megalomania
June 10th, 2003, 02:02 PM
Spudgunner
New Member
Posts: 33
From: MO,USA
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 04-12-2001 06:46 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok, I have never made AP, but am thinking about making a gram or two. I would have to guess how much chemicals, but I know the ratios, so I should get close. Anyway, what I am wanting to know is how powerful AP is compared to flashpowder using KClO4 and dark/black Al. What about AP putty using single base SP for it? I would like to know, ie, 4 grams flash is about equivalent to 1 gram AP, or whatever the ratio is. I dont know if I will even make any, probably not. I am just wanting to know about what the ratio on power is. Thank you in advance.
------------------
Give me immortality or give me death!
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-13-2001 07:24 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No simple answer because of too many parameters: density of AP or flash mix, confinement or not, strenght of the container if there is one, particle size of your flash mix, composition of the flash mix, quality of the Al black powder, thickness of the oxyd layer of the Al powder, balls or sheets,...?
You better test it yourself,first same weight, secondly same volume, thirdly same density,....ENJOY
We can't help you further!
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
jin
Frequent Poster
Posts: 111
From: uk
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-13-2001 10:04 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
if you use the same confinement for both the ap will have a lot more shattering power compaired to flashpowder witch has hardly any. but the loudness of the bang they make will be simular ap slightly louder.
Spudgunner
New Member
Posts: 33
From: MO,USA
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 04-13-2001 01:37 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thing is, I was not actually wanting to make AP, just seeing if it is necissary. I am doing squibs right now, the blood pack stuff. I am currently using about a quarter gram flash, which works quite well, but I want to get the "power pack" as small as I can. I was thinking maybe a tenth gram or so AP putty would be about the right amount. I currently am putting the flash powder in paper footballs. That gives it a lot of confinement so not much powder is needed, but unfortunatly, this also makes it somewhat thick, and wide too. What would be optimal would be a thing about the size of a small straw tall, and half an inch long. If you all dont think that AP putty could explode in such small quantities, please tell. The confinement would be between the blood pack and the backing material. And no, I am not taking chances. I am doing this safely, testing before on a person, etc. I have put a few on people so far, and they were very safe. I am not going to go into all my details on safety, etc, you are just going to have to trust me I am being safe about it.
(One effect I am trying to acheive would be a gunshot wound to the side of the head, without any cuts, which would be hard because your blood and explosive would have to be concealed under hair or something, which would be easy to see. I would like to do this on a closeup, but I have a feeling I will never be doing this. So dont worry about me blowing off someones head, since I could not do it safely, I wont be doing it.)
------------------
Give me immortality or give me death!
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-13-2001 02:54 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The beauty of AP putty is that it doesn't require any confinement to produce a powerful explosion and will detonate in any quantity. You can form it to any shape you need and you could do without any packaging simply dip the hardened putty in wax to waterproof it (from the paint).
I think it's definately worth a look into if you want extra small blood charges.
endotherm
Frequent Poster
Posts: 164
From: dunno
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 04-13-2001 06:01 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i found that Good Flash Powder is probably twice as loud as ap , but ap has twice the power, or maybe i just have good flash and bad ap
simply RED
Frequent Poster
Posts: 240
From: HELL
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 04-14-2001 05:25 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's difficult to compare non detonatable(maximum "detonation" velocity of flash is 1km/s) mathereal and detonatabla, as AP.
Acetone peroxide produces much greater pressure!
------------------
...SOMEONE RESORRECTED...
SHOOT HIM TWICE!
YTS
Frequent Poster
Posts: 61
From:
Registered: MAR 2001
posted 04-15-2001 01:22 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FLASH is louder than ap but know where near as powerfull ithink its loudness is due to heat of explosion making the gases around it expand anyway its louder
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-17-2001 07:47 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I must say I disagree with what Anthony has written! Nor AP, nor NC, nor a mix of both (AP putty) can detonate without confinement in ANY quantity; that's wrong!
Confinement reduce the minimum quantity at which a detonation can occur; but the limit stil exist!Under that specific mass deflagration or burning happens!
Otherwise there would be no critical diameter, no critical mass,...what is never the case for all known explosives.
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-17-2001 07:55 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've done it again. Sorry Philou, what I should have said in "practically" any quantity. I'm pretty sure I've touched off peices smaller than a match head (probably smaller) and had a detonation occur. I don't think he'd be using a charge anywhere as small as the critical mass.
wantsomfet
Frequent Poster
Posts: 236
From: EU
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 04-17-2001 10:31 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with Anthony - if light a piece AP-putty smaller than a matchhead it gives of a sharp crack on detonation (OK, the sound is no evidence for a detonation). That's a really tiny amount, so the minimum quantity is about 0,1g......
------------------
for best catfood visit:
catfood.tsx.org
the_wingman
Frequent Poster
Posts: 49
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 04-17-2001 11:20 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AP CAN detonate without confinement.
I once lighted a grain of very dry AP and it detonated half a meter away from my face. My ears rang for three days although it wasn't even a gram of AP.
shady mutha
Frequent Poster
Posts: 149
From: australia
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-17-2001 05:36 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A.P will always detonate at the right temperature even in tiny amounts.If you put flame to a.p it goes up with a 'pooof'if you slowly heated the same amount it would go 'crack'eventually
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-18-2001 05:08 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Velocity of sound is not difficult to surpass since it is only 350m/s and thus a lot of pyrotechnic mixtures goes easily over this when between 2000 and 350 m/s we are usually speaking of deflagration...since it is supersonic, a shockwave goes through your ears making some desorder and injuries...ears are really sensitive...there is a famous karate move that hits the two ears of the opponent and that can knok him down by blowing the inner ear-you don't even make a supersonic move to get that effect...
So NO NO NO sound of crack and ears ringing is definitely no proof of a detonation!!!!!
You are right to say that AP must have one of the lowest critical mass of all explosive; but this can only be studied via the critical diameter and the VOD under confinement at a given density and a certain diameter. Keeping the density constant and ploting all VOD as a function of the diameter, you should see a disruption in the curve showing the critical diameter in cm!
From the relation Dc=2Rc
you can understand that the critical volume in ccm is Vc=Dc*Dc*Dc= 8Rc*Rc*Rc
The critical mass is thus (knowing the density d=a and the volumic mass =a g/ccm =a kg/l =a tons/cmeter)
Mc=a g/ccm * Vc
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
bryan_wilson65
New Member
Posts: 16
From: Ouagadougou, -, Niger
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 05-11-2001 09:33 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now *this* is an interesting topic. How to do simple tests on the AP, so that we could compare the quality. And thereby also the stability, to some extent.
New Member
Posts: 33
From: MO,USA
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 04-12-2001 06:46 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok, I have never made AP, but am thinking about making a gram or two. I would have to guess how much chemicals, but I know the ratios, so I should get close. Anyway, what I am wanting to know is how powerful AP is compared to flashpowder using KClO4 and dark/black Al. What about AP putty using single base SP for it? I would like to know, ie, 4 grams flash is about equivalent to 1 gram AP, or whatever the ratio is. I dont know if I will even make any, probably not. I am just wanting to know about what the ratio on power is. Thank you in advance.
------------------
Give me immortality or give me death!
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-13-2001 07:24 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No simple answer because of too many parameters: density of AP or flash mix, confinement or not, strenght of the container if there is one, particle size of your flash mix, composition of the flash mix, quality of the Al black powder, thickness of the oxyd layer of the Al powder, balls or sheets,...?
You better test it yourself,first same weight, secondly same volume, thirdly same density,....ENJOY
We can't help you further!
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
jin
Frequent Poster
Posts: 111
From: uk
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-13-2001 10:04 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
if you use the same confinement for both the ap will have a lot more shattering power compaired to flashpowder witch has hardly any. but the loudness of the bang they make will be simular ap slightly louder.
Spudgunner
New Member
Posts: 33
From: MO,USA
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 04-13-2001 01:37 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thing is, I was not actually wanting to make AP, just seeing if it is necissary. I am doing squibs right now, the blood pack stuff. I am currently using about a quarter gram flash, which works quite well, but I want to get the "power pack" as small as I can. I was thinking maybe a tenth gram or so AP putty would be about the right amount. I currently am putting the flash powder in paper footballs. That gives it a lot of confinement so not much powder is needed, but unfortunatly, this also makes it somewhat thick, and wide too. What would be optimal would be a thing about the size of a small straw tall, and half an inch long. If you all dont think that AP putty could explode in such small quantities, please tell. The confinement would be between the blood pack and the backing material. And no, I am not taking chances. I am doing this safely, testing before on a person, etc. I have put a few on people so far, and they were very safe. I am not going to go into all my details on safety, etc, you are just going to have to trust me I am being safe about it.
(One effect I am trying to acheive would be a gunshot wound to the side of the head, without any cuts, which would be hard because your blood and explosive would have to be concealed under hair or something, which would be easy to see. I would like to do this on a closeup, but I have a feeling I will never be doing this. So dont worry about me blowing off someones head, since I could not do it safely, I wont be doing it.)
------------------
Give me immortality or give me death!
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-13-2001 02:54 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The beauty of AP putty is that it doesn't require any confinement to produce a powerful explosion and will detonate in any quantity. You can form it to any shape you need and you could do without any packaging simply dip the hardened putty in wax to waterproof it (from the paint).
I think it's definately worth a look into if you want extra small blood charges.
endotherm
Frequent Poster
Posts: 164
From: dunno
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 04-13-2001 06:01 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i found that Good Flash Powder is probably twice as loud as ap , but ap has twice the power, or maybe i just have good flash and bad ap
simply RED
Frequent Poster
Posts: 240
From: HELL
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 04-14-2001 05:25 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's difficult to compare non detonatable(maximum "detonation" velocity of flash is 1km/s) mathereal and detonatabla, as AP.
Acetone peroxide produces much greater pressure!
------------------
...SOMEONE RESORRECTED...
SHOOT HIM TWICE!
YTS
Frequent Poster
Posts: 61
From:
Registered: MAR 2001
posted 04-15-2001 01:22 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FLASH is louder than ap but know where near as powerfull ithink its loudness is due to heat of explosion making the gases around it expand anyway its louder
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-17-2001 07:47 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I must say I disagree with what Anthony has written! Nor AP, nor NC, nor a mix of both (AP putty) can detonate without confinement in ANY quantity; that's wrong!
Confinement reduce the minimum quantity at which a detonation can occur; but the limit stil exist!Under that specific mass deflagration or burning happens!
Otherwise there would be no critical diameter, no critical mass,...what is never the case for all known explosives.
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-17-2001 07:55 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've done it again. Sorry Philou, what I should have said in "practically" any quantity. I'm pretty sure I've touched off peices smaller than a match head (probably smaller) and had a detonation occur. I don't think he'd be using a charge anywhere as small as the critical mass.
wantsomfet
Frequent Poster
Posts: 236
From: EU
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 04-17-2001 10:31 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with Anthony - if light a piece AP-putty smaller than a matchhead it gives of a sharp crack on detonation (OK, the sound is no evidence for a detonation). That's a really tiny amount, so the minimum quantity is about 0,1g......
------------------
for best catfood visit:
catfood.tsx.org
the_wingman
Frequent Poster
Posts: 49
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 04-17-2001 11:20 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AP CAN detonate without confinement.
I once lighted a grain of very dry AP and it detonated half a meter away from my face. My ears rang for three days although it wasn't even a gram of AP.
shady mutha
Frequent Poster
Posts: 149
From: australia
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-17-2001 05:36 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A.P will always detonate at the right temperature even in tiny amounts.If you put flame to a.p it goes up with a 'pooof'if you slowly heated the same amount it would go 'crack'eventually
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-18-2001 05:08 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Velocity of sound is not difficult to surpass since it is only 350m/s and thus a lot of pyrotechnic mixtures goes easily over this when between 2000 and 350 m/s we are usually speaking of deflagration...since it is supersonic, a shockwave goes through your ears making some desorder and injuries...ears are really sensitive...there is a famous karate move that hits the two ears of the opponent and that can knok him down by blowing the inner ear-you don't even make a supersonic move to get that effect...
So NO NO NO sound of crack and ears ringing is definitely no proof of a detonation!!!!!
You are right to say that AP must have one of the lowest critical mass of all explosive; but this can only be studied via the critical diameter and the VOD under confinement at a given density and a certain diameter. Keeping the density constant and ploting all VOD as a function of the diameter, you should see a disruption in the curve showing the critical diameter in cm!
From the relation Dc=2Rc
you can understand that the critical volume in ccm is Vc=Dc*Dc*Dc= 8Rc*Rc*Rc
The critical mass is thus (knowing the density d=a and the volumic mass =a g/ccm =a kg/l =a tons/cmeter)
Mc=a g/ccm * Vc
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
bryan_wilson65
New Member
Posts: 16
From: Ouagadougou, -, Niger
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 05-11-2001 09:33 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now *this* is an interesting topic. How to do simple tests on the AP, so that we could compare the quality. And thereby also the stability, to some extent.