The Beginner's Guide To Acetone Peroxide

[ccw8076]

Thanks, I appreciate it. I knew from my old recipe that you use about as much acid as acetone, but I thought that only applied to HCl, but I guess that I should have seen the light and realized that the amount of one catalyst is the same as another, if it remains unaffected.

[totenkov]

you don't want to make the mistake of adding to much acetone or it with dissolve some of your product, I always use hydrogen peroxide in slight access so this doesn't happen.

Simmer your H2O2 till its one tenth the volume (300Ml down to 30mL). This will improve your yield a great deal. 3% simmered down in theory will give 30%.

[Hinckleyforpresident]

Simmer your H2O2 till its one tenth the volume (300Ml down to 30mL). This will improve your yield a great deal. 3% simmered down in theory will give 30%.

IMHO, I don't think it's worth it. When I tried it the yields were similar. The only difference is a waste of time boiling.

I yield about 12 grams of AP from 600 ml hydrogen peroxide (3%), 100 ml acetone, and 60 ml sulfuric acid (93%). The precursors are so cheap that I don't think it's necessary to have a 98% yield, it's not like the AP is the main charge (http://roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=2311&page=2) :p!

[nbk2000]

I did a boil-down of 2 liters of 3% to 12 ounces and measured the concentration with a densitometer as 12%.

[ccw8076]

I know that Phone (http://roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=2311&page=2) was stupid and that Murphey (http://www.answers.com/murpheys+law?cat=technology) saw his opportunity and took it, but that is just morbidly obese (http://www.tvdeuce.com/2007/08/10/useful-family-guy-quotes/).

[Bert]

but that is just morbidly obese.

Heh, boy- You'll have to speak up, the agnostics in here are terrible!

[Shadowmartyr]

It's good to recrystallise the AP after the procedure an after a long storing period.
Dissolve the AP in hand-warm acetone, filter the solution and precipitate the AP out of the solution with destilled water.
Than dry it covered by a cloth to protect the AP for dust.

This has me a bit confused, I get everything up until filtering the solution and precipitating the AP. Basically I know you dissolve the AP in room temp acetone, then filter the solution. "Precipitate" the AP out of the solution by adding distilled water, how on earth does that work? Probably a very simple question, I am tired however if anyone could explain this to me. :)

And also, couldn't this same method be used for storing the AP, just dissolve in acetone and filter and precipitate it and dry (once I figure how to to "precipitate" it that is =) ).

[The_Duke]

AP is souble in acetone but only slightly in water, adding water to a solution of AP in acetone will cause the AP to crash out of solution, it's not very complicated. :rolleyes:

You are obviously very new to chemistry, I suggest you get to learning some of the basic skills, now...

[Charles Owlen Picket]

This has me a bit confused,
Please check "polar / non-polar solvents", you'll understand it right away. The acetone is miscible in water; that means it dissolves, mixes. The peroxide will not be solvent in water, only in the acetone. When water is introduced, the peroxide gets thrown out as a precipitate. A good thing is to take the above advise and study chemistry as this is very basic stuff but the more interesting things demand at barest minimum some high-school / undergrad chem background. If you want to study on your own, PM me and I can get you some good books to check out.

[Shadowmartyr]

IMHO, I don't think it's worth it. When I tried it the yields were similar. The only difference is a waste of time boiling.

I yield about 12 grams of AP from 600 ml hydrogen peroxide (3%), 100 ml acetone, and 60 ml sulfuric acid (93%). The precursors are so cheap that I don't think it's necessary to have a 98% yield, it's not like the AP is the main charge (http://roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=2311&page=2) :p!

I tried these ratios out yesterday and got very bad yields for using 600ml of H2O2. Measured out and added the acetone/H2O2 and let it chill for 15mins until it was cool. Put the two in a beaker which was then placed in an ice bath with AN. Stirred for 5 minutes or so. Then added 60ml of H2SO4 with an eye dropper, drop by drop while stirring for close to 30 minutes and I kept the temperature under 15 degrees Celsius.

Let it sit in the fridge and 24 hours later I ended up with MAYBE 4 grams of AP. Ughh horrible. I did everything right I'm sure; but a whole liter of H2O2 for one blasting cap isn't working for me :mad: .

Anyway I downloaded Arthis's pdf from the FTP and the table says for 15ml of HP and 200ml Acetone should yield 12 grams or so?? It doesn't say what the required amount of acid that should be used...

I think the sulfuric acid may be the culprit in the first synth, I managed to pick up some HCl from a hardware store so that may give a slightly better yield..

[totenkov]

HCl has always given better yields in my opinion. Get a higher concentration of H2O2, this will vastly improve your yield,

Besides, a few grams is a large enough, if you would like to keep your fingers then keep your AP yields to a minimum.

[HemiDodge]

I made some AP last week. This is my 2nd batch that I have made. My first batch turned out great. My yield's could be higher if I would used higher concentration of H202, but I use what I have.

My goal was to detonate 100 grams of Ammonal with about 1 gram of AP.

I mixed my Ammonal in 3 different ratio's and never did get it to set off the ammonal. However, I took my .22-250 and detonated every mix that I had made of ammonal. 95%/5%, 75%/25% 65%/35% So I know the problem was in my AP. I'll explain how I made it and please correct me where I went wrong.

On my first attempt at the AP, it set off the Ammonal with NO problem.


I use 100 ml of Acetone
I use 60 ml of about 12% H202

I mix those two together and get it down to about 4C

I then add in about 10 ml of 30% HCL keeping the mix always below 8C and usually around 5C or 6C.

Once I have added all of the HCL, I keep it cool for 24 hours. I filter off the crystals and then add another ml of HCl to the mix and then keep it around 4C for another 24 hours.

My yield was good. Not as good as 35%, but I had a nice collection of crystals. After I filtered off the AP, I drained off the acetone/H202 mix. I then washed it with alcohol and let it air dry for about 24hrs stiring it occasionally. When I was left with a fluffy white crystal powder, I placed it in containers.

I tried a hammer test. Definitely impact sensitive. It is definitely fuse sensitive. My containers rip apart that has the AP cap and ammonal in them, but doesn't detonate the Ammonal.

What would cause AP to not have a high VOD? I pressed the AP to what I would consider a safe density. I compressed it more than the first go around with AP.

Any pointers would be appreciated.

[megalomania]

Your AP synth seems fine. Perhaps the acetone peroxide is still too damp, or maybe there is something amiss with your Ammonal after all. It can be hard to diagnose such a problem without being there sometimes.

[totenkov]

How was your cap attached to the main charge? AP is a powerful explosive, but you need it to be touching the actual main charge explosive for a full det.

Your AP also cannot be wet. It may still detonate when damp and properly confined, however you will have a drastic loss of power.

[fiknet]

Something that you may like to check is burn testing the AP, once I found that after messing up the ratios of an AP synth I had got a terrible yeild and the product, even though fully dry, fizzled rather then the characteristic WHOOMPF of AP deflagration, leading me to believe the poor synth had resulted in a large amount dicyclo isomer of AP rather then the 'trusty' o'l tricyclo.

[Rbick]

I've had the same problem in the past. The cause was always damp primary. Ammonal is obviously very sensitive, as you saw from using your rifle to detonate it. It really doesn't take much to get it going. The fact the rifle was able to detonate it rules out the idea that your AN was not properly dried. For ammonal charges of around 50g, I would feel confident using as little as .3-.4g AP pressed into a drinking straw.

I'm not sure as to the environmental factors you are dealing with (temp., humidity, ect.) but in my experience, 24 hours was rarely enough time to let something dry unless a catalyst heat source was used. A heat source to accelerate drying is not recommended for AP ;). I recall a story which I believe was posted here on RS about a guy who tried to use a food dryer or something to dry his AP. It exploded, destroying not only the drying device but also damaging much of his kitchen. He may be eligible for the Darwin awards...

Anyway, I would generally leave my AP out to dry for at least 2-3 days before use. Look for obvious signs of moisture before pressing, such as clumps of AP, which points towards moisture being present.

[Zelot]

Do you remember how you would make rock candy? You know, the supersaturated solution of sugar in water? When the sugar dropped out, it would crystallize onto the string. Would it be plausible to put a string into the AP mix while it was forming the crystals of AP, so they would form onto the string?

[Masonjar Chemist]

I suppose you could dissolve AP in acetone or some other solvent, and while it evaporates off, there is a good chance some would form in/on the string. What would be the purpose for this though? Are you attempting to make a Det-Cord? What ever the case, if you try the above method, take the remainder of AP solution and add water to it to make the AP ppt. back out. Other-wise once all of the solvent is gone, you will be left with one enormous AP crystal, not something I would particularly want laying around.

-Hemi-Dodge, It looks to me like you are using too much acetone. You should be using more peroxide than acetone especially with your concentration of H2O2. It is very likely that some AP was dissolved by unreacted acetone left in solution. At 12% I would recommend having nearly triple the volume of peroxide to one volume of acetone.

[megalomania]

Zelot, there is a good chance AP could do as you say, but not all crystallizable materials work that way, nor might string be an ideal nucleation site for crystals of AP to form. AP does not form large single crystal structures ordinarily. You might have to have some very precisely controlled conditions with special solvents to do that. Unless you plan on doing some x-ray structure studies, I don't think forming giant crystals of AP is a very safe idea.

[Masonjar Chemist]

I suppose a crystal is a bad name for it, but if AP is dissolved in acetone and you allow the acetone to evaporate off, you will be left with more of a solid "chunk" that takes the form of its' container, than a crystal. What ever you want to call it though, it's bad news.

[Bert]

Single crystals of acetone peroxide in the size range of several millimeters were deliberately grown and used in SFX work for miniature explosions on models- Re-crystallize slowly from naphtha, store in refrigerator under water until needed.

These may be used with a nichrome igniter such as a model airplane engine's glow plug. Some sophisticated users have employed fiber optics and lasers for ignition in small, hard to wire areas.

CG effects may have rendered these techniques obsolete, but you've probably seen hundreds of such model explosions without knowing it if you are a fan of older Sci-Fi and/or war films.

[megalomania]

Now that is interesting Bert. I have been looking for any and all references pertaining to acetone peroxide use in industrial, commercial, and professional capacities. Thus far I only found it is used in a few chemical reactions. If you can steer me to any references or sources about the SFX use of acetone peroxide I would really appreciate it. I just hope it's not all trade secret proprietary data.

[-=HeX=-]

Heh, sorry to put a downer on your idea but a large crystal, or joined mass of large crystals is a very bad idea. If you tried to even bend the string or if you dropped it, it would go up, and as this would be linear, the chances are that you will try to bend it, and then bang, no more hands for you!
I once grew a large crystal of AP (trimeric form) about the size of an apple seed and I dropped the test tube I had it in, and bang, glass everywhere. I was stunned, deafened, had blast chest and many glass shards in my leg, so dont do it! Never underestimate AP, the queen of all bitchy common primaries.
Be careful if you do try this though, and wear a face mask and thick gloves.
Just my 2 cents.

[Ethyl]

Sorry if this is a stupid question. I made AP many times using 30% H2O2 and 6% H202. Yesterday I ran out of 30% H2O2 and used 6% H2O2. I mixed 200 ml of acetone, 200 ml of 9% HCl and 180 ml of 6% H2O2. The mix has been siting now in a cold area for 24 hours and only a small amount of AP precipitated. This is very strange. When making AP this time with 6% H2O2 I didn't use my standard ratios for making AP with 6% H2O2 because I forgot them so I improvised. Does anyone know why a so small amount of AP precipitated? I know that perhaps the ratios were not good but I think that even if the ratios are no the best much more AP should have formed from such a large amount of reagents. If lets say acetone is in excess then only the amount of AP that can be made with the amount of H2O2 that is in the mix would have formed. And I am sure that 180 ml of 6% H2O2 can make much more than 0.2 g of AP.

[Big Al]

As posted above be careful. I have been in a rush and spilled some AP that had some acetone in on it. Come back a day later DUN DUN DUN a almost solid crystal of AP the size of a marble. I took a piece of duct tape on the end of broom stick picked it then I threw the whole stick and everything into the fire pit. BOOM ash EVERY WHERE. Scared shitless never gonna let that happen again.

[elektricat]

As I recall, -=HeX=- thats not the only accident you had with AP .Last time you demonstrated its burn rate to us, it deflagrated your eyebrows :eek:. I just want to say not to use green fiskar fuse at less than 1m for detonating acetone peroxide as the sparks that it emitted landed on the AP hence prematurely than was intended, detonated it!

[Alexires]

I have no idea what your "fiskar fuse" is elektricat, but if it is anything like a sparkler (in that it throws sparks off), I've found that wrapping it in black electrical tape helps to dampen the sparks thrown off.

A few trials will tell you how much to use. Too much, and it goes out, but too little and it blows out the side.

[Hexanitro]

So in new year I was making some acetone peroxide, its like the 50th time I made AP, and the finished product has a big damp ball of AP like 7 oz, but this time I was in a hurry so this is what I did;

500 ml of H2O2 15% boil the H2O2 to 150 ml
100 ml of 100% acetone
30 ml HCl 31%

So I added the H2O2 to the acetone and HCl, but this was the error it was like 20-35oC instead of 0oC, so I put it in the freezer so in about 20 min I opened the freezer and it was bubbling and it had some AP floating and it dissolved in the hot liquid, and my house was filled with a gas that made my eyes water and my nose drip, my brother had the same thing, it lasted like for 1 hour. So can any one tell me what was that gas?

I am going to try this at school. So never make any explosive if you are in a hurry.

[Rbick]

Ha I think this gives me an opportunity to share one of my close calls involving AP back in my beginner years :o. I had something similar happen with a mix of 50/50 AP and MEKP. I had a small cap made of about .3g AP to detonate the charge of approx. 16g of the mix. From previous tests, I determined that MEKP itself was not fuse sensitive. I should have thought about the fact that adding AP would make it able to achieve detonation via fuse.

So a spark managed to land on the mix about 3 seconds after lighting it, although my fuse should have been about 10 seconds long. Only being a few feet away, I was hit by small particles of the casing and my ears were ringing for a few days. Not to mention it scared the shit out of me. Luckily I didn't take any shrapnel.

So hopefully one of my stupid past mistakes works as a lesson. Alexires makes a good point about wrapping your fuse in tape if you are using a fuse or fuse type initiation. Or make sure your charge is completely sealed off so no sparks can come in contact prematurely. I now use super glue and duct tape to achieve this. And never let your guard down with AP, its evil!

[Alexires]

Rbick - Yeah, I know how that goes. I had a friend of mine put 150g of AP into a container of about 200g of AN (and froze it) to be initiated by a CO2 canister filled with black powder.

He lit the sparkler (fuse) and hid. After 5 minutes, nothing had happened and he had about 350g of UXO on his hands *laugh*. He went back out to find that the CO2 canister hadn't ruptured, just burnt out.

He pulled the CO2 canister out and put another in and lit it. When he was about 30cm away from the "charge" a spark must have hit the now dry AP and it went off. Luckily, I don't think the AN detonated, or it didn't do it fully, and the AP was wet, otherwise he would have been missing at least a few fingers.

As it was, he got a new hair cut (eyebrows gone and a lot of frazzled hair) and the AP blew the CO2 canister a few metres away. When another friend heard the first one go off and his mate was thrown to the ground dazed, he ran in and dragged his mates ass out of there before the CO2 went off.

Beware AP. It eats n00bs for breakfast.

[Rbick]

nothing had happened and he had about 350g of UXO on his hands *laugh*

Ha UXO, you must be X-military? :cool: That guy is lucky the whole charge didn't go off. If he was so close, I'm assuming it would have killed him.

I had another good one, and it was actually caught on tape. Back in my high school days, we had to make a film for a class. We decided to do a war scene and used ping pong balls filled with AP and or black powder as grenades. You can guess what happened...

A ping pong ball filled with AP and BP was held too long by one of my friends. We were using cheap fuses, and it went a little too quickly, exploding in his hand. Luckily he was wearing a paintball mask. It was blown clean off his face and most of his hair burnt off, along with some skin. He had shrapnel wounds to his neck, hands, torso, and legs. Had it not been for the mask, he would probably be blind. And his hand would have been gone had he not dropped the charge just in time for it to be out of direct contact with his hand. He wasn't permanately injured, but they did ask some interesting questions at the ER, to which we managed to weasle our way around and have them believe it was a firework accident. This was especially hard when they started pulling pieces of orange ping pong ball out of his body.

We kept the video footage of our buddy blowing himself up and put it in the final project. We got an A- if I recall correctly :D. Stupid things done with AP, ah the stories. I've just been blessed with the luck to survive long enough to know the proper saftey precautions needed with primaries, and explosives in general. People who are new to this hobby, learn from these and don't do them yourselves :)

[megalomania]

I wonder, has anyone considered the source of acetone used to prepare AP might be a major cause of failure? Hardware store acetone often contains impurities, as well as varying levels of moisture. Not only do the impurities in commercial acetone vary from brand to brand, but they can vary from lot to lot in the same brand. Storage conditions can also lead to the introduction of moisture.

The impurities in your acetone are also likely a major source of fedgov forensic detection. They have recently developed analysis capabilities that can identify the origins of the reagents used to prepare improvised explosives. Peroxide is unlikely to have much in the way of impurities since it is so reactive, and the acid catalyst would only yield trace impurities. Peroxide does contain acidic stabilizers, usually phosphoric acid, but it too could be changed to a different ingredient. The fedgov may even have devised a denaturant specifically to limit acetone peroxide yields. Since manufacturers do not have to list some minor components, nor do they have to reveal something to protect trade secrets, one really does not know what wicked chemicals are lurking deep in the heart of an AP synth.

Perhaps one of the advanced AP chemists would consider doing comparative yield studies with different sources of acetone, including fractionally distilled and well dried versions therof.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

I can say for a fact that some are much less dry. I use acetone for quite a few other things - (I simply don't make AP) but I would say that there are lots that are far from dry. I don't like to list productive sources but I don't have a problems with unproductive ones. Home Depot's product is wet and acidic, going back to '06. in fact, I particularly avoid Home Depot for chems as they have a policy about that- that is very draconian. Many companies share their bulk suppliers; if anyone has an interest they can pm me for a method some firms use on some containers.

[DONMAN]

I know this as been said a few times on these forums..... If you like having all your fingers never synth AP in excess of 5 grams.

Retards who blow there fingers off because they don't know what they are doing make getting chemicals very hard for the rest of us. Any member of the explosives community that gets media notoriety makes everyone take the heat. The problem with this synth is that its so easy and the chemicals can be found in any household, that any ADD 12 year old can say "OH BOY I GONNA MAKE A GRENADE!!" Then they lose their hand and become the next poster-boy for America's disenfranchisement of the rogue scientist.
(sorry for the rant)

I really dont have a sense of humor about this sorta shit....

[Rbick]

DONMAN- No worries, we all feel the same way

That sounds like a good idea mega. I remember reading on the back of an acetone can from K-mart that stated >88% acetone. I think its reasonable to assume that acetone sold elseware is similar, unless bought at a silly price from a laboratory chemical supplier.

I myself have used acetone from at least 3 different sources, to make AP as well as a number of other reasons. Those three being: ACE hardware, fleet farm, and K-mart, all very common stores around the states. I mostly use the acetone bought from ACE, as it has given me the best yields, although I never reallly thought about why. If and when I have time, I'll pick some acetone up from these sources, as well as a few others, and do a controlled experiment. I look forward to it, but with the new semester starting, it might be hard to find the time :( I'll let you guys know...

[elektricat]

I don't live in Aus, whether that be Australia or Austria ,Alexires, so you might call it something different over there, probably,visco Thanks for the tip anyway!

[-=HeX=-]

Elektricat: Over here where you and I live in Ireland, it is called Visco, my voice must have been slurred on the phone. Elektricats point was that visco sparks hot enough to light the AP.

Mega, the impurities have a huge effect. I was at a science expo recently for a few days and compared some AP samples under a Scanning Electron Microscope while I had the chance. The AP prepared with pure reagent grade acetone had no cracks in the crystals when viewed through the SEM. The AP with the paint shop grade acetone had tiny flaws and the Nail Polish remover AP had cracks in the crystal. The samples were made on site. All other chems used were reagent grade.

Also noticed was a slight discolouration in the impure acetone samples of AP, when compared to the reagent grade sample. I find this slightly worrying.

[Rbick]

HEX- way to sieze the opportunity! Its not often that people get the chance to use an electron microscope. That would worry me as well to see cracks in an AP crystal. Those unstable O-O bonds in the ring structure probably don't respond to well to that :D

I will soon be posting the lab I have been preparing for the last week. I have collected acetone from several different sources and I will be experimenting with the yield, density, and quality. I'm just waiting for my reagent grade acetone to arrive in the mail. I'm using acs/reagent grade Hydrogen Peroxide 35% and 31% HCl 20* BAUME as my controls. I'll be posting the details in a few days :)

My only problem is a microscope. I'm hoping to gain access to one at my college if all goes as planned, since as of now, I'm far too "finacially challenged" to afford a microscope.

[megalomania]

Hmm, if my physics is correct, the slightly larger and denser crystals of acetone peroxide prepared by pure reagents should be able to sustain a shockwave better. The presence of impurities will not only dilute your end product of acetone peroxide, but it can lead to side reactions making who knows what within the crystal structure. This situation is analogous to methamphetamine made from hardware store crap that rots your teeth from all the impurities.

I didn't mean to imply that dry acetone is essential for acetone peroxide synthesis considering there is quite a bit of water introduced into the reaction by the hydrogen peroxide solution. I was thinking along the lines of possible keto-enol tautomerization of wet acetone if it sits around for a long time.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

My only problem is a microscope. I'm hoping to gain access to one at my college if all goes as planned, since as of now, I'm far too "finacially challenged" to afford a microscope.

I picked a cheapy up for next to nothing and started with that. I absolutely love microscopy and now they have digital cameras for a few dollars that will adapt to Chinese stuff.

There is a website that sells off old stuff (pm me if you're interested). That where I bought my Ziess. But my 1st after a long time was a scope that sold for next to nothing. If you remember how to use oil and setup your slides, you will be fine with garbage, especially for examination of crystal structure and big stuff.

Once you get the "bug" for a microscope you will have a Hell of a lot of fun. I STRONGLY RECOMMEND IT....I THINK YOU WILL REALLY ENJOY IT FOR AN ADDITION TO HOBBY CHEMISTRY. I did spend some time finding a scale slide to determine size for pictures...that costs a bit as they are basically tough to manufacture.

The first time you examine what you make and determine physical properties of re-crystallization, you'll get hooked. :)

[Rbick]

I didn't mean to imply that dry acetone is essential for acetone peroxide synthesis considering there is quite a bit of water introduced into the reaction by the hydrogen peroxide solution. I was thinking along the lines of possible keto-enol tautomerization of wet acetone if it sits around for a long time.

I see... In your previous post you mentioned additives the gov't could be putting in acetone to decrease yields. Is it possible they add an acetone isomer that will not yield AP but still obtains its solvent properties? Is there a way to determine this for sure?

I did notice that when I used acetone that had been sitting around for about a year for my last AP synthesis, the yield was much lower and crystals much larger. Would this be long enough for tautomerization? I bought a new 500mL bottle from that source for my little experiment, which I will be posting soon. My acs/reagent acetone should get here today, as well as my new batch of pH paper. :)

[megalomania]

I picked up on the idea of possible acetone additives last week when I found a patent from 2005 about adding compounds to anhydrous ammonia to reduce methamphetamine yields (I posted this patent in the patents thread yesterday). Considering there are patented countermeasures to limit the usefulness of ammonium nitrate, now meth, it is not too much of a stretch of the imagination to conceive manufacturers and the fedgov want to limit acetone peroxide proliferation. Considering how popular AP is becoming, it is a target for the bright, but misguided, minds to develop preventative measures.

My train of thought on this is hydrogen peroxide being a medical product is off limits to contamination by adulterants. People tend to drink the stuff as well. Hydrogen peroxide is also rather unstable, so adding any kind of foreign material could be bad. The range of acids that can be used for AP synthesis would mean everything acidic would have to be contaminated, which is not practical, plus such a little amount is used that an adulterant would be ineffectual. Acids may also eventually react with whatever additive has been put in. That leaves acetone as the most likely product to be contaminated, a more or less inert solvent with properties that work just as fine despite a large percentage of impurities.

The addition of denaturants would be limited to OTC grade products and industrial solvent acetone. Laboratory, ACS, USP, etc. acetone would not denatured, but those are more expensive and closly watched sources.

What triggers keto-enol tautomerization depends on what is in the acetone, this also affects to what extent this happens, but the process can happen in a matter of days to weeks. Technically a very small fraction of a percent of tautomerism happens immediately. A year of moisture and air would be more than enough time, again this depends entirely upon contaminants and storage conditions.

Then again, for all I know, keto-enol tautomerism might play a role in the mechanism of acetone peroxide formation since enol formation is acid catalyzed. I used to have a reference with the complete mechanism of acetone peroxide formation, but I don't remember what book that was anymore.

At the very least I recommend using freshly distilled versions of any industrial OTC solvent, no matter what you use it for. This particularly applies to painting solvents: acetone, toluene, xylenes, ethanol, MEK, etc. Solvents sold for painting purposes are the dregs of the barrel so to speak, the lowest value industrial product they can still sell, so they sell it to consumers. This is fine for cleaning paint brushes, not so fine for lab work.

In the university lab we started buying lower end lab grade solvents and distilling them ourselves. Our NMR analysis showed our solvents were of much better quality than the expensive grades, so there is a lot to be said for purifying your own solvents, even in a research setting. It takes a lot of time and money to bring together the equipment and energy to distill solvents on an industrial scale, money that you the consumer pay for. With a little extra time on the lab scale you can crank out very high purity solvents without the premium price tag.

Maybe next year, if I can sneak in on the machine, I will run a few NMRs on common painting solvents, before and after distillation. This topic of purifying solvents really deserves a thread all of its own since it has nothing to do with this acetone peroxide thread. I should feature some of the books on doing this, or add excerpts to the precursors section of my website. Since I am currently working on adding new energetic materials to the site for the foreseeable future I won't get into it now.

[Rbick]

Then again, for all I know, keto-enol tautomerism might play a role in the mechanism of acetone peroxide formation since enol formation is acid catalyzed. I used to have a reference with the complete mechanism of acetone peroxide formation, but I don't remember what book that was anymore.

Speaking of formation, I just found this article (http://www.technion.ac.il/~keinanj/pub/122.pdf) which you may find interesting if you haven't already read it. It has some information on formation, but more so on decomposition of acetone peroxide, which is apparently much more complex than most think. The byproducts aren't the oxidized C and H atoms like most think. Anyway, its all explained in the article.

As far as books in distillation, that would certainly make me happy. I've been searching for credible sources on distilling acetone and have yet to find a good, detailed explanation.

[-=HeX=-]

Very pure acetone is hard to find here, even off a lab supplier, and I had to leap through many hoops to get 1 litre of it, and I paid €50! Even worse was the fact that I also lost 1/2 of it due to my AP disaster, as one of the bottles was pierced by glass shrapnel.

I also believe that distilling the 88% would not be too difficult, just use a Leibig Condenser and use a hotplate as the heat source rather than the Bunsen Burner. But that assumes that you have access to such apparatus, which many do not.

Regarding the micro-crystalline flaws, the ones with flaws and cracks were slightly more impact sensitive than the 'pure' AP sample, at least they went off with a shorter drop, as I placed the samples betwees pennies and dropped them from varion heights, and I ducked when they detonated.

The paintshop AP went off at 10.2 meters and the nailpolish sample went off at 8.23 meters. The pure sample went off at 12.68 meters. Thar worries me about my usual AP charges...

Mega: How did you distill your reagents in university?

[megalomania]

Our distillation apparatus used a hideous arrangement of high vacuum pumps, still reservoirs, dispensing heads, columns, and many other very expensive things. The arrangement was set up so that solvents could be continuously distilled, the product collected in a protected reservoir (protected from air and moisture), and dispensed without exposing the works to atmosphere. The glassware, which could distill several different solvents from different stills, sharing only inert atmosphere and vacuum connections between them, had its own dedicated fume hood, and blast shield. This arrangement is a bit excessive for casual use, but in high volume work it generates a continual stream of pure, dry, fresh solvent.

Considering the cost of glassware vs the cost of buying high purity solvents, this setup actually pays for itself in time.

Another good reason to distill your own is that you never know how long your stuff sits around, or what bad lots of crap you get from chemical suppliers, even the so-called quality lab suppliers like Aldrich and Fisher. By distilling your own solvent you can insure you have a quality material, assuming you did the procedure right.

[-=HeX=-]

Thanks Mega for the info regarding distillation of reagents. Actually I may look into a setup like what you have described foor my own 'lab', aka, shed. Anyway, I have had a new idea regarding AP.

One would make an NC laquer using FLASH COTTON, not DBSP, and make an AP putty charge, in the size and shape of a pound sterling coin. While wet a 5mm in diameter hole is pushed through 1/2 way (see pic) and left to dry. When dry some NC and a 'Bloody Hell' pellet is pushed in to the hole, and the hole is capped with BLU-Tac to stop moisture.

To use, one would remove the Blue-Tack seal and pour in the 'Bloody Hell' fluid (Just a drop...) and throw ar their target. The 'Bloody Hell' ignites and Viola- Instant diversion!

Merlins of Wakefield carry the products and ship to almost anywhere. Google the site, they carry a lot of good pyro stuff, and dont ask for licences, etc.

[ETCS (Ret)]

A search of the forum yielded no matches for "deteriorated acetone peroxide" or "age deteriorated ap" so perhaps no-one has asked about this yet.

Several months ago I prepared a small quantity of TATP and tested it to assure good result. The result was very good.

Then I left the remainder in an open container, checking it often to see if there were any noticeable physical changes. After a period of about two months there was no visible change in appearance; the white powder remained white and the mass did not shrink.

I then took a small quantity to test for effect and found that it had become inflammable. Applying flame simply resulted in the white powder glowing from the temperature as if it were completely inert.

What could the powder have deteriorated into? Has anyone else here made a similar observation?

[Charles Owlen Picket]

The actual material itself might be difficult to determine because there are factors that could draw off Oxygen (mostly). Occasionally peroxides are referred to as dioxides; loosing one O might make it become an oxide....just a guess.

It's often been a fact of conversation to confuse sensitivity and instability. A true professional quality primary like silver azide is sensitive not unstable. TATP is both sensitive and truly unstable. Many materials used as primary explosives are stable in the chemical sense; simply sensitive. TATP is neither.

[-=HeX=-]

Charles: I agree. TATP is very sensitive but also chemically unstable and therefore a rubbish explosive, unlike silver azide.

However, economically it is a moderately good explosive as it is cheap and has acceptable bang for your buck..

On youtube there is a HMTD Test video where the guy deflagerates HMTD in his hand.

I have used TATP for this recently in sub gram amounts for magic tricks as I am am amatour magician and it is an entertaining trick. Is this blatant idiocy? Mr Kent at kentchemistry.com also uses TATP for this purpose. That is why I believe it is ok. Is it?

[Rbick]

I think it would be safe if you have 1g or less and it isn't pressed in any way. And also being extremely cautious with storing and carrying it.

I think AP needs roughly 2g to detonate in the open without compression, but when pressed, can explode in very small amounts. In ETN/AP blasting caps, I sometimes use less than .1g of AP to start the explosive train. So its a judgement call on your part I guess. I would probably feel comfortable with a small amount for magic shows and in knowing it would never be in a pressed state prior to use.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

That's also been my experience.

But for tricks and such I think there are better materials, frankly. I don't think TATP is the "standard" of any industry :-]
Let's say you want a flash; TATP is too reactive with metal fuels. Let's say you want a "whoosh" effect, TATP is too receptive to sublimation. I could go on....I just think there are better choices and I personally like stable predictive materials. The attraction is the ease with which it's made but in reality, if you really break it down most nitric esters or even flash is just as easy to make.

[Azido]

In fitting with the thread title, I thought it would be appropriate to point out some troubles I had with my first ever batches of ap and how I corrected them.
I tried making ap with 3% solution with no luck at all.
I then carefully boiled some peroxide down to a fraction of the volume (carefully, not at full boil of course) and deduced my new concentration to be around 12% percent judging by reduction of volume.
This more concentrated peroxide had a fantastic yield as compared to the three percent stuff.

In short, I think the three percent stuff needs to be concentrated before use in synthesis.

As for the use of ap in tricks, does the risk really outweigh the benefits? ie the ease of production? (for lack of any other obvious benefits of using 'mother of satan' in anything not wired 60ft away from me) :P

[-=HeX=-]

Azido: for me the benifits are these: low cost compared to flash cotton. Safer for unconfined deflag in contact with skin than flash powder and nitrocotton due to lower burn temp. Easily synthed and used. Impressive effect. And also useble for the detonation of ANNM.

Disadvantages are: Unstable and prone to detonation when in 1 gram piles. Scares the shit outta me when handeling amounts over 2 grams due to my accident. Bad storage over long times.

Otherwise I find that it is good and easy to work with and it is reliable. Also I find that at the moment it is perfect for me because I am low on chemicals and explosives and supplies so therefore I find it good, for now.

[Azido]

That's fair enough. But you must be using tiny amounts of ap for an unconfined deflag in contact with skin.. Considering DDT is at like 2 grams. I think I read somewhere that the detonation of ap was interesting because it was endotropic. Endotropic? yeah I think that's the word..

[totenkov]

Endothermic?

I highly doubt that.

[Azido]

Endothermic?

I highly doubt that.

"It is the rapid creation of gas from a solid that creates the explosion. Very little heat is created by the explosive decomposition of TCAP. Recent research describes TCAP decomposition as an entropic explosion[8]" wikipedia.org

So I forgot the 'do'

[TORCHed]

found the solution. Thanks...

[Cindor]

I think that considering AP like endothermic is a myth, other way it wouldn't set off Al powder for example.

[Rbick]

Entropic yes, endothermic no. There is a big difference. I think the pressure produced from the expanding gasses, in which this case they would be acetone and ozone, would create heat energy as it compresses the surrounding area. Pressure produces heat energy, just like when you press on snow and it melts, then refreezes into ice.

So while it might be very little heat, there is some, making it at least slightly exothermic.

[-=HeX=-]

Sorry to bump this thread, however this didn't fit elsewhere.

As some of you may know, I had the misfortune of having a fairly bad accident with AP recently, which resulted in surgury. The Visco fuse was faulty and burned WAY too fast.

I sustained 3rd derns to my thumb, and index finger on my right hand, and got a biece of shrapnel in my middle finger. The shrapnel was plastic and had to be surgically removed.

The charge was 20 grams in a film cannister. It was 2 inches from my hand. I am attaching a picture taken immediately after it went boom, and it had just started to bleed. I apologise for the shite quality. The blood masks the burns.

[totenkov]

I'm sorry to hear of your accident Hex. Let is be a learning experience however.

NO PRIMARIES FOR MAIN CHARGES!!!

I hope this isn't an end to your hobbies, be careful!

[Charles Owlen Picket]

Thank you for posting that. Hope you heal up & all becomes a lesson learned. With that I hope others heed some damn advise and don't play with shit in a cavalier manner. 20 gr a few inches from the hand COULD have removed the hand if the circumstances had differed....

Notice the flash burn damage. The actual blast & tissue rinding is not in evidence to the degree that I've seen on a photo of a "SSS cap" blast inches from the paw. With that worthy, he really did loose some of his hand in that the blast tore some of the bone and ligamental tissue with the skin. Scorch damage was high as well. NOTHING could be done except cut further to reduce gangrene.

It's tough for some people to take a fucking leek with their left hand let alone learn to write and type! Girls generally don't like stumps either.

[Swissdude]

Sorry to hear about your accident. I am making a large about 6kg charge of ANNM in a plastic tube now my question is how much shrapnel and how far will it fly across my yard?
And I know if you want a question answered you have to contribute a little, well I'm planning to do so if I'm allowed to.
If yes I'll glady make a detailed tutorial on how to make AP putty blasting caps with quality pictures etc.

[-=HeX=-]

Charles: you just said it all there. I wont be making those mistakes again, and yes, it does make life hard. Writing especially, typing is moot cos i type slow anyway. However, the surgeon says it will be grand in 4 weeks.

The main thing is however, that people here might learn from my screw up and then they may avoid making my mistakes and learn the hard way.

They have but away the burnt flesh and removed all the plastic frags from my hand. Maybe plastic is not as safe as we were led to think? TATP certainly isnt :P

This also shows that the detonation of TATP is in no way heat less in any share or form. I wish it was though!

[Billy Bones]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3_5xBACMVnI

ONLY 9,5 grams of AP. I read every single post from you, guess what…….

[Charles Owlen Picket]

There are a number of things (about the chemical, the physical material) that I personally don't like about TATP. But one thing that cannot be avoided in any discussion of energetic materials is that in it's very simplicity, the synthesis lends itself to shoddy technique - which lends itself to higher percentages of the dimer and greater levels of sensitivity.

In the very fact that it can be synthesized with garbage can materials, it is created by those who would really benefit from taking their time or expressing greater care, or simply slowing down, etc. The cost of the precursors being so very low; the end result is not valued. Cost & effort being absent...this then is the prescription for a disaster as it often describes a cavalier attitude toward the material. It's actually a natural progression. It costs shit, it's easy to make, so fuck it.

I've said this before and I really don't like TATP. But I can't make it go away. I CAN say that the level of professionalism of the synthesis, if taken MUCH higher, would yield the trimer & reduce associated issues......

[megalomania]

One should ALWAYS approach energetic material synthesis with the thought foremost on the mind that this stuff can, and will, blow up. Just ask yourself a very important question while you do any lab work, "what will happen to me right now if there is an accident?" Thinking about glass flying into your eyes can remind you to put those goggles on. Thinking about your face being burned by flames can remind you to keep that bucket of water or extinguisher handy. Thinking about your hands getting cut or burned by acids can remind you to put gloves on. If you always have the worse case scenario foremost in your mind, you tend to realize what safety precautions are for, and to use them.

There is a saying, a Democrat is a Republican who has not yet been mugged. Applying this to lab safety, it is a damn shame that many people do not take safety seriously until after they experience an accident. Every accident is avoidable.

When I was a child I had a safety catalog that sold motivational lab safety posters depicting people experiencing horrible accidents. Even to this day when I am pushing a piece of glass tubing into a stopper I can see the look of terror and pain of the guy with the broken glass stuck through his hand, blood spurting all over his lab coat... Those posters are exactly why I visualize what could go wrong when I do any procedure, and thinking about a broken glass tube sticking through my hand always gets me to use the proper safety precautions. Spending the extra 20-30 seconds to do something the safe way is far preferable to the agony of an accident.

Being complacent about explosives is probably the most dangerous thing you can do. Thinking that you are safe because it has never blown up before is usually what everyone who loses a hand or eye is thinking before the accident happens. Sooner or later you will have an accident, something will go wrong. The severity and extent of the accident depends on you.

[Barnacles]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3_5xBACMVnI

ONLY 9,5 grams of AP. I read every single post from you, guess what…….

Are you calling him a liar based on this video? I am sure he can protect himself but...

First the hot dog is hardly anything compared to a real human finger, in terms of resistance to blast. This is like comparing a kleenex to a 2x4 in terms of ease to tear, literally. Human bone is about as hard to break as wood. The flesh around it is also quite a bit more durable than anything in a hot dog. I could probably tear a hot dog apart with not much more force than needed to rip a kleenex try to do that with your hand.

Second, I've seen plenty of pictures/videos that show people's clothes blown off even shoes without scratches to there bodies...Remember the force from a blast is decreased exponentially as it moves away from the initial point of detonation. Also other factors are at play, such as the density, casing material, and the fact his hand was moving away from the charge when it went off. Hell I seen suicide bombers blown in half but otherwise fine, with there shirts on. Or dead people naked. soo many factors, soo many possiblities, its pretty much impossible to discount his claims with a video of a leather glove being torn by a blast.

Anyway I don't quite get what you are trying to prove.That he picture is fake and its a lie entirely. Or is your claim via this video, that he blew his hand up with less than 9 grams of TCAP, and came here to lie about it...or do you think he is trying to claim he is supermanish without saying it. I know you left that rather open ended but I feel confident that was what you saying (being fake at least).

Also someone was saying they were thinking plastic was "safe". I don't regard anything as safe, if you put enough velocity behind anything it will cut right through you. If you think about it, it is just gasses such as carbon monoxide in the explosion that can rip tanks apart. As best as I understand its the air molecules cutting because the "mass " or energy they have when moving 8000 meters per second is so great that it might as well be a train moving 60 mph.

Edit all this typing, and I forgot to give you well wishes!!! I wish you well LOL, and may this be your last physical contact with a shockwave... lol That reminds me of someones signature who is quoting a mega saying lol,
It is the man who has blown himself up more than once that you should not trust.

EDIT 2 it is the correct quote and it is MEGALOMANIA who said it

[Rbick]

I had a buddy have a flash bang (military issue, not home made) go off about an inch from his hand. These are quite powerful. It blew his gloves, which were oakleys if I remember correctly, which are very durable, right off his hand. I mean it was SHREDDED. He suffered serious burns but didn't loose any fingers.

3 of my buddies were also in a small room when an enemy hand grenade got rolled in. All 3 men got up instantly after the blast and shot the fucker to death, only sustaining minor shrapnel injuries.

Barnacles is right, weird and crazy things happen with explosives, due mostly to so many physical factors being at play. Of course it is ok to be wary, but I wouldn't be so quick to accuse somebody of lying before fully knowing the facts ;)

EDIT: And Hex, I'm sorry about your accident. But in a way it was beneficial for others to see and realize how dangerous and unpredictable explosives are, especially primaries. I'm glad you get to keep all of your fingers and that the authorities havn't taken an interest in you.

[-=HeX=-]

Thank you barnacles, and I believe that I just got really lucky. I am not trying to impress anyone here, in fact it was a stupid and moronic thing to do. I will they that video later and judge it myself.

However I did have that accident and that photo was not a fake. In fact, now that the bandages are off I will take a photo of the worst injuries, which have healed well, thanks to the surgeons.

The ballistics of a hotdog and a hand are entirely different! Hands have bones. Hotdogs dont. Enough said! You guys can work it out yourselves!

Again, I thank all of you for your kind wishes for my rapid recovery.

[Billy Bones]

Ok folks, take a ordinary raw chicken then place 10 gr. (not 20) pressed in film canister AP about two inches from him and push the button. Before years I was stupid enough to light the grass around one detonated only to the half detonator with AP (maybe with one gram primary left), guess what…..

Even flash powder can easily take one or two fingers, here we talk about primary. I brought this video not the show the damages on those funny – wood boned hotdogs – but to show the torn upon the explosion thick leather glove. Imagine the soft, warm and easy to rip human flesh. Those 20 gr. AP are more than enough to blow your whole hand and as for me, to take a picture of my bleeding wounds will be the last thing I will do after such an accident .Don’t get me wrong people, I just want to share some thoughts. That’s it.

[Rbick]

Don’t get me wrong people, I just want to share some thoughts. That’s it.

I understand, I was just pointing out that crazy things happened. I'm not trying to personally insult you at all, and I don't doubt that 10g can totally pulverize a chicken. My friend who had the flash bang go off in his face was probably saved because it was an inch away from his hand and not in direct contact. Little things make a big difference.

So chances are that if his [Hex's] hand was lighting a fuse, his hand was further away, at least a few inches, depending on the fuse and lighter length. The short time he may have had to try and pull away could also make a difference.

I couldn't imagine someone lying about hurting themselves with explosives. But if I ever do hurt myself, I promise to take pictures and post it, assuming I'm not unconscious or dead ;)

[Barnacles]

blah,blah quoting whole posts is against the rules

I find it rather discourting that you fail to try to understand this but rather put more time into trying to discredit his claims, while thinking that a hotdog and leather glove represents a hand. you seem to forget that explosives power decreases EXPONENTIALLY as you get farther away from the epicenter. For instance 90 grams of nitro is equal to .36 pounds of TNT. At three feet there would be 263 psi of overpressure. At 5 feet, 56 psi. but at the center its millions!!!

There are pictures around here where someone had 5 grams of HMTD I believe go off DIRECTLY in his hand and it didn't look to much worse than HEX's.

Personally the first thing I do with every wound is take pictures as with many people I know do, I am a member of another forum called Ogrish, thats all people do there, and that board has about 200,000 members. I mean its not like hes got other things to do, why not take 2 seconds to document history. Chanes are hes never going to see that again so may want to have a visual record.

Anyway, this is getting carried away. I believe him and see no reason why not to ,as do other experienced members of the forum. You do notg ' lets leave it at that. You wont do to well calling people liars on your journies. Especially when one is offering a safety lesson and taking embarrasment to offer us advice.

[Billy Bones]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Bones
blah,blah quoting whole posts is against the rules


Could you tell me where I post this bull shits above, Barnacles! No, I’m really fuckin’ mad!

--- “put more time into trying to discredit his claims”---I made only two post (two for you) and this will be my last. Frankly, I don’t give a damn about the whole story. I came here to share my experience and to find some other people who are really into this extreme hobby. Now I see that maybe this was not such a good idea!

[Barnacles]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Bones View Post
blah,blah quoting whole posts is against the rules


Could you tell me where I post this bull shits above! No, I’m really fuckin’ mad!

--- “put more time into trying to discredit his claims”---I made only two post (two for you) and this will be my last. Frankly, I don’t give a damn about the whole story. I came here to share my experience and to find some other people who are really into this extreme hobby. Now I see that maybe this was not such a good idea!

Are you on drugs? not only do you display a complete lack of common sense in that thinking a hot dog is like a human hand, but you cannot even figure out what is going on above. Maybe explosives is not the field for you....

try to re-read my post and the quote, if you can't figure it out its best you probably leave and never touch an energetic again. The quote is very self explanatory, I really have no clue how you do not understand, and you get mad over this ok buddy.

[Billy Bones]

Maybe because English is not my first language and because I’m too fuckin’ primitive to figure out your fineness intentions, buddy! And don’t you talk me about energetic materials and common sense ---- “There are pictures around here where someone had 5 grams of HMTD I believe go off DIRECTLY in his hand and it didn't look to much worse than HEX's.”----- Great fuckin’ contribution to the whole forum! Damn, I leave this place!

[Barnacles]

If you don't understand things in English to well than maybe, just maybe you should not explode in a rage when you do not understand something. There was no intentions there, it was basic wording... You are far to angry a person to work with this stuff anyway so its probably for the best. I know I wouldn't want you working on a charge beside me knowing you could get enraged because you don't understand something. Besides you are probably anywhere from 16-18 years old and immature at that, I am guessing based on your overreactions to everything. So take a few to calm your head and mature a little.

I by no means am the most calm or mature person, but I would definately handle this situation better than this if I were in your position. In a debate be prepared to defend your position, especially when calling someone as liar.

Nothing against the younger crowd as many of you are very mature.

I would say my statement there is a rather good analogy to this situation. A almost identical explosive goes off in near the same quantity. and the only real factor that was different is that one guy was holding it while the other was not.
if anything is a good reference it is that. Not to mention that HMTD is more brisant from the tests I've seen

[totenkov]

Great fuckin’ contribution to the whole forum! Damn, I leave this place!
Reply With Quote

My I love it when people say this....they are back the next day, ready to argue till the end of time about some retarded point. Calm the hell down and remove yourself from this thread should you feel the need to. Its like you're having your period or something. Fight and flame elsewhere, we can get along fine without you.

[Barnacles]

Fight and flame elsewhere, we can get along fine without you.

I wonder is this directed at both of us? I feel as though I am maintaining composure rather well here, and presenting my case justly without malice. He does seem as though he is having a period or something. Really angry people should not play with explosives while mad.

Sorry for stirring somewhat of a shitstorm up. but I feel my point is justified and that HEX should be defended by those who believe him or anything like this for any matter should be defended. This forum is about debating and figuring things out through conversations is it not.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

Whether justification or defense is warranted or not is not at issue. This is not TOTSIE or what have you and the discussion has been blurred by too many off topic remarks. It's just as simple as that. Some of the Moderators here don't have that title attached to them. So simply heed the advice and move on: no harm no foul.

[-=HeX=-]

4 simple words. I am not lying. But back to the subject of TCAP. I personally make mine to the finest purity and stability possible in my lab and I personally have on space on time for non professionalism as concerns labwork. Sorry for the short post, I have to go somewhere.

[totenkov]

No barnacles;

I was not referring to you. Just letting the 'tard that was fighting with you know that its time to sit down and shut up.

Lets keep on topic guys, this is a thread dedicated to AP, not fighting.

[-=HeX=-]

Swissdude: for a blast of that size be at least 50 meters away, behind a brick wall. View via a periscope. Record it! I want to see that.. Good luck!

Barnacles, Totenkov and others: thank you all for sticking up for me. That newb willl learn soon.

Charles: I wonder if we could try to find out the best way to synth pure trimeric acetone peroxide and make a new guide.

Mega: My old science teacher used to have a pile of accident photos on a flash drive for her slide show on safety. She is the only pyro-ish science teacher that I've ever had yet.

All: maybe some of the 20 grams was burnt in the deflag to det process. Maybe that saved my hand. I really wonder.

I got complacent because I had extensivly tested acetone peroxide and thaught I knew everything. I didn't.

You can never know it all. But only a fool doesn't try.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

The issue is tit-squeeze simple: tighten up the synthesis. The major beef I have with quite a few discussions of TATP is that as a very simplistic synthesis, the experimenter does not pay attention to details but actually goes in the opposite direction and gets sloppier!

If any synthesis were to be monitored closely for temperature (perhaps within less than 4-3 degrees C) the results would be a damn sight better than to simply guess. With TATP if the temperature is closely monitored; you've got your trimer!

The fact that it's a SIMPLE synthesis does not make it any less important to hold to some fucking standard of workmanship. In complete truth NG is a synthesis that is just as simple but it holds true lab level expectations of the experimenter. TATP does not demand such standards & we see the results.

I have had some wonderful results from various experiments and that is NOT due to some level of knowledge that is miles above others but rather that I pay attention to detail - consistently. The most seemingly difficult project is not so if taken a step at a time. The most simple project can be made an interesting learning experience if the level of professionalism is maintained.

This then leads to the question: "why make something a learning experience if all I want is the end result?" ...When working with ANYTHING potentially dangerous, if you are not in a state of learning you will be in a state of doing by route: a prescription for disaster! ....'nuff said?

[Swissdude]

Swissdude: for a blast of that size be at least 50 meters away, behind a brick wall. View via a periscope. Record it! I want to see that.. Good luck!

Barnacles, Totenkov and others: thank you all for sticking up for me. That newb willl learn soon.

Charles: I wonder if we could try to find out the best way to synth pure trimeric acetone peroxide and make a new guide.

Mega: My old science teacher used to have a pile of accident photos on a flash drive for her slide show on safety. She is the only pyro-ish science teacher that I've ever had yet.

All: maybe some of the 20 grams was burnt in the deflag to det process. Maybe that saved my hand. I really wonder.

I got complacent because I had extensivly tested acetone peroxide and thaught I knew everything. I didn't.

You can never know it all. But only a fool doesn't try.
Hey thanks for the advice and I'll surely record the sucker goin' off. And to the other guys:Is it okay if I would post a tutorial for the AP putty blasting cap?

[Rbick]

Yeah of course its ok. If you have something of quality to contribute, do it!

As for the 6kg, thats is a lot of ANNM! I would personally be at least 200m away, and down in the prone position. Let your camera do the dirty work and place it closer, say 30-50m :D What are you using for your blasting cap? Casing? Give me more details! ;)

[-=HeX=-]

Details would help because then we can suggest refinements to your charge. For my safety distance I only factored in casing shrapnel, and not the shockwave. Is it going to be buried? How deep? What type of mud (Wet, sandy etc)? What loading pressure? What ratios? Etc...

Actually I remember the first time I detonated TATP. I didnt know anything about safety. I stood 4 meters away from a 10 gram charge, confined in a tic tac box. It was well pressed. The shockwave was like god had slapped my internal organs. It was cool but scary. What was your first experience with TATP?

Swiss: tell up more before you set it off. Much much more.

[Swissdude]

Okay guys here are the details:

-Charge of 6kg ANNM ratio: 300ml of pure nitromethane on 1kg of ammoniumnitrate.
The charge itself will be confined in a thick gray PVC tube.
-Blasting cap will be a 6.5cm long steel pipe which is 1cm wide, it's crimped in one end and filled with ~3 grams of AP putty.
Because the AP putty dries rock hard I don't have to seal the uncrimped end any further. I will use 40cm of 3mm quality visco for ignition.
-Location, a piece of land which our family owns that is far away from civilisation and pesky cops. The soil itself is probably slightly wet forest soil.
Here some ugly picture from the blasting cap:
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/8269/71041408hb0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
And here an ugly drawing about the main thing:
http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/936/50845323yd6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Deceitful_Frank]

Swissdude: for a blast of that size be at least 50 meters away, behind a brick wall.

Just my two cent's worth but about two years ago I set off a 280 gram charge of ANNM placed atop a concrete wall and stood at a measured 30 metres to experience how the blast wave felt, it was quite uncomfortable.

This guy is proposing a 6 kilo ANNM charge. I have calculated the distance he would need to be at to feel a similar sensation from the blast wave to what I experienced with my small ANNM charge... 83 metres. This enormous charge gives about the same pressure at 2.78 times the distance from ground zero (merely standing behind something will not offer much protection from pressure blast)

Standing 50m from 6 Kg of ANNM would be like standing 18m from 280grams of ANNM. YOU WILL BE DEAFENED... your hearing may return after an hour, it may not. Sure if you are bad ass and enjoy the feeling of being kicked in the stomach then ear defenders can make if safe.......ish :D
Personally if I was feeling brave I would stand at 70m but otherwise you should be perfectly safe and comfortable at 100m, assuming you are sheilded from any high velocity rocks etc!

Try and use a solid state digicam and place it 30m away. If you are going DV tape then 100m please and zoom it in. I had a shock wave ruin a video (think it shook the tape or tape heads) when the cam was placed too close. the split second it took to reach the cam should have resulted in the actual event being caught but it fucked about two seconds either side of video :mad:

I don't mean to sound alarmist and I enjoy a big boom as much as the next guy but I just have to ask, is 6Kg REALLY necessary? Please ask yourself what you are hoping to acheive BEFORE you trust you LIFE to a lump of TATP putty. IMO you would need to get 15+m away to survive, closer than 10m would result in dismemberment and anything less than 5 metres we are talking shovel and broom. Swissdude, be safe and THINK.

[-=HeX=-]

Frank, I underestimated the power of ANNM in that post. However 6 kilograms is obviously good! We are all pyros here! (Well most of us...) so swissdude, have a blast! Enjoy it! Have fun but be safe! Be at least 200 meters away with a video camera at 30 meters from ground zero.

Actually it will be a good learning experience for you! And I would trust TATP putty a fair bit more than other primaries, especially HMTD or straight TATP. It is quite safe, and thats coming from me.

Have fun!

[Swissdude]

Thanks alot for your help guys. And I will transport the 6kg in six 1kg jars and the cap in a bucket full of sand. I'll assemble the charge when I get there to improve safety. But really guys thanks, I don't know too much about the power etc. I was goin' to stand like 50m away.

[Double-Oh-Zero]

Right, first off, I thank you all for all this info, it is going to be very helpful within the next 3 weeks when I attempt my first ever synthesis of an energetic material. ( I am quite excited :)) I have chosen Acetone Peroxide because it is easy to make, and the precursors are easy to find.

There will be 3 charges, one of 20g, one of 30g, and one of 75g. The mix will be poured into three film cannisters. The explosive will be prepared on the day using ALENGOSVIG1's (as mentioned in the first post in this thread) method, and the charges constructed as soon as the explosive is ready.

To detonate each charge, I will be using a small light bulb from a chain of Christmas lights. The glass bulb will be taken off, the filament placed in the AP, and will be ignited with a .75 second pulse of 420 volts.

Question time: I am using reagent-grade Acetone, 30% Hydrogen Peroxide, and 30% Hydrochloric acid. When doing the reaction, is it absolutely essential to leave the mix for 24 hours? (This could be a problem)

Is my igniter viable? (Seeing as Visco can set AP off, this should work. ['will work' would be preferred])

What distance should I be from the charges? I was thinking 25m.

What is the best way to keep the reaction cool? I have heard salt bath, refrigerator, freezer etc. which one?

How loud would the report be? (I know that this is hard to estimate, but please)

What sort of destructive power am I looking at?

Thank you all for your help, I am looking forward to some answers, please be critical, but constructively so. Hopefully, this first-time excursion into the exciting world of things-that-go-bang will be a good one for me. :D

@Swissdude: I wish you the best of luck and look forward to a video of the event!

[-=HeX=-]

Double oh: Do not try the 75 gram charge. Look at the picture of what happend to my hand with 20 grams. Then realize that I got lucky. Then imagine that being your arm, blown off by a 75 gram charge of TCAP when you could easily have taken the time to make HDN or ETN. Hexamine dinitrate is easily made with Mr Cools method.

Yep, the electrical ignitor should do the job just fine. Just reconsider the charge pipe and be safe. Video it if possible.

Swissdude: you should be safe with those protections. Have fun man! I will PM you my email address.

All: in a few weeks I will release a rough version of a part of my .pdf. I am going to PM some of you for permission to use your photos and methods in it. Credit will be given where due. After all, I cant synth and photograph everything!

[Swissdude]

Thanks. I will start the synth of the AP putty tomorrow and blow the charge sonday morning. One last thing though: The blasting ground is in a large forrest and I'm afraid that I might blow up a tree.
Oh and while I'm typing this I had a glorious idea. Last time I was there I discovered a fucking gypsy hutt made outta plastic sheets and wood, would be fun blowing that up.
So what do ya think?

[-=HeX=-]

Gypsy hut eh? I say try a fuel air explosion! Add some lighter flints to the charge, lay a gallon of petrol on top of the charge, and leave a few KNO3 + SUGAR incendiaries lwing around to help ignite the fuel which is dispersed as a failsafe to the lighter flints. Add some insulation to the gypsy hut to aid the compression of the gasses. Do a search for FAE's and read all about them.

'Bang and the gypsies are gone!' I actively encourage you to do it! I wish I had the 80 euro to fly to switserland (Spelling?) and be there...

[Swissdude]

Hmm there are simpler ways to get a nice fireball: Propane and butane.
You buy a large gas container (the big ones you use for torches, that look like spraycans) and then place it above or around the charge just somewhere where the shockwave reaches it easily.

[Double-Oh-Zero]

-=HeX=-, I honestly thank you. Those pictures have opened my eyes.
<20g from now on for me.

I hope your hand heals quickly.

[Alexires]

Double-Oh-Zero - That is some dangerous stuff you are considering. If this is your first time doing anything like this, I would go sub 5g (at the most) if it were me.

Use and salt/ice bath, freezer and refrigerator. Remember, you can never have too much salt. Never. You should be able to drop the temp to -5ºC easily, -10ºC if you keep the ice up.

You should get enough product after 1 hour or so I've found.

About your igniter - You pushing the Christmas lights into the AP could ignite it. It probably won't, but there is that chance that it will. Ideally, your AP should be "wet" before you start playing with it like that.

What kind of measure of destructive power do you want? 20g is enough to blow your fingers off with ease, propel shrapnel fast enough to kill you/remove squishy bits (eyes, genitals, etc.)

Please, if you are going to do this synth, start very small till you get used to the nuances of it. You might not get an overwhelmingly great yield, but it will help you keep all your bits where they are meant to be.

[-=HeX=-]

Dont worry mate, I will be grand. Just be careful. Really careful. But still have fun. Pyro does have a fun side!

Swissdude: the propane tanks may not work as well but hey, whatever floats your boat!

[Swissdude]

They work I know I already "tuned" a pipebomb with it.
As for the bomb I already pulverized 3kg of the AN.

[Double-Oh-Zero]

Thanks Alexires.

OK, clearly I have no idea of its sensitivity. I can understand dropping it, and having it go off, but pushing in the filament of a light bulb?

I am going to have to readjust my entire process to take this into account. I was going to follow the process exactly (washing it twice), then remove the water-and-crystal mixture from the coffee filter and spread it on newspaper to dry in the sun. Then I was going to pour it straight into the film container, and detonate it.

However, this seems quite stupid if AP is indeed that sensitive. Can someone please help me with some suggestions? I am trying to eliminate as many risks as possible from the process. Thanks.

I am sorry if I am asking for spoonfeeding, but there is really no place I can find that can help me like this. Many thanks.

[-=HeX=-]

Fill the bulb with powdered match heads. Then put tape on the hole. Then drill a hole in the care of the empty filmcan and put the leads through. Then seal the hole. Then fill the filmcan with TCAP. Then put in a piece of tissue and put on the lid. The bit of tissue prevents the TCAP getting on the rim when putting the lid on. I will edit this with photos later he I get time.

Ok swissdude, if it does work, add a few propane cans!

[Double-Oh-Zero]

OK, I've got a rough idea now, thanks.

@Swissdude I hope it goes well!

[Hinckleyforpresident]

@Hex
Using "crushed match heads" is extremely dangerous - especially when in combination with acetone peroxide. Match head bombz are a hallmark of kewls all around the world, and to me the charge you are describing sounds very kewl.

Acetone peroxide should NEVER be used for anything other than blasting caps. And you don't need a primer for AP in caps. A simple strand of nichrome wire or a fuse will do the job much better and safer than a lightbulb packed with red P and chlorate.

Making the charge you are describing sounds about as sane as playing baseball with a wad of NI3.

@Double-Oh-Zero
It is fine to insert a fuse into AP, so long as the crystals are small. If the synthesis is done properly, AP should be almost like confectioners sugar in consistency. The danger of autodetonation mainly comes from breaking large crystals.

[-=HeX=-]

Hinkley: I apologise he I came off as a kewl. It was not meant to sound that way. I was just referring to the igniter that I now use because my source of solar ignitors has dried up. I would have sent you a private message however my PM Function was not working. Also, I meant safety matches, which are potassium chlorate and antimony trisulphide. The strikes contains the phosphorus. I find it a safe and reliable ignitor.

Again, I apologise. I am deeply sorry. My membership here is what is keeping me sane. I only hoped to needs am alternative ignitor method. Sorry. I accept the reprimand.

[Ethyl]

Sorry for posting something off topic but this is the closest fitting thread for that. I fund several more appropriate threads but they are very old.

I am interested in benzoyl peroxide. As far as I know it can be extracted from some acne medicines. Also It can be made by adding benzyl chloride to a solution of H2O2 in water basified with NaOH. It is said that it is explosive but less than AP or HMTD.

I would like to know, is it possible to make it from benzaldehyde (I can buy it easily but I cant get benzyl chloride)? If yes what would be the best method?

Thank you in advance.

[totenkov]

I think its a lost cause to try and extract BP from acne products, as the concentrations are far to low to be of any use.

[Zelot]

Because the acid in making AP is a catalyst, it doesn't really matter which acid you use, right? I don't have HCl or H2SO4, but I do have some NaHSO3 (sodium bisulfite). Would I be able to use that for an AP synthesis?

[-=HeX=-]

Zelot: UTFSE! Check the thread 'Spontenous (Sp) transformation of TATP to DADP under an acid catalyst' well, it reads something like that and is only a few days old. And dont use sulphuric anyway. He you cannot find HCl i may be able to point you in the correct direction. What countrey are you in? And have you tried pool stores, hardware stores, your school lab, the list goes on.

Has anybody noticed that swissdude has vanished? He stopped posting after the 6 kilo charge was supposed to be set off. Has he been caught? Blown up? Even he he just aborted it could he please come back. I wish to talk to him about something.

Also, I have seen the 50% benzoyl peroxide as a glue for bycycle tires. It comes in a type repair kit.

[FUTI]

I am interested in benzoyl peroxide. As far as I know it can be extracted from some acne medicines. Also It can be made by adding benzyl chloride to a solution of H2O2 in water basified with NaOH. It is said that it is explosive but less than AP or HMTD.

I would like to know, is it possible to make it from benzaldehyde (I can buy it easily but I cant get benzyl chloride)?

I hope this is the closest to spoonfeeding you will get here or else mods will get you.
1. benzyl-chloride will not make benzoyl-peroxide that easily, even more it is cumbersome choice of synthone for that reaction. That make me suspicious that you don't know what are you talking about. If I'm right please stay away from the glassware for the time being.
2. I doubt it has big use as explosive, can be added to some pyrotechnical mixtures or prank experiments (like mixing anyline and that stuff in test tube). It should be less explosive that AP or HMTD, but then what is the purpose you intend to use it for?
3. Yes, you can make it from benzaldehyde, but again with too much trouble. It is easier to buy sodium-benzoate for making pickled cucumbers in your grocery store and if you have rest of the stuff available at your hand complete couple synthetic steps you can't avoid starting from any of the compound you mentioned.
4. I research a little about making of benzoyl-peroxide for student lab "drills" ;-), so I know what I'm speaking. Do not confuse analytical procedure for "extracting" the active compound for analytical purpose with actually usable way to obtain the same compound in a reasonable amount (and reading those list with content of active compounds in pharmaceutical products really help sometime).

[Rbick]

Because the acid in making AP is a catalyst, it doesn't really matter which acid you use, right? I don't have HCl or H2SO4, but I do have some NaHSO3 (sodium bisulfite). Would I be able to use that for an AP synthesis?

Yes you can use different acids, just like you can use HCl or diluted (70%) sulfuric acid instead of citric acid while making HMTD. However, Sodium Bisulfite might have a problem with reacting with the peroxide and may not give you the sulfonic acid that you're after. PM hex for information on where to get HCl as he seems more willing to help than me :p

HEX: I'm not sure where he went. I hope he didn't blow himself up. Maybe he is busy and hasn't had time to report. Either that or he hasn't actually done it and doesn't want to bring attention to himself until hes actually completed the task. Either way, I hope we see the video soon! :D

[-=HeX=-]

My short lived legal troubles over, I am free to experiment again. Lacking some of my labware I am left to my own ingenuity to pursue experimentation. Due to lack of chemicals I am going to do a few tests on TCAP. I will post the results as soon as I complete them.

Any ideas for tests you want done? I wish to do tests on its spark sensitivity. Any ideas on how?

[Zelot]

To test the spark sensitivity, you could light a sparkler, or maybe a piece of visco, a few inches above a 1g pile. Or you could also take the sparker out of a barbecue lighter, and make an arc across it.

[Ethyl]

Regarding AP spark sensitivity, I found that my AP is very sensitive to sparks. Sparks from a ordinary lighter were enough to ignite it in almost every time. The lighter was close to the AP (around 7-10 mm).

[-=HeX=-]

Quick report on the spark sensitivity:

Test: spark sensitivity of TCAP from various sources.

Spark sources used: sparkler, blackmatch, zippo flint, piezo crystal from lighter, spark from camera cap.

Sparkler: was laid across the top of 37mm wide pipe with half a gram of TCAP spread out 3cm below, in the pipe, on paper. The sparks from the sparkler successfully ignited the sample.

Blackmatch: Same Test rig, sparks successfully caused ignition.

Piezo crystal: No ignition whatsoever.

Zippo flint: Ignition at 1cm range above sample.

Capacitor sparks: ignition at 5mm from sample.

Any other spark sources you guys want tested?

I will video it next time.

Conclusion: Only the piezo failed to ignite the sample. Possibly due to the spark being too cold. Anyone know why? It does ignite butane...

[-=HeX=-]

Quick note on the spark Test I did. The piezo sample was yet. When properly dried out It ignited without any problem. This Test concludes that TCAP is bloody spark sensitive. I will post photos of Test rig when I get my computer working again.

[Setharier]

I made some 15 grams of AP from 25ml H2O2(30%), 18.75ml Acetone and 6.25ml of HCl(30%). 3 days later during this post, there's only about 3 grams left :D

I made some tests with my fresh made AP. 6 hours from setting it to dry, it didn't noticeable detonated with a hammer, only small crack and pieces flew around. Anyway it took fire extremely well: only a show of a match lit it up, following by a beautiful fireball and "FHUP!". It was even so sensitive to fire that the other pile I attempted to lit, my match got out, but it still lit the AP instantly with its remaining heat.

Next day when it was dried about 24 hours, I made some more tests. Now it detonated well with a hammer and lit up the same way with match. I took a piece of log, drilled a hole into it, smaller on the side for the fuse, poured about 1g into it, plugged the hole with some plastic tab. It blew the logpiece into shrapnels all around beautifully and, I was little surprised of its power.

On the same day I attempted an impact test. I took smaller piece of log, drilled little hole into it, poured some quarter-half of a gram of AP into it and plugged it with some sort of a glue. Then I just threw it to the floor(wearing safeties of course). Nothing. Again. No result, any kind of. I threwed that logpiece around for a while, failing to detonate the AP in it. This is quite strange, since it will detonate by hammer even from couple of centimeters, but nothing when thrown to the cement floor.

With air rifle and AP(yep, I know, foolish), I about doubled its power. Only .25g of AP behind the bullet made it to pierce the whole plank instead of jamming at middle of it. Funny thing is, the AP doesn't make it any louder, instead it sounds little like silenced .22. Obviously the pressure of AP srikes against the piston and prevents it slamming front with full force and thereby silencing it down a lot.

[Bert]

That will really beat up your air rifle. One of the decomposition products of AP is ozone, very bad for the synthetic materials in the piston seal.

[-=HeX=-]

Explosive dieseling, Now thats intelligent! What happens when you accidentally overcharge it? Boom! And you get bits of airgun lodged in you. Not a happy ending. And then airguns get banned. See the photo of my hand... That was 20 grams but I believe some of it just deflagerated. Be careful.

[Setharier]

I just realized that what I said .25g, it is way too much to fit in back of a diabolo bullet. Actual quantity is for sure somewhere .01-.05g MAX. Without pushing the bullet long up to the barrel, it's almost impossible to overload and just blow it up. Of course there IS a danger and I always keep that in mind; I holded the rifle only with the trigger hand, so, if even theoretically the front would have been blown off, I wouldn't have had any shrapnels on me.

Anyway, so much for the off-topic. Yesterday I wasted rest of the AP I got. I placed some gram per film can and blew em up with an air rifle(this time with no AP-boost :D), nicle sharp bangs filled the air. But the logpiece I mentioned in earlier posts; I didn't managed to blow the AP in it up even with a .22 rifle. Curious, very curious. I wonder if the grease/glue I plugged the hole has dissolved/moistured the AP.

Althrough this is an old thread, its better to concentrate knowledge and not to make a new thread. So, about purifying AN, here's what I did:

I poured contents of 7 cold packs in a bucket and added water as long as it nearly dissolved everything and let it warm for a little(water gets cold when AN added and dissolves lesser AN than as warm) and all prills were gone then. Then I filtered the calcium-whateva making-it-unable-to-use-as-an-explosive-material scheisse and impurities away and soon got some clear water which gone into kettle. I never saved any power when boiling it, ending to a dark brown solution, which dried quickly into very nice white powder which was ovened after that. The waves going at the surface of the "porridge", (citing my father), looks indeed very curious.

The loss of content: There were ~180g AN per pack, that by 7 makes ~1260g, and now there were 1197g left after filtering, boiling and ovening. A loss I can stand before than waiting couple of months for letting water dry out in sunlight istead of boiling it in 30 minutes.

This weekend, making 10-20g AP and then some APAN. Yet to find a good place to blow up anything larger than just a couple of grams..

One good way to make blasting cap from a shell is to drill through the primer just to make the fuze go through. This way the shell neck can be certainly closed fully, not fearing the fuze would break or went out at the climax point, what happened to me. I used this technique making some (very dangerous though, due to the shrapnel; that's why I made only couple of them) "salutes" at the new year.

[kelb]

I know I'm not a heavy poster here but I'm kind of confused why everyone keeps saying look at your pool supply place for the acid. All of the pH reducer I have seen in the past 4 years of having a pool has been sodium bisulfate. That acid has yet to be mentioned, and therefore it is making me wonder if I would be able to use it as the catalyst.

Wouldn't it be easier to just get the acid out of a battery, or would that be to contaminated by the lead?

[altech]

What you would be looking for is muriatic acid, this is Hydrochloric acid. It is usually about 2.99 a gallon, at least for me.

I am not sure and this need verifying by more experienced users but I am willing to bet that you can't use sodium bisulfate as a catalyst, for this reaction at least.

[totenkov]

Obtaining acid from a car battery would be a last resort once all other souces of acid have been depleated or removed. The acid described is HCl. Used for neutralizing a pool as some pools are just giant basic soulutions.

Car battery acid is H2SO4. At about a 35% concentration, not only would it make a poor acid for peroxide synths, but all a potential contamination problem. Removing any trace of lead, graphite and whatever else is in a car battery, then boiling the acid down is not worth the time. I would use house hold vinegar before dissecting a car battery.

[The_Duke]

Actually 35% H2SO4 is almost ideal for use as a catalyst whereas CH3COOH is a very poor choice. Adding conc. H2SO4 to 30%+ H2O2 is not a very good idea. The dehydration by the sulfuric acid is very violent and exothermic in its action. Unless your actually using used battery acid, contamination is not really a problem. New battery acid can be bought from many places.

[Rbick]

Anywhere from 70% to around 30% makes a good catalyst for AP production. In my high school years, I remember trying to mix 98% Sulfuric Acid to 35% Hydrogen Peroxide. Being the impatient teenager I was, I added it too quickly and it soon produced a fireball and black smoke that filled the room. Using this high conc. sulfuric for AP is NOT advised! Also remember when making your Sulfuric Acid/Water solution prior to mixing, remember A&W, or acid to water, not water to acid!

The impurities in the battery acid shouldn't pose too much of a problem. If you look for it, you can probably find my thread on testing different components in AP production. Its in this section somewhere, but I don't feel like finding it. Anyway, I got a fairly good yield with nail polish remover, which is packed with impurities. There is one good way to find out for sure: Good ol' fashion lab work! :eek:

[-=HeX=-]

I would say to avoid sulphuric acid completely because of what that paper mega uploaded said about it making the dimeric form form. I will be uploading the TATP section of my .pdf soon but I am afraid that I have called TATP TCAP many times from habit. It is a rather big file so I apologise for that. Btw I love the new forum.

[JohnG]

I know I'm not a heavy poster here but I'm kind of confused why everyone keeps saying look at your pool supply place for the acid.


I have found pool supply stores to be a good source of higher concentration (30%+) H2O2, maybe this is what you are thinking of, rather than acid?

[totenkov]

H202 is a re-agent. The acid is simply a catalyst. Regarding my other post I think a dim/trim form of TCAP is easily avoided by simply more temp. control. An exothermic reaction between H202 and H2SO4 is called a Piranha solution, only found in extremely high concentrations of Hydrogen peroxide I believe.

[-=HeX=-]

I strongly advise against H2SO4 as a catalyst. Car Battery acid would just make things even more unstable with all that lead particles... Anyway here is a rapidshare link to my .pdf on TATP. It is incomplete but feedback is needed to improve. Email or PM me any queries, or post them here if the M(g)ods allow that. It is not that far OT...
http://rapidshare.de/files/39639088/TCAP_v1_2.pdf.html There is the link.

Be warned, it does include a photo of my hand to scare off kewls and the Swedish Infomania's files english is not great.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

-=HeX=- not too many people are willing to put themselves in the spotlight and come clean with a mistake & injury. You should be applauded for the self-confidence to display that honesty; especially since it may save someone from injury. Personally, I believe we all make some serious mistakes & those with self confidence are perfectly OK with admitting it.

The "big picture" ethics of saying (in effect) "don't do what I did" is an example of maturity - given the proviso that you don't actually make the same mistake repeatedly... ;-)

I've said quite often that the major issue with TATP is not only it's unidimensional nature (I think it's boring, chemically) but that it's seemingly so simple to synthesize that idiots who should be spending their time in study are off making it in their parent' home. While NG is just as simple but is the foundation of a great many chemically related materials & provides hours of study and a gateway to the synthesis of some truly marvelous energetics.

I once had a small job editing some technical manuals and will always be available to help on projects if you should ever need an editor or copy proof-reader.

When someone like yourself puts together something of that nature with accuracy and safety foremost in mind; you may actually save lives (or serious maiming).

There was a member here, (who still may be around) who did every experiment on a "micro scale". So much so, that his moniker was related to that aspect of synthesis yield. One of my strongest convictions is to keep energetic materials small in size in any preliminary attempt at accuracy. His was a sensible approach & one that is used in flourishing professional labs world wide.

[Cobalt.45]

Then there's always the antithesis- like former member "phone", who is (was) the poster boy for how not to handle acetone peroxide... Unfortunately for him, I doubt there was enough of him left to be recognized in a photo.

Hex, your injury is a serious one as is the hard-won lesson learned and shared. A reality check is in order any time one is involved with the synthesis or handling of acetone peroxide, so thanks for that.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

Then there's always the antithesis- like former member "phone", who is (was) the poster boy

I actually DIDN'T know about that....You're being serious? What happened?

Since this is a Beginner's thread, if you know what actually transpired - it would be a strong post. Was any of that documented in a newspaper, etc?

[JohnG]

Yes, it happened in Feb 2004. He made a kilo+ of AP, took several hundred grams of it to the park to detonate with friends. He lit the fuse and ran, after 5 minutes it didn't go off, so he approached it to check it out, that is when it went off.

The links to news articles and photos still work.


Our discussion (and Phone's too):
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=2080

Pictures of his AP on his floor with unopened cold packs:
http://wwwc.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/0402/23/NYHETER-23s11pulver_368.jpg

News article (in Swedish i think):
http://www.dn.se/DNet/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=147&a=236561&previousRenderType=6

[Charles Owlen Picket]

This is a powerful and informative piece and I actually didn't realize it still existed in archival form. Thank you for finding it so quickly. I think that this whole thread should reflect the monstrous lessons that exist when such a thing is easily available to those who cavalierly play with materials that are inherently demanding of professional manipulation.

Often times the "it can't happen to me" and "I know what I'm doing" attitude" permeate the simplistic energetic discussions of TATP.

One of the greatest impacts of negligence of this nature is the public condemnation it brings with it. When we examine the concerns that the public expresses over chemicals, glassware, etc - we often have no one but ourselves to blame. Actions of this nature have repercussions felt over decades after the tragedy occurs.

The breadth of that issue comes back to me now and it's wasteful to go over the issues individually but considering the level of negligence and quantity of mistaken actions that occurred, it would behoove anyone concerned (especially TATP) to re-read this and pause a moment to reflect on just what their actions can perpetuate.

Literally anyone whose hobby interests concern pyrotechnics, energetic materials, of high energy physics are walking billboards (advertisements) for the nature of the activity. You either contribute to the expansion of interest and open minded study or you cut short the learning & enjoyment for hundreds of thousand for years to come.

[-=HeX=-]

Words cannot express how shocked I was when I first read the article about phone during the summer. I had seen him referred to various times but had not seen it for myself. The next version of the .pdf shall contain the article and anything connected to it. Things like this really make you think.

Personally I am trying to stop making TATP as my primary as I have a source for sodium azide. I am actually just going to buy the stuff off my chemist friend. TATP is actually a boring primary anyway as you cannot do much safely with it.

Charles: thank you for your compliments on my work, I shall try to keep my whole .pdf up to that standard. I may take up your offer of proofread in future. Currently I am writing on Azides and I am suffering from too much data to process. Actually regarding organic peroxide, I have found that not all that much on HMTD is available so far. I shall search more.

[sbovisjb1]

I suggest that beginners should not even try to make this, if they want an explosive in high quantity. Go with something more stable.

[Setharier]

Nevermind of making any more than couple of dozen of grams of it. If you do, place it only 20-30g per can many meters away from each other(this amount isn't nearly finger-friendly but it won't have the power to blow out all the windows) I use to pour my freshly washed AP onto a sheet of paper, then spread it flat and cutting the paper into four pieces and put them on a plywood plate 0.5m from each others. No fear of mass explosion, at least it could not critically detonate. It seem to sublimate very quickly; only the memory was left from ~5g pile when I was 4 days away.

Hey, about that pressing. I have put some gram a time on small sheet of paper which has folded so the AP is on the bottom and carefully inserted it between bench vise and pressed it to form a nearly-pulp-like sheet. Im not sure will it blow up any better; since actually I never used a match on it, but sharp bang came with a hammer(but it does it when "free" also). At least the density of that stuff is way closer 1.4g than 0.8g. One might make a pile of these sheets and place em into film can and see would they detonate any better. I have tried many times(with much smaller quantities) and never got any explosion when pressing AP at any speed or style with the bench wise. Even it would go off there, the 'vice's front plate has at least inch of steel protecting me :D

[-=HeX=-]

You got it in one there mate. There really is only one beginners guide to TATP. It has only 3 words in it. 'Dont even bother.' because quite frankly, it is a shit primary.

I may have been shouting its praises a while back but I aint now. For me its Azides. Oh yes. Azides. Or something like DDNP. Fuck peroxides, especially TATP and HMTD. I will keep researching and experimenting on them but not as much. TATP should be left to the kewls, idiots, and very brave. Or maybe those with a few spare limbs.

[sbovisjb1]

In small quantities I see no problems. (10-20gs max for me) but anything larger, and if you have everything grouped together (not stored in separate small clumps) you are asking for trouble.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

Energetic peroxides are trouble for a few reasons, one of which is their unique sensitivity to static electric initiation and the other is their ease of synthesis. HMTP at least is a damn good primary, but TATP has really nothing to recommend it except for it's ease of manufacture. Both of them are viciously vulnerable to static.

I have done a few things with exploding bridge wire set-ups and have some high energy cap-discharge units that are fairly powerful. A friend had some rack mounted measuring equipment to measure energy decay after a DC. We were evaporating wires (between two electrodes) and measuring what was left in what cap (from a large cap bank). The biggest problem is telling the difference between static background "noise" and what was really left over from the cap discharge.......Get where I'm going now?????? There is enough static energy to trigger a meter CONSISTENTLY on some areas & you are gambling your safety on whether you are in one of those areas or not.....

Do yourself a favour and become conscious of how many times you have a little static electric shock and keep track. When you get out of the truck, when you go into the office or classroom, when you sit down to dinner, whatever......You will be very surprised as the average in certain areas of the country can be dozens of exposures during a day.

When something is cheap and easy to make it invites the casual attitude of predictability. The factual existence of static initiation is in direct opposition to predictability! - That had always been my reasoning (in a nutshell) as to why I discourage anyone to experiment with TATP.

[sbovisjb1]

Yes I agree, but could you wear non-static gloves and use non-static containers as to properly store and handle TATP.

Bags like this?

http://www3.3m.com/catalog/uk/en002/electronics_mfg/static_control_packaging/node_R76LTBFN1Dbe/root_K3BHNB8005gv/vroot_5KR9K2C2KZge/gvel_JQGPTT9723gl/theme_uk_staticcontrolpackaging_3_0/command_AbcPageHandler/output_html

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.8270

Even though they say that they can be grounded easily, I would like to see what tests have been done. (I may have to do them myself)

[Emil]

Yes, this is a good point Charles. You can recieve static shocks at almost any time of the day, doing quite normal activities. I usually find the most common is when leaving a car and touching it's door. It would be a most unfortuanate event if you were to initiate an explosive due to a static spark.

This is why storage of the peroxides should even be considered more carefully than any others. I personally wouldn't even synthesize any TATP let alone store it, but HMTD must be stored away from any possible risk, in the correct type of container. I would personally recommend storing it "open" as you don't want any type of friction from a lid closing over a container, or even worse, a screw cap. Any type of plastic bag is a no no, as it's well known they are a popular material for creating static.

It's a sad story about that phone kid, he is but a memory. It doesn't suprise me a bit though judging from his attitude towards the energetics. There are lots of people like him out there, fortuanetly most of them aren't even stupid enough to synthesize a primary on the scale he did. I am most sorry to hear about Hex's accident. No one deserve to be hurt in this field, not even the kewls, and you sound like a decent mature guy. Thankgod you got off without any substantial loss. Just a big reality check reminding you never to make this terrible product again.

[-=HeX=-]

Emil: it is funny now to look back upon the times when I would place half a gram in my hand and deflagerate it as a magic trick. Now I wince whenever I try to load a cap. So I have used DDNP instead.

With TATP its ease of synth breeds familiarity with the product. Familiarity breeds contempt. Contempt leads to carelessness. Carelessness kills. Therefore I shall switch to Azides.

Charles: good point on static initiation, I hear lead azide is susceptible also. Tests shall have to be conducted.

I remember the time I carried a electronically fused with visco as a redundant initiator for backup, 4 gram charge in my pocket. I went on a bus into town and after 5 hours of wandering around I set it off in a forested park. The pocket contained a cell phone, some nitrocellulose, loose change and paper money, batteries and matches. I got damn lucky. Had I been unlucky I would be a soprano. Nowadays that only happens in nightmares. Just a tale of its unusual unpredictable nature. It should have blown my bollocks off.

[Cobalt.45]

TATP is to HE as flash is to Pyro- a right of passage, as it were. Many have made/used it- mostly early on in the quest for knowledge. Most come away with just that- knowledge (and hopefully a healthy respect for its unpredictability). Unfortunately, some come away with less than they started with, bodily appendage-wise.

But at least flash has some qualities that are very hard to duplicate in any safer manner. TATP, on the other hand does nothing especially well and has all of the pitfalls to boot. If it were not for its ease of manufacture, it would be but a footnote.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

If we were to apply a quick glance from production needs & dynamics of TATP (an oxymoron in a sense) to the azides we get some unique comparisons. {Compare "church-key" to a high-end Leatherman tool}

"Highly dextrinated azides" have much less sensitivity to static initiation than the majority of industrial primaries; however they don't pour so what was done was to pelletize in a separate manufacturing process (See Austin Powder Company 1951, patent is not on this machine but I remember the thing due to the date).

Assuming the individual reads at a sophomore level and has a few brain cells left, the proper production of metallic azides (i.e. ...keep the fucking reactants cold! Larger material and needles have a relationship to temp within a water soluble azide synthesis) will result in single micron sized powder; a non-crystalline material that has less chance of friction initiation - so your really major concern is dealing with static. Dextrin ratios for the "13xxx" series of mil-spec material will do just fine. Another firm that made caps (Atlas PC) used silver azide as they had a R&D guy that set the static level higher than that of Pb.

[Cobalt.45]

Anyway here is a rapidshare link to my .pdf on TATP. It is incomplete but feedback is needed to improve. Email or PM me any queries, or post them here...

Hex, my only comment (other than good job) would be to remove the paper label from your glassware- it tends to wick up any drips that go down the outside of the jar and could burn/bleach you as a result.

[billybobobrain]

From a “beginners” perspective, it is very cool this forum exists and that you all share your mistakes and success. Having tried AP recently as an experiment, and finding out that it is difficult to handle safely. I have decided to borrow some Chemistry manuals so I can learn to do the “hard” stuff, if that is what I need to do to be safe.

Thanks’ to all for the knowledge, and inspiration.

Now for the fun part, Getting rid of 150g’s of AP.

[-=HeX=-]

Now for the fun part, Getting rid of 150g’s of AP.

Ha, I am in the same boat with 70 + grams of the stuff. I went on a quest to find the optimal process for PURE TRIMER and minimal dimer product, running 10 or more synths. I ended up with 100 grams but the disposal was going well until my mother started to complain about the noise the 5 gram charges made.

Now what shall I do with the 1.5 liters of 7.5% H2O2 I have left?

I may have an OTC source of lead azide but first tests must be made to check its viability so just wait... Soon we could all have Azide based caps!

[onlyinmydreams]

In a dream I was using an acid called muriatic acid which contains only 14.5% HCl and I could not find any 30% HCl.

I used 150ml of 3%H2O2, 50ml of 14.55 HCl and 25ml of acetone to make some AP. I had a very, very minimal yield (under a gram) and I let synthesize for about 50 hours in a fridge.

However, early in the synth process the liquid froze and I was forced to move it to a fridge. Was my flaw not monitoring temp and did the liquid cool too much?

I used a salt ice bath and added the HCl very slowly while stirring. Is the 30% acid required and if I cannot find any am I better off using some drain cleaner sulfuric acid? I was looking more in the range of 15g for use as a primary for some ANFO/ANWAX. Also, the muriatic contents said 85% other contents, so could this have been a problem in my dream?

[-=HeX=-]

Onlyinmydreams: do not use sulfuric acid, it leads to dimer acetone peroxide :(. I Just try to find better hydrogen peroxide of 6% or more. The acid could be then just used in bigger amount. Also, why TATP? Why not try a better primary and a ETN booster? Read my .pdf on TATP for any other info you need. It can be found in this thread.

[onlyinmydreams]

Well, Hex, I have rather easy access to 30% peroxide. I plan on having a dream about obtaining some methenamine tablets for making HMTD, however I am just starting out with some TATP for experience purposes before I go through the process of making a magnetic stirrer, getting hexamine, etc. in my new dream.

I have not very thoroughly research ETN, and am not sure I would be able to have a dream about obtaining the materials for ETN.

I don't like AP anyways, I was able to deflagrate with an open flame some of my wet batch in a recent dream. I will look into ETN, thanks for your response.