salts of high explosives

[Alchemist]

Hello all,

Well I just got back from a vacation of sorts. Any way a friend that I met on vacation was experimenting with SALTS OF HIGH EXPLOSIVES. For example, while I was there he made, DINITROCRESOLATE (a primary explosive).
He made it by reacting TNT with Lead Oxide in a alcoholic solution to from the primary explosive. They wher yellow crystals that exploded from heat and a hammer blow!

My question is, has anyone else played with this or ANY other salts of high explosives or have any info on them from books, the net, etc., that you can post?

Thanks.......................................

[Fallout85]

Page 147 of Chemistry and Powder of Explosives. I type exactly as the book reads.

Beta- and Gama-TNT lose their active nitro group by the action of aqueous alkali and yield salts of dinitro-meta-cresol. The mixed dinitro-meta-cresols which result may be nitrated to trinitro-meta-cresol, a valuable explosive. Their salts, like the picrates, are primary explosives and sources of danger. Beta- and Gama-TNT react with lead oxide in alcohol to form lead dinitrocresolates, while Alpha-TNT under the same conditions remains unaffected.

Hope this was of any help and not something you've heard/read before.

[Mr Cool]

I, like many people, have played around with picrates (lead and ammonium) and lead trinitroxybenzoate (or maybe just lead benzoate, go look at the topic), but you probably know about these three already.
I'm very interested in the ammonium salt of dinitrourea. I'm going to try making it if DNU can be made with an NH4NO3/H2SO4 mix instead of 100% HNO3 and H2SO4. I can't see any reasons why it wouldn't. The trouble with DNU, apparently, is that it hydrolises in moisture and disappears, but its salts don't. The zinc salt of mononitrourea could also be fun, I saw a method for making it somewhere. If I try either of these I will eventually put the results up on my web page. Salts of picramic acid might also be useful, probably less sensitive than picrates.

[PHILOU Zrealone]

Alfa is 2-4-6 TNT
Beta and gamma are (I don't know wich is wich) 2-4-5 TNT and 2-3-4 TNT.

Nitrogroups in ortho of another nitrogroup or in meta of a methyl group are easily replaced by another group! From this I can say your friend has used expensive material since during the normal TNT process nearly only the 2-4-6 is formed! Very little meta oriented TNT (max 7% alfa and Beta); the last ones must then be made by synthesis.
I can also predict you to have two different possible dinitrometacresolates (alfa and beta).

It must be as powerful as DNT: VOD 4000-5000m/s!

------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"

[Alchemist]

Hello gang,

The idea here was NOT that my friend made LEAD DINITROCRESOLATE, but that it is a salt (COMPOUND) of a high explosive, and maybe others might have come across some other salts (COMPOUNDS) of other high explosives they might like to share. There must be a lot more out there that could be of interest here!

"THE MORE WE READ, THE MORE WE LEARN!"

[FadeToBlackened]

Philou Zrealone once made a post about calcium nitronate.. Good reading

[qwerty]

does anybody know how sensitive lead picrate is as compared to ap or hmtd and if it is compatible whit metals

[FadeToBlackened]

Do a search, and some reading wouldnt hurt. Organic peroxides are some of the most sensitive explosives known. All primaries are sensitive, but peroxides much more than most.

[This message has been edited by FadeToBlackened (edited August 05, 2001).]

[Mr Cool]

Lead picrate is more sensitive but more stable than HMTD. In other words, it's easier to set off by shock or friction, but is less likely to detonate by itself or decompose in storage.

[Hex]

I've made the disodium salt of 1,3,5-trinitro-1,3,5-triazapentane from the reaction of 1,7-diacetoxy-2,4,6-trinitro-2,4,6-triazaheptane (BSX) with sodium methoxide. It can also be made from k-RDX in a similar way. I guess that heavy metal salts of this stuff would show initiating properties. BSX can be made from nitration of hexamine with acetyl nitrate at elevated temperatures.
Further to what Mr Cool said about DNU, I attempted the sulpuric/nitric synthesis and had no luck at first. I repeated it with a newly opened bottle of sulphuric and it worked fine, the implication being that the rection is (not surprisingly) very sensitive to water. However, I wonder if it would be possible to use 70% nitric if enough oleum was used to take up the water? The other thing I would suggest is that you don't waste your time trying to stir this one magnetically. Really good mechanical stirring, with a propeller and not a paddle is needed, or the urea just smolders on the surface. I guess AN/sulphuric mix would be at least as viscous as nitric/sulphuric. As far as I know, only the ammonium salt (55% yield) and hexamine salt have been successfully prepared. An attempt to make the potassium salt was unsuccessful - the authors suggest that it forms complexes with solvents and can't be purified.

[This message has been edited by Hex (edited August 06, 2001).]

[PHILOU Zrealone]

Use dry UN/96%H2SO4/98%HNO3 to make DNU.
Temperature is a key, cold is fine, fast filtration under cold condition too.
Yield near 98%. But the product is unstable towards water so washing will reduce the yield. The stable salt known is NH4 one but while processing you lose 50% of the original DNU.
Dinitramides, dinitroureas, medina salts must also be interesting primaries.
What about an Al derivative?
Al(N(NO2)2)3 Al2(NNO2-CO-NNO2)3
My guess is that the VOD of those salts is way over common initiators/primaries.

------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"

[Hex]

Philou,
I have managed to make the DNU, and it's surprisingly stable if the last traces of nitrating acid are removed by washing with trifluoroacetic acid. On most occasions, I've only made it to do the hydrolysis to nitramide anyway, so I haven't been to careful about keeping it dry!!
I've made the Barium salt of MEDINA, but no others. I don't recall there being any particular precautions with regard to handling it, so I guess it's not very sensitive. Can't say I'm too interested in metal salts - they're getting a bit close to being inorganic chemistry (the Devil's own favourite subject)!

[This message has been edited by Hex (edited August 06, 2001).]

[qwerty]

to fadetoblackened.
I did a surch but couldn't find anything.
Ps what is the forbidden library as I have no acces to it.(forbiddem??? maybe)

[FadeToBlackened]

There is no library, as far as I know. NBK2000 ran it, and now well he doesnt have the access or something. surf.to/megalomania has quite a bit of information. Some things to search for are "HTMD" "AP" "PEROXIDE". one member from here had a HTMD cratermaker or something of the like in his pocket when it decided to go off. Some organic peroxides scarcely stand touching.

[qwerty]

hmtd reacts with metall right, how do you get the idea to make a cratermaker with hmtd.

[FadeToBlackened]

If you want to keep steel from rusting, what do you do to it? You put a protective coating on it (paint). Though im not sure as if he did that.. Search the forum for posts about homemade caps or detonators, and you'll see.