megalomania
June 8th, 2003, 01:00 PM
Cyware
New Member
Posts: 22
From: Nomatter
Registered: APR 2001
posted 04-23-2001 05:21 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After I synthesized 5 ml of NG (and I payed for this with a terrific headache), I detonate the stuff in an open steel tube, 7 cm diam and 15 lenght, wich was realy cracked after the explosion. I used the tube to keep the rests of the casing I used for NG (an empty shotgun shell). Of course I never found any debris at all from that shell, and I was shoked to see how powerfull could be this stuff. Now, my problem: how dangerous could be the mixing of NG with NC ? I tested the NG and I was really surprised to see that is not as sensitive as acetone peroxide at shock. You must hit NG pretty hard to make it go off.
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 04-23-2001 09:14 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not dangerous at all.
Microtek
Frequent Poster
Posts: 205
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 04-24-2001 02:57 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But the NC will not be readily colloidized by the addition of only NG.
One way around this is mixing the NC with a little acetone, which desensitizes it and is better at dissolving the NC.
I prefer to add some nitromethane to the NG;
this has the same effect as the acetone, but also gives a better oxygen balance.
1 mL NM and 8 mL NG will give a perfect OB when not taking the NC into account.
nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1096
From: Guess
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-24-2001 04:57 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you mix the NG and the NC together at freezing temps, then warm it to 100 degrees F, the mix will gel itself within a few minutes. Adding a percent (weight) of calcium carbonate prevents acid degradation.
90%NG/10%NC is prefered ratios.
Cyware, what process did you use for the NG synth?
------------------
"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"
Go here to download the NBK2000 website PDF.
Go here to download the NBK2000 videos.
Cyware
New Member
Posts: 22
From: Nomatter
Registered: APR 2001
posted 04-24-2001 07:23 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I used the method that Ascanio Sobrero used, the one with esterification of glycerine with a sulfonitric mix at low temp. I think this is the safest one, as long as you don't mix the reactants with a glass rod or oher shit like this to take the chance of rubbing NG against the vessel.The method with sulfonation of glycerin looks pretty dangerous to me, because I heard that NG could go off even in the presence of water, because of the hydrolises. I'll put soon some pictures with the effect of 5 ml of NG against the steel. I usualy use 5 ml of glycerine, 10 ml of nitric acid 80 % at least and 30 ml of sulfuric acid (98%)for a batch. This will release about 8 grams of NG (there are some loses in the reaction, offcourse). The resulted NG after the acid mix is dumped in cold water is milky, but it'll become clear in about 24 hours.
frostfire
Frequent Poster
Posts: 266
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-24-2001 03:41 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
cyware, how you get the 80 % at least nitric
-buy it that way?
-distill
-or just by the HNO3 H2SO4 ratio that the conc of nitric will be increased?
thanks
Cyware
New Member
Posts: 22
From: Nomatter
Registered: APR 2001
posted 04-24-2001 04:19 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I get the nitric acid from a lab. The concentration was 80% (I guess) because it was fuming, but not as much as nitric acid over 90% concentration. You can use much more sulfuric acid if you don't have a concentrated nitric acid; the sulfuric acid will simply absorbe the water. I still don't know how far you can go with this (wich is the minimal raport between nitric acid:sulfuric acid). Usually, the raport of sulfonitric acid could be somewhere between 1:2 - 1:3 and esterification of glycerine works.
frostfire
Frequent Poster
Posts: 266
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-25-2001 03:52 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I got a fuming nitric acid from a chemistry dealer, check it with hydrometer and it turns out to be only about 73 %
what is the smallest HNO3 conc that is still fuming, anyone knows?
Cyware
New Member
Posts: 22
From: Nomatter
Registered: APR 2001
posted 04-25-2001 05:38 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It should to be at least 50-60 %, I guess. Between 66-68 is usualy called "concentrated", and at about 98 % it will contain lots of nitrogen dioxide solved in it,because it decompose slowly, mostly because of light and so it will be redish in colour. You can eliminate the nitrogen dioxide with some urea.
Cyware
New Member
Posts: 22
From: Nomatter
Registered: APR 2001
posted 04-26-2001 05:37 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the effect of only 5 ml of NG on a steel tube (5 cm diam, 15 cm lenght and 3 mm thick). Sorry for the quality of the pics (is because that's the best of a 30$ webcam). You can apreciate the size of the crack easily.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-26-2001 05:59 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cyware, I'm afraid we can't see the picture on your hard drive You need to upload somewhere on the web and put a link to it.
Cyware
New Member
Posts: 22
From: Nomatter
Registered: APR 2001
posted 04-28-2001 07:29 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't understand why it doesn't work, but here is the link with the picture:
http://members.nbci.com/a_bab/new_page_1.htm
CodeMason
Frequent Poster
Posts: 383
From: Your Nightmares
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 05-06-2001 01:14 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It didn't work because your webspace provider (xoom) will not allow indirect access to files (including pictures), without going through your site first (sneaky bastards).
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-11-2001 05:46 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HNO3 fumes because it evaporates somehow and hydrates on the outside of the bottle!
Concidering what I just said:
1)if the surrounding air is dry, then it will not fume; but if very sturated with moisture then it will!
2)if the product is cold no evaporation can occur, then it will not fume; but if the heat is on, it will, since volatility increases!
3)if the surrounding pressure is high it defavorise evaporation and thus reduce the fumes!(pressure diminish from the see to the top of montains/with altitude).
Thus the limit % where it stops to fume is not easy to tell!
New Member
Posts: 22
From: Nomatter
Registered: APR 2001
posted 04-23-2001 05:21 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After I synthesized 5 ml of NG (and I payed for this with a terrific headache), I detonate the stuff in an open steel tube, 7 cm diam and 15 lenght, wich was realy cracked after the explosion. I used the tube to keep the rests of the casing I used for NG (an empty shotgun shell). Of course I never found any debris at all from that shell, and I was shoked to see how powerfull could be this stuff. Now, my problem: how dangerous could be the mixing of NG with NC ? I tested the NG and I was really surprised to see that is not as sensitive as acetone peroxide at shock. You must hit NG pretty hard to make it go off.
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 04-23-2001 09:14 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not dangerous at all.
Microtek
Frequent Poster
Posts: 205
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 04-24-2001 02:57 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But the NC will not be readily colloidized by the addition of only NG.
One way around this is mixing the NC with a little acetone, which desensitizes it and is better at dissolving the NC.
I prefer to add some nitromethane to the NG;
this has the same effect as the acetone, but also gives a better oxygen balance.
1 mL NM and 8 mL NG will give a perfect OB when not taking the NC into account.
nbk2000
Moderator
Posts: 1096
From: Guess
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-24-2001 04:57 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you mix the NG and the NC together at freezing temps, then warm it to 100 degrees F, the mix will gel itself within a few minutes. Adding a percent (weight) of calcium carbonate prevents acid degradation.
90%NG/10%NC is prefered ratios.
Cyware, what process did you use for the NG synth?
------------------
"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"
Go here to download the NBK2000 website PDF.
Go here to download the NBK2000 videos.
Cyware
New Member
Posts: 22
From: Nomatter
Registered: APR 2001
posted 04-24-2001 07:23 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I used the method that Ascanio Sobrero used, the one with esterification of glycerine with a sulfonitric mix at low temp. I think this is the safest one, as long as you don't mix the reactants with a glass rod or oher shit like this to take the chance of rubbing NG against the vessel.The method with sulfonation of glycerin looks pretty dangerous to me, because I heard that NG could go off even in the presence of water, because of the hydrolises. I'll put soon some pictures with the effect of 5 ml of NG against the steel. I usualy use 5 ml of glycerine, 10 ml of nitric acid 80 % at least and 30 ml of sulfuric acid (98%)for a batch. This will release about 8 grams of NG (there are some loses in the reaction, offcourse). The resulted NG after the acid mix is dumped in cold water is milky, but it'll become clear in about 24 hours.
frostfire
Frequent Poster
Posts: 266
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-24-2001 03:41 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
cyware, how you get the 80 % at least nitric
-buy it that way?
-distill
-or just by the HNO3 H2SO4 ratio that the conc of nitric will be increased?
thanks
Cyware
New Member
Posts: 22
From: Nomatter
Registered: APR 2001
posted 04-24-2001 04:19 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I get the nitric acid from a lab. The concentration was 80% (I guess) because it was fuming, but not as much as nitric acid over 90% concentration. You can use much more sulfuric acid if you don't have a concentrated nitric acid; the sulfuric acid will simply absorbe the water. I still don't know how far you can go with this (wich is the minimal raport between nitric acid:sulfuric acid). Usually, the raport of sulfonitric acid could be somewhere between 1:2 - 1:3 and esterification of glycerine works.
frostfire
Frequent Poster
Posts: 266
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-25-2001 03:52 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I got a fuming nitric acid from a chemistry dealer, check it with hydrometer and it turns out to be only about 73 %
what is the smallest HNO3 conc that is still fuming, anyone knows?
Cyware
New Member
Posts: 22
From: Nomatter
Registered: APR 2001
posted 04-25-2001 05:38 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It should to be at least 50-60 %, I guess. Between 66-68 is usualy called "concentrated", and at about 98 % it will contain lots of nitrogen dioxide solved in it,because it decompose slowly, mostly because of light and so it will be redish in colour. You can eliminate the nitrogen dioxide with some urea.
Cyware
New Member
Posts: 22
From: Nomatter
Registered: APR 2001
posted 04-26-2001 05:37 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is the effect of only 5 ml of NG on a steel tube (5 cm diam, 15 cm lenght and 3 mm thick). Sorry for the quality of the pics (is because that's the best of a 30$ webcam). You can apreciate the size of the crack easily.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-26-2001 05:59 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cyware, I'm afraid we can't see the picture on your hard drive You need to upload somewhere on the web and put a link to it.
Cyware
New Member
Posts: 22
From: Nomatter
Registered: APR 2001
posted 04-28-2001 07:29 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can't understand why it doesn't work, but here is the link with the picture:
http://members.nbci.com/a_bab/new_page_1.htm
CodeMason
Frequent Poster
Posts: 383
From: Your Nightmares
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 05-06-2001 01:14 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It didn't work because your webspace provider (xoom) will not allow indirect access to files (including pictures), without going through your site first (sneaky bastards).
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-11-2001 05:46 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HNO3 fumes because it evaporates somehow and hydrates on the outside of the bottle!
Concidering what I just said:
1)if the surrounding air is dry, then it will not fume; but if very sturated with moisture then it will!
2)if the product is cold no evaporation can occur, then it will not fume; but if the heat is on, it will, since volatility increases!
3)if the surrounding pressure is high it defavorise evaporation and thus reduce the fumes!(pressure diminish from the see to the top of montains/with altitude).
Thus the limit % where it stops to fume is not easy to tell!