Fulminating powder - Archive File

[megalomania]

Fallout85
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From: U.S.
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 05-22-2001 12:44 AM
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I was told, many times, this substance was a high explosive that is why I list it here. What is the compound that forms that makes it explode? Does anyone have any experience? For anyone out there that is unfamillar with the substance it is found in Chemistry of Powder and Explosives. The ratio I use is 3 parts potassium nitrate, 2 parts potassium nitrate, 1 part sulfur. While molten (it turns brown when heated) and if subjected to more heat or a naked flame it explodes with a loud report. It's fun to make. BTW I did search the posts but I didn't find much of anything that helped. I am hoping for new info. Thanks.


CodeMason
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From: Your Nightmares
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posted 05-22-2001 03:57 AM
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The stuff you speak of is also called "yellow powder".

quote:
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I was told, many times, this substance was a high explosive that is why I list it here.
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It does seem to detonate, but I'd have some reservations about calling it a high explosive, since it's a mixture and not a compound.

quote:
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What is the compound that forms that makes it explode?
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I really don't know. You will need to ask an expert like PHILOU.

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Does anyone have any experience?
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I've made it a few times.

quote:
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For anyone out there that is unfamillar with the substance it is found in Chemistry of Powder and Explosives.
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It is also in a few other pyrotechnics "manuals".

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The ratio I use is 3 parts potassium nitrate, 2 parts potassium nitrate, 1 part sulfur.
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Hehe, I think you mean 3 parts KNO3, 2 parts KCO3 and 1 part S! And that's a pretty slow burning composition, only around 3 times as fast as black powder. The proper way is to gind together into a a very fine powder, 2 parts KNO3 and 1 part carbonate, then taking 4.5 parts of this and mixing it with 1 part (seperately) finely powdered sulfur. This burns roughly 8 times faster than black powder, faster if molten.
Hope I've been of a little help.




Alchemist
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From: Woodland hills,Ca.,L.A.
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 05-22-2001 10:12 AM
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Hello Fallout85 and etc.,
3 parts KNO3, 2 parts KCO3 and 1 part S is the correct formula!
Make sure your Potassium Carbonate (KCO3) is VERY dry.

I put half a tea spoon full of this in a small 1.5 inch diameter metal globe and set it on a hot plate. It blew a hole right through the bottom of the hot plate.

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Agent Blak
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From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-22-2001 10:18 AM
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only 3x faster than BP? sounds fast enough for you guy to use in firecrackers of Cater makers. From what I remember of the previous discussions on fulminating powder or yellow powder is:
that if molten an actual explosive compond is formed, But it will not explode just dry mixed. I have never tried is so This is what was said previously. The measurements were in weight(g) or volume(ml)? Please specify as the rule of thumb with pyro and chem is weight but I just have to make sure for it was not stated.
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A wise man once said:
"...There Will Be No
Stand Off At High Noon
... Shoot'em In The Back
And, Shoot'em In The Dark"

Agent Blak-------OUT!!



gcic
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From: Germany
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 05-22-2001 11:06 AM
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Do you actually know, that KCO3 doesn`t exist?
It must be K2CO3



Cipolla
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Registered: MAY 2001
posted 05-22-2001 12:11 PM
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Doesn't matter just as long as this crap burns slower than my grampa's denture everytime I test it.


DarkAngel
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From: ?
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posted 05-22-2001 03:52 PM
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Agent Black do you mean that it detonates?
Because KNO3 can't detonate right?
Can anyone tell me what the the Potassium Carbonate does in the mixture?

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DarkAngel

For explosives and stuff go to Section1 http://www.section1.f2s.com And http://run.to/section1
sendtosection1@hotmail.com



Fallout85
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From: U.S.
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posted 05-22-2001 04:56 PM
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Cipolla-It must be heated over a fire first.
BTW-It is supposed to form a compound. Potassium Polysulfide forms. This inturn is supposed to react with the Nitrate when the highest temp. is reached. I could be wrong about the compound thing, but I have tried mixing Potassium Sulfide with Potassium Nitrate. When ignited it burns fast, but when heated together it forms a truly explosive mixture. Like I said before I could be wrong.



FadeToBlackened
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posted 05-22-2001 05:44 PM
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I read (in an msds i think) that sodium sulfide can decompose violently when subject to shock... I would think potassium sulfide would do the same..


Agent Blak
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From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-22-2001 05:47 PM
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When to chemicals are heated together is forms different compounds. This changes the properties for different chemicals have different properties. It is supposed to explode whether the author(original source) meant Detonate or not. Apparently it goes off with a bang when unconfined this sound like it could be a candadate for detonation. I will have to have a dream involving this controversial substance.
------------------
A wise man once said:
"...There Will Be No
Stand Off At High Noon
... Shoot'em In The Back
And, Shoot'em In The Dark"

Agent Blak-------OUT!!



Fallout85
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Posts: 55
From: U.S.
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 05-22-2001 06:00 PM
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Oops!! I guess I did put Potassium Nitrate twice in my first post! Yes, the correct ratio is 3 parts Potassium Nitrate, 2 parts Potassium Carbonate, and 1 part Sulfur. Sorry for any confusion.


Alchemist
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Posts: 211
From: Woodland hills,Ca.,L.A.
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 05-22-2001 06:19 PM
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Hello gang,
I have found it really works better if you melt the Sulfur and Potassium Carbonate together first to form Potassium Polysulfide/s. This used to be called liver of Sulfur because of the color. It is hard to grind up though, but when mixed with the Potassium Nitrate as already discribed it really works great!

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Fallout85
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From: U.S.
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 05-22-2001 06:24 PM
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Thanks everybody! Keep posting!


the freshmaker
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From: Heaven
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 05-23-2001 03:30 PM
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I've done a few experiments with this (high) explosive. I found out if you add some al powder(around 5%) to this mix it will detonate much greater. I have packed this explosive in al-foil and then after that placed it in the glowin coal. once I detonated about 20gr. It blew up the whole fireplace. I found splintered pieces of glowing wood all over my garden. Some lay over 20 meters away.
-does anyone know how sensitive it is when you have molten it together and then cooled it down?


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good boy with bad ideas



Anthony
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From: England
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posted 05-23-2001 05:44 PM
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Anyone know if this will work with sodium carbonate? All that happens is the mix burns up without melting fully (the sulphur ignites), although the sodium carbonate may not have been dry, or is it's melting temp too high?


Fallout85
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From: U.S.
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 05-23-2001 05:49 PM
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I get the same when I use the sodium compound. You may have to find potassium carbonate. You can buy it from pyrotech.org or leach it from wood ashes. I've only ever bought it. I'm pretty sure it is less than $10 a pound and it works great.


Fallout85
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From: U.S.
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 05-23-2001 05:54 PM
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Fresh maker- you know I've really never tested it after the heating process as far as sensitivity, but I don't think it is very sensitive to shock. It is very spark sensitive though. Most of the time I blow it up molten and almost never save any.


Agent Blak
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Posts: 766
From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-23-2001 07:55 PM
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As for the arguement of wether it detonates or not...if Armstrong's mix classed as a High Explosive? Because if it is then this could be easily. Anyone else.
------------------
A wise man once said:
"...There Will Be No
Stand Off At High Noon
... Shoot'em In The Back
And, Shoot'em In The Dark"

Agent Blak-------OUT!!



Alchemist
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Posts: 211
From: Woodland hills,Ca.,L.A.
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 05-24-2001 10:12 AM
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Hello gang,
Potassium Carbonate can also be bought at Ceramic supply shops.

I also have never made it work with Sodium Nitrate and Sodium Carbonate, but others have clamed they have (SEE old posts).

Can anyone explain the chemistry of what is really happening with this mixture when it is melted and then explodes?

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the_wingman
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From:
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posted 05-24-2001 04:25 PM
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sodium carbonate should work if you dry it over a flame or in the oven. Soda, which is sold everywhere, contains a lot of water (Na2CO3.10H2O). The volume will decrease a lot.


Fallout85
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From: U.S.
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 05-24-2001 04:59 PM
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Agent Blak- In Davis's book the definition of primary explosives is that primary explosives detonate and explode wether they are confined or not, under the list of primaries is Armstrong's. Your probably right. Also, I'm sorry about the kewl post. I wasn't thinking.


Agent Blak
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Posts: 766
From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-24-2001 07:05 PM
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what about AP..? I have seen my body touch of piles the size of the end of my finger with nothing more than a fire ball. The putty is different thought. Under any type of confinement AP always makes a good report(ie. every tried wraping some in a layer or so of Al Foil, and fuse it?).
------------------
A wise man once said:
"...There Will Be No
Stand Off At High Noon
... Shoot'em In The Back
And, Shoot'em In The Dark"

Agent Blak-------OUT!!



sealsix6
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Posts: 154
From: NYC,NYC,USA
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 05-24-2001 08:01 PM
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What is Potassium Carbonate used in with the ceramic supplys with so I know what to ask for?


Alchemist
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Posts: 211
From: Woodland hills,Ca.,L.A.
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 05-25-2001 10:53 AM
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Hello gang,
Sealsix6, Potassium Carbonate is a
strong flux and can be used as a color
modifier in ceramic glazes.

Also many other chemicals can be purched at CERAMIC shops. Good ones may even sell Potassium Nitrate, Potassium Dichromate, Many oxides (Iron, Chrome, copper, etc. ), and more!

Search the net for Ceramic chemicals and check your phone books!


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Fallout85
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Posts: 55
From: U.S.
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 05-25-2001 05:18 PM
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Does anyone know if fulminating powder can be used to initiate other explosions? Please test it for me. If it can ititiate somewhat insensite explosives you can bet it is a high explosive. And a tip use the faster burning formula.


Fallout85
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Posts: 55
From: U.S.
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 05-25-2001 06:44 PM
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Agent Blak- Wrapping it in foil and throwing it a big fire is really fun although since it is supposed to be hot to detonate, or what ever, fusing really isn't an option. It still burns fast enough to explode the foil like a regular firecracker when cold, but it isn't nearly as impressive. If you were fast you could stick a fuse in while it was hot. That could be very dangerous, because the fuse might ignite and you wouldn't be able to hold the foil unless you had thick gloves.


Anthony
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From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-26-2001 07:59 PM
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fulminating powder is not a practical HE and was little use other than a novelty or the dangerous act of melting and use the solidified compound as a propellant. Although NBK2000 did once suggest fixing a tin of the stuff to an exhaust manifold for a car bomb.


jin
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Posts: 111
From: uk
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-28-2001 09:13 PM
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has anybody had any success with the water activated fulminating powder the one with bismith and potassium tartarate,i read somewhere you could get the bismith out of pepto bismol but i have had no luck,any ideas on a method for extracion
[This message has been edited by jin (edited May 29, 2001).]



Alchemist
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Posts: 211
From: Woodland hills,Ca.,L.A.
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 05-30-2001 06:01 PM
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Hello Jin and others,
I have some more info on others that may be easier! I try to post them tonight!

FUMINATING POWDERS

1. Grind together 100 parts dried Antimony Potassium Tartrate (tartar emetic) , and 3 parts of lampblack, or charcoal powder. Put this in a clay pot or better a crucible that has had the insides rubbed with charcoal dust.Cover the pot or crucible tightly, then cover with a little more charcoal and heat at a high heat, via a blow torch or gas barbecue for 3 hours. Let cool at least 7 to 8 hours before opening. Quickly empty into a VERY dry airtight container. If all goes well, the above powder will FUMINATE (explode) violently on contact with water! This is due to the presence of elemental Potassium in the mixture.

2. Another mixture is 100 parts Antimony, 75 parts Potassium Bitartrate (cream of tartar) roasted to blackness (carbureted), and 12 parts lampblack or charcoal. Treat as above!

3. A third mixture is 60 parts Potassium Bitartrate (cream of tartar) roasted to blackness, 120 parts Bismuth, and 1 part Potassium Nitrate (saltpeter). Also treat as in #1.

[Dr_Pind]

If this powder is a HE, couldn't it be used in detonators? One could make the potassium polysulfide and mix it with the KNO3 (and maby powdered Al) in very finely powdered form and then pres it into the cap, or how about casting it into the cap? I guess this would make a more reliable detonation (could be dangerous though). This would be great for persons who doesn't want to handle peroxides, or can't make em. Has anyone got any idea about the shelf-life? Sounds as if there is a lot of potential in this mix. I'll do some experimenting soon!

[Bert]

Dr_Pind:

I've made this, back when I was playing around with such things. It is probably more dangerous to make (at least by the method of heating all ingredients together!) than organic peroxides.
The second time I tried, I got a detonation in my face. Don't try more than a gram or so of this.
It may store better, but there's a good reason that it never caught on and fulminate/chlorate priming mixes DID.

[Dr_Pind]

How about pressing the mix of potassium polysulfide and KNO3 in the cap, and then melting (maby sintering) it remotely with some sort of temperature control? I also got an idea while reading about this potassium polysulfide; could it be used as a sensitizer in AN formulations or similar nitrate mixes?

I believe ,from what I hear, that this explosive is VERY brisant(splintering wood and blowing holes in tin cans)considering that it is merely a simple mix! Sounds about as powerfull as AP! Also, the fact that it is able to explode in the open like AP, would probably list it as a HE!(all though the velocity could be low). I DO believe that it could initiate other explosives, if not in the form of a detonator, then in the form of a booster. If this isn't the case, one could always use it in salutes.
Also, I'm working on a balanced equation for a better mix than the simple 3:2:1 mix. This should give better performance. I'l post it as soon as I've finished it.

[Guerilla]

How about pressing the mix of potassium polysulfide and KNO3 in the cap, and then melting (maby sintering) it remotely with some sort of temperature control?
I think that would be even worse method than the original procedure which includes only one melting process. When the carbonate and sulfur are reacted together with the KNO3, the heat will be used for both, to form the polysulfides and to melt the nitrate. If you heat pre-made polysulphides with KNO3, it is more likely to explode before a uniform mixture is obtained, as it would almost directly lead them to react together.

I have had hard time to successfully melt more than a few batches of yellow powder at a go, just when it have looked to be completely melted, I've ended up with ringing ears..or it have only deflagrated. So temperature control alone wont help much, unless you have an accurate and steadily warming heat source..

I doubt it will find use as a reliable initiator, simply because of the presence of the polysulfides. But these are only my humble thoughts.. and no one has yet tried it so good luck for your experiments.

[Marvin]

Woah, now hold on there.

Yes it will explode unconfined, but only when hot/molten. When cold/granulated its just a pyrotechnic mixture.

The anhydrous sodium carbonate/sodium nitrate version works, its needs a fair amount of 'cooking' at a low temperature, keeping it molten and mixing well before raising the temperature considerably will cause it to detonate. For the cooking stage a very tiny flame worked best and doing it outside prooved impossible as the slightest draught interfered. The cooled powder just before it would have detonated did not even burn well for me, and it absorbed water from the air very easily and gave off H2S. At the time I was playing with this I couldnt get potassium carbonate, so I dont know how the K version reacts, anyone care to fill in the gaps?

The bang even in small amounts is impressivly loud.

From memory the amounts are almost correct for forming potassium disulphide in the melt and its not clear if a particular compound forms, though this is rather unlikley. More believeable is that the extreme incorperation of the liquids, beaten only by same molecule oxidising/reducing groups, coupled with the high temperature and liquid state is what alows the mixture to go high order.

[Blackhawk]

It seems that all the problems with premature detonation come when people are melting the polysulfide with the KNO3 mix, people have talked about creating the polysulfide and then doing a recrystalisation with the KNO3 in water, I understand that this won't work due the hydroscopic nature of the K2CO3, but how about simply ball-milling the polysulfide/KNO3 mix to get the proper particle union, or am I missing something about a particular sensetivity to friction or a reaction between the KNO3 and the polysulfide mix when heated, ball milling will not produce a high a quality mixture as melting might but it would still be usefull as a pyrotechnic composition if not a detonator. If I can get my hands on some K2CO3 I will try it, I have small amounts of everthing else.

[Marvin]

Pot carbonate is essensially nolonger present in the polysulphide mix, but the sulphides themseves are water sensitive.

Ball milling wont work. Mixing 2 liquids gets you incorperation on a molecular scale. You cant even come close to that by grinding powders.

On the brighter side, it should be possible to create a eutectic to force the mix to melt at a lower temperature. A mixture of sodium and pot carbonates, and a mixture of sodium and pot nitrates for example. Equal molar amounts usually results in typically the lowest temperatures from memory.

[Blackhawk]

Thats a good point, I suppose the heating can be made realitively safe by doing sub 1g ammounts and slowly heating on as small a heat as possible, but from what I see the powder has little practical purpose anyway, aside from a suprisingly loud bang, and the problems in manufacture make the comp more of a bragging substance than a pyrotechnic workhorse (like TACN/TACC vs AP as far as primaries go)