Chems In Oz

[green beret]

I just thought I would compile a list of chems that I (dreamed) have found in Australia without too much trouble, I know there is an OTC survey topic, this one is just Australian.

In no particular order:

Hydrochloric acid- hardware
Nitric acid- chem supply
Sulfuric acid- chem supply
Ammonium nitrate- rural supply
Potassium nitrate- rural supply
Potassium permangenate- chemist
Hydrogen peroxide- chemist/hydroponics store/pool supply
Hexamine- army disposal
Sulfur- big W/farm supply
Ethylene glycol- auto stores/big W
Sodium bisulfate- big W sold as "dry acid"
Sodium hydroxide- supermarket
Acetone- hardware
Methyl ethyl ketone- Bunnings
Iron oxide- Bunnings
Aluminium powder- Australian metal powder supplies
Cyanuric Acid- Bunnings (in pool supply section)
Copper sulfate- Bunnings
Ammonium sulfate- Bunnings
Granular Chlorine- pool shop
Zinc Chloride- rural supply
Nitromethane- Toyworld, would you believe

Thats all I can think of right now, I may add to this later. Has anyone in OZ found potassium or sodium chlorate? Apart from those rediculously priced scientific chem suppliers. Same for pentaerythritol, I cant even find it at proper chem suppliers.

[irish]

You can get Potassium permangenate from farm supply places too as it's used in very small amounts in chook water as well as other water treatments.
Also from a local farm supply store I found
sulfur
potassium chloride
calcium nitrate
and the sulfate's of
copper
cobalt
magnesium
and potassium

I will go and have a look in the local hardware stores for anything green beret did not list and I will report back ;) .

[Bryan]

Citric acid - woolworths
3% H2O2 - woolworths
Glycerene- woolworths
~6%~ H2O2 - "Napi San In Wash", woolworths
96% ethanol - methlated spirits, woolworths
15% ammonia - plumbing supplies
NH4NO3 - "Nitrate chalk" (30%) - Bunnings, "Supa Fast Ice Pack" - sports store/chemist/Big W
Pottasium Chlorate - Home-brand match heads - woolworths, water treatment chemical (my local store closed down)
KNO3 - Stump remover, Bunnings
H2SO4 - Car batterys :rolleyes:

That's all I can think of for now
Also what is the NitroMethane sold as in toyworld?

Bryan

[blindreeper]

If you people read the the OTC survey post you would have seen my one for Oz, here it is anyway.

Prices are approx.

KMnO4 - Got it at some argricultural place in hervey bay -$17/500g

KNO3 - Got it at growforce australia - $60/50kg

Ammonium Nitrate - www.duralite.com.au - $33/kg

HCl - Bunnings - $8/2.5L

Acetone - Bunnings - $11/L

Methyl ethyl ketone - Bunnings - $5/250ml

Sulfer - Big W - $2.50/2.5kg

Sodium carbonate - Bunnings - $10/2.5kg

Formaldahyde 23% - Camperland - $11/L

Magnesium - Camperland - $16/ a block of it

Hexamine - Camperland - $5/ box of eight ( I think it was around 150g)

Pine charcoal - Camperland - $9/2.5kg

H2O2 50% (oxyplus) - J&K hydroponics - $12/500ml

Phosphoric acid - J&K Hydroponics - $13/250ml

Ethanol 97%> - J&K Hydroponics - $27/L

Citric acid - Action supermarkets - $1.23/75g

Aluminium powder 325 mesh - www.metalpowders.com.au - $15/kg

Zinc powder 4.5 micron - www.metalpowders.com.au - $10/kg


Green beret, Sorry to be a pain but "Chem supply" isn't exactly OTC. But on a better note what is the iron oxide sold as in bunnings, any price, brand? Get your 50% H2O2 as oxyplus in hydroponic stores, much cheaper and it's very pure. This is the lable if your interested.

http://www.geocities.com/blindreeper_chemistry/oxypluslable.html

Sorry for the crappy scan but you can get some idea of what it looks like.

Last thing, the NM in toyworld is only 10% but unless you can make my dreams come true and tell me they have it behind the counter in 100% strength...

[0EZ0]

It should not need to be said, but I'll re-hash for some of the newer members.

Chemicals can be found anywhere and everywhere, as long as you keep looking in the right places. Sure, some things may be harder to find than others, but essentially anything can be found provided you're willing to give a continuing effort to searching. There are lots of people out there who say they 'can't find' a certain item or chemical relating to pyro/explosives. Ususally the case is that they can't be bothered putting in the effort themselves.

You may notice most of the more senior members are not willing to publicise where they get their more rarer items. The reason is usually because that they have worked hard to find sources for those items, and they do not wish to have those sources abused by the feeble minded or raped to the point that some of the sources dry up.

Some of you may one day learn this, and might be more careful about openly revealing your sources. If you do want to reveal a source on here, don't blatantly tell everyone exactly where some item came from unless you are prepared to lose that source. That doesn't mean you can't drop hints or provide clues where to lookthough;). It is a nasty age in which terrorism has forever changed government and policing policy. Many chemical sources have been infringed upon thanks to our lovely government legislation. As is the case almost worldwide. (The forum island is starting to look good:D )

It really does not matter about most of the more easily found items that have many legitimate uses throughout the land. Just the ones that you don't come across everyday. Remember the authorities ARE watching this site. It doesn't take much for them to shut down a particular source or advise them that they should take higher security measures when transactions take place.

Regards

[static_firefly]

The iron oxide sold at bunnings is used as a conctreate dye. about $8 1kg

[GibboNet]

Bryan, can you describe the stump remover you saw at bunnings ? I looked everywhere, no trace of it. I didn't want to ask for a storeepersons help considering all the stuff I already had.

I am in the middle of a OTC list for AUS myself, so this list is great. If anyone wants to help, contact me here or by email, and I will be able to add things to the list. I am listsing things with: Brand, Name, Active (useful) ingredient, weight / volume, and price.

I have made a start on my site, www.gibbonet.tk, just check the explosive chemistry section, in the explosives section. the actual listing by chemical is not done, they're just links to blank pages at the moment. check the OTC list that is linked from there.

OTC list (http://members.dodo.net.au/~j_gibson/explosives/explosive_chemistry/OTC_list.htm)

Listing by Chemical (http://members.dodo.net.au/~j_gibson/explosives/explosive_chemistry/sources_of_chems.htm) (Not Finished - Hardly started !)

I still have to type up the lists from Bunnings, a few other hardware stores, chemists / pharmacy's, agricultural and hydroponics shops. I should have it done in a week or two, once I get time.

[blindreeper]

Ok thanks for the reply on the iron oxide. But is it red or black type? And is there any specific brand or what ile/section should I look in. Also is the NM in toyworld just the 10% I normally see or can you get the 100% stuff somewhere?

[static_firefly]

The Iron Oxide is sold in both red and black and i think even yellow. I found it at the back next to some diggers acid. Its a white bucket with Iron Oxide written on it.

Chlorates and Perchlorates are the things im looking for...

[blindreeper]

Down to business. What brand name is there that sell dilute sulfuric acid and in what store. I really don't want to have to use battery stuff all the time. Also has anyone found NM in QLD stores? And if any one has any PE they want to sell me...contact me!!!

[Bryan]

PE?

Anyway, my local hobby shop used to sell 99% NM.... But now the closed down.

The stump remover was just that, I think it was the same brand that does the elemental S stuff,
It is 85% KNO3

Blindreeper what part of QLD are you in?

Bryan

[blindreeper]

Pentaeryithritol (sp?) is what PE is.

Bryan I'm not to fond of releasing any exact details of my location on the forum. Email me.

[Bryan]

pentaerythritol, I have only managed to get it from LabTek, they are a bit expensive though....

Bryan

[blindreeper]

Bryan, can you please email me about LabTek as it's not good to give away such a good source of info as nbk once said "Kewls may be lurking..." ( I think it was nbk..)

[green beret]

We're getting some really good information here. As was said before, dont give excact info on where you get rare chems, unless its something generic like Big W (not that they really have rare chems).

Blindreeper- Yeah I know chem supply isnt really OTC but its just a store in my area and they sold the acid to, no questions asked so I put it anyway. I get my H202 as 58% its sold as "Ozone accelerator Pool and spa sanitiser". Also Iron Oxide is sold at bunnings as "Builders Oxide", in 1kg buckets. I have seen it in red, black, and yellow.

As for my NM I think they only sell it because they really specialise in RC cars, so its unlikely that alot of store would sell it. I saw the bottle in there and it said Nitromethane, so I asked the store guy if it was 100% and he said yes. But they havent always had it.

Bryan, I'm going to look in Bunnings to try and find that Nitrate chalk (AN) its just 30% isnt it. Also, when you said Potassium chlorate as a water purification chem, and youre local store closed down, do you mean that you used to be able to buy it? Or you used to steal it from your local water treatment plant? Could you please email about Labtech too.

Keep up the good work everyone. But dont blurt out where to get rare chems such as PE etc, as was said, there may be kewls lurking. Or narcs.

[blindreeper]

Labtek as far as I know has no catalogue on their site.

Bryan, Can you give us some idea on what you paid for the PE? How much? Questions?

[Shadow88]

Originally posted by Bryan
KNO3 - Stump remover, Bunnings


Bryan

Are you sure? I checked at the Bunnings in my town and they've never heard of it before.

[GibboNet]

Well, that's what I got too.

They had never seen it, nor heard of it. They asked if I wanted to order it in, but I didn't want to at the time, they wanted my name and address to contact me.

Still, it's avaliable elsewhere. Nice to see the Aussie's workiing together too.

[Shadow88]

Yes, kudos to my Aussie brethren for posting such great sources, especially green beret and blindreeper.

EDIT: (Sorry blindreeper)

[blindreeper]

Shadow WTF does flash powder hve to do with OTC chems in Oz? Thats what the water cooler is for to start new topics for new members such as yourslef.

[metal dragon]

Hello
I managed to get 100% NM from the drag races. It was used as a fuel additive. I live Queensland so it is possible.

[blindreeper]

If you are in the brisbane area and are in need of some nitromethane I can give you the address of a hobby shop that sells it 2.5L (100%) for $75
drop me an email - blindthug@hotmail.com
The stuff am getting from this place has a ting of yellow to it and it is labled as "nitromethane fuel additive" so I assume 100% or around that. Since they also sell the methanol and castor oil...:rolleyes:

[metal dragon]

$75!!!!!!!!!!
i get mine for $25 for 5L
you are getting ripped off mate

[Anath]

Glad to be on the Forum.

I have some over the counter, easily bought chemicals to add to the Australian OTC list, I'll add them here as I scan the labels.

I bought some (50kg for AUD$32) Incitec "NITRAM 50/50" from a Rural Supply place. The sales drone informed me it's a mixture of Ammonium Nitrate and Potassium Nitrate, and they aren't allowed to sell straight NH4NO3 anymore as "terrorists use it to make bombs"... I wouldn't class myself as a terrorist. sheesh.

I can still buy AN as cold packs from Big W, or by-the-kilo from a Hydroponics place, though they want AUD$5 per kilo.

I scanned the label in case anyone is interested. (46k) NITRAM 50/50 label (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-9/405221/nitram.jpg)

Also, a scan of the mixture itself. (12k) Mixed and seperated prills (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-9/405221/nitram2.jpg)

Both types of "Prill" are completely soluble in water. I assume the smaller, white ones are the AN going on previous experience. I suspect the pink ones are actually Potassium Chloride.

Is there an easy way to seperate the Ammonium Nitrate from the Potassium Chloride? Or should I sift through 50kg's of the stuff with a pair of tweezers and 2 buckets. I spent a while searching but couldn't find anything helpful, maybe I just need more experience with the search engine.

edit: The pink chunks are definitely Potassium Chloride (KCl)

[Anthony]

Due to the difference in prill size a large mesh sieve should seperate the two reasonably. You'll get a reasonable amount of waste, but it would be quick and your starting material isn't exactly pricey.

If it is KNO3, when I'd just use it as-is, since KNO3 and HN4NO3 are interchangeable in many mixes (although not yet proven with ANFO). It certainly shouldn't interfere with the AN.

[Anath]

I bought these from a "Garden Supply" place. I said I was using it for Hydroponics but I don't think the sales drone cared. They apparently buy the 50kg bags and decant them into smaller 1kg bags for Joe Average to spread on his garden, they had quite a lot of useful chems there and no awkward questions.

Sulfur, 1kg for AUD$5.50

Incitec Nitrate Chalk (NH4NO3 + Calcium Carbonate, dissolve AN in water to seperate) AUD$36 for 50kg, no HAZCHEM markings, should be easily bought.

Incitec "NITRAM" NH4NO3 (6k) NITRAM (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-9/405221/nh4no3.jpg)
This is the 'good stuff' with an Oxidising Agent symbol and 34-0-0 NPK designator, fine (1mm) white translucent prills, totally soluble in water. $AUD45.50 for 50kg

Pivot "Potassium Nitrate" KNO3 (7k) Potassium Nitrate (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-9/405221/kno3.jpg)
This also has an Oxidising Agent and HAZCHEM symbol on it, 13-0-38-0 NPKS designator. fine (1mm) white prills totally soluble in water. $AUD70 for 50kg

If anyone wants to use these images for the OTC list feel free.

[blindreeper]

http://www.geocities.com/blindreeper_chemistry/OTC.html

If you want the survey of bunnings and action gibbo look on page 2 of OTC survey

[Ahriman]

Incitec "NITRAM" NH4NO3 (6k) NITRAM
This is the 'good stuff' with an Oxidising Agent symbol and 34-0-0 NPK designator, fine (1mm) white translucent prills, totally soluble in water. $AUD45.50 for 50kg

I get a 50KG bag from the local ag supply store for $28, and they have 1 tonne bags for $482, although I'm in a rural area, so it may be more in the city *shrug*

[Stone]

I can't add to the list, sorry, as all the items i've found are already listed here...

But i'm very interested in a PE source, if anyone has some information please contact me at stone@mail2australia.com

Good lists, fellas :)

[static_firefly]

I recently found that KMnO4 can be bought at large pet stores and id say farming stores for $11 for 1kg under the name "Condies Crystals". Its used to take parasites off fish and out of the gills.

[Zeitgeist]

http://www.nra.gov.au can be useful

20% HNO3:

Acid-Flo Heavy Duty Morning Acid

206 g/L HNO3, 24g/L Sulfamic acid

Liquid acid detergent for cleaning dairy equipment

I'm sure this could be purified and distilled without too much trouble

[xyz]

static_firefly, what part of Australia are you from? If you don't want to reveal it here on the forum then email me. I have a source of KMnO4 that is exactly the same and I am wondering if we live near each other.

[blindreeper]

I have already posted this in the OTC survey thread but theres no harm posting it here because it directly relates to Australia. Link to the thread (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1877&perpage=50&pagenumber=3)

"Ok this is just a test. I have compiled a pdf with the help of the Forum members static_fly and byran (aka budget pyro). They contributed most of the pictures and I pulled the whole thing together.
It has the bunnings survey in a table and the action survey in a table. Then it has pics of a fair few chemicals and a very general idea on where to get them.
If you guys like it I will continute to get more chemicals and put more detail into the descriptions eg: chemical formulae, other names ect

www.xmail.net

Login: littlepiglittlepig
Password: letmecomein

DO NOT DELETE ANYTHING!

Click on the email entitiled Australian OTC Survey PDF

To download right click on the icon that looks like a floppy disk with a blue arrow on it.

Log out


I will add more chemicals such as napthalene, Na2CO3, NaOH, NM ect but I will only do this if you want me to because it will jsut waste my time if no one wants it."

[Lil_Guppy]

Let me be the first to say: Good job blindreeper and the others that contributed :)

So much for my OTC survey, its all in the PDF :p Oh well


It has been mentioned that potassium nitrate can be found as stump remover in Bunnings (I kinda dont want 50kilos just yet). When I was last in town, I had a look (it was a brief one as I had a lot to do) but could not find it. I was just wondering if anyone can tell me the brand and what section it is in. If you do not wish to reveal it on the forum, please email me. Thanks :)

[blindreeper]

Lil_Guppy or any Australian for that matter that has anything to contribute please email me - blindthug@hotmail.com with the subject line as "OTC"
I will mail you back an tell you if it will be used or not.

But mainly I am looking for pictures of chemicals (decent quality) that are not listed in the pdf. If you have a picture of a different brand of HCl to the one in the PDF please email it to me.

To save me putting credits in at the bottom of the PDF please write a signature in your pictures. Eg: putting your forum name in a bottom corner such as EP (http://krimzonpyro.com/ep/projectsdevicesdir/bottlerocketfun.html) does with his pictures.

[Lil_Guppy]

You pretty much covered my OTC list there, so I dont have anything to contribute just yet. If you need any help doing the PDF, I would like to help :)

[Zeitgeist]

Great work there guys.

I thought i saw somthing containing ethanolamine today in some sort of industrial cleaner, could this be of use for anything i wonder?

[Anath]

Any update on when the OzOTC PDF will be ready blindreeper?

Also, any more chemical pictures in partricular you need? Maybe if you post a list of all the things you don't have, that should be there, for others to submit... :)

[blindreeper]

I have pics of the following:

Acetone
Ammonium nitrate
Aluminium powder
Boric acid
Calcium chloride
Calcium sulfate
Citric acid
Copper Sulfate
Ethanol 95%
Formaldehyde
Hexamine
Hydrochloric acid
Hydrogen peroxide
Iron oxide red/black (Fe2O3/Fe3O4)
Magnesium nitrate
Methyl Ethyl Ketone
Napthalene
Oxalic acid
Phosphoric acid
Potassium nitrate
Potassium Permanganate
Sodium Dichloroisocyanurate
Sodium bicarbonate
Sodium Carbonate
Sulfur/Sulphur
Sulfuric acid
Zinc chloride

So they are done. I would like any others you find please. Particularily HNO3, I know the OTC source because budget pyro has gotten some but alas hhe took no pic :( So if anyone finds 70% HNO3 please take a picture of it and email it to me! Its found in pH adjusters in hydroponics stores.

I just need to borrow a camera some time so I can take pics of these:
Glucose/Dextrose
Glycerine
Naptha

I have them right now so like I said I need a camera. BTW if you email me pictures please have the subject line as OTC and send them to blindreeper@xmail.net this will be the account for my OTC pdf. Anything regarding the pdf email it to that address.

And about the update I have uploaded it to the littlepiglittlepig xmail account.
Here are the instructions

www.xmail.net

Login: littlepiglittlepig
Password: letmecomein

DO NOT DELETE ANYTHING!

Click on the email entitiled [No Subject]

To download right click on the icon that looks like a floppy disk with a blue arrow on it.

Log out

The new one is still not finished but it should tire you over for a bit ;)
Any questions, comments, bitches, suggestions or gripes?

[Lil_Guppy]

Good work blindreeper and everyone else who had an input into the PDF :) One quick question tho. With regards to your -375 aluminium powder (dont worry I wont give away this fine source :p), when I contacted them, they told me that they only had -200 mesh (which I bought anyway for some flares). I was just wondering what you asked for when you contacted them. Keep up the good work :)


I know that the brand names are shown in the pictures, but instead of having a heap of pictures of the same product with different packaging, just have 2 or 3 samples, and add a column in the tables with a heading like 'Common Brandnames' or something to that effect.

[blindreeper]

Hmm I may consider that but probably not. I will finish this one and release it but after that I will probably update it every year or somthing kinda like 2003 version, 2004 version ect but thats in my list of thigns to do.

[Hellfire]

this has most likely already been posted but...

************** just happens to be a marvellous site for 50kg bags of ammonium nitrate and potassium nitrate which are great for low to high order explosives. not to mention the other chems on there i havent ordered yet.

no id, cash on delivery, no questions asked. just the way i like it

++++++++++++++++
Link to source removed upon request by 0EZ0. See my next post for more details. You're free to post the link again if you really want to.

Rhadon

[blindreeper]

Pity they don't deliver to QLD :(
Also if anyonenhas these please take pics of them and send them to me!

Calcium hypochlorite
any other pool chemicals
Xylene
Linseed oil
Toluene
Ammonium persulfate (get it at dicksmiths at etchant)
Ferric chloride (get it at dicksmiths at etchant)

[0EZ0]

Mods, could you please delete the reference to the above source. As I know that they do not want any unwanted attention.

Please delete this post too if you go ahead.

(Edit: Thanks Rhadon)

[Rhadon]

0EZ0: I removed the source out of Hellfire's text, but I won't delete your post. Since it's not forbidden to post sources usually, I'd suggest that you drop him an email with the forum mailer so that he has your email address and you can negotiate this on your own if he wants to.

[Axt]

xylene (http://ww1.altlist.com/~52497/rogue.altlist.com/images/xylene.jpg) 100% various isomers.

Ferric Chloride (http://ww1.altlist.com/~52497/rogue.altlist.com/images/fecl3.jpg) 42% in water.

[blindreeper]

Thank you very much Axt. Is there some sort of signature you would like me to include in your pictures? Sorry forgot to ask can I use them in the pdf?

[Anath]

I just sent Blindreeper some pics of my HNO3, It's an easy OTC where I am. (~$AUD30/5litres)

also some pyro colour compounds & oxides..


The PDF is looking good!, I like the different brand labels, as it helps to know what to look for as you are cruising the aisles of the super-mega-hyper-mart :) .I think it will need to be updated more than once a year though. maybe HTML somewhere is more suitable.

also, someone was asking about thiourea a while ago? I saw it available as "Silver Dip" for cleaning silver in Coles recently, didn't buy it as I have no use for it. Maybe I should take my digital camera into Coles / Woolies / Bunnings / etc sometime, as I have seen a lot of relatively pure chems, (DCM paint stripper and Toluene for example) that I have no immediate use for (therefore I didn't waste money on them)...

[Lil_Guppy]

How about an online database with an ASP (or whatever tickles your fancy) frontend. I say ASP because its what I use. You could have a mini search engine to search for suppliers, approx. prices, etc etc. Just a suggestion. I do agree that there needs to be regular updates. Perhaps have a few Aussie members work on it as a group (a mini publishing company :p).

[Axt]

Blindreeper: Wouldnt have posted it if you were not to use it. You dont have to add anything.

[blindreeper]

I know that green beret but I was jsut asking permission anyway to save any future troubles. Like if you wanted to be a total prick after I have finished the pdf and say "get rid of my pictures you didn't ask permission!"
Not that I think you would do that but I am jsut covering my ass in the non-gay way ;)

[blindreeper]

Just a little update on the PDF.

Here are all the chems I have with pictures

1. Acetone
2. Ammonium nitrate
3. Aluminium powder
4. Barium Carbonate
5. Barium sulfate
6. Boric acid
7. Calcium chloride
8. Calcium sulfate
9. Citric acid
10. Copper Sulfate
11. Ethanol
12. Ferric chloride
13. Formaldehyde
14. Glucose/Dextrose
15. Glycerine
16. Hexamine
17. Hydrochloric acid
18. Hydrogen peroxide
19. Iron oxide red/black (Fe2O3/Fe3O4)
20. Magnesium nitrate
21. Methyl Ethyl Ketone
22. Naphtha
23. Napthalene
24. Nitric acid
25. Oxalic acid
26. Phosphoric acid
27. Potassium nitrate
28. Potassium Permanganate
29. Sodium bicarbonate
30. Sodium Bipohosphate
31. Sodium Dichloroisocyanurate
32. Sodium hypochlorite
33. Strontium Carbonate
34. Sulfur/Sulphur
35. Sulfuric acid
36. Urea
37. Xylene
38. Zinc chloride

I have yet to add pics sodium carbonate and nitromethane. Does anyone ahve any more chems to add to the list that should be on there? I may take a picture of vitiam C pills (big muther bottle!) and add ascorbic acid. Anyone got any comments, gripes, bitches?

[Lil_Guppy]

blindreeper

Apparently boric acid can be used as an eyewash (in solution of course). It is also used in ant-killing powders. Just thought I'd let you know so you can add it to ur OTC List for legit uses :)

[blindreeper]

I decided against that lil_guppy. Because I am putting the legit use in the description so there is no need for another subtitle. But I will add that in just for you :rolleyes:

[Lil_Guppy]

Awwww I feel so special :p You don't have to add it in you know lol

[the_chemist]

Blindreeper

I have a few things you can add to the list that I have been quite easily able to buy.
Some are more obvious than others and I am sure there are several more. :)

Calcium Hypochlorite (Pool Chlorine) - Pool shops/General stores
Cellulose - Woolwirths
Charcoal - Bunnings
Caustic Soda - Woolworths
Ethylene Glycol - Bunnings
Iodine - Chemist
Phenol - Bunnings?
Sodium perchlorate - water tablets
Sodium nitrate - fertilizer/garden centres
Tolulene - Bunnings

[0EZ0]

It's probably a little late, but I have a bitch/gripe I would like to voice:) .....

The process of finding your own sources is part of the screening and learning process for the tons of people who gain an interest in such activities every day. Spoon feeding is quite detrimental to the process. Give them a taste, if they like it and are willing to learn how and why it tastes so good then you can trust them with more sensitive information.

That aside, it is not impossible at all to find/procure absolutely any chemical you could want. Most things take little effort to get. Almost everything can be found with an Internet search, phone-book and phone. The rest can be made. The problems that the younger people have are usually lack of knowledge/motivation, income and or no transport to pick up what they are after. Thats when they bitch and moan saying they 'can't find' most chemicals.

So please, try and keep the information in the survey as vague as you can. Exact prices and whereabouts seem to me to be too much information. Putting in a price range or estimate instead would not only be more helpful, but it keeps things vague. As with the locations, I would not list trade names of the stores, but list what kind of places you can find them in. Also for the more location specific items should probably be left off of put in as a grouped item. Take Strontium Carbonate for example. Instead of saying to get it such and such place for this price, just group it with the other rarer carbonates as 'Carbonates'.

A type of format off the top of my head:

Hydrochloric acid is a strong inorganic/mineral acid. It is mainly manufactured dissolving Hydrogen Chloride gas in water. It ionizes to H3O+ and Cl- in solution. Typically the highest concentration available commercially is around 30%-40% by weight.

It can be found in Hardware stores, Supermarkets, Pool suppliers, Paint stores, Laboratory suppliers, Hydroponic suppliers, Metal Etchant suppliers, Industrial Cleaning suppliers and Agricultural Chemical warehouses/stores.

The most common concentration found is around 33% by weight. Expect to pay between 5 and 20 dollars per liter for the more concentrated variety. Price fluctuates depending on the quantity purchased, concentration and purity.

It has many uses. Those of which include altering pH of solutions for use in the lab or in hydroponics, horticulture, swimming pools and spas. It is also used for etching metal, cleaning masonry/brickwork/stone, dissolving mineral deposits, catalyzing organic reactions, making chlorides/hydrochlorides and can be oxidized to produce chlorine to kill off bacteria.

You get the general idea. But the above is just my opinion, don't take it as anything personal. I'm sure there are others who feel a little uneasy with a detailed OTC list.

[blindreeper]

Your example is more detailed than my current ones :p
Well then it kinda puts a damper on the venening now doesn't it :confused: I am really unsure about it now. Its a tough one. I will think about it because I have just wasted a hell of a lot of time if it don't end up releasing it :(

As for you list the_chemist

Calcium Hypochlorite (Pool Chlorine) - Pool shops/General stores - working on it
Cellulose - Woolwirths - will take picture this arvo
Charcoal - Bunnings - as if you would buy charcoal
Caustic Soda - Woolworths - getting there
Ethylene Glycol - Bunnings - don't know what its in, I do but can't be bothered
Iodine - Chemist - extraction of iodine is a pain in the ass so you can figure it out yourself
Phenol - Bunnings? - its accually phenylene or somthing
Sodium perchlorate - water tablets - what type of water tablets, those ones in camping stores for purifying contaminated water? They are not only fucking expensive there is jack all in them
Sodium nitrate - fertilizer/garden centres - this means i ahve to buy it to take a pic because the only place I know that sells it around here is not a walk in type store. unless you want to give me the picture
Tolulene - Bunnings - should be getting that soon, but the only stuff I have seen is glue rid which is only 60% but thats better than nothing.

EDIT: I have busted my ass to borrow cameras to get pics. Yesterday I had to ride on an old fucked up push bike 15km to get to my brothers mates house! Now I think about fuck not releasing it! That way if newbies ask where to get such and such we can tell them to search for that pdf. That way there will be less stupid questions. Well thats the way I see it. Or I could put it only on the FTP so that only long term members can access it.

[Lil_Guppy]

I was going to suggest that blindreeper (your edit that is). Only give it to people that actually deserve it rather than handing it out to anyone and everyone. It is a fair bit of work to do only to not release it in some way.

[blindreeper]

My eyes are going figgin square with all this picture resizing and stuff! Sigh, once I have got a pic of sodium carbonate and calcium hypochlorite I am spent for the next month (I will release it)

[Lil_Guppy]

If you need some help with it (formatting, pictures, layout etc) just gimme a yell :)


Added you to my MSN list blindreeper (hope I have the right email address :p)

[blindreeper]

I just need those 2 pictures. I really cant be botherd byeing them and don't want to go into the hardware store and try and take pics of them. Before anyone suggests it I am not going to buy the stuff and then take it back :)
Lil_guppy if you use msn add me please.

[Anath]

I think the pdf as it currently stands gives kewls and kiddies more than enough info to get into all the trouble they could want :) ,The pictures of the labels are good, as it helps to know what to look out for, but I agree with not spoonfeeding suppliers to people. the last thing a good supplier needs is kewls ringing them up!

It'd be great to have the resource to share suppliers for really rare chems in oz though between members that have 'proven' themselves. (think pentaerythritol, (per)chlorates, etc.). Sometimes you can only find these things through 'word of mouth'.

[blindreeper]

Well I think I will keep the Bunnings and Action supermarket Surveys in the because they aren't suppliers as such. Also I havn't listed any suppliers in there at all. Like the pic of Al powder, I blaked out the suppleir. So I think it just shows what to look out for more than anything. Since pictures speak a thousand words I have over 50,000 words :)

[0EZ0]

With all the work you put in I can see that you would want to release it. That was just a side comment for people considering a similiar thing. You have done a good job on the whole to keep things as more of a guide than a specific list.

Yes it would probably be a good idea to restrict access to it, well at least the final version. The idea being that you don't have idiots running around blowing off fingers or starting fires. Maybe you could put a skimped version (first draft?) available for regular download. But don't let me decide for you. Afer all, it is your work.

[blindreeper]

Well if you think about it, its not telling people how to make explosives so I can't see how they will blow their fingers off with plaster of paris :p But yes you are right about releasing a skimpy version. Perhaps that version will just be pictures and no comment on the chemicals? Deleting text is very easy :)

[Zeitgeist]

More Fantastic work BlindReeper

Um, I couldn't find the PDF on your site, where is it? Thankyou.

I know it doesn't have many uses, but a note on DCM (Methylene Chloride) Paint Strippers, bacause someone mentioned it back on the other page, and i have some,

It could be easily distilled because it boils at 40 C, but out of the tin it is thick horrible gluggy shit made to stick to sheer surfaces. Also, some brands contain Phenol and Ammonia

[green beret]

Brilliant work on this PDF!

Blindreeper, I have a bottle of Nitromethane but its got no label etc., I think it was just filled from a large drum or something, which is why it has no brand label etc.

Is there anything you need done, I would love to contribute, unfortunatley my camera is broken still, quite badly, I think I will need a new one. Email me anyway if you like.

For some reason certain pages on the net are running painfully slow for me (the forum included), hence my lack of posts on the forum these days. I hope to have it fixed soon though.

[blindreeper]

Umm green beret, I don't think I have given you the pdf so how can you say brilliant work? Anyway thats not the point :p Email me at blindreeper@xmail.net if you want a copy.

[Stone]

Do you have many "exotic" chemicals listed in it? Like erythritol or pentaerythritol?

Do you want anymore pics?

[blindreeper]

No I have not listed the more exoitc chemicals as such. I will list pentaerythritol when you find it OTC for me ;)
Do I need anymore pictures? Hmm not yet well send them anyway if you want. I should be making an update to it with over 60 chems next time :)

[xyz]

BTW blindreeper, the password was inventive :D but maybe a little insecure (won't mention why here as it would probably let people guess the pass, but you have probably figured out by now, if you haven't, then email or MSN me)

[blindreeper]

Meh who cares they don't know the account name so it doesn't matter:p

[Zeitgeist]

Thanks again.

Very impressive work, better than i predicted!

With the HNO3, was that just a single shop? I think it might have been a lucky fluke for you.

[I_am_the_Black_one]

From milking/rural supply stores....

Sanaklenz 20- 40l tubs
350g/l phosphoric acid
100g/l benzalkonium chloride
50g/l sulfuric acid

Rua-Rinsa 20 -40l tubs
Dunno what this stuff is but sounds impressive
100g/l nonyl phenol ethoxylate

Rkl400 20 - 40l tubs
400g/l sodium hydroxide

I am not into explosives so i have no clue if these are any help....

[blindreeper]

Zeitgeist, Please do not discuss the contents of the pdf here. As if I would tell you on the forum the type of place where I obtained nitric acid.

I_am_the_Black_one, why bother be here on the Forum if you have no interest in explosives? Sure there are weapons but not nearly as many...

[Anath]

blindreeper: the PDF in its current state has my supplier for the HNO3 written on the container. I'm not too worried about that, but if you are finding it hard to get, you might want to obscure it :)

Zeitgeist:
I have 3 different suppliers of HNO3, both 70%az and 90%+, all of them were easier than buying Potassium Nitrate, which itself was piss-easy. Look Harder.

[Zeitgeist]

No car and no job makes hunting down this stuff harder than it needs to be, also living in a rural area, whilst good for some things makes others hard to find :(

Please excuse my ignorance, what is it used for OTC? Especially @ 90%

That supplier is no use to me, wrong part of the country

I always thought this stuff to be nigh on impossible to get, seems i am wrong, not that that's a bad thing here

Hydroponics pH decreaser is usually H3PO4 and not Nitric, mainly because it forms a pH buffering equlibrium.

Do you guys think it is worth buying much decent lab glassware?

Thanks for the advice, again...

[xyz]

There are Ph reducers that are HNO3, and HNO3 can be found at chem suppliers.

And lab glassware is essential for accurately measuring liquids that behave nastily with plastic measuring containers.

[Zeitgeist]

cool someone is online..... dunno if you're an IRC fan but austNet #pyro if you are


Chem Supplier? Doesn't that defeat the purpose, and it isn't exactly OTC. They are uncommon, and ask too many questions, especially for a relatively young person

[Anath]

"Please excuse my ignorance, what is it used for OTC? Especially @ 90%"..

My standard excuse is etching sheet steel soldermask stencils for surface-mount PCB manufacture, which is good, because thats what I actually do use it for most of the time. Other excuses are etching metal plates for lithography (hey baby, wanna come up and see my etchings? - sorry, beatnik joke), pH reducer for Hydroponics (if not bought at a hydro shop), Cleaning noble metals. any of these should work with a bulk cleaning chem distributor.

"Do you guys think it is worth buying much decent lab glassware?"
A quickfit distillation setup is relatively cheap, and well worth it, plus a couple of spare flasks, and a good measuring cylinder. I use pyrex 500mL & 250mL measuring cups from the supermarket (@$5ea) for beakers. nearly everything else can be made or improvised with stainless cookware and jam-jars. a magnetic stirrer/hotplate is a good investment also.

[Zeitgeist]

http://www.nqcp.com.au

This might be of use, it's nowhere near me unfortunately

[Lil_Guppy]

If you are looking for KNO3, buy it from a nursery or farm supply. Its a lot cheaper and in some cases it can be of better quality.

[blindreeper]

Damn talk about spoon feeding for syndicate7
wanted some info on the brand, full product name, price and a pic of the bag
This is like my pdf people want to be spoon fed and when its presented in front of them they don't take it and still post about trying to find OTC chemicals :confused: Kewls.....:o

[Zeitgeist]

Even i'm not that bad........

Try hydroponics places, i haven't found KNO3 easily at garden suppliers, but Mg(NO3)2 can be had.

I found an interesting source of KOH - Graffiti remover at the hardware store

[Stone]

I would just like to know if anyone has found erythritol sold in Aus? No location is needed(happy to take one though :D ), I just want to know if it IS available to buy or if i've been wasting my time searching so many stores and getting strange looks because I want "erythritol" instead of their other sugar substitutes :(

[EDIT]
I already know where to get it if it's not available in Oz, so there is no need to mention an international source.

[Zeitgeist]

I asked the local hippy supply/health food shop today, no ball but they did have one of the stupider employees serving me.

And i found Xylitol, good for anything? Didn't bother to get a price.

I know a good source for Isopropyl alcohol, it seems to be pretty pure, large quantites, relatively cheap, no questions. Electronics Supplier, but not DSE and not Jaycar.

I went hunting HNO3 from commercial cleaning supplier, no good but i did find...

H2O2 by the 20L drums.. Didn't read the concentration, but judging from the warning labling it was at least 30%, labelled as Oxidising agent/Corrosive as most conc. stuff is.
It said Standard Grade, but i think that's more purity than concentration.

Reading your comments in the other OTC thread Blindreeper, maybe get an old battery, and flush it out with a hose, get all the loose Pb and shit out of it and then get a refill ?

Why must we pay $50 a litre for the most commonly produced industrial chemical there is?

Also, Manutec hydro nutrient (easy to find with garden products) is supposed to have Ca(NO3)2 as one part but it's properties seem a bit weird

[Blackhawk]

The problem with flushing a battery for something like Picric acid is that any Pb ions would perhaps form Pb Picrate, which is badly sensetive. However you could get battery electrolyte refils as they would not have the Pb contamination.

[Zeitgeist]

Battery Refills are hard to find, but i know someone who gets 5L battery acid for $40 from a battery wholesales place.

They normally tell you to bring in the battery and they will refill it

[blindreeper]

Also, Manutec hydro nutrient (easy to find with garden products) is supposed to have Ca(NO3)2 as one part but it's properties seem a bit weird


I have got some of this and I found it in Big W for $5. It came with a 200g calcium nitrate bag in it. They were snow white prills.

About the xylitol you can get it for $20 per 500g at http://www.sweetlife.com.au/ Static_fly has done some testing on making xylitol pentanitrate but he is still testing it, having some troubles I believe.

[Stone]

Just a warning about a H2O2 source... "PH UP" which is 480g/L APPEARS to have something in it that neutralises acid(only tested HCl). Oxyplus doesn't have this problem.

[xyz]

If you want H2SO4 then try cleaning suppliers and chem suppliers. Buying from the aforementioned places is not at all difficult provided you tell them what you will be using the acid for, like cleaning your brickwork and anodising aluminium machinery parts. Nobody here would ever do anything illegal with chemicals, so just tell them exactly what you want it for ;)

If you find a decent supplier then 98% fuming H2SO4 will cost about 0.50AUD (yes, 50 cents) per litre, plus your container deposit ($20-30, but you can get it refilled as many times as you like, or take the container back and reclaim your money). Hell of a lot less cost and effort than boiling down battery acid to clean your paving with.

As for H2O2, cleaning suppliers, interesting... Any idea of the cost for a 20L drum? Cheapest source I know of for the H2O2 I use (to prevent algae growth in my ornamental pond of course) is $65AUD for a 5L drum from various hydro shops.

If you want KNO3 and are being anal about getting it from an easy OTC source then buy Mg(NO3)2 or Ca(NO3)2 from garden suppliers, dissolve it in water, and add potassium carbonate. You'll get a precipitate of insoluble magnesium carbonate or calcium carbonate (depending which nitrate you have), which can then be filtered out to give you a KNO3 solution that can then be evaporated to get coarse KNO3 crystals. Problem is that it costs about 20 times as much for the same amount of KNO3, involves much more effort, and results in crappier purity than simply buying the stuff. Seriously, it's cheap as hell in 25Kg bulk bags from agricultural suppliers, so you can finally have that source of potassium and nitrogen that you've been looking for to fertilize your vegetable garden.

Hope you are somewhat better informed about these useful household chemicals and will use them responsibly, for what they are truly intended :)

[maximusg]

Does any one still have a copy of the OTC pdf? all the links are dead :(

[Alexires]

Had to take my motorbike to an auto electrician the other day. So, as the story goes, I was stuck in the industrial area (somewhere in South Australia) for a few hours. Looking around, I decided to visit a hardware store (Mitre 10) looking for some pipe. While I was there, I remembered the OTC and thought I might add my contribution to it. (All prices are in AUD, duh)

'Colossal' Paint Stripper - 1020g/L Dichloromethane. $18.25 for 1L.

'Diggers' Glue Rid - >60% Toluene. No idea what the other consituant(s) are. $17.95 for 1L.

Type Red PVC glue - 500g/L Acetone, 500g/L Methyl Ethyl Ketone. Missed the price, think it was about $5.95 for a litre. Not too sure that the dye is (the red one.....that makes it red) but heard somewhere it doesn't really effect anything, you just end up with red product. Awesome.

Ammonium Sulphate 5kg $9.95 (maybe for some NH4NO3 production)

'Diggers' Oxide Colouring - A few different colour, ranging from almost black to whitish to green. Chose the cheapest dark coloured one as the most likely for Fe2O3. From $29.50 for 3kg. Guessing the green one is Copper Oxide.

A 12000kg Hydraulic Press - Not a chemical, but probably useful for someone who can't make their own. Also comes in a 6000kg version. $156 for the 12000 and $100 I think for the 6000kg one.

'Diggers' Methyl Ethyl Ketone Peroxide - Pretty shocked to find this. A little bottle, hidden near the back. This may indicate that it is discontinued.
30%-60% MEKP (that's what it says on the label), 20mL for $3.95.

'Kookaburra' Ring Saw (aka Garrotte) - Steel, notched wire with rings at either end, $4.75. Thought you might be interested.

H2SO4 (Sulphuric Acid) from a place called Battery World (to refill your car/bike battery ofcourse *wink*). You can buy 30% H2SO4 from them if your really in a bind.

Also, while in the pestacide section, found a pesticide that is a "Cholinesterase inhibitor". If memory serves me correctly, the chemical weapon VX uses almost the same path, being an Acetyl Cholinesterase inhibitor. Just food for thought. If anyone is interested, I can go back and get the name and the active ingredients as well.

Unfortuantely, it seems I can't post an attachment of the OTC, but if you PM me with an email address, I'll send you a copy when I get on next.

Anything with 'blah' around it deonates a brand name. Obviously, your not going to be able to get the "normal" paint stripper and then, for really tough paint, the "colossal" paint stripper. And no, "Diggers" glue rid was not used by the ANZACs to be rid of glue (probably didn't even have glue that it would have worked on back then).

Sorry, feeling a tad cynical.

[Omnius02]

'Diggers' Glue Rid - >60% Toluene. No idea what the other consituant(s) are. $17.95 for 1L.

I was able to find a lot of MSDS's at the digger’s site, you could also probably order a lot of chems from them too
http://www.diggersaust.com.au/

The toluene that you were talking about contains toluene 60% methylated spirits 10% (95% ethanol) and a gelling agent. Seems like it would be easy to extract the toluene but why bother when they sell 95% toluene.

[Alexires]

Very pointless post, requiring an edit to obtain 20 characters

Could you delete this post please NBK or any other mod?

[Red Beret]

xyz, could you PM me, regarding the 50 cent per litre acid? I have some information to trade with you, as you would already know, whatever you tell me goes nowhere.

[bentle]

Found a place to order potassium perchlorate from, not really OTC, but for $175 for 250g, I may need to keep looking!!

[tranquillity]

$175 for 250g is possibly the most expensive source of perchlorate I have ever heard of! You could import a platinum anode and titanium cathode form America for around $100 and produce 100s of kg of perchlorate from KCl.

A source for KCl is *removed* they also carry other chems such as elemental sulphur.

Moderator Note: We do not like sources posted on The Forum. General sources are fine, such as "Grab some toluene in the paint remover section of your hardware store" but if you want to give out actual sources, please state what you can get, and ask members to PM you for the source. This discourages idiots and kewls from ruining sources

[ChippedHammer]

If you want KClO4 make friends with someone in the US and get them to ship you some, don't declare it as anything stupid and it will make it through fine. I've still got a few kilos left over, saving it for a 'rainy day'.

[bentle]

I went into a rural supply store and had a bit of a look around, and after getting some weird looks asked if they sold 'condy crystals'.... I didn't really have to give an excuse, simply said "Yeah, I know you can get it at the chemists, but its just really expensive..." to which she replied, "Yeah, you just gotta know how to buy things sometimes" then proceeded to tell me they only had it in 1kg bags.... for only $17... not wanting to show my keenness, I paused for a moment, then answered as casually as I could "hmm yeah, I suppose that'll have to do..." I love country folk, so naive.

http://www.commerceqld.com.au/www/index.cfm?pageid=1091 Here's something for those of you that live in QLD.