Exhaust-System dispersion of Chemical Agents

[MrSamosa]

The other day, I was watching a program about Pesticides on the History Channel. During one part, they were showing how a Huey helicopter is used to disperse Malathion (Organophosphate Pesticide). At first glance, it looked the helicopter had been hit with a missile or was having some other form of technical problems...

But then the narrator explained that the pesticide tank is rigged to disperse the Malathion through the exhaust system, where the heat of the exhaust would convert it to vapor form. This turned on the lightbulb in my head, and gave me an idea:

What if someone were to rig their car exhaust system to disperse such "pesticides"? This would be particularly effective in city driving, since there tend to be many pedestrians condensed into a small space. Furthermore, because of the car's high mobility, it would be hard to pinpoint exactly where an attack took place.

Not only that, but the car allows a fair degree of secrecy. Remember the DC Sniper Shootings, where the gunman hid in the trunk of his car and fired from a hole drilled behind the license plate? Nobody could have guessed where he was- it was the perfect, mobile, sniper nest. Similarly, nobody would notice a rather large chemical tank in the back trunk. Also, this would allow for a LOT of an agent to be dispersed. Think car bombs: they can hold well over 500 lbs of explosives...

Basically, I imagine a mobile chemical dispersion system built into the backs of cars and rigged to disperse the agent through the car exhaust, where it would be instantly vaporized.

[grammarless]

That is a great idea, but if the helicopter looked like it was having technical problems, in other words it was smoking a lot (right?) then your car wouldn't be very secretive. All the police would have to do is follow the car that it bellowing clouds of smoke.

[McGuyver]

Good idea, just drive a beater, cities are full of them. Also, you should be able to turn it off when you have to. You could have some solenoid valves or something. Find a beater that burns crazy oil, it will look and smell perfectly normal as long as the chemical isn't too smelly, but, maybe by then it won't matter how smelly it is;) .

[Haggis]

I was thinking of something similar one day. I thought that agents could be dissolved into regular gasoline and dispersed into the regular supply chain. Bio-agents are out of the question because of the high temperatures achieved, but chem-weapons are more likely to work. My requirements were that it would have to be soluble in volitile organic substances and have a high decomposition rate. I checked through "Potential Biological and Chemical Weapons" and found that (IIRC) Phosgene would be the the most usable. The problem is that it decomposes at 600 degrees, which is way too low to go through the engine cycle. Once I learned that, I scrapped that idea, as a good deal would come out of solution over storage and pumping times also. Theoretically, a large part of a populated city with tainted gasoline could cause some lung injuries and possibly a few deaths. It's not the death toll however, it's the thought that "Poisoned gasoline is everywhere" that would really stir up the ant's nest. The idea posted from Samosa has good and bad points. Good being that the agent would be more concentrated, pure, and dispesed more effectively. Bad being that opposed to thousands of cars milling about, spewing toxic clouds, it would be only one. Your vehical must be well sealed off however...'exaust leaks' are common enough to be concerned over.

[MrSamosa]

I believe the helicopter was "smoking" a lot because of the impurities in the Malathion. Remember, when pesticides are dispersed, they have a lot of other garbage mixed into them to make them more effective...

However, if we are talking Chemical Agents, we can find other means of weaponizing them so that they are colorless on dispersion. I don't imagine that too be too much of a problem.

You brought up the idea of temperature... I don't believe mixing the chemical agent with Gasoline would be a good idea. On burning, most would decompose. That is the reason I believe having a tank in the trunk leading down to the exhaust system would be the most effective way. No doubt though, the exhaust system would have to be secured to ensure that the operator is not killed ;)

[zeocrash]

it may not be a good idea to mix chemical weapons with the petrol, but sey you wanted to spray phosgene. surely you could put a load of dichloromethane into your gas tank, when this heats up in your engine, it reacts to form phosgene then gets ejected in the exhaust.
the only problem i can think of with this is that you'd have to have a way of shutting off the gas, i mean you wouldn't want to be pumping out sarin and suddenly get stuck in a trafic jam with the gas running. you'd also want some protection on your car, decent door seals, filters on your air conditioning system, to stop you getting whacked by your own gas.

[Arthis]

New cars have a standard system to stop incoming air from exterior. This is mainly done to avoid hot air to heat the car while the cooling system is on, in the winter. By the way, as you add another tank to the main one, it would be really easy to make it used or not when you want, I would even say it's not worth mentionning it because it is so obivous...

Because of the heat that is released by the exhaust fumes of the car, wouldn't your gas be rapidly taken to the sky, if I can say that, instead of contamining/killing by-passers ? You would need to modify the exhaust pipe for it to be turned toward people. The coolest the gas the longer they stay to kill by-passers.

[Nihilist]

A lot of people that are into cars, put multiple exhaust pipes on their car, you could do this except have one hooked up to the CW and the other your regular exhaust, from the outside it would look totally normal.

[MrSamosa]

The chemical agent would have to be heated somewhat, especially if it is naturally a liquid. This would especially be the case for say, Mustard or Phosgene Oxime (which is, in fact, a solid at room temperature), Fluoroacetates, or even the Nerve Agents. The idea would be to have them vaporize rapidly, thus the idea of having them being dispersed through a heated exhaust system.

However, now taht I think about it, this may not even be necessary... I do like the idea of Dichloromethane in the Gasoline though :) .

[80r15]

Well, I think it all depends on the nerve agent. With a cup full of VX, one could easily pretend it's their drink, get past "security"(thats what they call underpaid shepple morons who pretend like they are keeping everyone safe), and get to the top of the Sears tower in Chicago for example, and just drain the cup over the side. On a summer day in Chicago there are tons of people outside, and a couple people dumping their drinks over the side would contain enough LDs to do some pretty heavy damage. But then there is the trouble of obtaining VX, but if we assume that you got some or possibly synthesized sarin/tabun, you would still do some hefty damage. Not to mention the economical damage it will cause. The whole city being shut down and clean up crews scrubbing all of the city.
Just another thought...Now I expect to see the CIA at my door in about 10minutes for not being a good sheeple.... :mad:

[Nihilist]

umm.... I don't know about you, but I REALLY don't want to walk to the top of the sears tower with a coffee cup of VX in my hand.

[80r15]

Yeah, now that I think about it, neither would I. But if you had a sealed cup and just had one opening where you could dump out the contents, that would work better than driving a car thats spewing out pesticides. Of course, you could always take a syringe filled with atropine if you think you might spill a little :)

I'm just saying it could be done. I recently went to Chicago, and after the 1.5 hour wait, where they "intesivly" searched everyone, I noticed that I walked through with a cup and they didnt even notice.

But I think NBK2000's idea of mixing it in with beer so some college sluts can get drunk and die is a much better way to go. Plus they would have a hard time tracking you down. The only people who knew where they bought the beer from would be dead, or if not, too drunk to even remember where they were, let alone which beer vender they bought it from.

[zeocrash]

VX is more designed to be absorbed through the skin, therfore it is thick and not very volatile.
FM 3-9, specifies another V agent known as Vx or V sub X, this is chemically similar to VX and Is still a sulphur containing V agent, but it is alot more volatile, so would be much better for arial dispersion.

i recomend that anyone with FTP access downloads Fm 3-9 as it relates to the use and properties of chemical weapons
it can also be viewed here
http://globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/policy/army/fm/3-9/fm3-9.pdf

also interesting reading is
http://globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/policy/army/fm/3-6/toc.htm

[inFinie]

I don't think that you have to provide an external heater when exhausts used. You can just make them touch each other. They both will be heated and agent will be vaporised. If thermal conductivity is not big as expected maybe thermal conductor creams (used in CPU to cooling-metal(form fan) conductivity increaser) used.

[nbk2000]

Chemical rockets have been used as "turbo-generators" to create extremely high vapor concentrations of normally non-volatile agents, such as mustard.

The rocket exhaust is used to create a low pressure zone through a tube into which the agent is sprayed. The extremely hot rocket gases vaporize the agent drops into vapor almost instantly, and carry them out into the atmosphere, where the vapors cool off very quickly.

Sure, some agent is destroyed, but the majority of it is left intact. Concentrations of H were as high as 40x the 10 minute LD50. :eek: At these kinds of concentrations, H acted very rapidly, causing death within an hour, rather the usual days, with almost immediate incapaciting burns.

The same effect would be achieved by using hot engine exhaust to vaporize the agent. But, to prevent the rising of the hot gases over the immediate area, you may wish to mix in ambient air drawn into the exhaust, which will cool it down. That, plus the dense nature of most CW vapors, will keep it at ground level.

But why vaporize it in the first place? Why not simply spray it onto the road surface from spray heads underneath the vehicle? Then the solar heating of the road surface will vaporize the agent for you. Plus, there'd be no "clouds" of stuff that may get you. After all, you'd look mighty weird if you had to drive around wearing a gas mask, eh? ;)

Oh, there's an idea for you, a "safe zone" within a car, created by making a plastic bubble that is shaped for the passenger compartment, and supplied by a filtered air supply at positive pressure. This keeps out the "nasties", while allowing the vehicle operators full mobility, without funky facial gear giving them away. :)

Anyways, a small van could carry a half-ton of agent, easily enough to render a large section of a downtown city into a Hot Zone.