Dogs as weapons

[nbk2000]

It's been a long staple of "Gangsta's", of the ghetto variety, to have at least one (sometimes more) pit bulls/rotweillers/dobermans to act as attack dogs in defense of their "crib" (AKA crack house). Usually, though, the dogs serve only as a minor annoyance, since the muds neither train them to be the lethal killers they could be, nor have them in the numbers needed to ensure sucessful attack.

The pork are well aware of this fact, and have developed tactics to deal with them, tactics I won't get into here since that's not the point of this thread.

The point of this thread is how to best use dogs as weapons. Either offensively as autonomous weapons that'll seek out and destroy their target, or defensively to defend against attacking pork.

Personally, I can't stand dogs, being a cat person myself. Cats have been worshipped around the world as the graceful and dignified gods that they are, while dogs have generally been regarded as the stupid and loathsome animals that they are.

But, despite their loathsome nature, mutts do have their uses.

First thing, though, is that they're most effective when used in a "swarming" mode. Taking our cue from both the japanese honeybee, and the woodland ant, we find that, when dealing with more lethal agressors (hornets/fire ants), these insects overpower the superiorly armed agressor by swarming them in large numbers.

So too must you use dogs in quantities, when dealing with pork, to ensure that at least a few make it to their targets, since the pigs WILL be shooting at them. By supplying a surplus of mutt meat, there's too many to target in the limited time they'll have.

Also, the elements of speed and surprise are important, since the pigs won't be prepared for a swarm of dogs if they've never seen them, if they appear from (seemingly) nowhere, and are upon the pork in only a couple of seconds and in numbers.

OFFENSE

Dogs have been used in WW2 by the russians as anti-tank weapons. This was accomplished by putting the dogs food underneath captured nazi tanks, so the dogs would crawl underneath them to eat.

On the battlefield, the dogs would be starved for a couple days, prior to being used.

The commies would strap a bomb of some few pounds of TNT on the dogs back, that had a tilt-rod fuze sticking up, then release the dogs so they'd run underneath the tanks that (they thought) had food. When the dog tried to get underneath the tank...BOOM!

This had the slight problem, though, of the dogs sometimes confusing soviet tanks for nazi tanks, resulting in "friendly" fire.

Same idea could be put to use by criminals to engage the pork. Fortunately for us, cops make it easy by having bright flashing lights and contrasting color schemes on their cars, making the likelyhood of a dog confusing the porks car for a citizens highly unlikely.

The dogs, having been trained to home in on pig-mobiles, would be kept in an ready/armed state, in support of a criminal operation. If pork show up, the dogs are released to seek out and destroy the intruding pigs. While they're engaged in either trying to kill the dogs (which explodes the bombs), flee from the dogs, or getting blown up, the crims make their getaway. :)

Remotely operated door releases are available through aftermarket car suppliers, that would be useable to release a van door to release a swarm of dog "torpedoes". Dog armor would be useful if you knew the pork was coming (or had already arrived), to increase the dogs survivability prior to releasing your canine "torpedoes", to give you a chaotic event so you can escape.

Kevlar fabric covering their front torso, and steel "helmets" to cover their heads, would make an otherwise lethal hit a stunning blow, that'd do nothing to deter the starving dogs from their "food". So, instead of being able to kill three dogs, the cops may only be able to kill one, allowing the extra two to "feed" on pork!

I read about how some K-9 handlers have had their dogs fangs replaced with stainless-steel prosthetic fangs. The psychological impact of this mod on suspects is said to be quite impressive. The idea of steel fangs glinting in the sun does strike me as an impressive sight.

But why stop there? There's no reason why a crim can't have the same thing done, only the fangs snap off in the victim when bitten, opening an interior capsule that contains a deadly poison. In training, the capsules are empty, so the dog doesn't die (of course), only to be emplaced prior to a killing.

The dogs would be trained to home in on a specific victim, by smell (like pheromones), that smell being something unique that'd be sprayed onto the victims clothing in an inconspicuous manner sometime prior. Dogs, having vastly superior senses of smell, would home in, attack, and die from the poison along with the victim ( if the victim wasn't mauled to death first. :D), removing them as possible evidence.

Dogs have a natural instinct to go for the throat, which removes two of their legs from the ground, and exposes their vulnerable underside to attack. When training dogs to kill humans, you need to teach them to stay low to the ground, go for the legs/groin, and maul the throat only AFTER the victim is down on the ground. This allows the dog to use it's superior traction (4 legs) to its advantage. A good example of this is the scene in the movie Boys from Brazil where Dr. Mengela gets mauled to death by a pack of killer dobermans, siced on him by the Hitler clone. Oh, the irony....

DEFENSE

Every "Lair of Evil" ;) needs a pack of guard dogs.

Pork is used to having to deal with 'em, so you'll have to RTPB "Break patterns" and be different with your tactics, if you wish to FUBAR the SQUAT team's raid tactics.

Now it's becoming more and more common to find police departments arming their SQUAT teams with suppressed weapons, for the express purpose of taking out guard dogs, without giving themselves away.

Several ways of defeating this tactic comes to mind.

Provide "bunkers" for the dogs to sleep in. The usual dog house isn't going to cut it. But, if you half-bury one of those plastic dome dog-houses, and put a U shaped berm of sandbags in front of the opening, what does that do? When a dog is lying down, it's impossible to shoot it since the dog is below the LOS of any piggie sniper, requiring the dog to be awake and up to be shot.

Since you'll have several dogs, all of whom are "bunkered" like this, this makes it impossible to kill them all before one of them starts barking, since dogs can hear suppressed weapons fire very well (ultrasound).

Roving dogs need to be monitered by some sort of "proof-of-life" device so that, when shot, their death immediately sounds an alarm, bark or no bark.

Here in the in-bred midwest, every house has a basement, which would be a good place to keep the kennel.

Say you had six dogs, all the same breed and approximate size, kept in the kennel. The dogs are released one at a time, to roam around for a few hours, before being called back into the kennel by whatever means. To anyone observing the house, it seems that there's only one dog (that never sleeps :D), so that's what they'll be planning for.

Imagine the surprise the SQUAT team would get if, instead of one dog, SIX dogs came swarming out from hidden exits underneath the patio, falling upon them within a mere two seconds and from (literally) underneath their feet! :eek: It'd be a bad day to be pork, that's for sure.

Six man-eaters, panicing pork, full-auto guns, close quarters with nowhere to run...MWAHAHAHA!! Cops killing cops!

The problems of feeding/caring/cleaning up after a half-dozen or more mutts is one I leave to the reader to figure out for themselves. Also, it'd be best if the dogs had been surgically fixed to prevent barking, or at least trained to not bark unless attacking, to prevent warning of their presence.

[Fear]

Interesting idea to say the least.
The obvious way for the multiple dog rotation would just be collar and remote, computer (the ol’ breadboard and solder) or a programmed interface on your computer,. Also using that underground wire idea, except they may get used to the boundary and not run into the street when they need to. better train that into them, make sure they commit suicide when you want them to. Even with a fence its sill seems to be a problem.
They also have claw caps, maybe go the way of the rooster fighters, and use blades, might get a bit nasty if they get a flea though. Surgery is another idea, some smugglers have use all the way up the line to humans to hide drugs in the body, why not explosives, not very practical though.
Drugs enhance the aggressive qualities and would probably allow it to go on after what would normally kill it, but anyone that has tried to kill one will know that dogs are VERY hard to kill with a 9mm, one of the reasons that several agencies are bulking up to higher caliber guns. Police and military use doggy body armor, try to find there supplier, metal is rather inflexible, so only on skull, most animals run with their whole body, not just their legs.
Also they would provide distraction if they started barking, more noise to cover your suppressed gunfire. Make escape or destruction of evidence easier by delaying entry and early detection of intrusion, gorillas are some of the smartest of the ape family, right below chimpanzees. :)
Your device holders are pre-made for your convenience, dog hiking packs.
http://www.greatoutdoorsdepot.com/canine-packs.html plenty of links if you just search.
Maybe tunnels for dogs not coming from the house or kennels, but by that bush beside the drive.

It was once a big thing in Europe once, hunting wild pigs with dogs. :)

[Jakio]

While attack-style dogs would be perfect for an "evil layer" type situation, I would imagine that american pit bull terriers would be much less conspicuous. APBT's are very loyal dogs that protect their owners to the death, yet treat friendly humans with loving affection. This way, less worry about random child-bitings or unwanted piggy attention. Having two or three of these dogs would atract less attention than an "attack pack" :) ... Plus, you wouldn't have to starve'em into guard duty....

[A-BOMB]

I love dogs and cats, my dad had the most evil dog ever it was a german wirehair pointer. One time my dad went out hunting he came back with all the shells I had reloaded him, but with 5 pheasants, the dog had snuck up on the bird and broke there necks, evil dog. That dog could sneek up on anything, one day we were out hunting doves in some waist high tall grass, we couldnt hide the dog till when hear someone screaming body murder about something so we run to see what it was. It seems that our dog had snuck up on this amish guy and had bit a big chunk out of the back of this leg and was chaseing him and all the while hes screaming like a woman that hes being attacked by a wolf. That dog was fucking scary. So if you were to plant some tall grasses all around you "lair of evil" and had one of those electronic fences in place so the dont leave the grass the pigs won't know that there 7 mean evil specialy trained pig killing dogs in there waiting to bite there nuts off. It would also be great for putting trip guns in so as the swat is coming up to the side of your "lair of evil"
bang! bang! bang! as the knee knockers and mini-clamores rip through the swats legs over the radio officers down, officers down (pigs are all rolling on the ground in the tall grass where the other pigs cant see them, gropeing at whats left of there legs) then you releses your automatic pig killers(dogs) to finish them off in a grusome and bloody fashion. And you don't need a big dog to be a alarm dog it could be a doxen, those dogs are loud for there size (size of a football), my aunt had one that would bark as if it were a mastif if anyone came near there house.

[Mr Cool]

Cats are much better. Imagine the fear when a pack of evil cats attacks you!
RTPB "Break Patterns" - dogs might be suspected, cats have an element of surprise!

This (http://www.boomspeed.com/mrcool/scarycat.jpg), for example, would certainly scare me!
Lol.

Seriously, it is a good idea, but would take considerable planning.

[nbk2000]

What's the difference between a pit bull and a APBT...none. Only training makes the "friendly" APBT into a vicious "pit bull".

Besides which, there'd be no problems with brats getting chewed because the "Lair of Evil" has decent fencing to keep them out, and the dogs in.

You could have a pack of little "doxhounds" (NOT the proper spelling) running around, and they'd be harmless enough...and that's the problem. If you're going to bother with dogs at all, then those dogs might as well be the most ferocious and agressive dogs you can get, so they can attack/defend as well as warn.

Jakio, you wouldn't be starving your guard dogs, only the dogs trained to seek out pig-mobiles for destruction. Starving them makes them "motivated" to get to the pigs car, despite the noise of gunfire and sirens. ;)

Fear, you were thinking what I was thinking, about how to schedule the dogs. But I was thinking more along the lines of mechanical timers that unlock the kennel doors, and an electronic dog whistle (ultrasound) to call the dog back in. Computers have a nasty way of going out when piggies cut the power prior to a raid.

The claw caps would have to be put on immediately prior to a hit, for the very reason you mentioned, though if they were mounted only of the front legs, then the dogs would be reasonably safe from injuring themselves, since I've never seen a dog scratching itself with its front legs. Only cats are smart enough to do that. :p

[Anthony]

MrC, I'm 99% sure that cat is only yawning! Note the casual way it's standing and how its ears aren't put back.

I think cats would be hard to train for this kind of job, dogs just do what they're told because they're stupid, cats tend to do what the fuck they like. Although they'll attack a person 100 times their size, I think they lack the killer instinct to charge across the threshold to do so.

I've noticed that my cats can open their jaws as wide as I can, not too bad considering their comparitive size.

I wonder if break-off fangs would reduce the damage a dog could inflict? Obviously the first cop bit will likely die, but the dog would probably have a hard time tearing his and targets' throats out after. I'm assuming that a dog mainly uses its fangs to tear, I could be wrong.

I can't think of a better way to release the poison into the target though. Bearing in mind that the poison has to be contained reliable in day-to-day doggie activity for significant lengths of time.

[A-BOMB]

With doxens you can put a million of them into the space needed for 6 bigger dogs, Though they may be smaller you can still use them think of a handgrenade taped to its back then think of 50 handgrenades running radomly through the police lines doxens are smaller than the bigger dogs so harder to hit, need less food, and if all else fails at least the swat team can trip over them or try shooting them.

[Jakio]

Jakio, you wouldn't be starving your guard dogs, only the dogs trained to seek out pig-mobiles for destruction. Starving them makes them "motivated" to get to the pigs car, despite the noise of gunfire and sirens.

Of course, I'm from the school of thought that says dogs that are well fed and exercised will be much more loyal and willing to defend their owners...

As far as apbt, I was just trying to make the distinction between American pit bull terriers and Staffordshire Bull Terriers... both are good house dogs... a doberman or rotwieler would be a more vigilant guard dog, but apbt's are friendlier...

[Fear]

Jakio, these are not going to be your family pet, let you daughter feed ‘em dog biscuits dog, you want em mean and vicious, you don’t want to put your hand near them to hit them vicious, Red neck trailer trash lap dog vicious. Also keep them intact, not only will it keep your fence posts free of weeds, but their much more territorial = more aggressive
Rabies wouldn’t be a good thing to give them to increase lethality, drowsiness and muscle fatigue along with brain issues, not to mention the fact that they might test for that, a slow acting poison wouldn’t have much impact on the battle itself but if you could find something that’s lethal to humans but not dogs. Maybe bacteria, feed to the dogs before the assault (just a bit), but prompt treatment would make nil. Just a poison that kills the dog after the battle is expected to be over might work, but as with rabies it could decrease the dogs battle effectiveness.
Another bad thing about collars is that the simple fact that they can fall off, get snared in stuff, and batteries and repair. Dogs could also be used for the removal of evidence from the site, one mangy flea bitten mutt sulking away during a standoff might not be pursued. Or for the disruption of cop dogs tracking you, its dog eat dog out there in the woods. :)

"fetch the glock rover, fetch the glock"

[nbk2000]

RABIES?!

That's stupid. Not only is it 100% fatal to the animal, but there's also a serum that'll stop it from reproducing if injected immediately after being bite, which I'm sure the piggies would get.

Also, the dogs will bite ANYTHING, even their packmates and YOU, while deranged by rabies.

To instill killer instincts in the dogs, feed them some live food, in the form of rabbits, which they have to chase down and tear apart. I'd also say cats, but cats have claws, and they'll use them on dogs, so best not to risk injury to your mutts. Unless you'll cut off the cats paws first...;)

The poisoned teeth (the tooth...remember the tooth... ;)) would only be installed in murder dogs, not torpedoes, nor sentries. The murder dogs have the poison since they're specifically targeted, under pre-arranged conditions, on one person. Torpedoes and sentries are going to engage targets of opportunity at some unknown time in the future.

Pure-breed wolves are very aggressive, but they may be rather unusual "pets" to have in a city, instigating the very police contact you wish to avoid. The hybrids are too unstable to be reliable, being prone to spontaneously turning on their masters, which is a very bad thing.

The idea of having several anti-tracking dogs of your own is good. The dogs sit in ambush besides the trail, and attack the K-9 following your scent, injuring it too much for it to continue the pursuit. Of course, since all K-9's have handlers, the handler is in for a beasting as well. :)

I'm not too sure about the idea of using a dog to carry away evidence. While it may initially do so, it's very likely to come back to the house when it's time to eat, bringing the evidence right back into the piggies lap. That is, unless, you've poisoned the dog, prior to release, and trained it to go to one spot far away, where it'll die, depositing the evidience for your later retrieval.

The idea had occurred to me of using trained dogs as couriers to deliver drugs/collect money without personal risk. The dogs would wait, wherever you tell it to, for someone to approach it. The person approaching them has to hold out the money where you could see it via the "doggy-cam" you've attached to a dog. If it's OK, the person can put the money in the dogs pouch, taking the dope out in exchange.

If they try to get the dope without paying, the dogs maul them, or run away. Dogs are must faster than humans, and could slither through thick brush and narrow gaps, making it impossible to follow them back to their handler (you).

Also, dogs would make for interesting "smart" bombs. Thanks to the ADA, most federal buildings have doors with handles, instead of knobs, so a dog could open a door. The dog is trained to follow voice commands given to it via radio by its handler, who monitors its progress by TV. Commands would be like UP(stairs)/DOWN(stairs)/LEFT/RIGHT/STOP/OPEN(door)/CLOSE(door)/JUMP/ and some others I'm sure.

The dog could be guided through a building to an interior room, where it would be exploded, killing the target.

You may wish to have some other dogs to run with it, who'd act as blocking elements, to prevent interference with the "cruise (missle) dog". :D

Or have the dogs make like ragheads and explode at random throughout the building, each having been trained to go up a certain number of stairs, and through a door, before sitting down and waiting for the bomb timers to expire.

Anyone interesting in training dogs for use as weapons may wish to rent a copy of "The Doberman Gang", a rather chessy '70's movie, that had a pack of dobermans trained to commit a robbery. Fiction, but interesting. There was a sequel too, but not worth watching, since the dogs went "rogue" and took off with the loot. :mad:

Of course, all this assumes you can train dogs, which I haven't the first clue to how you'd do so. Presumably, if the results would be worth the effort, you could get one of those former-soviet military trainers to do so, they having trained dogs for the express purpose of man-killing.

BTW, it's spelt "dachshunds", not "doxhounds".

Jakio, stop with the quotes, we know what you're referring to, and it's incredibly annoying. People who annoy me here have a lifespan that makes a gnat's look positively Methuselan by comparison. :D

[FragmentedSanity]

Lo all :)
While this is in theory an interesting idea, the training required for some of the tasks mentioned would be extreme. Seeing eye dogs are trained intesively for 18 months or so - this is the sort of level of training required. This raises a couple of issues - Aside form the dedication and expertise required, people become attached to anything they put that much work into and may get all sentimental when it comes time blow up fido.
One other thing - if the dog was used for a job - you would need some kind of failsafe, ie. something to kill it once it was finished, because Dogs are ususally very good at finding their way home. Last thing you want is fido trotting home with the cops in toe.
FS

[Mr Cool]

Yes Anthony, it was only yawning. No matter how much I taunted it with a bit of string I couldn't get it to kill, I only tired it out :(.
Maybe dogs are the way to go after all :).

[nbk2000]

Training a dog to be reliable enough to guide a blind person through traffic, and training a dog to crawl under a cop car, is orders of magnitude different in difficulty. :)

[FragmentedSanity]

Lo again
While I agree its not that hard to train a dog to a single task (ie Spot the piggy bomb) Some of the other suggested applications (remotely guiding them with a series of commands, condtioning them to attack specified targets - while retaining the dominance needed to stop them eating you)
Would require a substantial effort. Dont get me wrong - I think Dogs are wonderfully useful - They just take a lot of work.
I imagine a sniffer Doberman - trained to find gear - then intimidate the holder until you can relieve them of it. Just imagine - walking the dog around till he bails up some wannabe gangsta - you then simply tell him if he dosent hand over the gear you'll let Fido get it - how many times have you seen a guy with the goods down his pants :p
Oh and just a quick heads up to anyone who decides dogs might just be useful - If you are like NBK and dont know how to train a dog - dont start with attack dogs - try a labrador or a jack russel or something, Maybe a Staffy if you want something that is a little more intimidating. IMO 90% of cases you hear about where a dog "turned " on it owner could be traced back to defficiencies in its training/handling.
Later
FS

[Fear]

I was thinking more along the lines of infecting them prior to use, but in defense your opponent chooses, making it rather ineffective. More specifically I was looking for elapses of time between infection, and the animal capable of spreading the virus and when symptoms arise, the preferred time being after its capable of being spread and before symptoms appear if possible. The %100 fatality could be the fail-safe for the other methods of disposing of your canine warriors after the battle.
Dogs are simple minded, the most common ways of training them is positive reinforcement and punishing the negative, focusing on the later will make the dog more hostile, just like in children. :)

[Jakio]

Nbk, no more quotes, I'm flexible...

Honestly, packs of mean-looking dogs draw suspision unless you live in the ghetto. If you live in the (nice) city or suburbs, you won't have a choice but to be less obvious! Obviously a dog-missle's personality doesn't matter at all, but if you have a family or non-accomplice friends then you will need dogs that apear to be friendly house-pets, Right? A dozen dogs just waiting to attack vs. 3-5 house pets that love you but happen to be able to rip an invader's throat out? I'll take the latter.

Another thing to keep in mind: Dog fighting is a popular (illegal) sport in the US, and in many areas the police are very inquisitive towards people who happen to have more than 2 dogs of the breeds we are discussing. Not that I care, but caution and secrecy is always good.

[nbk2000]

I just saw some "news" show that my landlord was watching, and they had a segment about "Killer Dogs", these being the "nice" breeds like labradors, spaniels, etc.

The usual hype of exagerated risks, with "300 have died in the last 20 years!". :eek: :rolleyes:

Nigger, please...that many die in a day from driving, so let's hear about "Killer Cars!" instead.

(Speaking of numbers, I read about how 1 in 7 firearm deaths are caused by police shooting people. Now THAT is truely scary, but you'll never hear that on TV.)

Anyways, you do have a point about starting out with a "nice" breed, if you don't know how to train dogs without them turning on you. I'd start with a breed small enough to kick to death if it turned.

Begals (SP?), chiuhahuas (SP?), and other lap dog breeds would be good for starting out.

[Jakio]

"The Koehler Method of Guard Dog Training" is available from Amazon and seems to be the definitive book for our purposes. Apparently, it is a no-nonsese type book and covers basic dog training as well as man-stopping tactics. At around $9 US, I think I might just pick myself up a copy!

From what I have been able to peice together, The Koehler method uses very straight forward positive/negative re-enforcement to teach dogs what is expected of them. When such a system is used the risk of getting bit (or having your dog bite some little girl) is very low. The trained dog n behaves like a loyal agent that knows how to react to threatening people (or piggies, if you will). Also, this system will minimize the 'crazy dog' syndrom that the gang bangers seem to love, but rather will result in a happy dog that attacks with precision when required. I'll take a strong heroic defender over a dumb abused animal any day... dosn't that make sense?


if the interest is there, I'll scan it up :)

[nbk2000]

If you're going to scan it, do a proper job of it. There's a archive thread by machiavelli in which he and I give some pointers on doing a proper job of it. Find it and read it.

And don't ask if you should scan a book, just do. We really hate it when people do that, especially newbies, because it almost always turns into a bunch of one line replies saying "Yeah, I'd like a copy", then newbie never does it, gets banned for lying, etc.

Rather, just scan it, post it somewhere, and people will tell you if it was a good book or not. If it is, you'll get props for it. If not, big deal, you still contributed and that gets you respect anyways.

[Flake2m]

Your ideas about using dogs is intresting.
Though your analogy on comparing swarming insects to dogs made me have an idea.
Why not use insects instead?

You could keep several hives of honey bees in the back yard. All you would need to do to make them swarm and go beserk would be to iritate them or use a chemical tigger. If you had notice that the bacon was going to raid the the house. You could encourage the bees to swarm by turning on a garden sprinkler system that had a resovoir containing a chemical that caused them to be aggressive.
All you would need to do is turn on the sprinkler system. To make it more effective if you shook the hive before the bees were let loose they would be more effective.
You could use swarms of bees as a backup if the dogs dont do there job. The other advantage of using bees is the honey. If you had enough hives the honey could used to help with money laundering.
Besides how many cops are going to believe they have a problem when you say "release the bees"? :cool:

[zaibatsu]

Flake2M, NBK has already discussed the idea of using insects as weapons, and it can't have been much more than a year ago. Do a search.

[Dathai]

If you are attacked by an attack dog it is an easy win for you if you know what you are doing.
Attack dogs are trained by a man in a padded suit acting like a maniac with a gun and the trainer releases the dog and the dog simply locks on to the man and the man just shakes his arm and shouts his head off.But in a real life situation if an attack dog happens to lock onto your arm or perhaps your leg all you have to do is to (lets just say it grabs your left arm) try and manouvre(sp?) your arm so you can see the dogs chest and hit it a punch in the ribs once or twice and the dog will retreat.The reason for this is the dog is only trained to lock onto one of your limbs and not let go until instructed to,so when you punch it the dog has never experienced that before so it will let go and retreat.

[FragmentedSanity]

Dathai - while that might work against a single dog - trained in the methopd you described - I really dont think simply punching the dog a couple of times could be relied upon to discourage attack. Do you have any idea how much damage a dog can inflict? not to mention the amount that they can take and still dish it out! Ive known pitbull's that wouldnt let go after being hit in the head with a hammer -sometimes they dont let go until they are dead.
But the main flaw to you thinking is that your talking about a single dog - if you re-read the eniter thread you'll see that we have been generally talking about a pack of viscious trained dogs. Single K9 units were only referred to as potential suicide bombers, and they arent going to attack you - so you dont need to defend yourself from them.
But I spose your commments could be used to illustrate possible deficiencies training methiods - which is something to think about when training your own.
FS

[Anthony]

The only advice I've ever read regarding dog bites (presuming an arm bite) is not to pull, go "with" the dog, so as to minimise tearing. Dogs seem to hate being forced to walk backwards for some reason, so that might help. The other thing was to punch the dog on the nose. Supposedly it's very painful and maybe the dog would momentarily release its jaw pressure by reflex allowing you to retrieve your limb.

I have reservations of whether that would work on an normal domestic/stray dog, let alone a trained attack dog. Especially one trained to pull you to the ground and then go for the throat!

[stickfigure]

If I were to train an animal for that I would catch a couple Mountian Lion cubs, and have a large forest around my home that they could stalk. They would of cource be trained by and loyal to me and woe to thee who tries to break into my home. Mountian Lions are plentiful throughout the Northwest and lots of people keep them as pets. I know that they are capable of killing nearly any type of dog and are a lot more self-sufficiant than canines.

My freind Sausha is learning to be a bear handler, her Dad owned the Kodiak from "The Bear", "White Fang", and "Legends of the Fall". Bart died of few years ago, but
she is learning to train a grizzly named Tank and a couple of brown bear cubs, Honey Bump and Little Bart. These animals are not only valued "family" members but a source of income for her family. In their case to much would be at stake to make them "attack" animals but for someone vaguely depraved they would make the "ultimate" attack animal.

These animals aren't for the faint of heart, and would be potentially extremely dangerous for the owner. The cages that they keep these bears in have to be located at least 500 feet from their house to keep them from reacting when her and her mom have their periods. The bears smell that and go nuts so it is typically better for them to be handled by men.

It would be interesting to see a bear maul a couple of robbers or thrill-seekers who decided to break in. Or see a SWAT Team shit their drawers when they see a 10 foot Kodiak bust out of your garage.

[Arkangel]

Slightly off topic here, but did anyone see the documentary about the guy who survived meeting a grizzly, and then devoted the next few years building a grizzly-proof suit? There was all sorts of footage of him being shot at/hit by a pickup truck/thrown off a quarry wearing it. When he finally (years later) had the impregnable version he wanted, he set off to find a grizzly, only to discover that he couldn't walk across anything other than a parking lot in it. He set off toward a grizzly over a grassy field, kept falling on his face and having to be picked up, before giving up after a couple of hundred yards:D

[nbk2000]

Mountain lions and bears aren't pack animals, they're solitary hunters, thus they wouldn't be able to co-ordinate an attack like dogs can, more likely fighting each other than attacking your victim.

I saw that bear suit guy. What a hoot! :)

[nbk2000]

Here's an article I scanned about how to assert your dominance over dogs to ensure compliance.

+++++++++++++

One of the more popular questions that I often field as a professional trainer is whether it is detrimental for a gun dog to be allowed to live in the house. It seems that over the years the myth continues to surface that hunting dogs should only be raised outside and shouldn't be allowed indoors for a variety of senseless reasons.

Actually, the opposite is true; communication, attention, bonding, focus, and responsiveness can't be established nearly as well in brief training sessions as it can in day-today living. Dogs that are strictly outside or kennel dogs don't have nearly the relationship or the level of communication with their owners, and their training doesn't generally advance nearly as smoothly, as those that are raised in the house.

This became obvious to me when I noticed the responses to their short daily lessons of the dogs that have been sent to my kennel for training. When a dog is out only for short concentrated periods of training, the dog's eyes reveal his true feelings about the lessons that he is being asked to perform. If he is looking away, yawning, shaking his head, and generally trying to avoid paying attention, he is not learning. (Read, "I Really Don't Want To Do This!" Retriever Journal July/August'99.)

But my personal dogs that are raised in the house as well as being intermittently rotated into their outdoor kennels are more attentive and have learned to read me by paying attention to my every move.

The positive aspects of raising a gun dog pup in the house also far outweigh the negatives when it comes to basic training and socialization. Similarly, one of the many side benefits of youngsters learning housebreaking at an early age is that they also begin to absorb a level of understanding as to what pleases and displeases the "leader of the pack" - their owner.

This requires the pup to begin focusing on pleasing a human rather than being left to be largely self-reliant, as he would if he were raised strictly in an outdoor kennel. And, by learning what pleases a human, he is beginning to learn cooperation and behavior interaction or what is commonly called socialization.

Another positive facet of housebreaking is overall cleanliness. From my experience dealing with a great number of dogs in my training business, it has become quite clear to me that the dogs that are housebroken are much cleaner in their outdoor kennels as well. I have noticed that when a dog comes to the kennel for training, those that have been raised primarily in an outdoor kennel or loose in a fenced yard have little concept of soiling their kennel (their home), and they smear mess up and down the floor and all over the gate and the wire until it resembles a disgusting, sticky brown carpet.

On the other hand, housebroken dogs, even when temporarily required to live in an outdoor kennel run, almost always learn to "hold it" and wait until released to relieve themselves. And. if they do "go" in their kennel, rarely do they smear it all over everything.

All dogs have a need to either be the leader of the pack or to recognize a well-defined leader. And for a new owner to assume this position of leadership, he needs to continually send signals reminding his dog that he is in charge, in the language that the dog understands -body language.

But it is a natural human tendency to apply the relationship practices that work with other humans to their dogs, and when the dogs don't respond (because dogs have an entirely different language of relationship behavior), the owner can't understand why. Often this technique consists of a mixture of punishment or threat of punishment and spoiling - mixed messages that result in confusion in the dog.

With the vast number of dogs that we have in the world today, there is something seriously wrong in the ways that people relate to dogs and most other animals - they believe that physical domination is the total answer to eontrol. But, physical domination is much less effective than psychological domination. And mental domination, because it is such a powerful influence, is far more reliable.

There are certain regions of a dog's body that evoke the response of allowing other dogs or humans to establish or relinquish psychological dominance or leadership over the dog. And just like the body language rituals that dogs perform, contact in these areas is what he understands best. These two areas are his muzzle and the scruff of the neck or shoulder region, which would be called the withers on a horse.

Therefore, to establish yourself in your dogs mind in the dominant position in the peeking order, sufficient correction should be to hold and shake the muzzle along with firmly grabbing the scruff of the neck or shoulder area and shaking hard. Or if you are strong enough and know the dog well enough to be assured that you won't get bitten, grabbing him by the scruff of the neek and the skin immediately in front of his tail and lifting him completely off the ground while shaking. This method does not in any way harm the dog, and it's doubtful that it's even too uncomfortable, so don't worry about being "mean."

That should be the extent of the physical and psychological correction that is necessary. Hitting a dog is certainly not the wav to establish the necessary authority.

Also, if you don't trust the dog to not bite when you grab him, place a muzzle on him to establish control. In fact, the simple act of putting a muzzle on an antagonistic dog will usually change his demeanor from one of aggression to one of total acquiescence. Try it if you don't believe it.

So let's look at some "tricks" that you can employ to help you get started confirming your leadership position, thereby easing your formal training time and in all likelihood your stress level as well.

Eveny so often, when sitting around the house or watching TV, simply stare directly at your dog and make eye contact with him. And don't give in by looking away. Make him feel uncomfortable so he'll look away first. He will
have resigned himself to you when this happens. If he feels uncomfortable and begins acting silly or nudges you to pet him, don't do it - just continue to stare. And, whatever you do, when he finally gives in and looks away, don't relinquish the dominant position you have established by playing with him as a reward. When he looks away and doesn't look back, just move your attention elsewhere without saying a word.

Staring and this non-vocal intense eye contact is an extremely effective method of establishing behavioral control. But be careful - a direct stare can be conceived as a challenge, too. So only do this with a dog that you are familiar with or he may begin growling and get agitated, resulting in the possibility of a confrontation.

Never pet your dog when he nudges you. Avoid the urge to pet him when he requests it, doing so puts you in a position of submitting to him. Pet him when you choose to, primarily on his hack, the top of his head, or by grabbing him firmly on the muzzle and play-shaking it.

Occasionally, put your arm, legs or feet over your dog's back when he is lying or sitting on the floor or even when he is standing. But never allow him to put his feet on you or lay his head on you or even lay his body across your feet. If he lies on your feet when you are sitting reading or watching TV, simply pull them out and put them on top of him or across his back. This may seem very subtle - and it is - but he is being subtle in his attempts to elevate his standing in the pecking order!

Never allow your dog to jump up and put his front feet on you. Again, this may seem Insignificant, but it is unquestionably an attempt on his part to assert his dominance over you. And it undermines your leadership position much the same as when one dog mounts another in a sexual manner or puts his front feet on another's shoulders to establish control.

All dogs, especially at a young age, jump on their owners and other people; but your dog must be stopped from this unacceptable behavior. We have all heard for years that that jumping tip can be cured by squatting down to play with your pup, since the jumping is an attempt to get up to your level. Well, squatting down, just like some of the more customary, but possibly risky, methods of breaking him of the behavior (such as kneeing the dog in the chest or holding his front feet while stepping on his back feet) may serve to alleviate or end the immediate problem, but that is like masking the symptoms, not curing the disease.

New dogs that come to my kennel for training often try to jump on me in an effort to determine their position in the pack hierarchy, but once I begin their formal obedience training and show them that I am in charge, the jumping miraculously stops. Likewise, it is almost comical to watch when the dogs are loose in my kennel yard with visitors. They will certainly try to jump on any kids and maybe the adults, but none would even think ot jumping on me! They know better - instinctive canine behavior will not allow them to jump on the acknowledged pack leader.

Just like jumping up, don't allow your dog to put his mouth on you. This is not to say that he can't lick you. Licking a human on the face or under the chin is a sign of the dog's submission. What I am talking about is nipping or mouthing you. One of the ways that puppies play is by nipping, so it is natural for them to think that you or your family are just part of their pack of littermates. But, this is also how puppies and older dogs assert dominance and determine their status

in the pack. So stop the practice as quickly as it shows itself, and you will assert your position of leadership. Firmly grabbing the pup by the muzzle and giving it a good shake, along with a sharp rebuke of, "No," or, "No biting" continued over a period of time should be sufficient to end the problem.

The next method ot asserting control that I am going to mention might seem a bit disgusting to you but it works; I learned this from a horse trainer. Every now and then, just grab your dog's muzzle, open his mouth, and spit in his mouth! This works especially well on dogs that are being obstinate. I was told that it has the same effect as if Mama canine regurgitated food into a puppy's mouth - and all dogs remember the respect that they had for Mama, I regularly spit in each dogs' mouth when I have them on my force-fetch table; it has the effect of calming them down and reaffirms control.

Similarly, if you don't mind doing it, any treats that you give should be held in your mouth or spit on and moistened with your saliva before giving it to your dog. This, too, I would guess, is suggestive of Mama regurgitating food, and it reinforces the dog's understanding of his lower rung on the peeking order ladder.

Now, of all of the suggestions for establishing a leadership position that I have mentioned, the following might be the either the easiest or the most difficult of all, depending upon your family's lifestyle: Keep your dog off your furniture and out of your bed. If you are to maintain a leadership status, he needs to have his own bed or sleep in his crate, but never be allowed up on your bed or on the sofa.

If you want to play or sit with your dog in the house, go down to his level by sitting on the floor or kneeling down; but do not elevate him to your level, or you will be elevating his status in the peeking order too.

So I guess the eventual question that everyone asks about starting this training is, "How soon or at what age should I begin establishing this form of communication and my leadership position?" And, the inevitable answer has to be: the moment that the pup comes into your life. After all, you are now stepping in and taking Mama's place as the leader of the pack. You have mighty big shoes to fill!

[jeffchem2000]

this thread reminded me of a great russian (I think is was) tactic of strapping explosives to dogs that were trained to run under enemy tanks and blow up the tank. The only problem with this weird idea was that the dogs were trained to run under the only tanks russia had to spare and that was russian tanks. And so these dogs saw the tanks whilst they were in conflict and run under the russian tanks. So this was a waste of a trained tank crew a tank and a trained dog so the stopped the explosive dog thing. It is almost as clever as the sticky grenades that stick to the taget then blow up. The only problem was they stuck to the hands of the soldiers throwing them and off came there arm.

[nbk2000]

Either someone didn't read the whole thread before replying to it, thus making themselves look foolish, or they copied a certain admins words and rephrased it to sound as if they thought them up themselves, thus making themselves walking dead men.

Which one describes you jeffchem2000...2000?! :mad:

[stickfigure]

Ah, Shit! I hear the HED gun being primed.:eek:

[knowledgehungry]

I like the Idea of using big cats as weapons, mainly as an anti burglar use. Dogs give wraning before they attack whereas a mountain lion is quiet, also dogs dont kill instantly, burglar has ability to shoot whereas a mountain lion can break your neck with one swipe. The main reason is actually i just like cats more, cleaner, far more beautiful and generally more intelligent, sure they are harder to train but i doubt it is because they are too dumb. I think they are too smart to let people exploit them. My cat is the perfect example of how intelligent cats can be, and how sadistic. When he catches a mouse the first thing he does is take the live mouse to tthe bathtub, ensuring there is no escape, then he will spend almost an hour playing with it till he kills it.

[yt2095]

Fuckin Eh! too right they do!
I lost all my Lab rats (yes I used to keep lab rats) in one night only to find them all lined up neatly at my bedroom door, thanx to `Reboot` my cat.
I couldn`t shout at her, she thought of me 1`st, and me as Master got to pick the best rats for myself before she would touch them *YUCK*
but hey... it`s the thought that counts :)

here`s what I DO find surprising on this forum though... People that I`ve talked to via Email and seen websites of and from reading some threads on here seem to all prefer cats (when pets are mentioned), and in fact keep them as pets.
maybe it`s just me noticing it more because I have 3 of my own perhaps? but I`ve not seen any mention thier own dog yet (I don`t like dogs as pets much).

coincidence?

[GibboNet]

I'm sure that it is just a coincidence.

I had a dog, till I moved out, and I still have a dislike of cats. Recently, one came in and knocked a bowl of defrosting chicken pieces off the bench, breaking the bowl.

Living with my girlfriend, there were three cats in the house, that pissed around the house every now and again, and always wanted to sleep in the beds, made a huge racket in the middle of the night to be let in and the like.

At my old place, they used to crawl through our sheds, and we always had them hanging around and going through our garbage, which I often had to clean up.

I kept a small pile of broken brick pieces near the back door, but I never managed to more than clip one. I got a video recently, from someone on MSN, (soemone from here I think) that showed a cat getting caught in a trip snare. I should have been doing that a long time ago.

Big cats are a totally different story. They are immensely more powerful, but very difficult to obtain, and even more difficult to train.

I would rather a dog. My dog was loyal to a fault, if I was play fighting with anyone, she would instantly go for them, in a hold, not a bite, but often causing a big bruise and swelling. This caused good friends to get shitty with me on many occasions. She was never allowed on furniture or on the bed, knew her place, was a great guard dog (The power inspection people had to make an appointment to check our meter, they were too afraid to coime in the yard) and wa great company for excercise and the like. I could have trained her much better, but I've had her since I was 10 yrs old, what do you expect ?

Dogs go ahead a long way in my book. Easy to train, no mess, no fuss, and do exactly what they're told. If not, you've done a lousy training job. I'm going to think about some of your points when it comes to training my next dog NBK, I might document it and see how it goes.

[nbk2000]

You know how they have those horse races with the jockey riding some kind of carriage behind the horse?

Well...dogs will pull a sled, right? So why not a cart with you in it? :D

Quiet, small, easy to make, beats the shit out of pedaling a bike, and you've got your own pack of assualt dogs with you at all times. Oh, and it's eco-friendly. :p Just the thing for that post-apocalytpic Mad-Max look. :D

[Jacks Complete]

A giant attack cat might be good.

There was/is a place in England called Longleat, where this stately home was guarded by lions!

If you want to get really silly, try a liger ( from http://lionshrine.topcities.com/otherlions.htm)

http://lionshrine.topcities.com/liger2.jpg

Check out the size of that thing! Combined with body armour and some lion training, you could hold a small army at bay!

[dinkydexy]

Interesting.

However, I think we can safely draw the conclusion that using animals as cheap guided missiles doesn't work...if it did, then how come the Ragheads don't do it? Or the IRA? How come all the soldiers going ashore on D-Day, for example, weren't supported by platoons of bunker-busting poodles, etc?

[Jacks Complete]

I read somewhere about the German and USA attempts to guide a missile by having pigeons peck on a button for steering. It totally didn't work. However, it was probably the interface that let it down!

Pigeons fly really well, but they don't understand the abstract concept of steering! Neither do flys. Yet both steer really effectively.

Below is an article. I didn't bother with the ones about dolphins, but this first one is about the history of sea-lions being used against sea targets.
<hr>
Pinnipeds on parade

New Scientist vol 181 issue 2434 - 14 February 2004, page 48


For Barker and Queenie, it was a chance to get their flippers on some extra herrings. Britain was at war, and fish were in short supply. For Joseph Woodward, sea-lion trainer extraordinaire, it was a chance to prove that these smart, sharp-eared pinnipeds could do their bit for king and country. On 23 February 1917, Barker and Queenie were billed to appear at a public swimming baths in London. The audience was small but discerning - a few boffins and a vice-admiral or two. There would be no cycling, no juggling, no bouncing balls on noses. All the animals had to do was listen for strange sounds beneath the water and locate the source. If they could home in on the faintest rumble or whirr, then they might be just what the Royal Navy needed to fend off the U-boats that were terrorising the nation.


JOSEPH WOODWARD wanted to help. When the first world war began in 1914, Britain was unprepared for the U-boat. Germany's fast-growing fleet of submarines was soon taking a huge toll of British ships, threatening to starve the country into submission. Without the technology to detect U-boats, the nation was powerless to stop them. Woodward, "captain" of the "world famous, original performing seals and juggling sea lions", thought he might have the answer. Sea lions were intelligent and easy to train: they would do anything for fish. If they learned to associate the sound of an engine under water with a handout of herring, they might be able to locate subs lurking around the coast.

Woodward's suggestion, like thousands of others, landed on a desk at the Board of Invention and Research. The BIR, a group of civilian scientists expert in everything from optics and acoustics to psychology and physiology, had been set up by the Admiralty in 1915 in an attempt to address two awkward problems. One was the widespread concern that the armed forces were not making full use of the nation's best brains to help win the war. The other was the question of how to deal with the torrent of ideas from patriotic members of the public.

While the scientists of the BIR carried out research into better ways to fight the war, they also vetted the ideas conjured up in the nation's pubs, clubs and factory canteens - more than 37,500 of them in the 29 months of the BIR's existence. With the U-boat menace uppermost in people's minds, the largest piles of letters ended up with William Bragg, Nobel-prizewinning physicist and head of the BIR's section investigating ways to detect and destroy submarines.

The first challenge was finding the U-boats. Most suggestions were farcical: strong magnets, divining rods held over a map of the coast, a crack force of seagulls trained to spot periscopes. The best hope lay in picking up the distant throb of a sub's engines, but this was easier said than done. Underwater microphones, or hydrophones, were primitive and not very sensitive. To stand any chance of finding its quarry, a ship would have to stop and turn off its engines, making it a sitting duck for the very sub it was hunting. By late 1916, losses to U-boats were escalating. The BIR decided that maybe sea lions were worth a look.

In December, the board sent marine biologist Ernest Allen to Scotland to see Woodward, who was appearing with Barker and Jumbo at Hengler's Circus in Glasgow. Woodward thought the animals would be able to detect submarines by their sound, but Allen had another suggestion: could he train the animals not just to listen out for subs, but to pursue them and raise the alarm? If sea lions learned to associate the sound of a sub with a supply of fresh fish, maybe they could lead the navy's patrol boats to the enemy.

Woodward was willing to give the idea a try. Between performances, he put Barker and Jumbo through their paces at one of the city's swimming pools. Within a week, Barker had learned that if he swam towards a bell or an electric buzzer there would be a fish when he got there. At sea, though, there was a risk the animals might veer off course in hot pursuit of herring. So Woodward designed a muzzle for the sea lions, then added live fish to the pool. In no time, Barker and Jumbo realised they were wasting their time chasing the fish: the only guarantee of a meal was to make for the sound of the "sub".

The next step was to find out how quiet a sound they could hear. Was it as faint as a distant U-boat? Could they really do better than a hydrophone? Bragg asked acoustics expert Albert Wood to find out. Wood was working at the Admiralty research station at Aberdour on the Firth of Forth. Glasgow was only a short train ride away, but getting together with the sea lions was proving tricky.

Woodward planned the trials at a large open-air pool on Sunday 7 January, and telegraphed Wood to tell him. Wood's reply was brief: "No trains Sundays. Any weekday suitable." But Woodward was adamant. "Offer weekend hospitality," he cabled. "Can experiment Sundays only 86-yard park pond." The next day brought a letter of explanation. "Afternoons are full up on account of the daily matinees now established at the circus," wrote Woodward. "I could risk morning work upon them at the baths but if I took them to the park, they might play about with me and not come out of the pond just when wanted. This might make them lose an afternoon's performance." The large pool was vital to the new tests and on Sundays there was no circus.

That Saturday night, Wood was in the front row of the circus watching the sea lions show off their regular tricks. The next day, Woodward and Wood continued their secret work, pitting sea lion against hydrophone with a range of sounds, from a noisy tapping and a loud buzz to a muffled buzzer inside a box and the jingle of small bells from a pony's harness. The hydrophone picked up the louder noises, failed to detect the muffled buzz, and could only hear the jingling bells from a few metres. The sea lions were good at locating even the feeblest of sounds - and while swimming at high speed. The results, reported Wood, "give considerable promise of success".

Even a raw recruit could be useful, Woodward found. Within a fortnight, Queenie, a sea lion lent by London Zoo, graduated as a sub hunter. It was time to show the bigwigs at the BIR what sea lions could do. The show moved to London, where Queenie and Barker convinced a sceptical board that this mad idea wasn't so mad after all. Woodward - joined by his brother Fred and three more stars of the stage - redoubled his efforts.

At the end of March, Queenie and Billiken, one of Fred's sea lions, moved to Lake Bala in Wales. There they homed in on bells and buzzers from a distance of several kilometres. But the work at the lake highlighted a problem. Sea lions may be able to track down a sub, but human observers had trouble keeping track of the sea lions, which surfaced irregularly and briefly.

The sea lions were tagged with bright wooden floats on the end of a fishing line. Life became easier for the spotters, but it was all too much for the sea lions. Dragging a float around was hard work and the lines frequently fouled. They started to rebel. Besides, the weather was growing warmer and it was more fun to explore the lake than swim back and forth when a bell rang. The BIR was worried. Could sea lions be relied on to do their duty in the open sea? In July, Queenie and Billiken were shipped to the south coast to find out.

Queenie began well, but was distracted by passing steamers. Billiken was not even vaguely interested in pursuing a sub. In his defence, Woodward pointed out that Billiken "had some bad herrings about last Friday, and with the following hot spell has been off colour ever since".

The Admiralty was not swayed and the notion of a crack team of sea lions swimming to the defence of the realm was shelved. In the 1960s, the US navy picked up where Woodward left off. And today, sea lions are trained to protect American ships from mines and underwater saboteurs. The USNavy's sea lions saw active service for the first time last year.

Stephanie Pain<hr>

[redbull]

Speaking of attack animals... Back in WWII the US tried using bats as weapons. There were time bomb vests strapped to them. I cant remember if they were HE or incindary
or a mix of the two. Anyway they were tested in the southwest and eventually accidently got out of their cages on a military base and blew up a bunch of hangars and planes. They did what they were supposed to do though... go find a nice place to rest and then go off. In fact some US army folks were saying the manhattan project was silly when we had perfectly good bat bombs to use. Infact at Indian head naval warfare station, MD (USA) I had to show the engineers the website documenting the bat bombs before they would believe me. Now they use that as justifications for any project that gets turned down :-p you funded the bat bombs.... Another funny thing.. that base "lost" a tomahawk missile 9 years ago. Yup... someone came in with phony transfer papers and they loaded it on a flatbed and it drove off. Back to fun with animals.. the bats were dropped in bomb hulls with crates nside and would open at an appropriate altitude and let the bats out over industrial complexes in Japan... I think they were even successfully used a couple of times. Oh I just remembered the name of this project.... project x-ray.

I was thinking of using poisionous snakes instad of dogs. Coral snakes, black mambas,
etc. are quite poisionous... they can be caged until they need to be released. Shooting them with anything other than a shotgun is probally going to be difficult. Since you won't be using rattle snakes, the swat team wont know whats up until someone gets bitten, by then they might be in a heavily infested area. In a place like a hallway there is no getting by them. Police would be seriously delayed and terrified that their dogs would get bitten and the swat team themselves. They would have to stop everything and retreat. I know of cops that "wont do dogs" and I can't imagine any LEO trying to get by 10-15 poisionous snakes. I would prefer a landmine, the sentry that never sleeps, but thats off topic. Also imagine how funny it would be to mail a box with LOTS of angry poisionous snakes to a federal building! :-) They would have to shut the place down for quite a while.... It would be sure to make the news :-)

Im definately on board with the dogs. I was thinking... train the dogs to be attack dogs and use command detonation... fit them with radio reciever and explosive device. I would not feel comfortable putting a tilt rod on a dog. I would think using snakes for assasinations would be easier... get a poisionous snake in a cop's garage, cop car, dog kennel, etc. Depending on the circumstances and breed of snake it might be considered an accident. Dogs are great for keeping looky loos out of your private area. I have been saving up slowly for a little retreat of my own... one of thoes steelmaster buildings that look like airplane hangars. 14 ft tall, 20 ft wide, 60 ft. long. for example. That would only cost about 6000 and you could complete the affair with a large area fenced with chain link fence (maybe some electrified wiring, more discrete than barbed wire / razor ribbon / concertina) and fill the area with your 6 pack of mutts. Personally, I would make them visual deterrants since average people HATE to mess with dogs. The idea of a life monitor is great, I have no idea how to make one but I would buy it :-) Im supposing a pulse monitor with a radio relay.

[raptor1956]

the idea is feasible enough in general. After all, chihuahuas were bred to hunt pigs by going in in large packs. Another idea could be a pack of ferrets. They're agile, will run willingly down a tube or tunnel, and anyone who's been bitten by one has a healthy respect for the pain of the bite. I saw a ferret once hanging off the cheek muscle of a pit bull. The ferret lived, and the dog needed 25 stitches to put its face back together.

[Jacks Complete]

I must say, I have never heard of chihuahuas being used to hunt anything at all.

I can see the trained pack of rats or ferrets working quite well, except for once they get the taste for blood you can never trust them nor handle them again. They draw blood, they get a taste for it, and they bite every time after that...

[nbk2000]

Anyone who's seen "Willard" or "1984" knows how terrifying rats can be. >)

What about training large rats to crawl through air vents and such into protected buildings? The rats have ampuoles of chemical agents strapped to them that will release (silently) after some period of time, causing multiple releases past any filters or sensors that might be installed in the A/C systems. :p

If the rats could be trained to home in on a specific scent, you could mail a letter or item with the scent in it, and the rats would congregate at the air vent to that specific place, creating a very specific targeting. :)

A life-sensor shouldn't be too hard to make. A respirometer would be perfect. A tube goes around the dogs chest, and as the dog breathes, it's chest expands and contracts, causing variation in the tubes length, which are measured.

If the dog is dead or highly excited, the tube either stops varying or varies wildly, either way being an alarm condition.

[Jacks Complete]

nbk2000,
it would be difficult to get the rats through the vents, since they tend to try that normally, so there is a large market for designs to stop them! It might work on a 1960's (or earlier) office building, but it wouldn't be much use on a modern place unless you already had some form of access to drop the "package" inside the perimeter.

The respiration sensor sounds about right. I believe they used to use a mercury fill inside them and detect the resistance change.
You could train the other dogs/animals to swarm on the sound of the sensor (have it radio out as well, in case you are out of earshot), and go totally nuts, so that if one was killed, it would enrage the others, even if it died in a "quiet" manner. You could use ultrasound, which would be amusing as it would be silent to human ears. It would also sort out the people who try those "bark buster" things to scare dogs away...

[Lurking_Shadows]

I was just thinking on a sort of cat that would have to be contained at all time but are naturally vicious and are a relatively good size to keep in a house.

A Bob Tailed Lynx.

They're fast, silent, vicious as all hell and if you had a tunnel system all you would have to do is release them through the tunnels and they'll attack anything in site if you make them made enough or just run away.

But thinking on a high fence to keep kids out they would be cornered and a cornered animal is one scary thing.

Or maybe if you into exotic animals a few wolverines would be more to your taste.

(Sorry a bit off topic but the idea was itching in the back of my mind)

[Bugger]

Do you realize that "dog" is God spelled backwards?

Bugger.

[knowledgehungry]

Another benefit of rats in defense/offense is their use against blacks. In my experience black people are extremely scared of rats. Why I don't know but the black culture just seems to be terrified of them. Someone I know once said "If you could train rats right you could rule this city."

[festergrump]

Someone I know once said "If you could train rats right you could rule this city."
...and if you could teach blacks right you might LIKE this city. :D

Speaking on the topic of dogs as weapons, It's interesting to note how dogs pick up on the slightest body language of their owners. They simply learn the preferences of their master's company (house guests, invited and not) and act accordingly.

Example: I hadn't been to my friends house in a few of years because of the long drive between us. I went there to visit and to meet his then 2 year old Great Dane. Having never met me before the dog barked a few times as I waited for my friend to answer the door. A couple hours into my visit a white van backed into the drive and a black man got out and walked to the door. The dog went fucking BALLISTIC! Apparently the guy was a delivery man and at the wrong address. If my friend hadn't contained the dog in his bedroom before opening the door, that dog might have had his first taste of living flesh.

Now, I happen to know my friend doesn't train his dog to hate blacks. HE happens to dislike them and living where I happen to-- I do also. (likely similar to some Aussies hating the "Abbos"). It seems that the dog sensed a slight tension in my friend and acted upon it. (I could say that the dog hates the smell of jerry-curl, relaxer, or whatever, but that's really not the case. The delivery guy's head was as clean shaven as mine own). My point is simply that you cannot expect cats, rats, bats, or otherwise to cater to your preferences like good old Fido can and will do every time. The other animals just couldn't any care less what you think and are more likely thinking about reward if you have conditioned them to behave in a certain way.

Of course I do realize that all the other animals were mostly mentioned to be trainable and have some weapon attached to them, explosive or such. (and canines, too, from the first post). But animals who can attack with natural means seem more reliable. (If not trainable, then give me sharks with friggen laser beams on their heads!) :D

I happen to like Bull Terriers (remember "Jiggs", or more appropriately "General Grant", the dog from the Little Rascals with a [painted on] ring around his eye? Pit bull). I am looking for one with a good blood-line. They get alot of bad press because of the abuse they so often get from their masters trying to "train" them to protect by ritual beatings, starving, and even feeding them KNO3 (can you believe it? It slowly drives them MAD!...sickening, if you ask me). They're as tame as tulips (unless provoked) when treated with kindness. My second choice would be a Canary Dog, though hard to find.

Mastiffs, Danes, Dobes, Rottweilers, Shepherds, Labradors...all excellent choices for guard dogs. What do the rest of you guys prefer and for what reason?

[Bugger]

The two-legged rats are the worst ones, of course. But, seriously, rats are easily dealt with by poisoning, usually pellets made up with grain or cereal embedded in an edible wax plus an attractant odor and the poison, usually warfarin or bromodifacoum or a similar coumarone derivative. Here in New Zealand, and also Australia's Lord Howe Island, large rat-infested offshore islands, having many tens of thousands of rats - mostly black rats, Rattus rattus, Norway rats, Rattus Norvegicus, and in a few cases the much smaller Polynesian rat, Rattus Exulans (which is predated by the larger species, being extinct on the mainland) - have been entirely cleared of rats by poisoning so that native birds could be reintroduced. Most of them got onto the islands from early whaling or sealing ships, or shipwrecks, in the late 18th and the 19th centuries.

Bugger.

[knowledgehungry]

Labradors as good guard dogs? What do they lick you to death? Rhodesian Ridgebacks are great guard dogs.

[festergrump]

Rhodesian Ridgebacks...WOW, they're very rare around here. I heard something about them being so agile as to be able to walk along the top of a fence. (Can't be true).

Labradors can be great guard dogs. None of your Frisbees will ever be able to escape. Really, though, they're not the most aggresive dogs but a few of them will take an intruder apart in no time at all.

[Davo]

there was a recent article on slashdot about home defence. Some people advocated the use of dogs in protecting their owner. Here is the article if anyone wants to read:

http://ask.slashdot.org/askslashdot/04/09/12/2039244.shtml

A dog trainer also suggested that Chessies make very good guard dogs; here is a quote from him:

"BTW, speaking as a dog trainer and having worked in kennels for many years the very BEST guard dog in the world is a Chesapeak Bay Retriever. They are gentle and loyal with the elderly and children but make the best, most intelligent guard dogs there is. A Chessie is NOT afraid to knock a perp over and stand on them snarling in there face and only bite if necessarly till help arrives without any training in protection work.
Also, they love to "be tough" without actually being mean."

It seems as though german shepards make quite good guard dogs, and sometimes labradors too.

just my $0.02

[knowledgehungry]

"BTW, speaking as a dog trainer and having worked in kennels for many years the very BEST guard dog in the world is a Chesapeak Bay Retriever. They are gentle and loyal with the elderly and children but make the best, most intelligent guard dogs there is. A Chessie is NOT afraid to knock a perp over and stand on them snarling in there face and only bite if necessarly till help arrives without any training in protection work.
Also, they love to "be tough" without actually being mean."


Those arent characteristics I want in a guard dog, while the chessie is snarling in the persons face they shoot them in the head. Mean is quite often nescessary in a guard dog.

[Dank$taVegas]

:p :eek: Hope bumping an old thread like this is acceptable, but since I found this post very interesting and thought maybe I could add some interesting content to this post and maybe able to provide forum member who are interested in this post or were interested with some useful information, since I have been very involved with training working dogs, and have lots of material I could contribute to the FTP on Working dogs, and the training methods used. If this is wrong to bump a thread this old by all mean delete this.



NBK2000:
Of course, all this assumes you can train dogs, which I haven't the first clue to how you'd do so. Presumably, if the results would be worth the effort, you could get one of those former-soviet military trainers to do so, they having trained dogs for the express purpose of man-killing

I have been training "Working Dogs" for over 15 years, and have been breeding working line Doberman Pinschers for 5 years (Small time breeder) but with very highly know working lines imported from Belgium, Denmark. Most of the work I do is for dog sports such as Schutzhund & French Ring Sport I have been a helper/Bite man for many Schutzhund Trials across Canada & the U.S., but have trained and have titles in many other sports (Protection, Tracking/Nose work, Guard/attack, security, Agility & Obedience, etc). My 4 year old Doberman is classified & Titled as a working dog, and I have worked in the past with many K9 Security companies with him. In my time I have had the opportunity to work & help train with various police agencies (lending helper work etc), I am also a member of the local Search & Rescue Team and work with my 4 year old Doberman Pinscher on this team & am doing some work with my female in this organization as well, I also help train new comers to the club who wish to get involved with their dogs (Provided they have the nose and workable characteristics needed for such work).

In my 15+ years, I have been able to meet some very well known dog trainers from all over the world (SV working Judges from Germany/Belgium/USA/Canada etc, and have attended & video taped many seminars on dog training that include (Search & Rescue, Personal Protection, Tracking, Nose Work {Drug Dogs, Arson Dogs, Explosives Dogs & Cadaver Dogs}, Attack & Guard Dogs etc.), but are not limited to these. I have a very large collection of training books, articles & videos on all the above topics if any one is interested in one of the above subjects and would like me to scan some books on the topic let me know which ones you are interested in and I'll scan some material for the FTP. I won't bother wasting time scanning this stuff unless someone express's and interest in one of the above topics. The videos, are on VHS, so if someone is interested in videos, they will have to give me directions or point me in the right direction to get the videos on my computer from the VHS tape.


Some of the most well known and used dogs for such jobs as indicated above include German Shepard's, Doberman Pinschers, Belgium Malinois, Boxers, Rottweiler's, Bouvier des Flanders. Due to the fact that some of these were breed for hundreds of years for this type of work, and it is genetically passed down though the working lines which gives the dogs much higher drives and better workable characteristics. Most dogs sold as pets now a days have had many of the breeds work characteristics breed out of them, due to the fact that a high strung dog with a high prey drive is not welcome in today's society. The two main working lines are that are available in most countries with out too much searching are German Shepard's & Belgium Malinois and would be the cheapest dog to acquire and train. The other dogs listed are rather hard to find with good working lines; so the price for a good working line will be much higher.

So if you were looking for an expendable working dog a German Shepard would be the choice hands down! While Belgium Malinois are fairly cheap, they are very high strung and hard to train and are better left for more advanced trainer who has experience training this type of dog. Same goes for a Doberman & Rottweiler, not to mention that if they get the chance they will take advantage of you and see how far they can go; and being such a big dog that has been trained to attack with such high drives, that can be a very scary situation for a beginner.

Other working dogs are hard to come by i.e. pit bulls, are mostly breed by back yard breeders, and all you get from them are inbreed dogs where no care or planning has gone into the breeding, which are ticking time bombs waiting to go off when you put a dog through the paces of advanced training for personal protection and attack dog training. There are some decent Pit-bull breeder out there that produce very good working stock, but the price will reflect the breeding lines $$$$$$.


The cost of a average working line dog, is anywhere from $2500 - $10,000 + depending on the kind of lines you get and what kind of breeding the breeder does with their lines. This will all affect how a dog handles the workload given to him/her. The trainability of a given dog, workability of a give dog and every other aspect of training a dog to do such a hard task.. It's no walk in the park for a dog. 62% of Show lines (with the work line breed out of them) will fail when put to the hard and demanding training needed to train a dog for work. When training an attack/Personal Protection dog, you can not settle for anything but the best, since this type of training is very hard on a dog, and many will cave under the pressures put on then in the 1st few months of training. Thus one must look for the best work line he can find for the price he can afford. It is often very hard for a novice to pick out a decent puppy, due to the fact they are unaware of what to look for.

A dog that is well trained and looked after is a weapon/force to be reckoned with, they are very loyal and will fight till their dying breath for their master. They can be trained to do many jobs/tasks, the number of jobs a dog can be trained to do is only limited to the trainer/handlers ability to train the dog and how smart he the handler is.

Training a dog to do some of the above tasks, dose require lots of experience, the last thing you want is a vicious dog that has been trained to attack; to turn on you or someone that is not the target. Someone with no experience in training dogs should not try to train a dog to attack, 2 people are needed to teach a dog properly, one being the handler (You) the other being the helper (Trained with lots of experience training dogs for this type of work). Once you have invested the amount of time in training a dog like this, I myself would find it hard to kill the dog when the time came. There for I could find 100+ uses for the dog alive. Which would justify the time and money spent in training a dog like this. Not to mention the cost of all the equipment, food and everything else concerned with raiding & teach a dog to Attack (puppy tugs, tugs, Puppy sleeve bite sleeve, bite suit, new bite bars etc). So it's not for the average person, to be able to teach a dog to perform most of these tasks.

A good alternative is to get involved in one of the many Protection Sports by joining a club, there for you get the experience of other dog handlers and trainers, and you have experienced helpers showing you the ropes. Try to find one of the few clubs who tend to lean away form the sport aspect of the whole protection work, since you want to train your dog to be a "Man Stopper" not a pretty show dog that can bite a sleeve (AKC, CKC and other affiliated clubs :rolleyes: ). You need to train in real life situations I.E. with hidden sleeves, gun fire, and other distractions to ensure your dog will not falter under the stress of a real life situation. I have made many a dog fail, while doing helper work by not offering the bite sleeve freely until he/she committed to the bite by leaving the ground with all four feet. Some even ran away from me with their tail between their legs; And that is poor training on the handlers part. I expect a good working dog to commit to the bite, weather the sleeve is there or not, If one of my dogs, failed to commit to a bite, it would be back to boot camp for them .

There is no better weapon than one that can't be used against you ;) A highly trained attack/personal protection dog is that weapon.

My dogs, are very well trained and aside from the 80+ tricks (Play dead, roll over, speak etc), they can do they have been trained with such commands as:
1)Attack on command & Release on command
2)Track by foot print/crushed vegetation scent, air born scent or from a scent pad (Human, Game, Drugs, Cadavers, some chemicals {Very limited as I do not have the resources to train my dogs})
3)Search on command (Houses/Rooms objects etc)
4)Guard a prisoner/object & Escort a prisoner
5)Follow hand signals/voice commands & Body language
6)Retreave and carry objects
7)Climbe walls (6 meters is the highest to date with un aided help) & Jump obstacles
8)Advanced obedience (Heel, Long down, come, stay, watch etc all done off leash)
9)Follow commands such as Seek (Run strait forward) Right, Left, Stop & Back
10)Open Doors, turn off lights
11)Hearding (Sheep & cows other animals)
Just to name a few……

Now mind you he is only 4 years old and I'm still training him new things all the time. Tasks like this take a lot of training and involve lots of hours and require you to keep training to keep the dog fresh, so I would not conceder a dog like this expendable but a highly trained partner that will help me in what ever way is need to achieve my goal! The time I have invested in training my dogs are years... It starts off when they are puppies all they way into their adult hood. They are never too old to learn new tricks. I spend a good 3 hours per day training each dog. There are no short cuts some dogs learn quicker than others, some dogs just don't have the proper drives to carry out such work and in the process of training them, some can go a little crazy with all the pressure put on them; while other love the challenge and enjoy learning new things. My personal choice for a good working dog is a Doberman Pinscher with a good solid working line. They are extremely smart (One of the smartest), easy to teach, Very powerful, full of energy, Extremely agile and inspire fear in the common man just by their looks & their trigger hair; all this = "Man Stopper"!

As of this my 4year old Doberman Pinscher is titled with: I won't bother to list the CKC & AKC titles as they are nothing fancy and do not compare to these titles. :eek:
SchHA -Novice Schutzhund obedience and protection
Bh -Basic companion dog - traffic sureness
WH -Watch Dog
AD -Endurance
SchH1-Novice Schutzhund qualification in tracking, obedience, and protection
SchH2 -Intermediate Schutzhund qualification in tracking, obedience, and protection
SchH3 -Masters level of Schutzhund tracking, obedience, and protection.
FH1 -Advanced tracking
FH2 -Superior tracking qualification.
IPO1 -International Novice Schutzhund trial qualification.
IPO2 -International Intermediate Schutzhund.
IPO3 -International Masters level Schutzhund.
DH -Service Dog
DPH -Service Police Dog (Local Civilian Police School)
HGH -Herding Dog
LwH -Avalanche Dog (Search & Rescue)
PFP1 PFP2 -Police Tracking Dog
PH -Police Dog (obtained through the Danish Politihundeforeningen, a police dog association open to civilians)
PSP1, 2 3 -Police Guard Dog
RtH -Rescue Dog (Search & Rescue)

Currently working on obtaining:
BIH - Blind Leader Dog (Currently working on getting this through a local organization)

Female Doberman is titled in:
SchHA -Novice Schutzhund obedience and protection
Bh -Basic companion dog - traffic sureness
WH -Watch Dog
AD -Endurance
SchH1-Novice Schutzhund qualification in tracking, obedience, and protection
SchH2 -Intermediate Schutzhund qualification in tracking, obedience, and protection
FH1 -Advanced tracking
IPO1 -International Novice Schutzhund trial qualification.
IPO2 -International Intermediate Schutzhund.
HGH -Herding Dog

Currently working on obtaining this summer & winter
SchH3 -Masters level of Schutzhund tracking, obedience, and protection.
IPO3 -International Masters level Schutzhund.
FH2 -Superior tracking qualification.
LwH -Avalanche Dog (Winter)

I'm sure many users here could come up with a few ideas you could use a dog like this for. I can legally walk down the street with 2 very lethal loaded weapons, that are ready to go off at my whim and no one can say or do anything about it.. ;)

I can find more uses for a dog, than just strapping a set of bombs on his back and blowing him up or having a pack of wild killer dogs, that will keep the police, and everyone including you out of the yard. This kind of thing might attract the attention you are trying to avoid.

I would trust a dog (that is trained and loved) far more than another person/partner. If you treat that dog well he will be loyal to the death, follow your every command to the tee, and will not speak a word of incriminating evidence against you. The dog will not fear for his life like a normal person will so he will complete his mission or will die trying.

Here is to expand on a few to the ideas by NBK2000 and other members....

"Demolition Dog"
How about giving the dog a satchel charge to carry and put down where you see fit, have a small CCTV camera strapped on him (It could be incorporated into a K9 Ballistics Vest) and command him via a ear piece/ or some type of vibration device hooked up to a Dog vest that will vibrate on his right side to go right and on his chest to go forward etc to carry the charge and place it where you see fit (Training a dog to do this would not be very hard at all but would require time, and would not be very expendable), then have him return so you can use him again at a later date. All the effort involved in training the dog, dose not get wasted with one mission, he returns to carry out your next order and to be your faithful servant if you treat him well.

This could even be applied to the cop car situation, have then sent out with a set command, to carry the satchel charge and place it under the piggy's car, then detonate it once they are clear, then they could be used again to carry out more tasks you have planned for them.

"Murder Dog"
One could even use this type of training to teach a dog to be use as a so called "Murder Dog" using a CCTV and a ear piece/vibration device, you could direct the dog and have him attack on command. You could teach a dog where to attack and bite as well. Since Police agencies train their dogs to go for the gun hand (Weapon) or body (Arms/Legs) for law suit reasons, why not teach a dog to go for the neck. One powerful bite and a shake later the guy would be dead or would die very quickly with no noise at all (Maybe a slight bubbling/gurgling sound).
But all one would really need to do, is if he had access to or was able to get his hand on an object (Cloths or something the target has had on his person) use that as a scent pad, and give the order to "Kill" and send the dog lose in the general area of the target. Dogs would need to be highly trained to pull off something like this, such as lots of nose work like air born scenting, Scent pad scenting, attack & kill command just to name a few.

"Sentry Dogs"
Bark or not to Bark…..
Instead of give the cops/intruder the chance to figure out you have dogs, by the noisy & useless barking, train the dogs to be silent sentry dogs, they could be taught to come directly to you and alert you or one could rig up a button they could push to set off a silent alarm, then you could give the dog (s) a command to stalk their pray when they enter the yard.. They would have the surprise attack on their side as well, meaning a better chance they take out more unwanted people.
Many other methods of silent alerting could be taught to the dog as well.

Dogs have an incredible nose, so depending on where you live (Since I live in the country) my dogs are aware of people long before the people are anywhere near my place & they wouldn't even know the dogs were on to them until it was too late. So that can be use to my advantage, you could train a dog to alert you as soon as the smell of humans come to their nose. This could be done with one for the above methods to maximize your stealth plan and attack.

"Tracking Dogs"
Used to track a fleeing target, on any type of surface (Vegetation, Soil, concrete etc). You can train a dog to track in many different ways as well.
Most common was are:

Air Born Scenting- Mainly used by the Police to pin point a suspect, dogs are set with the wind blowing towards them, and are trained to pick up the scent blowing into their nose's and to lead the handler to the location.

Scent Pads-Used if one has a desired scent object. Which could be anything the target has come in contact with.

Tracks/Crushed Vegetation- Follows the scent trail left by a fleeing person, this is by far the slowest form of tracking, but it is by far the most accurate way to track a target.

These are just a few tracking methods, the most common used.

"Scout Dog"
You could use a dog to scout of a given area via CCTV and a ear piece/Vibration device. Good for spotting out an area of interest if you want to stay unseen, Dogs are very quiet when walking around, and their dark coat (Some dogs) will blend in very well to the surrounding area. This could come in very handy when casing a spot to pick out security and their patrol movements.

"Stalking dog"
A dog could be use to follow a target, by use of a GPS system that could be fitted to his vest and monitored by a lap-top GPS receiver, so one could follow a target where ever he is going with out being seen.

"Diversion Dog"
One could train a dog to be a diversion in may situations.
I.E. Being tracked by a police dog handler, have your dog run in the opposite direction with a piece of your cloths dragging behind him, then have him double back, this will royally confuse the tracking dog, as your scent will be going in 2 different directions... Depending on how well the dog is trained this might not work. As it is fairly easy for a dog to see the real path with his nose.

Or they could as NBK2000 has said wait in ambush to buy you the extra time at escaping.

Diversion dogs could be use to make noise in a bush or where ever to attract attention by perusing people giving you the extra time to make your escape. only to have the dog recalled via Voice communications or vibrations to your awaiting escape vehicle.

"Pack Dogs"
Dogs could be used to carry supplies or other items for the handler. Via, a special rigged back pack or sled, cart.

There are hundreds of other uses a well trained, loyal faithful companion could do for you alive rather than dead, if your going to invest the time to train a dog you might as well use him to your full advantage. Use of a Custom fit & Outfitted K9 Bullet Proof Vest (Like the ones I have for my dogs) http://www.k9storm.com/home.html could allow you to hoist your dog in to a given area of operation, and also give him the proper protection from bullets and knifes and other weapons so he can complete his task and return. You could even outfit this vest or similar one with sharp blades and spikes to give the dog an even better lethal attack. (As some dogs were used in was before in wars). Out fit this vest with a CCTV voice & Vibration features, and you have one hell of a trained tactical dog ready for deployment in any situation.

Labradors can be great guard dogs. None of your Frisbees will ever be able to escape. Really, though, they're not the most aggresive dogs but a few of them will take an intruder apart in no time at all.
Well not too sure about that, since I have never seen a guard/attack Labrador, but I'm sure the odd Labrador was a killing machine.

They do have their uses though. In the Viet Nam War, "Combat Tracker Teams" were used; they were highly trained units usually consisting of five men & a Labrador Retriever. The purpose of CTT was to reestablish contact with the elusive enemy, reconnaissance of an area for possible enemy activities, Locate enemy weapon caches and locate lost or missing friendly personal. These small canine tactical tracking units, were usually supported by a platoon or larger force but worked well ahead of them to maintain noise discipline and the element of surprise.

Today Labradors are use as "Fire Arson" dogs, well they are the most common. They train on a food reward system to sniff out common fire accelerants. Which means the dog will only eat if he sniffs of said material. So at a fire crime scene, dogs are used to comb thought the rubble, and once they pick up the scent of a accelerant they are trained to alert the handler by some means (Usually by sitting down). Then they are feed, the handler takes samples of the pointed out area for lab testing.

Dogs are better able to find accelerants on a fire scene than humans with electronic detection devices. Hydrocarbon detectors are sensitive to gasoline components in the parts-per-million (ppm) range. These detectors resemble a flashlight with a wand on it. It has a little vacuum in it that sucks in the vapors as you run it across the floor, it gives you a reading and tells you if it's light or medium or heavy fuel. What it doesn't tell is whether it was there prior to the fire.

In an independent study that was designed to determine the smallest amount detectable by the dogs, they found .01 microliter of 50 percent evaporated gasoline 100 percent of the time, a .01 microliter sample is about the size of a thousandth of a drop.:eek:

[WMD]

Wow, impressive posting. Just one thing I'd like to add, I recently read an article http://www.realfighting.com/1102/index.html that dealt with street fighting tactics of gangs in Paris.

Apparently one of their tricks is to train their dogs to attack a target that is illuminated with a laser pointer. The area of the victim that is illuminated by the laser is attacked.

[Jacks Complete]

Dank$taVegas, wow, that's the longest post for a while! Nice one, very informative.

Do you have any insight into things that really throw a dog off the trail? There was some argument about chilli, pepper, etc. further back in either this thread or another one.

I'd not use a lab as an attack dog, but for anything else, they are great. If you get one in black, they look a lot more intimidating! And if you can get them to bite, they have powerful jaws and a solid head with big teeth, so despite the lack of killer instinct, they would still do damage.

I agree about the Alsatian/German Shepard being the best dog to train up. They are fast, smart and I agree that Dobermans and Rotties are a bit too smart sometimes, especially when the Rottie weighs more than you do!

WMD, that's a neat idea. Certainly a simple thing to train for, just use a pointer to show which of ten pots has food under it, and work up from there. Reinforce it with pad work after they get the hang of it.

[teshilo]

Russian counterterror group "Alfa" used dogs for various means.For control of dog used radio receiver with microphone installed on dog head..Dogs also used by Israeli special group for delivering of demolition charges to arabic terrorists bases ,camp etc.Control also by radio commands transmitted on mick... In more crude version may be used remote controlled electroshock with visible contact .Dog run,run and...:cool: :cool:

[Dank$taVegas]

WOW! I never thought of that, I sometimes play with my Dobermans with a laser pointer. They go ape shit and bite what ever the red dot lands on, but depending on the size of the red dot, they can be hard to see for the dog,& if it is moved too fast they will lose it rather quick, since dogs don't really have too good of eye sight. But that's still a very good idea for close combat. as dogs can get confused with the point and attack command when there are a lot of people around and there is no Sleeve present on the helper/target.

Incorporating a laser pointer into a dog vest which is aimed with a CCTV camera to be turned on when the command is given to light up the target might be a good idea, kind of like how the army will paint a target to be blow up by plains dropping bombs/missiles. Would be something interesting to look into and try out.

All my dogs are trained in German commands but they also know English, CZECH & DUTCH. I have been made fun of by some judges when pronouncing some of the commands since English is the only language I can speak fluently. When competing with judges from various parts of the world they usually like to hear the command in their own language so there is no question in their mind if the dog follows the command. It's also nice since most people don't know the command in various languages and can't try to confuse a dog.

Looks like you live in Germany form your location you gave, the home where the BEST working dogs have come from! Its truly a shame to see what "Show Breeders" are doing the working lines, makes me sick. They were breed for a purpose to "WORK", not too look pretty and stand there. And don't get me going on the CKC & AKC Personal Protection; that is a laughing joke.


Some of the best seminars I have had the honor of attending & video taping were from German working dog judges, and they are the hardest when it comes to judging how a dog performs in the ring. Here in Canada & the USA we have a lot of very bad judges that let dogs pass when they should have failed. The Schutzhund club I train with try's to get the best judges and have flown them in from all over the world (including Germany) for trials & seminars.

On another note, while I have heard people saying it's really easy to through a piece of meat for the dog to eat laced with poison, well for a well trained dog, this will not work, they are not aloud to touch food until you give them the command to eat "In Ordnung Nimm Futter/OK Eat Food" until till that command is given to them, they will not touch even the juiciest piece of food they will not touch. But most pet dogs will not be able to resist this, so in most cases to get rid of the pesky dog, that would work.

Jacks Complete
Do you have any insight into things that really throw a dog off the trail? There was some argument about chilli, pepper, etc. further back in either this thread or another one.

I believe this is the archived post you are talking about, I too have taken a look at this one…
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/water-cooler/5033-ways-mislead-stop-police-dogs-2-a.html?highlight=dogs

The only sure way I know of to make a dog lose a trail is by water such as a fast flowing river, as water will break up the cells/skin partials that one sheds as he his walking. Every step we take we shake loose millions of invisible partials that the dogs can smell/see with his noes, so when one goes into fast flowing water the water will carry off the skin cells with the flow of the water. But a good handler will take the dog up and down the sides of a river bank for quite some ways to try to pick up the scent of the person/target where he has come out of the water.

There are different type's of tracking that a dog can do…
If you are tracking someone in the past 1/2 hour the usually method (Of the Police) will be to "Air Born Scent"- this is done by putting the dog into the wind and having the scent blow to him and the scent of a fleeing person will be strong since more than likely he will be sweating. Then the dog will pin point the smell and lead the handler to the person.

Tracking a person over a 45min/ to a day time frame, they will usually switch their tactics, they will set up a perimeter of a few kilometers/Miles which will be patrolled by people; so say the guy has fled from a car they will bring in the dog, give the command Such (German)/Track, then the dog will pick up the scent of the fleeing person, and begin to track his path, via crushed vegetation/disturbed ground medium & personal scent. The dog keeps a close deep nose to the trail, and only leaving about a 1foot to each side since as the particles of skin fall off they get blown slightly to the side of the track. They move fairly fast, and are not over a given patch of earth for too long.

Anything a day or older will be one tough track, but it's still doable depending on the wind conditions and the amount of humidity. If it has been really windy most of the scent will have blown away if it has been a raniy day, water will trap the scent in the ground making the track much easier. But the above method will be used the posible use of a scent pad if one is avalibule to help refresh the dog of the smell he is tracking. Usually a Blood Hound will be called in for such a track, since they have one of the most amazing noses around, and this skin on their face is designed to fold down over the eyes and nose to help trap the scent and direct it toward the receptors in their nose the skin will also render his eyes useless, so he will be tracking with his nose and only his nose.

Now the chances of anyone having either ammonia/ether or other chemicals on their person if they are running from the cops, is highly unlikely, but I'm sure you chemist out there could think of some highly corrosive/Lethal chemicals one could use to be inhaled that would be fatal to anyone/anything. But since we are talking about an out side situation/environment, the chances of the smell be dissipated are very likely. Meaning nothing short of floating down a fast flowing river will through a dog off in my mind. And still if the dog is Air born scenting and he is down wind of you, he will pick up you scent. weather your in the water or not.

But you can mask you scent to help stay unseen, say there were dog patrols and you were concealed in the bush/grass etc you could use natural scent's animal droppings etc to help cover our god awful smells we give off.

I'm not too sure about the stuff sold in hunting stores, there are many types of scent maskers but have never tried them myself when I hunt, since I usually make it a habit of hunting with my dogs into the wind, and circling around with the wind to keep unseen/smelt.

I'd be willing to conduct some experiments in my free time to see if these so called scent maskers really work. Might be interesting to find out if what they sell works. But with regard to the tracking aspect unless you had a huge tank you could lug around and spray behind you a small bottle of this stuff wont cover you tracks.

On another note or other type of trained working dog:
If your ever attacked by a police dog try yelling one of these at him since most of them are trained in German this command might work, police dogs are trained to listen to other handlers as well. You could also search out other languages for these words, since these are the most common use in the dog handling world. Simple and to the point, easy for a handler to say and easy for the dog to learn.

1) "Out" English, "Aus" (Ouss)German - This is use to make the dog let go of a bite
2) "No!" English "Pfui" (fooey)/Nein (Nine) German-Used to scold a dog and let him know he has done wrong.

Most dogs, will respond to anyone giving off the commands they are familiar with, Being the helper at our dog club, is a dog comes into a blind search and bumps me or in any other way he is dirty I'll yell "Pfui" and give him a hard smack in the face with the baton/whip which is a bamboo reed stick with a whip attached to one end. Which usually will set them straight.



Jacks Complete
I'd not use a lab as an attack dog, but for anything else, they are great. If you get one in black, they look a lot more intimidating! And if you can get them to bite, they have powerful jaws and a solid head with big teeth, so despite the lack of killer instinct, they would still do damage.
You can teach any dog to bite, it's a natural thing for a dog to bite, some are just better than others. Every puppy, like's to chew on things as they are young, and labs being such good gun dogs, and considered good working dogs, usually have very high prey drives (Since they like to chase thing) once would start off teaching the puppy to bite on a tug…. This tug for a puppy would be a face cloth or a leather shammy (the one used in schools to erase the black boards) rolled up and tapped on the ends with duct tap (Home made one) with a string attached to one end. This is use to get help bring active the dogs prey drive (like if he was chasing a duck/rat or other animal) he would attack and bite the face cloth/Animal with his teeth. This is the 1st step in teaching a dog to bit, as the dog grown, you move up to bigger/softer things for them to bite, such as a towel, rolled up as the above but with no string then as the dog loses his puppy teeth and this adult teeth come in you would begin to move on to a puppy tug (which is a jute/burlap covered biting tool. Once the dog has learnt how to target and bite calmly, and his mouth is of suitable size you would move him on to a puppy sleeve and then on to a hard adult sleeve. Usually by 1 year they are onto a Adult sleeve, but some dogs are ready sooner.
This of course is just a quick overview and by no shot close to how you would teach a dog to bite but the beginning process of teaching a puppy. There are many more steps on must take to teach a dog to bite right.


Jacks Complete
Dobermans and Rotties are a bit too smart sometimes, especially when the Rottie weighs more than you do!

I do a lot of helper work as I said in my above post, and in our club we have 2 Rotties, and being the helper means you give the bites to the dog. In Schutzhund there is a drill called the courage test, this is where the helper is at the far end of the field, and the handler/dog are at the other end, some 40-50 years away, the helper has a gun (Blank pistol or a Baton with whip) to make a short story short, the helper runs at the handler & dog the dog is sent to attack, Now German Shepard's and Dobermans and all other dogs come in VERY FAST! But when you have a Rottie coming at you full speed with one thing on his mind (The Bite) that weighs about the same as you or more that's one hell of a feeling; the dog will be coming at close to 30-40 Km's on a full out sprint, and the helper will be running to meet him, and the dog leave the ground, a few feet from you with his mouth wide open, and you have to give him that sleeve in the mouth or else he'll catch what ever his mouth hits. I have been knocked down and acutely hurt from the force of these massive dogs. One of the Rotties actually broke my arm about 10 years ago, when I was 15. Now that I know how to catch a dog and use his weight to spin him, it's not too bad, but its still one hell of a rush. I'd hate to be on the receiving end of an attack like that with no sleeve.

A little off topic but: ***Edited***
As of a few days 2 Mounties were shot and seriously wounded after responding to a domestic disturbance call in Saskatchewan (Spelling), the guy made an escape into the back country. One of the K9 Tracking units is a member of my dog club, he is one of the best trackers I have ever seen, he's a 4 year old German Shepard, and I have learnt a lot of useful information from this handler on police tactics using dogs. I'll try to find a story and post a link here later today.
Here is a recent news post of the incident.
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/11072006/2/national-father-man-suspected-sask-rcmp-shootings-charged-obstruction.html

Looks like he has had success in eluding the K9 officers, Helicopters & other police task forcesc for 4 days. The area is unfamilier to me, but is a large section of land 208-square-kilometre of farmland which is mixed with heavy bush, creeks & swamps. So this type of environment would make it extremely hard for k9 officers to get around, and for them to stay on a good track due to all the water and creeks crossings that would dissipate the scent they were tracking in the area. Hence they would have to comb the banks on both sides of the creek/swamp to try to pick up a track again.

Depending on how long it took K9 officers to deploy their 1st team would also be a factor as there have been heavy thundershowers in the area for the past 4 days, which will wash away all the disturbed dirt and muck along with the scent; which would be the most likely type of ground medium in a swampy area and from what I have heard the area is a very windy place so that will also blow the scent away. So if K9 officers were not on scene right away (which 4 days would suggest) the direction of the suspect might not be know and with such a large area they are working with makes this one tough job. More than likely they would be using Air Scenting to locate the suspect due to the fact it has been 4 days already and no sight of him, which means no tracks to follow. They usually stop the man hunt at night time, and dogs need frequent rested through out the day for food and water.

I know it would have taken K9 officers (the guy I know) who was dispatched from my province at least 7 hours to drive there, once he received the call; less if they flew him down, I'm not too familiar with their provinces K9 teams & how many they have available at their disposal, what kind of means they have to deploy the units into the given ground areas, which would be very un-accessible on foot for the most part.

[WMD]

Since I can't find the edit button right now, here's the correct link for the paris gangwar article:
http://www.realfighting.com/1102/FredPerrinART.html

[Dank$taVegas]

So as I said, in my spare time I would conduct an experiment to see weather the scent masking products worked. Well in my initial tests they seemed to work rather well. Using the scent maskers to mask objects.

I conducted the test on the 3 brands which are sold at the local "Canadian Tire" store
Using all 3 products conducted in 3 separate tests in the same manor as below, on the same types of objects which were on the helper (a friend) for 2 hours prior to applying the products to them. I sprayed 4 large pumps on each side of the objects to ensure full coverage of the articles.
Object 1-Sock X2
Object 2-hankerchif X2
Object 3-glove X2

1)The objects were carried on his person for 3 hours prior to applying the scent maskers to the objects to one of each articles. (3 were sprayed with 3 were left unsprayed.
2)The objects were placed in a box & sprayed with product
3)Box was sealed with packing tape and left to sit for 1 hour
4)Dog were given a scent object (Shirt) and given the scenting command.

All three scent products failed the test. I conducted the test 3 time, with the exact same results. The dogs were able to pick out the scent even when they were heavily masked with the spray (6 pumps on each side of object).

I'm in the process of writing an E-Mail to the manufactures of each of these products to ask them why they failed my test. I'll post information when I receive conformation from companies.

I think I already know the answer, the products are designed to mask the scent to a limited degree when hunting game such as Deer, Elk etc, which to my knowledge don't have a nose that is as powerful as a dog, so on given animals with limited scent capability it more than likely will work.

A little off topic but: ***Edited***
An update, watching the news about the man who shot the 2 Mounties during a domestic violence incident, the man successfully evaded the police, choppers and dog teams that were deployed in the huge man hunt. The two Mounties died from their wounds a few days ago; and to the best of my knowledge the man is still at large with a "Canada Wide Warrant" issued for him.

http://www.realfighting.com/1102/FredPerrinART.html
Thanks for the article it was a interesting read. Some of those gangs have some interesting methods of using improvised weapons. I'm not too sure how well the razor blade attached to the Identification Card would work though (I'm sure it will catch the officer off guard), I'm sure if you were to try that here in Canada the police would be able to use deadly force/lethal force to stop you i.e they more than likley will shoot you, and well most people can't out run a bullet, although some of those black guys can run fast :p .

[Jacks Complete]

Once again, we see that outlawing weapons leaves the outlaws with all the good stuff, and the inventive emergency weapons are being used by them too!

Technically the French police can use lethal force, but they there get a lot of shit for it. In the UK, they don't get any shit, so you are more likely to be shot by police than anyone else, unless you are a gangster fighting another gangster - they seem to leave them alone mostly! Perhaps because they aren't disarmed?

Dogs in the UK are covered by the "Dangerous Dogs Act" and means that bandogs, Rhodesian ridgebacks and a Japanese fighting dog (that has never been imported into the UK) are outlawed. Any dog that bites anyone, even in self-defence, even if on command, is very likely to be destroyed, even if it saved the lawful owner from the thug. Which is absolute crap.

[nbk2000]

I remember reading somewhere that wolves can see the lower end of the infrared spectrum, whereas dogs can't.

Wolves can be trained, just like dogs, and aimed using IR laser pointers instead of visible red.

Of course, the person doing the aiming either needs NVD's to see where they are aiming, or a very good sense of aim.

I also read on some cop forum about how some police dogs in the US were having prosthetic steel fang replacements done, for psychological impact on suspects who see gleaming steel teeth in the K9's mouth. :eek:

[Dank$taVegas]

Dogs in the UK are covered by the "Dangerous Dogs Act" and means that bandogs, Rhodesian ridgebacks and a Japanese fighting dog (that has never been imported into the UK) are outlawed. Any dog that bites anyone, even in self-defence, even if on command, is very likely to be destroyed, even if it saved the lawful owner from the thug. Which is absolute crap.
Holy laws you guys have in the UK :eek:
Handgun ban, full auto ban, dog bans I think the UK is in need of a revolution time to take back some of the things that have been taken from you!


Here in Canada, the only banned dogs that I know of are Wolf breed dogs, and pit-bulls have been banned in Toronto and they are trying to ban them else where.
I know many people who have wolf hybrids, but with hybrids it's so had to tell them apart. Only real way is a DNA test, and they are a little too costly to be running on every suspected dog.
Another way, which I have no sound proof, is the eyes, of hybrids are usually blue, like Huskies and other related breeds which have been cross breed with wolfs.
The Chinese fighting dog you are talking about is the Shar-Pei I think. They are small but pack a punch! I have been bitten by this breed on a number of occasions, one of my friends breeds these dogs, for their size they are a force to be reckoned with and they wont back down from any dog!

They were trying to pass a bill that would make Dangerous Dogs, such as Pit-bulls, Dobermans, Rottweiler's, and the like, require the owner to have a special license to own one (kind of like gun control). Hasn't gone anywhere yet, and I don't think it will.

Here they are fairly lenient about dogs biting people. If the dog has a legitimate reason for biting then all is usually well. Dogs get a few chances, but all dog bites must be reported etc and put on the dogs file. If a dog is a habitual bitter 3-5 un prevoked then he will be euthanized. The are usually quicker to act on the so called Dangerous Breeds.

If someone were to break into my house and they got mauled by the dog, as long as I have signs posted then it is his own fault. If your attack by a person and the dog attacks, it is again the offends fault. As it should be.

It's usualy the owners who catch more shit than the dogs.

also read on some cop forum about how some police dogs in the US were having prosthetic steel fang replacements done, for psychological impact on suspects who see gleaming steel teeth in the K9's mouth.
This is a common thing with working dogs, since many have teeth injuries from the bite work. A dog in one of my dog clubs has 1 steel tooth cap, He lost the top portion of his tooth doing bite work on a sleeve. Cost a pretty penny thought since the amount of work that is needed when doing this, since the prosthetic tooth needs to be anchored in there really well! I'm not too sure if one can just walk in and ask for a steel prosthetic tooth for their dog unless they really need the work done. But the police have ways around that kind of thing, and well money talks, so if you have enough you can get anything.

If you were just looking for the effect a steel cap would suffice, much cheaper, for a fraction of the cost of a prosthetic one. More than likely the police forums were talking about putting a steel cap on the tooth.

The sight of a dog with 4 steel K-9 would be enough to inflict some serious fear in anyone. and make them think twice. :D

I remember reading somewhere that wolves can see the lower end of
the infrared spectrum, whereas dogs can't.
Not too many people know that or have heard about these reports. You knowledge amazes me NBK2000, it's not limited to any single topic! I too have read an article about this, it also stated that Tigers, Lions & Bears are thought to see in the lower end of the Infrared spectrum as well and I'm trying to find it as I write this. Although this is a touchy topic since people/scientist don't seem to agree with each other on this. There are arguments to both sides of the story.

But it is a proven fact that wolfs do see a lot better than dogs, and the reason why Wolves see better than most dogs is because their optic nerve cells are more densely packed.

Here is an interesting site on Dogs & Wild dog eye sight.
http://www.nhm.org/exhibitions/dogs/formfunction/sight.html


Here is something else that is interesting about wolfs:
According to Barry Lopez in Of Wolves and Men, the jaws of a wolf have a "crushing pressure of 1,500 (lbs/square inch) :eek: compared to 740 (lbs/square inch) for a German Shepard." The dentition of the wolf consists of twenty-two teeth: twelve incisors, four canines, sixteen pre molars, and ten carnassials and molars. The canines of the wolf are easily 1-inch (2.54 centimeters) long and known to be up to 2-inch's, strong, sharp, and slightly curved. These are the teeth used for grasping prey. The wolf does not chew its food, using its carnassials to scissor off a piece of meat that can then be swallowed in a manageable chunk.

So if you were looking for a killing machine a wolf would be the best choice of all!

But the work that would go into training a wild animal would be phenomenal! The best methods for training wild animals seems to be the food reward system. This is just what I have read on the internet about people training bears, tigers and the like. Also they must know their place and where they stand (whose the boss) well before they reach their full size and full potential to kill. ;)

[mr_h3x]

I agree. The amount of work to train a pure wolf would be great. In fact it would likely be more trouble than it's worth. The other problem with wolves is that they still have the innate desire to survive, this is why they are more shy than domestic dogs. This is not to say they couldn't be great as general purpose attack dogs.

I would say that the best bet is to find a breed that is already bred for protection work. I hear that it's hard to find a solid german shepherd due to poor breedings.

Regardless, if one was looking for a dog to go after anyone attempting to break into the house or otherwise even come to the door while at the same time having no desire to hurt anyone in the family then the Brazilian Mastiff (Fila Brasileiro) could be a good choice.

This breed will only ever like it's family (read: those who live in the house) and will hate all others. Sure, it could be a hassle, but if you don't expect much company then this wouldn't matter. Without going into great detail that could be read elsewhere, this breed is large and definitely aggressive.

The temperament section of this page: http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/filabrasileiro.htm gives a basic idea of what this breed is about. You don't have to train the aggression into them so it'd be a matter of just training the specifics of the job.

If this much dog is too much for your liking then the South African Boerboel could be easily trained in protection work quite readily by someone with the knowledge to do so while it still has protection qualities bred right in. Some information can be found here: http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/boerboel.htm

Anyway these are two relatively unknown breeds and from my research of them they seem like they'd be ideal for general protection/attack work. I have gathered up alot of URLs about these dogs and while much of it is breeders one can gain alot of knowledge about them if you can weed through the hype.

Really, with these breeds (like many working breeds) you don't have to know much other than to know how to show the dog who is boss and you don't have to starve or beat them (in fact this would be detrimental to their temperament to do so) to get them to be "protective".

[cyclosarin]

I was reading the discussion on using poisoned fangs in "murder dogs" which reminded me of how the komodo dragon sometimes kills its prey.

The komodo dragon is a 2-3 metre long monitor lizard that isn't venomous like snakes but due to its diet and immune system it produces a cocktail of bacteria in its saliva that can cause fatal blood poisoning in a victim of a bite.

What I was thinking was that if dogs are immune to bacteria such as Botulinium would it be possible to culture a biological agent in the mouth of the dog that would poison the victim after the attack?

[nbk2000]

If I remember correctly, the Komodos 'venom' stems from it eating dead things and having decayed and putrescent matter stuck in its craw all the time.

Since the Komodo is a very primitive animal, highly adapted to such a diet, the bacteria and what-not that would kill any mammal are harmless to the dragon.

I don't think such a thing could be done with dogs - feeding them decaying carcasses and hoping for pathogenic bacteria to take root in their mouths.

However, I do know that there are types of pathogens that, while lethal in the blood and tissues, are rendered inert by the acids in the stomach.

It may be possible to supplement the dogs food with such organisms, so that any remaining food bits in its mouth that gets into a bite wound would implant the pathogen into the victim.

As for how long such pathogens would remain in a concentrated enough state in a dogs mouth would be a subject for testing. :)

[Hirudinea]

Since the Komoda is a very primitive animal, highly adapted to such a diet, the bacteria and what-not that would kill any mammal are harmless to the dragon.

I don't think such a thing could be done with dogs - feeding them decaying carcasses and hoping for pathogenic bacteria to take root in their mouths.

Well I don't know about dogs but I can tell you, as a former cat owner, a cats mouth can most certainly support some bad ass bacteria, vets will tell you a cat's bite it the worst pet bite you can get, untreated it can cause a massive infection, but part of the reason a cats bite is so nasty is the shape of their canine teeth, they act as small needles which "inject" bacteria ladden plaque into the wound and then when they withdraw they close up the wound behind them, not allowing the wound to drain, a dog bite would cause more damage, more bleeding and might clean out the wound, but as for a mammals mouth being able to cause a nasty infection, yes it can.

It may be possibe to supplement the dogs food with such organisms, so that any remaining food bits in its mouth that gets into a bite wound would implant the pathogen into the victim.

As for how long such pathogens would remain in a concentrated enough state in a dogs mouth would be a subject for testing.

I would suggest training your dog to eat meat in yogurt (which they would probably like anyway, think of tandoori chicken) and slowly add more "aged" meat to gague the dogs reaction to it, once the dog can handle fairly nasty meat (and in the wild they can handle meat that would kill people) simply feed them this yougurt/meat mixture before you put them on guard duty.

[defiant]

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/9137/fuckinmonkeyoc1.gif

Why train a dog for what a chimp can do?

[anonymous411]

"simply feed them this yougurt/meat mixture before you put them on guard duty."

...and their rancid breath will cause the perps to run for their lives? Sounds like a great way make your dogs weak and give them gum disease. I'd hate to risk harming my animals for something that wouldn't work, since dog germs are usually harmless to humans (unless you want to infect your dogs with rabies). I read a human bite is far more likely to be dangerous than a dog bite, no matter what kind of dog germs they're dosed up with.

Bad meat is for other people's dogs.

[chembio]

Just on the topic of using snakes to assassinate someone...

Obtain a venomous snake, a hollow tube and four sets of clothes belonging to your intended victim.

Make a fire. Let it burn until the embers remain. Plug one of the tube ends with 2 sets of clothes. Insert the snake thru the other end, then seal it with the last set of clothes.

Bury the sealed tube in hot embers. This is to cause suffering to the snake :eek: The scent of the victim will be in the tube because of the clothes.

Remove the snake from the tube after ~2 minutes (experiment with cheaper snakes to get a better estimate of timing) and keep it.

Release it near your victim. The snake will recognize said victim's scent due to the clothes used earlier. The snake then proceeds to kill the victim for causing it suffering.

Just something I read about when I was in high school. Apparently assassins in India do this with cobras.

[NoltaiR]

A simple point I would like to make is that when using a dog (or any attack creature), the animal can serve more of a purpose than to do all the damage. Having a dog as a decoy can cause enough confusion and chaos that the owner can be elsewhere scoping out the enemy without being seen.

Most dogs can bark loud enough to drown out the sound of a rifle reloading in the background...

Also an intestesting idea could be to feed the dog any drug that would numb it to shots fired until actual bleeding would cause death (In other words the animal would attack as long as the body was functional, reguardless of actual pain suffered).

[Jacks Complete]

I'm pretty sure most dogs have a pretty high pain threshold anyway, but any vet should know of something to stop a dog feeling pain. Not sure how you would phrase the question though!

[chembio]

In Michael Crichton's book 'The Andromeda Strain', several 'soundless' alsations were trained as guard dogs for a military biological research facility. According to the book, the dogs had their larynx removed to disable their barking.

A logical-sounding method of creating silent killer dogs :D

[Jacks Complete]

A neat, if expensive, way of doing it. However, I'd think that having a guard dog running around a biological research center would be rather dangerous if there were a leak or anything!

Must point out that it is fairly easy to train a dog to make no barks or whimpers, however. Cries when it takes damage are another thing entirely.

[Alexires]

I would suggest something like PCP or Ketamine (which is a tranquilizer). Mix with some meth or get the puppy going. See, the problem I think might happen would be the same as getting a numb leg.

Have you ever sat on your leg until it was TOTALLY numb? It is virtually impossible to walk. Same with getting a tooth pulled, its virtually impossible to talk. I think that the dog would have some serious problems with movement/attack if you made it feel no pain.

Personally, I would move towards something that lets the dog feel pain, but makes it so it doesn't give a fuck about it.

My experiences with drugs are limited though, so I have no idea really what drugs those might be.

Anyone else?

[junk12]

The best thing of using dogs as weapon, is that it's not viewed as you are wielding the weapon, but as animal is having will of his own. Of course this is all relative and you are still responsible for dog's behavior, but that responsibility can be insured at insurance company. In some countries insurance companies won't insure your dog, if breed is pit bull, rottweiler or similar; but in that case, one can choose next appropriate breed which can be insured and if trained correctly, it doesn't make a lot of difference in the end.

The next thing is how to train your dog properly, so when he attacks, the most damage can be made. If one wants to kill burglar, it is logical to train dog, so that he immediately jumps at burglar's neck and crush it as fast as possible. Of course this kind of training dog won't acquire at dog schools. There they will teach him opposite to dog's instinct (at least aggressive breeds), that it goes for neck. They will teach him to go for arm or legs.

To train dog to go for neck, one of course can not train with living person, but a some kind of doll instead. For begging placing steak at doll's neck would be required, but at the later stages, just some cookie and praise would be enough.

[a3990918]

The best thing of using dogs as weapon, is that it's not viewed as you are wielding the weapon, but as animal is having will of his own. Of course this is all relative and you are still responsible for dog's behavior, but that responsibility can be insured at insurance company. In some countries insurance companies won't insure your dog, if breed is pit bull, rottweiler or similar; but in that case, one can choose next appropriate breed which can be insured and if trained correctly, it doesn't make a lot of difference in the end.

The next thing is how to train your dog properly, so when he attacks, the most damage can be made. If one wants to kill burglar, it is logical to train dog, so that he immediately jumps at burglar's neck and crush it as fast as possible. Of course this kind of training dog won't acquire at dog schools. There they will teach him opposite to dog's instinct (at least aggressive breeds), that it goes for neck. They will teach him to go for arm or legs.

To train dog to go for neck, one of course can not train with living person, but a some kind of doll instead. For begging placing steak at doll's neck would be required, but at the later stages, just some cookie and praise would be enough.

The insurance will only protect you from a civil (monetary) lawsuit not a criminal lawsuit(reckless endangerment, man-slaughter even murder if it can be proved you knew the dogs potential and sicked it on some body) Having a dog trained as you described would be more of a liability that an asset. Doesn't matter if it is on your property and your dog kills a burgler, you will still be held liable for the persons death. This has already happened several times here in the States, it's basically the same thing as boobytraapping a window in your house.

Suppose your "weapon dog" gets lose at about the time a school bus is dropping off kids.:( Don't you know there will be a price to pay for a child's injury or death?? Agressive (Death) dogs have their place, most likely in a military application, but not for the common man to keep as a weapon.

[junk12]

Agressive (Death) dogs have their place, most likely in a military application, but not for the common man to keep as a weapon.
The same could be sad for firearms and explosives.

If one has his property fenced and warning boards "dangerous dog, keep off, private property" hang out, I believe, that owner is not responsible if anyone is so stupid and climb over the fence.

So if at ZOO visitor climb over the cage wall to the lions and lions eat him, is it Zoo fault? I believe not, as long they have properly fenced cage and warning signs.

Just my humble opinion. :cool:

[a3990918]

The same could be sad for firearms and explosives.

Because you put up a fence and signs does not absolve you from criminal or civil liability. Somebody tresspassing on my marked, fenced property can still cause me a criminal suit if they get killed or seriously injured on my property by my deliberate or negligent leaving out in the open a potentially hazardous item ie. a loaded weapon, bottle of nitroglycerin, aggressive dog, punji pit, etc.

Tresspass is not viewed as an offense worth injury or death of another human being. If you shoot and kill someone on your property or even breaking into your house and there is no apparent threat of bodily harm to you or your family, in all likely hood you will be prosecuted. Same with the dog. If there is no threat of imminent danger, and your dog kills a tresspasser chances are you'll see the inside of a courtroom. The big difference between a dog and a gun, is the gun does not attack on it's own volition. A human being has to physically fire the weapon. By putting a deadly dog in your yard the courts are saying you acknowledge it as a deadly weapon and are firing at a would be tresspasser.

I'm not saying it should be illegal to own a deadly dog,(though several communities, including the small town I live in, have outlawed the possession of certain breeds of aggressive dogs)
Example:
Miami Pit Bull Law
It is illegal in Miami-Dade County to own any dog which substantially conforms to a pit bull breed dog, unless it was specially registered with Miami-Dade County prior to 1989. Acquisition or keeping of a pit bull dog: $500.00 fine and County Court action to force the removal of the animal from Miami-Dade County. ONLY an Animal Services Investigator trained in pit bull identification will determine if the dog conforms to pit bull breed standards.
but just like a firearm, it needs to be kept in a safe, secure area such as a pen and from what I've seen so far a fenced backyard does not consitute a pen in most courts eyes.

A number of states make it a specific crime to possess a dog that is trained to fight, attack or kill. California Penal Code section 399.5 makes it a misdemeanor or felony (in the prosecutor's discretion) to merely own or have custody or control of such a dog, if four conditions are met:

1. The dog was trained to fight, attack or kill.
2. The owner or keeper knew of the dangerous nature of the dog.
3. The dog bit one or more people on two separate occasions causing any kind of injury, or on one occasion which caused substantial injuries.
4. The attack(s) resulted from the owner's or keeper's failure to exercise ordinary care.

As to the Zoo, would you expect to be attacked by Lions, Tigers and Bears, Oh My, :eek: while you are walking from one exhibit to another? Didn't think so, but if you climb into the pit, you damn sure better be looking forward to something bad happening.

[gaussincarnate]

If you wanted to have all kinds of fun and did not mind a little bit of construction work, you could always put dogs up in a cage in your attic (over a trap door) and released when the door opens without disabling the alarm system. The dogs come down directly on top of the intruders. The dogs would be immensely pissed off, so much so that no training would be needed to make them dangerous. How would you feel if you were woken up by being dropped ten feet through the floor?

Going back to the idea of kamakazi dachsunds, you could attach grenades to their backs and tie strings to the pins and up to the rafters. Walk in the door and SUPRISE, it's raining dachsunds (with live grenades).

Again, a little difficult, but effective and humerous enough to make it worth it.

[a3990918]

Walk in the door and SUPRISE, it's raining dachsunds (with live grenades).

A veritable "Blitzkrieg" of wiener dogs...:)