Permagnate Flash - Archive File

[megalomania]

endotherm
Frequent Poster
Posts: 164
From: dunno
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 03-07-2001 06:17 PM
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I have some questions about Permagnate Flash.
This explosive mixture has not been thorougly discussed and i believe a topic on this would answer many of mine and others questions about this mixture. Here are my questions.
1) What is sulfurs role in this f/o mixture, is it a necessary component?
2)Does p. permagnate need to be powdered for the mixture.
3)?PROB NOT?? Det/ Velocity? ?PROB NOT??
4) Can the mixture be ignited by a visco fuse?


J
Moderator
Posts: 602
From: United Kingdom
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 03-07-2001 06:53 PM
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1. Sulphur is generally used to lower the ignition temperature of many comps.
2. No, but it will increase the burn rate as in any flash comp.

3. I doubt it detonates, but I am prepared to be proved wrong if anyone has done any reliable tests.

4. Yes.

Q. Can it go off without warning?

A. Yes.

Be careful, I wouldn't want to risk confining it in a salute, the longer you're handling it the greater the chance it will go off and injur you. If you're sceptical, mix some Permanganate crystals with some Glycerine. Notice how it heats up and bursts into flame after about 30 seconds.

J

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"If the aquarium water has to be drunk don't waste the fish. In fact they'll probably be the easiest to eat even if you don't need the water. The cat is next in the pot." - John 'Lofty' Wiseman



PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 03-09-2001 08:20 AM
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Or simply grind KMnO4 cristalls with black powder...(0.5g/2g) most certainly it will burst into flamme- I had the case once when I was making a Black powder that could be set off by glycerine.... that's a kind of Armstrong mix belive me...
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"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"



SATANIC
Frequent Poster
Posts: 237
From: australia
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 03-09-2001 10:19 PM
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the SAS uses it as a fire starter, mixed 50/50 with sugar, and ground between two rocks to light it. this is because they have the sugar in rat packs and KMnO4 infirst aid kits. all according to the SAS escape evasin and survival handbook.


the freshmaker
Frequent Poster
Posts: 175
From: Heaven
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 03-11-2001 05:44 AM
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Does someone know the best/most powerfull ratio (%weights) for permanganate flashpowder?
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You can't survive the life!



J
Moderator
Posts: 602
From: United Kingdom
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 03-11-2001 05:45 AM
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I've seen Permanganate mentioned in several survival books. It's use for water purification makes it easy to buy without arousing suspicion too.
J

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"If the aquarium water has to be drunk don't waste the fish. In fact they'll probably be the easiest to eat even if you don't need the water. The cat is next in the pot." - John 'Lofty' Wiseman



Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 03-11-2001 10:34 AM
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You can buy KMnO4 by the kilo from garden centres for killing algae in water butts or something like that.


Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 03-11-2001 01:16 PM
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Permanganate flash = 3/2/1 KMN04/Al/S


the freshmaker
Frequent Poster
Posts: 175
From: Heaven
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 04-06-2001 03:46 PM
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hey everybody
I'm going to make a litle research about permanganate flash in a few days.
I was just curious if anyone have made some test about this flashpowder before. If so I would be very happy to hear from you.

If you just have some info or if you have tried this flashpowder I would appreciate your input.

I'm gonna test: Stability, power, ratios etc.
I will post the results as soon they are ready.


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good boy with bad ideas



Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-06-2001 04:17 PM
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I've had a quick play with this stuff, it can take a while to ignite with a flame like other flashes but goes instantly with a fuse. I noticed that when the ingredients aren't as fine as they could be, the sulphur ignites, burns for a while then the flash goes. With fine ingrdients this dealy doesn't appear.
It is very fast and doesn't require very fine ingredients or intimate mixing to burn very quickly (unlike other pyro comps). When it goes it throws a nice shower of Al sparks (althiugh this may just be my Al [235mesh speherical, filler grade]).

Makes a very loud bang (not too far behind AP I'd say) when confined in a simple paper triangle cracker.

Makes a lot of smoke, I lit off about 5gm in ShedLab and smoke poured out of every gap in the shed (quite handy for leak finding!), I'm surprsied the neighbours didn't think it was on fire.



J
Moderator
Posts: 602
From: United Kingdom
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-06-2001 04:29 PM
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I've made some in the course of my Permanganate/Glycerine experiments. I mixed some together in a rough 50/50(Al, 300 mesh paint grade) ratio, and lit it. Very hard to ignite with a match, but it flashed and produced a shower of sparks even with very course Permanganate crystals.
If I were you, I'd mix it up as you need it. Don't leave it drying in a cracker overnight, it might not be there in the morning ;-)

J

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"If the aquarium water has to be drunk don't waste the fish. In fact they'll probably be the easiest to eat even if you don't need the water. The cat is next in the pot." - John 'Lofty' Wiseman



-A-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 100
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 04-07-2001 12:27 AM
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Permanganate based flash powders are a little unstable, exercise caution and you will be fine.


Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-10-2001 07:24 PM
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Wow, that was lucky!
Both KNMO4 flash and AP will bite you if you're not careful but AP is ok as long as you're sensible with and wash it throughly. A film canister of flash would be a lot more forgiving than AP if you were too close though...



PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-11-2001 08:21 AM
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You can play with everything you want as soon as you know what you are dealing with, as you know its properties and take extra care when handling it (always as it was for the first time, in little quantity, never stored all in one place,...).
Always think to what it can do to you/your hands, when you see what it can do to a tree, a concrete block, a metal plate,...
it will cool you down (if you don't do this,... you will for sure be cooled down "ad vitam eternam" or you will no more forget to do so because of an accident that could have cost you a lot but that by chance didn't).
BTW: It is not because nothing happened 49 times on 50 that the 50th couldn't be your last one. Even with 1/100 chance to misluck, I wouldn't take the risk....

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"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"



Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-11-2001 03:41 PM
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Umm, I depends what you want to do with it really. I don't use KMNO4 flash for any practical purpose.
It's really up to you, there's a lot more you can do with a HE like AP that you can't do with flash. I think I'd trust good AP more than KMNO4 flash even though the AP is more dangerous.

As Philou says, the danger comes with complacency you just have to stay on the ball and you should be OK. Constantly think "what would happen if it went off right now?" if the answer is "it'd blow my nuts off" then you could well be doing better.

My only accident with AP was caused by complacency, I left it to dry under a lamp as I usually did. The first time I used the lamp to dry AP, I made sure that it got no where near hot enough to ignite the AP. I didn't take into account the effect residue acid would have. So when I had a batch with residue acid, I wasn't doing anything different so no more safety checks were needed (I thought). It went off and I no longer use a lamp to dry the AP and after filtering and washing with cold water I dump the AP into a sodium bicarbonate bath, stir well, leave ot soak and then filter and rinse again (after neutralising the filter cloth in the bicarb soda bath).

My AP procedure now takes a little longer but I think of it as an insurance. I know that I've reduced the risk even further giving me even better odds of being OK.



J
Moderator
Posts: 602
From: United Kingdom
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-11-2001 05:28 PM
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I have never made AP (or any other primary explosive), and I don't intend to in the near future. I stick with low explosives, and I'm very careful. I'm still interested in HE's, and methods of detonating them without a primary.
If you're going to make AP (or any other explosive), don't rush into it. There's a mine of information in the Peroxides section, including several things that have gone wrong, Anthony's probably being the most spectacular ;-)

Make sure you have adequate safety equipment. Think carefully about the procedure, and ask yourself what would happen if the explosive detonated without warning at any point. Would you be intact? If the answer is no, review the safety procedures. This applies to any explosive.

J

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"If the aquarium water has to be drunk don't waste the fish. In fact they'll probably be the easiest to eat even if you don't need the water. The cat is next in the pot." - John 'Lofty' Wiseman



Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-11-2001 06:40 PM
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Sure thing. In fact I started writing a procedure for AP (for my own reference), I'll finish it tomorrow and upload it with a link because it's getting on for midnight here now.
Hope it will help



Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-12-2001 02:42 PM
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http://www.geocities.com/eawfuk/Explosives_Synthesis.doc
I think I've included everything, please tell me if anyone spots any mistakes.

Umm, ok, this is fucking wierd. If you click the link you get an error page, if you copy and paste the URL to a new browser window it works...

"your mistletoe is no match for my TOW-missle!"

[This message has been edited by Anthony (edited April 12, 2001).]



chair
New Member
Posts: 22
From:
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 05-02-2001 02:25 PM
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Perhaps I'm a little late in this conversation. But I've made KMnO4 flash before, and it was very nice. I enclosed it in a spherical case, and ignited it via fuse. I lit it, and threw it in the water, it went off with an excellant bang, and splashed quite a bit of water around. I used about 3 or 4 grams of it. The Al powder was made with a grinder and Al foil. The case was of home made variety. I made it in the same fashion as a regular cylindrical case, but I used a marble instead of a dowel.
I had read of the dangers of this composition before, so for safe keeping, I didn't seal the cracker until the night before I used it, and I kept it in the regfridgerator alone(nothing else with it).

[scarletmanuka]

This is my first reply and I'm sorry if I'm to late in the topic, but ive had quite a bit of experience with KMnO4 flash. I've tried several comps, but the best is 33% Al Powder (bronzing powder dried in the oven) with about 5% Sulfur. I grind the KMnO4 in a coffee grinder untill I can filter it through a coffee filter. This mixture will make a pop if burnt in the open and a very loud bang (comparable to AP) if confined in a triangle firecracker. It is sensitive to any flame and temp's greater than 230C (ignited in an oven at that temperature). It is not sensitive to friction or shock unless organic or Carbon containing fuels are added. For illumination purposes the best mix is 33% filed alfoil (anything finer will not be as bright, dont know why?) it requires substantial Sulfur ie >10%. Use the KMnO4 granule size to alternate burn rate.

[Desmikes]

This formula is slightly different from the ones above so I wanted to share it. It is slightly friction and impact sensitive. This formula will ignite itself if it gets wet and produces very loud explosion.
Potassium Permanganate 2parts, Sulfur 1 part, Aluminum Powder 1 part 400 mesh or finer.

The following is not an explosive, it's more like a demo to play with. Mix 30ml of 20 volume hydrogen peroxide solution with 20ml of ethanol and light, then add 0.5 g of potassium permanganate powder and stand back. There will be a series of loud bangs. Coarse permanganate gives fewer but louder bangs.
On permanganate topic, it can be used to ignite thermite

[scarletmanuka]

I tried Desmikes formula that spontaneously ignited with water, but i had no success(i'm sure it would ignite if sugar was added. Also catalysing KMnO4 Flash with MnO2 does not work as with chlorate flash. A new flash I experimented with today was 6parts KMnO4 plus 2part Al plus 1Part S and 1Parts matchheads (grinded and dissolved in white spirits which removes the binding and recrystalised) it is verysensitive and makes a nice bang even unconfined. KMnO4 plus other oxidisers work well together in sensitive explosives, very fast.

[vulture]

Mn2+ salts will catalyse the decomposition of permanganate.

[Desmikes]

scarletmanuka from your post i'm unclear whether your flash ignited when you added water or not. If you are trying to get flash to self-egnite just add a drop of glycerine.
What's the point of adding sulfur anyway? is it to make more flash? I haven't tried but it seems like 60%:40% of permangnate to al should make a significant boom.

[scarletmanuka]

Sorry Desmikes, I thiught your first composition would ignite when it gets wet. I qoute:

"This formula will ignite itself if it gets wet and produces very loud explosion.
Potassium Permanganate 2parts, Sulfur 1 part, Aluminum Powder 1 part 400 mesh or finer."

but yeah, I have no problems igniting it with glycerine. The extra sulfur(in v.small amounts is used to sensitise small amounts of flash, like in triangle crackers, it is not really necessary for large salutes etc.
I do stand somewhat corrected, Mn2+ salt will catalyse the decomposition of KMnO4 but only in solution. I find it significantly slows down the rate of reaction if added to KMnO4 flash. It works well for other oxidizers though.

[IPN]

Could potassium permanganate used to make barium permanganate (only slightly soluble in water) by mixing a solution of KMnO4 and Ba(NO3)2 ?

Just interested because KMnO4 is a potent oxidizer and I was thinking that BaMn2O8 could be even more potent oxidizer..

[vulture]

Why would Ba(MnO4)2 be a more potent oxidizer? The redox potential of the permanganate ion stays virtually the same.

Ba(MnO4)2 has an oxygen content of 34,11%
KMnO4 has an oxygen content of 40,50%

So in fact you're adding more "dead" weight.

[IPN]

Oh, didn't think of that.. Thanks for the correction vulture.
Well at least it should give green flame if someone wants that.

Btw. how did you calculate the oxygen content?

[vulture]

Quite simple. Take the sum of all oxygen atoms, divide it by the sum off all atoms in the compound and multiply by 100%. Couldn't be easier. Also, programs like chemsketch will usually indicate this.

[sean]

when i make it i use mg powder insted of aluminium powder and it works fine with a huge flash/fireball with loads of smoke.

[Bert]

sean-

In the future, (if you are still around) use proper English. Capitalize the first word in sentences and also the word "I".It is also normal to capitalize names of elements- It's Mg, not "mg". You might also wish to tell us something we didn't know or at least ask an interesting question. Most people here know what flash powder can be made of and what it does when ignited. Re-read The Forum FAQ (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/misc.php?s=&action=faq). And read through the Banned For Life! (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=16) section- (be sure and hit the selector for "since the beginning") .

[T_Pyro]

Originally posted by vulture
Quite simple. Take the sum of all oxygen atoms, divide it by the sum off all atoms in the compound and multiply by 100%.

If you want the ratios to be in terms of weight/weight (which is more practical), you'll have to multiply the number of oxygen atoms present by 16, divide by the molecular weight, and multiply by 100.
For Ba(MnO4)2,
% oxygen by weight =(8*16)/(137+8*16+55*2)*100
=128/375 *100
=34.133%