The Ultimate Sniper Rifle

[ancalagon]

As you all no doubt know, silent firearm technology has been evolving for a very long time, and has taken various shapes in different countries and eras. The russians came out with an assault rifle which was supposedly able to pierce body armor from a fair distance, yet fired a subsonic bullet. The MP5SD submachine gun was designed specifically to have one of the best sound suppressors around. Other guns have been made which use a more silent propulsion than cumbustion powder. Yet each of these systems has its problems, either at the firing end, the travelling end, the contact end, or a combination.

What if, then, one were to create a rifle that fired a anti-material size (15 to 20 mm) bullet with an explosive tip at subsonic speeds using an electrical (or another and better form of a) silent propulsion system. After a desired distance, however, the bullet would turn into a rocket by a time delay ignition and significantly increase the speed and sound of the bullet, yet because the bullet would be by then be far from the shooter, the sound would make little difference. In fact, one might deliberately increase the sound of the projectile in a certain fashion as to make guesses on point of origin more difficult. The bullet/rocket would also have a homing device, so that with a laser the gunner could "paint" the target (using an exceptional scope) making the gun very accurate, and possibly firing the bullet on a curved track to further prohibit retaliation.

This design would be unwieldy for many purposes. It would be too bulky and possibly too powerful to fire except from the ground, it would be incredibly efficient at short range, and the cartridges would be quite expensive and large, making both production and magazine size quite limited. However, for long range "one shot, one kill" firing this design would be (I believe) ideal. Any thoughts/comments/questions?

[Tuatara]

I can't see the point. I've been next to a sniper rifle being blank fired. The noise was so colossal there was no way to tell where it came from. The echoes from the surrounding hills went on for ages. For a covert sniper I'd have thought supressing muzzle flash and smoke would be more important.

Also 'long-range', 'sub-sonic', and 'decent accuracy' are somewhat conflicting requirements.

[subsonic]

Would be a nice toy, such a Mini Stinger Thingy. But it would be very hard to manufacture for a backyard/garage constructor - too hard for me. All I have are explosive arrows for my pistol crossbow :D

[cutefix]

Anacalgon what you just written , borders in fantasy.
You want to apply missile technology to an ordinary ball ammo or if its modified version with explosive tip plus make it smart. Hmnn sounds like miniature version of the TOW missile applying ideas of nanotechnology.
In terms of practicality the days of smart small arms ammunition is still in the planning stage .Indeed I read it somewhere in the net a short time ago about the planning and developments in Oakridge laboratory in this line of work.
Now for anti material ammunition that can penetrate sheet metal the 50 caliber bullet fired from the Barrett or Mcmillan sniper rifle is already impressive.
The sniper mentality is focused on the best effectivity coupled simplicity.
And the sniper is already happy with the precision made match grade ammunition.
It is not an easy job being a top gun in bush and introduce such complicated ammunition that is not robust in the field condition.It will complicate the logistics of ammunition supply .
Just remember previously the team of spotter and the sniper usually share the sane caliber of ammunition for the different rifle they carry in combat;although the sniper carries the match ammo and the spotter the normal ball ammunition. Now in cases the sniper runs out of his precious ammunition he can relly on his partners stock for his rifle to be still useful.

If you want to make a subsonic ammo for such an anti material sniper rifle which due to the nature of the bullet speed will be short range;the ordinary grenade launcher can do the same job with devastating effect.Why complicate it?

[nbk2000]

The US military is already working on something very much like this. Large caliber, rocket boosted, laser guided...sure you didn't see the same show I did and just thought of posting this as something "you" thought up?

At least it isn't as lame as the "Lukes lay on lightsabers" thread some newbie started. :rolleyes:

Seriously, things like railguns, ice bullets, jet-powered missles, laser guided sniper bullets, and other things of the ilk belong in the head of the dreamer that they came from, and not on The Forum.

Lots of people...exclusively nOObies, as far as I've seen...have posted crap about how they "plan" to build these sorts of things.

So far, not ONE person has ever posted any PROOF that they've constructed any of these things. And all it does is distract from real experimenters, and take up megabytes and bandwidth.

If someone...anyone...was to ever post a thread about one of these subjects, and had photographic or, even better, video proof of having constructed one of these devices to an operational level, then I'd be HIGHLY impressed.

Until then, crap like this belongs in the recycle bin. :( Along with the morons who post it! :mad:

[Boob Raider]

These kind of novel ammos come up in movies and tv shows all the time. Ancalagon ..... what you are talking about was featured in an early 80's "techy" movie. There was some other show in which one has to put in a DNA sample of the target sucker and fire in any direction and the bullet homes on to the sucker's DNA. This technology is experimental for a couple of decades atleast and then another couple before you can get your hands on it, just like the good ol Nitrogen Buckyball.

[Arthis]

I can see a few problems with this system.

The noise it will make will be heard even at the place you fire, and people are anyway likely to pay attention to you.

The other problems come with physics. How will you make your 'rocket' to fire straight and not at a random direction ? Another point is you need to put way more powder, as action/reaction principle will make the body take some of the energy: in a standard rifle, little energy is loss as you don't move a lot when firing. You thus need a heavy body, for the round to be the fastest possible, then you need really big initial ammunitions, with a lot of powder. Another point is that the body may explode: there's no cannon tube to hold it.

The solution would then be a rocket fired, with a 'gun' loaded in it... Even if the system is small, it's hard work for a sniper.

[Jhonbus]

Having a rocket fire after a time delay will mean that anyone watching can see the rocket ignite. So you draw a line between where the bullet hits and where the rocket ignited, extrapolate the line a distance that corresponds to the time delay before ignition, and that's the location of the sniper...

[ancalagon]

Sorry I wasn't able to reply right away, I was without an internet connection for a while.

"The US military is already working on something very much like this. Large caliber, rocket boosted, laser guided...sure you didn't see the same show I did and just thought of posting this as something "you" thought up?"

Yes.

"Lukes lay on lightsabers" thread some newbie started"

Touche.

"Lots of people...exclusively nOObies, as far as I've seen...have posted crap about how they "plan" to build these sorts of things."

I have no intention whatsoever of building this gun, it being illegal for me to where I live at the moment. I would, however, enjoy writing detailed plans, which I what I tend to do with any illegal project I dream up that I think might have some possible use.

"For a covert sniper I'd have thought supressing muzzle flash and smoke would be more important."

Actually, I have a bit of experience with military sniping, and not only is the sound and smoke a problem, even the gun shape is easily recognized even at great distance, and must be broken down.

"You want to apply missile technology to an ordinary ball ammo or if its modified version with explosive tip plus make it smart."

The point here is NOT to use ordinary ammo, or even modified ammo, but cartridges built from the ground up. The homing device would be as simple as possible, because the gun would be too impractical for shooting fast moving targets.

"Now for anti material ammunition that can penetrate sheet metal the 50 caliber bullet fired from the Barrett or Mcmillan sniper rifle is already impressive."

I've used the .50 Barret Sniper rifle, and I do like it. It is not the best there is, but it is certainly one of the most powerful. However, anti-material rifles can shoot bullets which are able to penetrate 40mm of rolled homogenous steel armour at a 1000 meters, and do fair damage to what is behind.

"If you want to make a subsonic ammo for such an anti material sniper rifle which due to the nature of the bullet speed will be short range; the ordinary grenade launcher can do the same job with devastating effect.Why complicate it?"

I don't know if you read my post wrong, if I'm not seeing your point, or if I wasn't clear. The gun would fire subsonic bullets that after a certain would fly off of their own fuel (essentially, a rocket) enabling the subsonic projectile to reach great ranges. Also, a grenade launcher would do more damage than I want. The explosive tip would be small, just to help the projectile to penetrate armour or ensure a kill, not to blow-up a vehicle or something similar.

"And all it does is distract from real experimenters, and take up megabytes and bandwidth."

I'm sorry, I must have mistook the purpose of this particular section of the forum. It says, "This section is for discussion about designing, building, and using improvised weaponry," but I did not know a post had to include all three. I was just putting out a basic design for possible improvements or, more likely and in apparent actuality, a bunch of people to tell me I'm a moron who belongs in the recycle bin.

"The noise it will make will be heard even at the place you fire"

The point is I will not use an explosive to fire the projectile, using instead some other system (possibly an electronic one, as those are in use at present in some firearms).


"How will you make your 'rocket' to fire straight and not at a random direction?"

By placing a homing device on the end of the projectile and using the gun to lase the target.

"Having a rocket fire after a time delay will mean that anyone watching can see the rocket ignite. So you draw a line between where the bullet hits and where the rocket ignited, extrapolate the line a distance that corresponds to the time delay before ignition, and that's the location of the sniper..."

That would be true if one were firing at a target from an open field in a systems test. However, in the field certain things like the speed of the actions (not the gun actions), the angle of sight of the spotters, the possible arc used by the rocket, simple decoys deployed in synch with and by the rocket ignition, the time necessary to figure out trajectory, etc.

Guess it was a bad idea. At least this little experiment will keep me from posting for a while.

-Ancalagon

[nbk2000]

Actually, I have a bit of experience with military sniping...


Of courrrrsssee...well, now that you've enlightened us ignorant savages, please tell us of your background (or staff only if you're concerned about your privacy) so that we may verify this claim.

For you see, we do not take kindly to posers here. You may be the next best sniper in the world (behind carlos hathcock), but claiming that isn't going to get you anywhere with us unless you can prove it to staffs satisfaction.

Until then...annoying poser.


I'm sorry, I must have mistook the purpose of this particular section of the forum. It says, "This section is for discussion about designing, building, and using improvised weaponry," but I did not know a post had to include all three. I was just putting out a basic design for possible improvements or, more likely and in apparent actuality, a bunch of people to tell me I'm a moron who belongs in the recycle bin.


There's nothing to be confused about here, since it says "designing, building, AND using". If it wasnt' all three, then there'd be an "OR" instead of an "AND".

There's not much point in doing the first two if you'll never do the third. Also, most everything in this section is capable of being built by a dedicated home experimeter, if he's willing to put in the time/money, such as the GPS guided pulse-jet missle.

Laser guided micro-missles are at the very edge of possibility for nations with HUGE budgets and advanced weapons labs. To even suggest you have such capabilities is ludricious and an insult to the rest of us.


Guess it was a bad idea.


Yes, it was.


At least this little experiment will keep me from posting for a while.


An excellent suggestion. I'd make it permanent if I was feeling pissy right now, but my sturmhuhn are doing well in the conquest of New Zealand, so I'm feeling generous and will allow you to stay. :D

In the future, if you've anything of this ilk to post, do so in the water cooler section. A person can post just about anything there, and it will not be held against you, like it will be if you post it in the regular sections and it proves to be highly lame (like the light saber and this one).

[Arthis]

I think the idea is not totally lame, but such a device would finally be something like a rocket launcher, a rocket that fire a bullet. What does the rocket then ?
There's no point using that system as a sniper. But I can see a few uses. If the bullet is powerful enough to get through a steel protection, the rocket could then use the hole made by the bullet to put some gases in the ennemy tank, for example, thus gasing pilots, or use a SC...

But then, it would be too big compared to a sniper + a separate rocket launcher. I really think it's useless.

[Anthony]

"The point is I will not use an explosive to fire the projectile, using instead some other system (possibly an electronic one, as those are in use at present in some firearms)."

What you describe would be some kind of railgun. No practical rail gun exists as a personal firearm. Sure you're not confusing electric ignition instead of primers in ammo?


""How will you make your 'rocket' to fire straight and not at a random direction?"

By placing a homing device on the end of the projectile and using the gun to lase the target."


A homing device isn't magic, it'll need fins or adjustable thrusters or similar to steer the projectile. Although even they would be useless if the projectile can't fly straight in normal conditions anyway.


It seems that the imagined purpose of this weapon would be to kill an individual, is ammo at $100 000 a shot really worth that?

[cutefix]

I would be simpler if and effective as well if he had thought about a discarding sabot ammunition than the laser guided miniaturized missiles that is fired from a rifle.
If his purpose is just to penetrate the armor to create a pinhole so that the soldier inside can peep out and see who is the bastard shooting his truck.:D

[ancalagon]

"Actually, I have a bit of experience with military sniping...

Of courrrrsssee...well, now that you've enlightened us ignorant savages, please tell us of your background (or staff only if you're concerned about your privacy) so that we may verify this claim.

For you see, we do not take kindly to posers here. You may be the next best sniper in the world (behind carlos hathcock), but claiming that isn't going to get you anywhere with us unless you can prove it to staffs satisfaction.

Until then...annoying poser."

I wasn't trying to say that you or any one else was an ignorant savages (apologizes for all who took it that way), I was simply trying to say that I wasn't a totally ignorant savage. A for my experience...

My main trade is combat and martial arts. My personal experience with the armed forces is limited to the connections I have inside (no, not top secret angents, I ain't that good). I have never been paid for any service rendered to the military, nor have I ever been an official consultant. What I have done is simply to work with former or current military personel to help them out with any particular thing they may have been working on at the time. To be a little more specific, I worked with Jerry Peterson's instructors in building his post SCARS system, and as many of his students are or were SEALS, I worked on a game they were designing to teach or practice silent killing techniques (garrot, knife anatomy, sniping, advanced chokes, breaks, etc). The game was not designed for use by the military, but the two guys I was helping were thinking of possible mercenary work. I attended a seminar held in Israel by Mr. Levine on his teacher's Krav Maga system, and worked in the U.S. with one of his students on techniques relating to explosives. I worked with a few members of law enforcement, most notably Jim Wagner (who I connected with through a reference letter from a friend I have in Los Angelos. That was mainly on what styles or combination of styles would be best for SWAT versus state police versus local law enforcement. However, I did go on a several day hunting trip later with some people I met in California, and I got to use several popular sniper rifles, including the barrett m82a1, US m40, H&K's PSG-1, and a few others. I volunteered in one town I lived in at the local police station to teach self-defense and self-offense. I also was an organizer of a group some years ago named COMBAT. It was mostly traditional style weaponry combat, full contact nhb sparring, and training in particular styles. However, due to the high percentage of ex- or current military folks, I got to know many and so have quite a few friends from there, and I had the chance not only to test and practice with several handguns and rifles, but also with assault rifles. I also have a friend (Fran Bishop) who still works with the rangers, and I have had some neat times with him. I also did some work with an ex-marine who I helped as a patient in alternative medicine physical therapy (qi qong, acupressure, shiatsu, yoga, tai chi, etc) after he left Emerson Hopital psych ward in Concord, and he was a big gun collector. I'll stop here, unless someone wants more. I don't want to bore you all too muh.

"To even suggest you have such capabilities is ludricious and an insult to the rest of us."

Once again, when posting this thread I had no intention of actually building the gun, and did not mean to imply that I could or did or would. I would simply like to draw up plans and theories, bettered by those in the forum.

"It seems that the imagined purpose of this weapon would be to kill an individual, is ammo at $100 000 a shot really worth that?"

This is true, but some assasinations are worth several million.

"If his purpose is just to penetrate the armor to create a pinhole so that the soldier inside can peep out and see who is the bastard shooting his truck."

A 20mm penetration round with an explosive tip will make a little more than a pinhole.

-Ancalagon

[zaibatsu]

I don't understand the intended purpose of this weapon - long range assassination? Or anti-material? Unless it's a hostage situation you don't need to worry about overkill I'd have thought. If there is no need to worry about overkill, just make a salvo of 'dumb' rockets with large warheads and make sure of the kill. Also, I don't understand under what conditions this would be used under - where couldn't you get close enough to a target to use something like .308/.338/.300 on them. Plus size issues - why do you think missiles are so expensive and yet carry little explosive? Because of all the complex guidance equipment I'd guess.

[ancalagon]

"I don't understand the intended purpose of this weapon - long range assassination? Or anti-material?"

I was thinking about possibly using it for important field assasinations whre the target might be protected and overkill (as from a high explosive rocket) would be politically unwise. Blowing up a military depot or base is an act of war, but taking out one person is another matter. I guess you coud say it would be both anti-materiel and for long range assasinations, because one might find the need for great penetration in order to take out the target.

"Plus size issues - why do you think missiles are so expensive and yet carry little explosive? Because of all the complex guidance equipment I'd guess."

I think you're right, but most guided missiles are much more complex than necessary for this particular gun. The sniper would fire in the general direction of the target, continue to lase the target, and the then missile would not really have to turn much at all to hit the target.

[cutefix]

I still think this is an imaginative way for a sniper aspirant ,frustrated by being always unable to hit the target at 800-1000 yards. He will dream how I wish I could have a gun and a corresponding ammo that behaves like a smart bomb and have it homing on a laser designated target.
But still why not improve your markmanship by exerting more labor in shooting practice than hallucinating on yet impractical things. True sniping entails lot of markmanship practice that you had to maintain regularly as well as lot of patience and discipline..
If a would be sniper would rely on gadgetry to hit the target you are not a first class sniper any more but a wimp who is deviating from the standard shooting practice. You are trying to replace the battle hardened tradition of authentic sniping techniques with unconventional so called smart guns.(if it already exist).
You imply that you does not care if you spend millions of dollars just to assassinate the target. Do you think your superiors will agree to that in the field.? A few pieces of match grade ammo coupled with exemplary shooting skills is enough to destroy or kill a would be quarry in a very cost effective way. Your field commander is not running a James Bond show in combat but just want things done effectively and simply with the least casualties on his men.
I do not think that a militant government is sensible enough to encourage his military planners and its implementers to execute a simple target at a prohibitive costs that is equivalent to a round of a Javelin missile that can be done easily with an ordinary bullet.
A well placed shot at long range that is fatal, is more than enough.” One shot, one kill” is the preferred option.
If you are using an explosive laden ammunition that leaves a wake on its way(because as you suggest should be rocket assisted) it is not stealthy anymore as you are compromising the snipers position. Why not use a Bradley instead and had its 25 mm chain gun do the job.It does not matter if you hit the target haphazardly as the explosion (of the HE) will create extensive damage( which is just as fatal)but can you credit that to your markmanship skill?
If you still go for precision shooting
,why not use the 50 caliber sniping rifle and practice on it? first . It has its own special type of explosive laden bullet .Or you can employ and armor piercing variation that has possibly tungsyten core in it
However you desire extensive penetration from slow moving bullet. Then you are thinking of applying the HEAT principle to penetrate and destroy the quarry. But remember the shaped charge penetration is proportional to the ratio of the diameter of its warhead. How can you apply that to the puny size of a small arms ammunition? You will not get the desired penetrative power of Munroe effect from that sort of bullet size. A discarding sabot ammunition looks more realistic then but it is best if fired with sufficient powder charge to eject it at supersonic speed.
Another things is that your supposed bullet is laser seeking; will that guidance system not affect the aerodynamics of the bullet? You cannot compare performance of the laser guided smart gravity bomb to the trajectory of the bullet ejected from the gun barrel.
Your idea reminds me of an Arab sniping trainee who was asking his commander why not punch a hole in the target with and HE round from a recoilless rifle than me labor and crawl in 48 deg C temperature in the field to get a clear shot on the target with my sniping rifle.
Anyway Such idea was even applied in the Vietnam war to destroy an enemy sniper position.
You worry about overkill but in real life desrtroying a target to the point that what remains are just pieces of its body parts is not bad as long as nobody gets hurt from among your ranks. Collateral damage is always a possibility if you use weapons that obliterates it anyway.And that is considered normal.

[zaibatsu]

From what little I understand of lazer-guided bombs, they are also dropped/fired in the general direction of the target. So are air to ground missiles. Also, I don't understand the compatibility of your statements - you have the idea of a highly unique guided munition, but believe it would be used in a role where deniability may be an issue? They would be able to link the round to the country which employs it. An political assassination often causes problems, think WW1.

EDIT: Just realised, this a weapon looking for a need, rather than a weapon designed to fill a need. The second option is often much more sensible. Think market-orientated, rather than product-orientated ;)

[ancalagon]

I'm going back to the drawing board to fix up a schematic of the actual projectile and possibly the rifle. I'll find somewhere to post it and put a link here. It may answer some questions and make things easier. WWI was over military build up, alliances, and nationalism. The assasination was just an excuse. However, I'm talking about "conflicts" in third world countries and the assasination of guerilla leaders or cartel heads and that sort of thing. I believe the munroe effect could work with the size of the projectile I'm using, and all attempt to show that in the schematics.

-Ancalagon

[cutefix]

Hmnn I remember the same plot of the Tom Clancy novel titled “Clear and Present Danger” where the US government authorized the use of a fancy cardboard laser guided bomb filled with Cctol. Which unfortunately was immediately linked to the USA because who on earth would use offensively such a special explosive for obliterating the target in another country.
From that reasoning what ever any attempt to remove somebody by exotic means will usually leave tell tale evidence as who was the perpetrator of the malicious effort.
In that story the mansion of the cartel head was demolished as well as creating collateral casualties but leaving the irate leader alive.
If that is what you are thinking in applying your exotic weapon;by assassinating notorious underworld leaders and including even rogue leaders from anti America countries; to me; such a weapon your think is unwieldy. But as weapon development is continuous and needs fresh ideas from elswhere, who knows what comes next?
If lately a laser device can shoot down an artillery projectile midair disabling it harmlessly(which is unbelievable previously) why not give you chance to prove the worth of your idea, and see evidence of your schematics.
Anyway it would be interesting to see the graphic details of your novel weaponry and how does it relate to pragmatic situation with a sinister purpose in mind.
I also like to see your shaped charged design and see how much of rolled homogenous armor it can penetrate with such a miniaturized warhead(or bullet head?).

[ancalagon]

Unfortunately, my computer is in the shop right now, which meant using someone elses computer. This is unfortunate because the only painting program available was Paint, which is very basic. Oh well. The drawing, therefore, is not drawn to scale, nor does it look very good at all, but I didn't want to wait a week or more to post the image. I intend to redo the pic as soon as I get my computer back, but in the meantime bear with me and go with what I have. The pic is at http://www.freewebs.com/oloringreymantle/cartridge.jpg
Basically, the missile is started like a bullet, using some silent propellent other than the projectile itself. After a specified time/distance the rocket system starts, the main engines providing great velocity. The secondary engines are controlled by the guidence system, and perform as thrusters to zero in roughly on the target (which should be near where the projectile is headed anyway). The outer casing is meant to shatter on impact, spreading shrapnel. If the projectile hits heavy armour, the casing shrapnel is pretty useless, but it will rip right through lighter protection, causing definite damage to near point of impact. The head detonates on impact, detonating the smallish amount of HE, which hopefully (using that space that the munroe effect requires) will enable the penetration round to go through the armor and into the target. The lower part of the penetration round is meant to shatter while going through any armour, creating penetrative shrapnel. Unfortunately, the explosion at the front may be enough to not only significantly decrease the velocity of the penetrative round, but also to send it in the opposite direction. Therefore, not only does the back of the penetration round attach to the four thrusters which control direction, but also a constant central one. Also, the back HE detonates on impact in an attempt to counter the frontal explosion. Remember, this is a VERY rough sketch (at the moment) so please... be gentle.
I'm not sure at the moment how to program the guidance systems. I want a very simple system because the projectile should not have to move around too much. I was thinking that the lasing system on the rifle would broadcast various signals in an outward direction, constantly updating the guidence system on where the target is. This is also vague, allowing for large improvement on the part of myself and others.

-Ancalagon

[nbk2000]

Now I remember where I saw this idea from...the "Friday the Thirtenth" TV series.

It was the episode where ryan goes back home to his fathers wedding. Dad used a cursed pipe to kill some dude and steal his plans for a rifle that used laser guided bullets.

[ossassin]

I'm sorry to say that high-powered rifles, which make up 99.99% of sniper rifle cartridges, can not be silenced. The bullets break the sound barrier, creating a sonic boom. The only way to get rid of this is to use subsonic ammunition, which defeats the purpose of using a high-powered rifle in the first place. (It is not very powerful.)

[Boob Raider]

"The sniper would fire in the general direction of the target, continue to lase the target "
Does the sniper have to keep the target in sight for the entire duration of the flight of the bullet ??? Why can't he take multiple shots from an ordinary sniper rifle instead if he really has to be sure ? Thermal imaging/ heat pattern seeking round would be way better for anti-personal applications. Or even a pheromone detector based round. But in anycase its just not feasible untill Judge Dredd era comes along.

[john_smith]

Why build such a specialized micromissile instead of "accurizing" a normal laser-guided one ? Getting hit with a 3-4", mach 1+ projectile would fuck you up big time, whether it has an explosive warhead or not. And since the launch just needs to be in the general direction of the target, it could be done remotely from a safe distance from the "sniper".

[ancalagon]

"Now I remember where I saw this idea from...the "Friday the Thirtenth" TV series."

I thought the Friday series were the Jason movies. I saw one of them, Jason X. It was almost funny, but just to poor...

"I'm sorry to say that high-powered rifles, which make up 99.99% of sniper rifle cartridges, can not be silenced. The bullets break the sound barrier, creating a sonic boom. The only way to get rid of this is to use subsonic ammunition, which defeats the purpose of using a high-powered rifle in the first place. (It is not very powerful.)"

I addressed this earlier in the thread. First of all, the missile is launched as a subsonic bullet, and the missile kicks in later to hide point of origin and to increase maximum effective range. Secondly, there are assault weapons built to fire subsonic ammunition while still laying claim to being highly lethal. Finally, this rifle is not a high-powered rifle. The projectile itself is high powered.


I thought the quote was ""Even though I walk through the Valley of the Shadow of Death, I fear No Evil, 'cause I'm the meanest son of a b#tch in the valley."

"The sniper would fire in the general direction of the target, continue to lase the target "
Does the sniper have to keep the target in sight for the entire duration of the flight of the bullet ??? Why can't he take multiple shots from an ordinary sniper rifle instead if he really has to be sure ? Thermal imaging/ heat pattern seeking round would be way better for anti-personal applications. Or even a pheromone detector based round. But in anycase its just not feasible untill Judge Dredd era comes along.

Yes, the sniper would have to keep the target for the entire duration of the flight of the bullet (which really isn't that long) due to the simplicity of the guidance system on the projectile. As of now, the plans include simple guidance systems which respond to broadcasts from the gun which consist of the whereabouts of the target.

-Ancalagon

[Anthony]

That really isn't going to work...

Your picture doesn't show any means of direction control, or stabilising devices.

Secondly, the rocket motors in your picture represent less than 5% of the total size of the round. That really isn't enough to accelerate a projectile of that size/weight.

Thirdly, your design is 90-95% payload, name one smart weapon that has anywhere near that payload ratio!

[ancalagon]

"Your picture doesn't show any means of direction control, or stabilising devices"

You'll notice that there are two boxes marked guidance systems. They would control the output of the secondary rockets, allowing for directional change by way of thrusts.

"Secondly, the rocket motors in your picture represent less than 5% of the total size of the round. That really isn't enough to accelerate a projectile of that size/weight."

You're right. However, I did say that the picture is not to scale (yet). I am still trying to fix my main computer, and without it I cannot make anything but the crudest of drawings.

"Thirdly, your design is 90-95% payload, name one smart weapon that has anywhere near that payload ratio!"

But this cartridge isn't like most smart weapons, because it is not designed to do much in the way of directional changes, nor is the guidance system very advanced. Therefore, the engines and other systems that a guided missile would have are not needed.

-Ancalagon

[nbk2000]

Ancalagon, you're #14 on the list posted at http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?s=&postid=38275#post38275

[ancalagon]

I get the hint, so I'll shut up on this. I thought you would just lock the thread, but apparently you were kind enough (and I'm not being sarcastic here) to let me close on my own, and leave with some (possibly undeserved) dignity, and I thank you for that. So I'll put an end to any replies on this thread, and anyone who wishes to say anything more is free to email me. Thanks for the help and advice from all.

-Ancalagon

[Boob Raider]

Ancalagon ...... DONOT make fun of a Biblical Quotation again :mad: . If you wan't to get back at me come up with a smart idea and not by mocking a biblical quote.

[ancalagon]

I wasn't trying to get back at you or insult you with the quote. I missed church once when I was young, because I was sick. My father made me memorize that psalm instead, and said he would test me when my family returned. So I memorized it, and recited it to my father after he got back, and I was forgiven for missing church. After a brief lecture, my father got up to leave, but right before he walked out of the room, he told me that joke. I found it amusing, although it is poking fun at my religion. I frimly believe that if one feels comfortable telling a joke that might offend someone (a polish joke, a french joke, a blonde joke, a psycho joke, et cetera) then one must be able to take light of any subject. I believe that one most hold the same policy across the board, otherwise it is almost saying, "it is okay to make fun of such and such a person, but not this type of person, and I find that discriminating. However, I did not mean to offend you and I apologize.

-Ancalagon

[cutefix]

The sniper technology remains the same practically the same .
If you will see the different high powered anti-material guns that is popular worldwide. The principles remains the same. High velocity bullet fired from a good rifle.
Therefore any futuristic ideas will remain in the drawing board for the time being.
Although it may offer radical possibilities.
For new idea look at the latest model of the Steyr Anti material rifle:
http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn46-e.htm
You can see also different anti material rifles used by many countries.

[zaibatsu]

ancalagon,

I was reading a book entitled "RAPID FIRE - The Development of Automatic Cannon, Heavy Machine Guns and their Ammunition for Armies, Navies and Air Forces" by Anthony G Williams, and they had some things in their *similar* to what you were talking about. Something you may wish to look into are the "Extended Range Guided Munition" which seem to be pretty similar to what you are talking about.

If you quit with the fly-by-wire lazer guidance, a feasible idea would be to combine a lazer rangefinder with a GPS system to give you the coordinates of a person. Then you could fire your projectile high into the air, and then have it come gliding down on fins to the GPS coords. However, I guess that wouldn't help too much if they were moving.


Or, an alternative system would be to use small explosive charges to guide the projectile, doing away with fins. But, this again would be pretty complex. Still, doing a google search (http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=extended+range+guided+munition&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&btnG=Google+Search&meta=) should bring up something interesting.

[stickfigure]

I thought I would make a couple small comments on this subject. First it in nearly impossible to "silence" a sniper rifle and if your are able to suppress the blast you still have to sonic boom. With a high powered rifle the boom is actually an advantage as it causes an echo that appears to come from the opposite direction and the enemy will turn around and have there backs to you as you take your next shot. Also if your are 2,000 yds away with a suppressed .50 cal. they will have to work really hard to get to you. Second the US Air Force is working and a weapon that would be able to reach any target in the world within two-hours launched within the US. That doesn't sound like much but that two hours at the longest ranges. And considering it takes a B-1, our fastest bomber at least 13 hours to make it halfway around the planet, not considering refuel time this is remarkable. This is a munition that is basically an "ultimate" sniper weapon and will also be nuke capable. It will be able to loiter over a target at high altitude and for up to 24 hours and strike when to target presents itself.

[yt2095]

perhaps using smokeless powder a subsonic projectile (fragmentation, and poison loaded) to kill your victim AFTER you`de set up a remote charge at an angle (opposite`s too obvious for sound ricochet) that sounded like a gun and emited a little smoke (too much would be obvious also). the remote trigger could be a simple microswitch and wire on or near your grip or trigger finger that goes to a radio device sitting next to you on your roof or hill or whatever. these charges could be multi triggerable for more than one assasination, and cheap as chips to make!
you could even have recoil or sound sensitive or break-beam detector at your muzzel. You fire from the East, peoples eyes will look to the north or south, when one or 2 people start looking that way, the sheeple will always follow! and agree with each other and fabricate their own stories about how they even saw the glint of the lens or barrel (when they were probably picking their noses) sheeples memories in a crowd and shocking situations are EASILY influenced by others, exploitably! :)

and the whole lot would would probably cost you about £40 ($60) at Radio Shack to make. :D

[compound]

if any one has seen the MP5SD without the silencer then you would first notice that it has a barrel just larger than say a berreta 92f. This means that the silencer is about 4-5 times the size of the barrel. This solution would just not be practical for a sniper rifle unlsess your like 30ft tall. If you want to assasinate someone do this. Use a sniper rifle with a flass suppresser and use smokeless powder rounds. Fire your shoot and kill the dude or whatever then detonate a couple of loud explosions in someplace were your not. If you want you could also remotly set off 1 smoke grenade in the opposite direction to you. Any enemy/feds who see this will think you are deploying a smoke screen to get away and will assume you are were the smoke screen is. By the time they realise your smart and there dumd the target will be daed and you will be thousands of miles away. :D

[CommonScientist]

I designed a odd round for long-range chuck hunting one day. It was composed of the Barrett M82A1 sniper rifle system, and a .25 cal sabot accellerator round for the .50. Its FPS would be ungodly I would imagine, so the only problem being wind, which when accounted for via scope and a brain, would make one bad day for the target.

Yes, a 30' gun could be a possible problem ;-), unless you were stationed in the Alps, and had a cavern hidaway, where you fire from, but it would still be useless, as silencers can slow down the projectile.

[atr]

I shoot , F , class and although i'm not or ever have been a sniper i get to meet a lot of them . One of the biggest worries for modern snipers is technology . I'm not talking cop swat marksman but battlefield military snipers . The modern laser rangefinder is great because the opposition doesn't have the technology to pick up a laser and track it back to the source . Al Quida nor the Taliban or the Iraqis' have it , but we do and so do the Russians and Chinese . If the day comes that we have to go up against the Chins or Ruskies a laser rangefinder is going to give the sniper teams position away . As long as we're shooting third world folks we won't have to worry about that for awhile but some of the technology is finding it's way to the mud huts . Sniper teams use calculators to plot trajectory and dope wind but any and every electronic device has seepage and transmits a signal . Right now in Canada the military are flying with seepage detectors looking for and finding people with pirate television satallite signals systems . A t.v. satallite system is a reciever but they seep and also transmit and the transmission can be tracked as easily as a cellphone signal . Al Quida tried useing cellphones and f.m. radios and as soon as they turned them on they were greeted by a cruise missle . Third world folks don't have the technology to pick up the seepage from a sniper teams calculator but we do , and so do the Chins and Ruskies . A smuggler was caught on the Turkey/Iraq border a few months ago with a dozen third generation infrared scopes . Ancient technology manufactured in Russia sold in the west by Bushnel . Thermal imaging devices are very dangerous to a sniper team in the hands of the enemy and now almost anyone can afford one . My point is that if anyone is going to design a new sniper system or munitions enemy technology has to be taken into account and we must look at the most advanced enemy technology so we would have to build the system by reverse engineering from the enemy technology perspective . As long as we're shooting mud hut folks we're o.k. , so far but in sniping signature is everything whether it's your thermal image , laser image or the signature of your munition or electronic leakage or accoustic . Snipers , for the most part don't shoot tracers for the same reason that they won't shoot rocket propelled munitions . With unmanned drones and satallites useing thermal , optical and electronic detectors able to call upon a cruise missle at a seconds notice and laze the target for the missle battlefield snipers are almost obselete . Not quite , but almost . No sniper needs anything that will ad to his signature but needs everything to defeat the enemies ability to read his signature .

[Bugger]

"Now I remember where I saw this idea from...the "Friday the Thirtenth" TV series."

I thought the Friday series were the Jason movies. I saw one of them, Jason X. It was almost funny, but just to poor...

"I'm sorry to say that high-powered rifles, which make up 99.99% of sniper rifle cartridges, can not be silenced. The bullets break the sound barrier, creating a sonic boom. The only way to get rid of this is to use subsonic ammunition, which defeats the purpose of using a high-powered rifle in the first place. (It is not very powerful.)"

I addressed this earlier in the thread. First of all, the missile is launched as a subsonic bullet, and the missile kicks in later to hide point of origin and to increase maximum effective range. Secondly, there are assault weapons built to fire subsonic ammunition while still laying claim to being highly lethal. Finally, this rifle is not a high-powered rifle. The projectile itself is high powered.


I thought the quote was ""Even though I walk through the Valley of the Shadow of Death, I fear No Evil, 'cause I'm the meanest son of a b#tch in the valley."

"The sniper would fire in the general direction of the target, continue to lase the target "
Does the sniper have to keep the target in sight for the entire duration of the flight of the bullet ??? Why can't he take multiple shots from an ordinary sniper rifle instead if he really has to be sure ? Thermal imaging/ heat pattern seeking round would be way better for anti-personal applications. Or even a pheromone detector based round. But in anycase its just not feasible untill Judge Dredd era comes along.

Yes, the sniper would have to keep the target for the entire duration of the flight of the bullet (which really isn't that long) due to the simplicity of the guidance system on the projectile. As of now, the plans include simple guidance systems which respond to broadcasts from the gun which consist of the whereabouts of the target.

-Ancalagon

It would take very sophisticated micro-miniaturization of electronics for an automatic target guidance device to be built into a bullet capable of being fired by an ordinary portable rifle, as distinct from a shoulder-mounted grenade launcher which is much heavier and bulkier. As regards the disadvantage of subsonic bullets having to be used instead of supersonic bullets because of the sonic boom caused by breaking the sound barrier, with resulting loss of penetrating power by the subsonic bullet, this could be compensated for by having bullets made with explosive charges inside them (which are presently only made as artillery shells and for heavy-caliber anti-aircraft guns of at least about 25mm size), and/or made of a heavier and harder ballistic material like depleted uranium.

Bugger.

[raptor1956]

have enjoyed both sides of this thread and thought I'd add my 20 cents worth. I have a little experience in long range shooting in both military and hunting formats. (to be fair my military experiences were with 4.5" naval guns and ikara missiles!) However my best mate is an ex aussie SAS sniper sniper instructor, and qualified marksman, with 25 years in the aussie army to back it all up. As I understand it, the idea behind sniping is to use a two man team to produce a strategic result out of all proportion to their numbers. The main requirements for a sniper are stealth, concealment, and manouverability, and while "smart" rocket-assisted ammo may help with range etc. the logistics of using such rounds would effectively negate these much of the time, and the reliability factor would add too much unpredictability to the kill ratios. On the other side however, there is nothing wrong with someone thinking these things up. If it wasn't for people theorising the impossible or impractical, weapons design would still be at the stage where we threw rocks at each other.

[Jacks Complete]

I disagree in part. Since all minature electronic systems are very sophisticated, there is no big step forward. Especially when you consider that the "code" required for this project is four lines long, or eight if you want variable/proportional feedback, rather than "on/off". Give me ten million or a wafer fab plant and I could have a friend design it, and I could start production. You don't even need a new wafer plant.

As for the power/KE problem, there really isn't one. Yes, you need to stay subsonic, so you simply have the projectile hit them in the head or throat, and that's that, even with a fairly small projectile.

The laser tracking systems/B2 bombs/cruise missiles, etc. are mostly how it is done today, but consider that the sniper weapon of choice is actually a laser designator - takes out a tank, takes out a house, takes out a person (and his mates)

I would consider a guided countermeasure to this to be something that the West would build in a second if the enemy were using these toys against us. As was pointed out above, there isn't anyone who has this level of tech ranged against us. I have more hi-tech in my house than the Taliban ever had! (I could probably have slowed down the invading US army more, too, but there you go - so could anyone sane, but you could argue that no-one sane would go up against the US!)

[markgollum]

In regards to the idea that silencing a high-powerd rifle is pointless, I disagree.
A rifle that is high powered can, of course, fire bullets at a very high velocity or it can fire much heavier bullets at a low velocity.
For example, a .338-06 (a high powered rifle) can fire a 160 Gr (grain) bullet at 2890 fps or it can fire a 250 Gr bullet 2214 fps (still way above the speed of sound). And it could, with reduced loads and very heavy bullets (you can get 300Gr .338 cal bullets) be made to fire them just below the speed of sound. What I am trying to say is that a 300Gr bullet traveling at 950fps while it may not shoot as flat, or have as much destructive capability as a lighter fast bullet, but will be silent and still be very effective out to about 350yards with a competent marksman, and proper equipment.

[tdog49]

What Mark says is true, after all this is the whole point behind the Whisper family of cartridges pioneered by J.D. Jones at :

'www.sskindustries.com/'

really impressive stuff
for example, the 510 whisper (one of the big loads) has a 750 gr projectile at 1050 fps and is sub moa at 600 yds.....

no matter how you add that up, it will ruin your day if your unlucky enough to catch it.....

[curious sniper]

if i want to make my .22mag rifle sound even quieter when out hunting i just stick a 1.25L coke bottle over the muzzle, it acts like a pretty good "poor mans" silencer

[zaibatsu]

And it would be even quieter inserted into your rectum while the trigger is pulled. You couldn't be more original and come out with the other oft-mentioned suppressor theory of a potato on the end of the barrel?

[nbk2000]

if i want to make my .22mag rifle sound even quieter when out hunting i just stick a 1.25L coke bottle over the muzzle, it acts like a pretty good "poor mans" silencer_

Where the underlining is, is where you failed to use proper grammar.

Such as:


Failure to capitalize the beginning of a sentence.
Failure to capitalize the letter I when using it in reference to oneself.
Failing to end a sentence with a punctuation mark, such as a period.


Improve on these failures in the future. :)

Oh, and you forgot to mention Thermite! ;)

[Docca]

if i want to...

What, no feeding frenzy?

I/i, necromancy (or digging up a 2 year old topic with nothing useful to add, take your pick), PMJB, etc.


Must be "kinder + gentler" week. I don't think it will last.

[Cobalt.45]

And it would be even quieter inserted into your rectum while the trigger is pulled.
I'm not post whoring here, but I just had to say that this struck me as being funny as hell.

Thanks for the laugh!

[ap_gruffud]

well then curious sniper, did you know that puting a coke bottle over your muzzle is the fastest way to fuck your barrel? I suggest you go and check your poor ".22mag" for a bulge.

[ShadowMyGeekSpace]

There's no way that a 2 liter coke bottle can increase barrel/chmaber pressure beyond the proofing of a firearm. You're talking about very thin plastic, and it's most likely not even air tight.

[Jacks Complete]

You will increase the back-pressure, and on a .22 s/a you will find all sorts of weird things happening, with the powder blowing back out the mech, burning your hands, getting in your eyes, etc. as well as whacking the bolt back against the stop far harder than normal. Use something like a lever action or a bolt action, and doing the same trick, can, sometimes, cause a barrel bulge, though this is unlikely (except with a shotgun!) What you will likely get is increased back pressure, which makes the bolt hard to work.

Going back to the original post start, I see the idea being a good one, but it's still years off. I'd love to design and build one, but I doubt I would get the permissions. The downside is that the countermeasures to it would be really, really simple to implement. You could adapt the standard anti-laser radar speed trap systems to protect you, probably without any work at all, just a power lead. It would both warn of the laser ranging, and jam it (perhaps) but it would easily upset the guidance laser. Even with a complex system, it would overwhelm the sensor, and a simple system would be pulled off line as it tried to turn towards the secondary source.

Some work would be required to make this system work, but I think I could do it. Certainly in a shotgun format, where the projectile doesn't spin much, and there is a lot more space and mass to play with. Keep it fairly simple, and heavy, and sub-sonic. I'd go for a 18.5mm projectile (12 bore) at first, and work from there.

[Cobalt.45]

No way, no how will a 2 liter bottle bulge the barrel of a .22, unless it's heat treat is altered/ not in spec. Even then, it's very doubtful.

That being said, it's a bone head move to ever obstruct the barrel of a gun with anything.

Anyone see that Mythboner's episode where they try to bulge the barrel of a rifle with a "finger"?

[Docca]

A. No way, no how will a 2 liter bottle bulge the barrel of a .22.

B. That being said, it's a bone head move to ever obstruct...

C. Anyone see that Mythboner's episode...

A. I've got to agree here. The only way you could cause a bulge would be to roll up a piece of the bottle and obstruct the barrel. Given the earlier context, it's a kewlish idea, but would probably reduce the sound of the shot. If you want a quiet legal .22 use standard velocity ammo.

B. Agreed.

C. No, but I can assure you that if you obstruct the end (finger or otherwise) of a significant caliber rifle you'll be sorry. I've got pictures, but if you've ever seen Bugs stick his finger in the end of Elmer's gun - It looks just like that...

Formerly a rifle -

'http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/docca357/1.jpg'

Formerly an obstruction -

'http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o144/docca357/2.jpg'

[ShadowMyGeekSpace]

Baffling a weapon with a 2 liter bottle won't do jack, even in higher caliburs. Infact, the pressure rating for a barrel rises accordingly with calibur, so theres no fucking WAY it would do it. As for a barrel obstruction, it will only cause a kaboom if

1) The breech blows from over pressure

2) There's a sudden increase in pressure

and with #2, any milspec firearm will usually perform well with a partial obstruction. The MilSpec H&K USP (dubbed the mk23 for those that care), .45ACP pistol was given a full obstruction during testing. That's right, they field stripped the weapon, jammed a .45 round in the barrel, and then fired a round through the barrel. Minus a slight bulge, the barrel showed little damage. The round also hit the target, and held tight groups during subsequent firing of the weapon.

[Uraijit]

It apears that the old plans have been lost. I hacked into ancalagon's computer and retrieved his completed plans. They're actually better than I had originally expected. And now that his computer is "out of the shop". He's using Photoshop CS2. Impressive!
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r72/Uraijit/Untitled-1copy.jpg

[Docca]

I hope NBK got the kill cam working...

At least I know one of the next names to be fed to the beast.

[Uraijit]

If you're talking about me, I doubt it. I think NBK has enough sense to get a joke when he sees it. Everybody already knew this thread was crap. And like I said, he's got some comon sense, and a good sense of humor. And it would apear he's down for some good ol' fashioned ridicule of morons every now and again. Good try though. Better luck next time ;)

[nbk2000]

I liked the Chuck Norris reference! :D

UTFgoogleSE to find 'The Ultimate Showdown of Ultimate Destiny'. ;)

[Cobalt.45]

If that's a "who":) and not a "what":confused: , that's standing behind the AK "Witness Suppressor", "they" sure are excited about the project, it would appear!:o

Pretty damn funny.:D

[prespec]

Newbie here, but with more than a little experience building and shooting match rifles.

Some of the ideas are not quite as implausable as they sound. The Gyro-jet pistol was an old design from the 60's, if I recall correctly, and shot a rocket assisted projectile, but with no useful accuracy.

Base-bleed propellant is also used in some artillery shells to overcome base-drag, thus enhancing range.

BTW...Anyone wishing to subjugate New Zealand will find many accomplished riflemen .

[prespec]

well then curious sniper, did you know that puting a coke bottle over your muzzle is the fastest way to fuck your barrel? I suggest you go and check your poor ".22mag" for a bulge.

Absolute rubbish!
The exterior volume will allow the bullet to escape well before retarding it's progress up the barrel. Bore volume, at any time , is less than a coke bottle and the barrel is substantially stronger.


The coke bottle would have all the utility of a chocolate teapot as a supressor too, but no harm would be done.

Think about it!!

[Bugger]

(cut) BTW...Anyone wishing to subjugate New Zealand will find many accomplished riflemen .
Oh yes, - wild ducks, goats, pigs (not the kind that go around framing people on false charges), deer, rabbits, opossums, stoats, and wildcats are hunted here for sport and pest control; and rifles are standard equipment on cattle and sheep farms for home kills and for protection against wild dogs.