like you vanish from the forum, when handling things like AP, its more a case of being banned from life, not banned for life. :o

Charles Owlen Picket
January 29th, 2008, 05:00 PM
I suppose if one MUST store it - putting it into solution may be a method to minimize it's "features" (features like Windowz has "features"). But maintaining it in it's completed form is asking for trouble. I really don't know why this is still being discussed; aren't we re-hashing old territory here?

TATP is also boring. The unique thing about HTMD is that it's a damn good initiator. TATP is actually a poor "primary". It's actually just an unstable energetic peroxide and probably should be called a UEP when referencing it in the context of a discussion re: it's use as an initiator..

Winston Bailey
January 30th, 2008, 06:32 PM
Totenkov,

I can assure you I am nothing like phone.

I forgot to mention I DON'T dry it all at once, but rather in various small quantites in sequential time intervals.

I will be around for a while, and eventually I will make a name for myself.

CHEERS

Charles Owlen Picket
January 30th, 2008, 08:29 PM
I will be around for a while, and eventually I will make a name for myself.

I can see you have a sense of humor and that's a good thing. (I know you set this one up)
.....I just hope that "name" isn't...."Stumpy", "Lefty", "Pop-eye", or (worst of all) "Susan". :eek:

But seriously, putting it into solution would be perhaps the safest way but who really would want to? The [raison d' etre] is the cheap easy method of turning out that material. I could see this thread having value if the MATERIAL had value....If you were talking about silver azide which uses expensive materials or cubanes, that have such an involved synthesis... But TATP is just solvent and hair bleach....crap.

There is another way to think about this also - If the ideal is to have a majority of the trimer product over the dimer, with each lab the bugs that allow for any dimer, get worked out. It's a smarter thing to achieve; the understanding of the variables that preclude the triperoxide percentage relationship.

Emil
January 30th, 2008, 08:56 PM
Yes I personally don't see the fuss about AP. There are so many accounts of it being unpredictable and people are forever questioning the safety issues involved with it. Sure all primaries are sensitive but AP worries me. Partially because its the most "f4m0us" explosive within our field, if you get me. Your run of the mill kewl is definitley going to be familiar with AP over any other explosive.

I use HMTD personally. Given respect (Like all materials should, especially primaries), I think its pretty safe to work with. Why? Because after storing some for around 6 months, it is still as nice as it was the day I made it. Its charecteristics are pretty much identical. It's been stored dry, normal just in a open container in my drawer. All I did to neutralize it after making it was one 4% Sodium bicarbonate wash, and filtered straight from the mix, no tap water wash, just straight out. What could be more easy?

Even my ETN is suprisingly fine after one baking soda wash. Had that almost 2months. I'm not saying that it doesn't need recrystalizing, but it certainly hasn't broken down in any form.

Anyway like previously stated. Why bother to store significant amounts of primary? As long as you have a few gramms at hand, make it as you need, and get rid of the rest.

Charles Owlen Picket
January 30th, 2008, 09:20 PM
HMTD is a true primary and recognized as such. ...Just my opinion but TATP is a simple energetic peroxide. I secretly wish I could find some source material that outlined initiation and defined "primary explosive" which could preclude the use of TATP in that context...
- so that people would stop discussing it in the context of anything but an untrustworthy energetic chemical anomaly.

I did find some old writings of TENNY DAVIS (the fellow who wrote the COPAE) and uploaded them to the FTP. But he never commented on that crap. He just had some material from USBoM on HTMD. I think maybe Urbanski called TATP a non-primary but I'm not sure. It was said in the context of detonation being defined as the breakdown of material on the molecular level, etc. Someone will find something to that effect; calling a spade a spade and TATP, crap!

Winston Bailey
January 30th, 2008, 10:36 PM
Charles,

Haha I am glad you found that funny, "pop-eye" and "stumpy" we good :p.
However, I have decided as of now, that HMTD will be my next project. I have had my fun with AP(UEP) but on to bigger and better things(and sfaer things lol).

The only reason I ever made so much AP at once is 1)It is much cheaper 2)Less time consuming 3) And 80% of it goes into a booster (APAN+charcoal).This was a off topic, I apologize. I store the booster in the same manner as i described as before.

I tend not to submerse it in any solvents because as I had stated earlier.... AT MAX it will only be there for a day or two.

CHEERS

Silentnite
February 19th, 2008, 06:01 PM
I've got to say that I've always had my fun with TATP. I've made small batches when I felt like some fireworks and left it at that. I've stored it a few times successfully(last year in preparation for the fourth of july), in simple water. Flip the container over and its not so bad.

But a kilo? That's just asking for it. You can try quantifying your statement however you want, but messing around on that scale and considering it a joke is kewl to the extreme.

nitriees
February 20th, 2008, 05:58 AM
My batche of TATP for storage test was reached 4 years old now. It is place in the glass bottle with water and the plastic lid loosely closed. I take a small quantity, dry it out and test occasionally until now it still in perfect condition.
The dry powder batche store in the plastic bottle with the lid loosely closed was reached 2 years old now, quality was still good, no changes on crystal size and sublimation are negligible.
This is my personal storage test for information, do not practically apply it because our environment, temperature fluctuation and himidity are difference. Such as some people able to stored HMTD for two months without the quality affected but for my environment it just decomposed fast within few days and become useless after one week whether how well I neutralised it, rinsed it, stored air tigh or exposure.

Azido
February 20th, 2008, 01:03 PM
I just made around a hundred grams of ap, and I'm keeping it stored like this. Two wet filters are placed in an Altoids container, and then the damp ap is poured into the container. The filter paper excess is loosely folded over the ap and a little bit of water is poured into the base of the container. The container is closed and taped, to prevent any evaporation. And then I buried it outside. :D

Devourer
April 15th, 2008, 03:40 PM
I plan to store some AP (my country recently forbidd the use of H2O2 in industry), until i can make a safer primary...

I dream of storing approximately 100grams + water in a ziplock bag as a slurry. No air in it. The bag will be put into an exterior casing, but not with a lid. It will be stored at low temperatures.
It may be stored for over a year, but I dont think it will last that long. ;)
I will not dry the product before i put it into water. Just rinse it with bicarb. It is btw made by Megas method, but with HCl instead of Sulfuric acid.

Would all this be safe??

After all i have read, this should relatively safe. But I want to know that I have not missed anything. One question not asked, could be one too much.
So i'll rather just ask then. :)

And...

Will cooling the product below zero, be as good as (or better?) than storing it in water?

Thanks. :)

Charles Owlen Picket
April 16th, 2008, 12:24 PM
.
Will cooling the product below zero, be as good as (or better?) than storing it in water?

NO. The material will be ridged and possibly crystalline unless completely anhydrous, which is unlikely. The understanding of how an energetic peroxide is initiated indicates that perhaps the safest way is to store the individual components. What is wrong with storing just the components instead of the competed composition?

There are materials that lend themselves to long term storage. Energetic peroxides are not one of them.

Devourer
April 19th, 2008, 08:54 AM
[QUOTE=Charles Owlen Picket;102844]What is wrong with storing just the components instead of the competed composition?
QUOTE]

Because H2O2 gets more useless over time.
Or is it a way of storing it without loosing H2O2 percentage?

megalomania
April 21st, 2008, 04:33 PM
There is no ideal way to store AP, it is dangerous and problematic any which way you choose. You can store hydrogen peroxide far longer than would be feasible for AP. Again, it's not that storage is a perfect idea, it is just some methods of storage are less terrible than others.

Water can easily escape a plastic bag, even frozen it will sublime, and the same goes for AP. After a year you will have an extremely large quantity of an unstable high explosive just waiting to go off when you touch it. Hydrogen peroxide can keep its strength for several years if tightly sealed, kept away from light, and stored in a cool place.

ETCS (Ret)
April 22nd, 2008, 02:40 AM
I don't know that I'd encourage tightly sealing a bottle of Hydrogen Peroxide. Unless you know for a certainty that the vent which is supposed to be part of the packaging is working well.

I kept a gallon jug of Peroxide in a dark, cool place for several years until one day it popped and made a huge mess. I hadn't verified that it was venting and the pressure built up.

It "supposedly" had a tiny vent built into the cap.

For safety's sake loosen the cap from time to time, regularly, to release any pressure.

If I had it to do all over, I'd keep it in the fridge and vent it every 2 - 3 months.

megalomania
April 22nd, 2008, 03:12 AM
See my thread on the spontaneous transformation of TATP into DADP in storage depending on the type of acid catalyst used. Yet another reason why storing acetone peroxide is a very bad idea.

Spontaneous Transformation of TATP to DADP Using Certain Acid Catalysts
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=7494

-=HeX=-
May 5th, 2008, 02:17 PM
Storing TCAP is pointless simply because it is so damn cheap and simple to prepare. Now if you must do so how about storing it in solution in acetone with the bottle turned upside down, in a bucket lined with water soaked sponges? The water soaked sponge would keep it cool and also protect it to some extent against fires and shock.

Another way to store it would be loaded into its sealed caps (I am assuming electrical) in a foam lined box in the fridge. This is only for TCAP made with hydrochloric acid and well neutralized.

All in all I think you should not store TCAP or if possible just not use it at all. DDNP looks to be a promising substitute... Just it is a pain in the ass to make.

Boomer
May 6th, 2008, 02:12 PM
Why is everyone "neutralizing" it with a *base*? Bases speed up peroxide decomposition, why else is commercial H2O2 stabilized with acid? Please note they simply wash until neutral, implying no (bi)carbonate but plain water.

Why is the transformation *such* a bad news? IIRC the dimer is "slightly more sensitive and slightly less powerful". Not that it's not bad enough, but whether it's 5, 6 or 7 times more sensitive then MF doesn't matter much. Handling more than fragments of a gram (unless remotely) once dry is taking risks anyway. I shudder when I read of "5-gram pressed AP caps".

On a personal note (apart from having banned explosives from my flat for legal reasons...): I used to make it in bulk but keep it wet during the whole process, then stored as a water slurry in film cans in the fridge. Never mass-drying limits the risk greatly.
Some film canisters lasted 4+ years, but I *did* notice crystal growth even while dripping wet at 5C.

So later I dried the remaining stash in small amounts, spread very thinly on paper, and dissolved it in acetone. If needed, a few cc were injected (syringe + thinnest needle) into rapidly stirred water, filtered, pressed between toilet paper, dried and loaded into caps. With MHN as a base charge, 100mg per cap is enough. With perfect confinement (1.5mm ID brass 'pipe'), it makes DDT reliably within 5mm, needing under 10 mg!

Not only does this liquid storage/recrystallization make the catalyst less important, it also gives smallest possible crystal size. Openly stored samples sublimed within weeks instead of month. Paper-cased detonators were literally self-disarming, if dissected after a year (probably less), there was just an empty space above the base charge!

Lastly, looking at the DTA in the paper, the trimer decomposes rapidly above 70C, while the dimer melts at 140C, then evaporates at 150C. Did I get it all wrong? This makes the dimer look *more* stable!?

-=HeX=-
May 6th, 2008, 03:10 PM
Maybe we should be acidifying our TCAP then with citric acid? That sounds kind of insane to me... I like your idea for self disarming caps and may take up using them myself. That is unless I get access to a better primary... And sorry for making you shudder with my large pressed TCAP caps... My right index finger twinges when I even think of such caps these days :P so I doubt I will be using them.

IMHO we should have a thread on safely disposing of TCAP. I have done so in the past by lightly spreading the powder over a piece te paper and igniting with a bit of burning paper on a 6 foot pole. How have other people here destroyed unwanted TCAP safely and uneventfully (Except for fireballs)?

Lewis
May 7th, 2008, 02:27 AM
I get it wet, and throw it out.

Once it's in the dumpster, it's someone else's problem.

Bert
May 7th, 2008, 01:25 PM
Once it's in the dumpster, it's someone else's problem.

I can't even begin to address how fucking stupid and irresponsible that is.

-=HeX=-
May 8th, 2008, 05:04 PM
Good to see the forum back. When I saw the 'Account suspended' notice I thaught mega had been arrested and the crackdown had begun! Either that or those I-Defenceless goons had committed more crimes.

Lewis: I am sorry but I am with bert on this one. What happens if it goes off due to someone dumping their junk and the shock of a computer monitor falling on it for example. Bang. And your life is going out the window. Say bye to normality and hi to bubba.

I think that controlled deflageration is the way to in, either that or making APAN and setting that off Are the best ways. Bert, what idea would you have for TCAP disposal?

Ethyl
May 8th, 2008, 05:24 PM
How have other people here destroyed unwanted TCAP safely and uneventfully (Except for fireballs)?


Well I don't think that an explosive can ever be "unwanted". The best thing to do is to make it as much as you need. If you somehow have an excess of it then (if possible) store it until you need it. Disposing it of is a waste of time, work and materials.

Back on topic:
As I have read in this thread AP can be somewhat safely stored in solution. If I would have excess of it I would do that.

As to disposing it, burning it "piece by piece" is my favorite idea. You can also flush it down the toilet or if you live near a sea, river or lake just pour it out in the water.

Lewis
May 9th, 2008, 04:34 PM
What happens if it goes off due to someone dumping their junk and the shock of a computer monitor falling on it for example.


Perhaps I should elaborate a little. Back when I used AP on a regular basis, I would still make only small amounts... say less than a couple grams.

Any leftover AP would be negligible. I would spread it, wet, on a thin layer of toweling, then drop it to the bottom of the dumpster. I also wouldn't do this with the dumpster directly behind my house.

Much more immoral things are discussed here than perhaps scaring someone with a little bang.

Bert
May 9th, 2008, 04:36 PM
Bert, what idea would you have for TCAP disposal?

"And the Kewls went unto the temple and stood before the priest as he sayeth unto them: Renounce the organic peroxides; turn your head from Satan and be healed! And they saw the uncleanness all around them: their beekers and flasks were befouled! And as they saw, they wept for they knew they were shamed in the eyes of those who went before them."





The best path would be to never need to dispose of it, because you never made it in the first place.

I know no one who is just starting out will listen to that advice, it's so easy and kewl to make.

Open burn is probably the way to go. Dissolve it in a flammable solvent and spread on a large piece of cardboard in a safe place, then set the cardboard on fire from a down wind corner, retireing quickly. Same way you'd dispose of a small ammount of nitroglycerin.

-=HeX=-
May 9th, 2008, 05:18 PM
Bert: Quote:
"And the Kewls went unto the temple and stood before the priest as he sayeth unto them: Renounce the organic peroxides; turn your head from Satan and be healed! And they saw the uncleanness all around them: their beekers and flasks were befouled! And as they saw, they wept for they knew they were shamed in the eyes of those who went before them."

Brilliant! I like it... And yes, you do have a very good point. Personally I only bother with it because I find better things hard to obtain at my age... But I now have 2 or 3 sodium azide filled airbags at my disposal! Storage is moot when the substance is not there :D.

Bert
May 9th, 2008, 10:29 PM
Before you try to crack one of those open be sure to research Sodium azide's properties, particularly toxicity. It is every bit as dangerous as cyanide.

Lewis
May 9th, 2008, 10:54 PM
Indeed, this is the main reason I'm so reluctant to go this route for a source of primaries. Of all the dangerous projects I'd be willing to cook up, high voltage, and extreme toxicity are the hazards I'm most afraid of.

Bert
May 10th, 2008, 01:45 AM
Wear gloves. Wear a filter mask when handling the dry chemical. Make sure that solutions are slightly basic.

-=HeX=-
May 10th, 2008, 06:07 AM
Lewis (And bert): I got your private message lewis and will reply here due to my pm sender being on the fritz again. I have read the msds a few times and have even seen it suggested as a suicide pill.

I know that it is horribly toxic and will be wearing gloves, goggles, a face mask, and I will have a friend nearby to arrange my funeral. I hope to make azo clathrates. I will probably just pry it apart and dump its filler into water with some sodium hydroxide. Then I will take it from there.

It will be summer before I have the time to attempt it so do not be waiting.

++++++++++++++++++

Lets get this thread back on track - Duke