which is better HMTD or AP - Archive File

[megalomania]

CyclonitePyro
Frequent Poster
Posts: 55
From: You Wish
Registered: APR 2001
posted 04-11-2001 02:36 PM
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I've been reading messages on the forum and everyone is talking about how they used AP as a detonator and AP firecrackers but HMTD has more common ingredients, and is less sensitive than AP, and correct me if I'm wrong, HMTD is also more powerful. I'm planning on making HMTD but I'm hearing a lot about AP, so which is better? And how would I detonate ANFO with HMTD or AP?(how much)


simply RED
Frequent Poster
Posts: 240
From: HELL
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 04-11-2001 03:23 PM
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AP is 100 times easier to make in large quantities, that's why the forum members usually use it instead of HMTD.
AP synthesys uses mathereals easier to find than HMTD (clear hexamine especially).
Yes! HMTD is more powerful than AP (lead tests HMTD 340, AP 250).
Finely powdered ANFO with 3 % diesel will need 12 grams HMTD to detonate in carboard container. 50 AP grams or less will also work correctly(AP is easier to make in such quantities that's why I suggest 50 grams).


Mr Explosi
New Member
Posts: 26
From: Germany
Registered: MAR 2001
posted 04-11-2001 04:04 PM
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But HMTD has the detonation speed of 4800 m/s and AP 5300 m/s. SAo i don t know how you can measure the Power? Wicht produces more gas or what?


PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-12-2001 03:36 AM
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I have seen VOD data tables of AP and when pressed you can even reach the 6000 m/s!
Sensitivity to friction is the same for both HMTD and AP (0.1 N) but sensitivity to impact are different AP (0.3Nm), HMTD (0.6Nm).
I really think that lead block test don't give an idea of the performances as a cap/detonator (partially but not completely).A lot of initiating explosives have a low lead block test....
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"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"



Cricket
Frequent Poster
Posts: 160
From: USA
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 04-12-2001 09:02 AM
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Hey, PHILOU Zrealone, think you can find that chart? I recently asked how much AP or HMTD could be compressed safely, and this has me much more curious now. Thanks.


CyclonitePyro
Frequent Poster
Posts: 55
From: You Wish
Registered: APR 2001
posted 04-12-2001 10:45 AM
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Hydrochloric acid can be used in place of sulfuric acid in AP right. Sulfuric acid was a major turn off for making AP. Could someone give me a recipe using hydrochloric acid that gives me a non-suicidal yield. Tell me how much your recipe makes to I can calculate how much more or less of ingrediants to use so I can get the right amount of AP to make for me. Thanks


PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-12-2001 11:13 AM
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HMTD:
VOD/d/ws vs TNT
4511/0.88/?%
4500/1.1/60%
5100/1.57/110% (max)

AP:
3065/0.68/71%
5290/1.2/83%
can be pressed more!I tell you how much tomorrow if I have time!


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"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"



bryan_wilson65
New Member
Posts: 16
From: Ouagadougou, -, Niger
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 05-11-2001 10:07 AM
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Do you make these tests yourself? It seems like an interesting thing. A lead test requires a lot of hardware, though. I guess you're not doing those...
How about the sensitivity of HMTD, i read som rumours again about it being even more sensitive than AP?



bryan_wilson65
New Member
Posts: 16
From: Ouagadougou, -, Niger
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 05-12-2001 02:21 PM
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Aargh. Did I write that? I must have been tired. Pardon me. What I meant was, more experiments connected to real-world experiances should be published, and experiments should be made. I am not really interested in large scale manufacturing of AP or HMTD but the tests are interesting. And if others have use for them, I write about them. I am planing a series of AP vs HMTD tests in a near future. Probably during next week.

[Bryan]

I have managed to press AP a lot more than HMTD (in my rocket press), also AP's cheaper, and you can make many mixes with it (APPN, APAN), you can use metal casings, and it doesn't need tons of stirring, and can be made with just about any concentration of peroxide, it doesn't need loads of temperature control, and it still seems to form, no matter how badly you f*** it up, the chemicals are easily found, and you can use very contiminated precursors, you can use HCL and still get good yeilds, you can easily make 200g batches no problems, it's also better in polumas (I think so anyway), and it's less UV sensitive.....

HMTD on the other hand, stores better, doesn't stink, and has a nice boom, instead of the AP crack....

I like AP much better... (I wonder why :rolleyes: )

Bryan

[Anthony]

"it doesn't need tons of stirring, and can be made with just about any concentration of peroxide, it doesn't need loads of temperature control"

Same for HMTD!

I've noticed any difference in sound upon detonation...

[Sonny Jim]

I happen to be new here, this is my forst post, so greetings all.

I have observed that AP makes a sharp crack upon detonation as previously stated, and that HMTD makes more of a BANG, or even a BOOM of you detonate a larger amount. I've also occasionally observed a flash of fire from HMTD detonations but never from an AP explosion.

Many people will disagree, but I believe HMTD to be more sensetive that AP, definately to mechanical stress. It's hardly a scientific test, but I find HMTD much easier to set off with a hammer blow than AP. Another not so technical test I do is wrap a small amount of each explosive in paper, lightly press it, and shoot it with my .22 air rifle. HMTD nearly always goes off, but AP seldom does. Both charges are shot from an equal distance, before you ask.

HMTD, in my experience, stores better than AP, but this is not to say that it stores well.

As for power, I would say HMTD has more kick to it, however, if AP is pressed, and it seems to press better than HMTD, then it's power is greatly improved over setting it off loose.

Regarding preparation, I think AP and HMTD are six and two threes. I don't usually bother to prepare HMTD in an ice bath, I just chill the peroxide down in the fridge prior to adding the hexamine. With AP, however, I do prepare an ice bath, and still chill the ingredients beforehand. You can definately save time making AP though I think, as intermittent stirring is not really nescessary after all chemicals are added.

I try to be more careful controlling the temperature when making AP, due to the formation of different isomers at different temperatures. It seems a waste of time to go to the trouble of making something if you know you're only going to get second best.

As for chemicals, I think the precursors for both explosives are easy enough to get and cheap. I prefer working with the chemicals used in HMTD though. Cirtic acid is not as nasty as mineral acids are, for example. AP stinks, all throughout making it. This is not really a great issue, but it irritates the parents more than the odourless HMTD does, when in the fridge. This could be relevant to other 'home dwelling' chemists, so bear it in mind.

One word regarding the acid addition for AP. I dont think it makes any difference what acid you use, but I have heard some people say that H2SO4 seems to make dyclo AP, and they therefore prefer HCL. This is not an accurate thought process, however. The only reason I can think of that H2SO4 supposedly favours dyclo AP formation is that it is usually bought in >90% concentrations and therefore creates a lot more heat per ml added than the usually lower concentrated HCL. Therefore I recommend diluting any concentrated acid before using it as a catalyst in AP manufacture, to help keep the reaction cool, ensuring a better product.

To cut a long story short, AP is easy to make, yes, but it's manufacture becomes considerably more complex if you actually try to make a good job of it. I think the HMTD synthesis process is less forgiving with respect to carelessness than the AP one is, but the final product in terms of explosive performance is better. The big drawback of HMTD is that it is dangerous to let it touch metal objects, as it becomes ustable. AP seems compatible with commonly used metals though.

Hope someone found this of interest. Sonny Jim.

[MightyQuinn®]

I have observed that AP makes a sharp crack upon detonation as previously stated, and that HMTD makes more of a BANG, or even a BOOM of you detonate a larger amount.

Yesterday I hit the range with 90 odd grams of AP. 6 grams in a film container, then 5 grams in pile struck with shovel** and 75+ grams in a 1LB ricotta cheese plastic tub w/ lid.

**See the AP thread for a warning about this practice.....it is NOT advisable.

I used a fuse for the film vial and got a faily sharp crack for a report.

I *shot* literally the 75g lot all at once with my 8mm rifle so as to avoid driving it another 75 miles home :D . It was most CERTAINLY a *boom!* I was deeper and more powerful that I could have hoped!

It was dark out (we were packing up to go) and I saw a slight flash and a few sparks (reminded me of embers floating up from a fire pit)

I shot the tub from 100 yards and felt a nice chest thump.

[Myrol]

If you're neutralising the AP very well you got a nearly odorless product! Only the fresh acidified slurry smells nasty :p That rules also for HMTD The Fresh slurry smells ugly sweet but the final product--> odorless!

[Spleenman]

If you're neutralising the AP very well you got a nearly odorless product! Only the fresh acidified slurry smells nasty :p That rules also for HMTD The Fresh slurry smells ugly sweet but the final product--> odorless!

I don't find the smell nasty at all. My AP always has a rather pleasant scent both before and after the neutralization process.

[kingspaz]

given the relative volatility of both HMTD and AP and their rather unstable structue i would expect both to have some sort of odor even after neutralisation.

[Myrol]

Yesterday I made some new HMTD to test how strong pure HMTD really is (in comparism with AP!). I would say AP is defenately better as HMTD in 4 points: 1. The Precoursors for AP are almost for everyone fast and pure avialable, Hexamine must be often purificated (I must do this everytime.....unfortunately :rolleyes: ) 2. Acetone is easy in big amounts
purchaseable, if you're buying 10 Esbitboxes at once......be prepared for questions what you're doing whith so much "Esbit".......3. Formation of AP is nice slow and you can maintain the Temperature easy with little cooling without much trouble! If you're doing this with HMTD, it turns crazy......because you MUST chill GOOD to prevent hot spots and runaway's...I had this once with both Peroxides, believe me HMTD's runaway is worser! 4. The Yield.....After Filtration of my finished 180g Hexamine 550ml H2O2 30 and 275g Citric Acid Batch I was somewhat confused! So much Hexamine, SO MUCH HP, BUT so less HMTD.....oh maaaan...It seems like 120-150g HMTD.....if I compare this with AP.....urrrghh...not good.....the only REALLY good things with HMTD are its stronger and denser as AP and smell after nothing :D because its not volatile like AP! The other site.....it decomposes slowly for no reason and is incompatible with Metals :( !

[utax]

AP is a lot cheaper to make, but it is very sensitive. HMTD is not so sensitive, but it more expensive to make it. I would prefer AP, but be very careful with this shit!

[The_Rsert]

HMTD does fuse in longer contact with metals but it has (pressed) a velocity of about 340ml in a lead block.
AP does almostly only decompose but it has only a lead block expansion of 250ml(dimeric AP) and 270ml (trimeric AP).

The best way: Put in a plastik-tube a "electrical fuse" (I don't know the right english word), than 0.2 BP, than 0.5g Nitrostarch or 0.3g NC, than 2-4g AP and at least 2g HMTD for a little booster of the velocity. Than stopper the the tube with a platic-foil and wrap the tube with a thick adhesive foil.

Sorry about my bad English.

[Chris The Great]

AP melts so you can cast it, HMTD (as far as a quick google search turned up) decomposes. I highly recommend NOT casting AP, although, I have seen it melt before igniting while trying to light a sand grain size that was on the floor. Turned into a clear liquid before going pop. I suspect that if one did this, and did not die from the liquid exploding (as it would definatly be insanely sensitive to everything) then a very high density and power could be achieved.