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green beret
September 8th, 2001, 09:14 PM
I dont know if this really belongs here but its not a low explosive or an explosive peroxide so I put it here.
I am wondering if anyone has any experience with copper acetylide as the only data I have is that it is very shock and heat sensitive and the crystals explode when broken. Is it safe to handle when wet? Any information would be very helpful. The reason I have chosen this explosive is that it is simple to make and seems to (possibly) have similar properties to nitrogen tri-iodide, which I think could be useful for specific purposes, as I cant make nitrogen tri-iodide.

CodeMason
September 8th, 2001, 09:23 PM
Why can't you make NI3?

green beret
September 8th, 2001, 09:29 PM
I cant make it because I cant get the iodine crystals. Its hard to get alot of things in Australia, even things that might seem simple and common to everyone else.

CodeMason
September 8th, 2001, 11:22 PM
I live in Australia too, it's not hard.
1. Go to the chemist, buy potassium/sodium iodide solution, at mine it's in big jugs and very cheap too. Whilst there buy some hydrogen peroxide, 6% solution (20 volume) will do.
2. Go to the hardware store and purchase some hydrochloric acid.
3. Work out the amount needed of each ingredient, based on this reaction:

<font face="courier new" size=2>2KI + 2HCl + H<sub>2</sub>O<sub>2</sub> --> I<sub>2</sub> + 2KCl + 2H<sub>2</sub>O</font>

I had 6% KI so I just mixed it with H<sub>2</sub>O<sub>2</sub> around equal parts, then slowly added HCl until the amount of iodine I wanted had precipitated. Then I poured it through a coffee filter paper, washed the I<sub>2</sub> crystals and stored them in an old pill container. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

green beret
September 9th, 2001, 12:18 AM
Thanks codemason! I cant wait to try out that reaction. Does it emit any toxic fumes? From what I can tell, it shouldn't... am I correct? So, just to get this straight-you mix equal parts KI and H2o2 then add the HCl(slowly) then the iodine crystals will precipitate out. What brand ammonia do you get and where? Thanks. Still looking for data on Copper acetylide eveyone!:-)

shooter3
September 9th, 2001, 12:20 AM
In Nam they used a bomb delivered minefield called gravel. It was a spoonfull of copper acetylide in a little cloth camoflage bag. Thousands of these bags(desensitized by storing in liquid freon)were packed into cluster bomb type casings. On release at a pre-determand altitude the bomb would burst, scattering these bag all over hells half acre. After 20 minutes or less, the freon would all evaporate. You didn't want to be caught in this minefield. There was just enough explosive to take off a foot. If you were lucky, you wouldn't fall on another mine. It still was a hell of job trying to get that casualty out of the field. I've made it before. The stuff is pretty sensitive, but not as sensitive as NI3. Have fun, but be very careful.

CodeMason
September 9th, 2001, 12:32 AM
It doesn't emit any toxic fumes, the products of this reaction are solid iodine (which is toxic and staining, but not a vapour), table salt and water, however HCl acid is volatile and anhydrous HCl gas is very damaging to your lungs and respiritory system.
I don't know if that's the prefered method or not, but that's what I did, I obtained a fairly good amount of solid I<sub>2</sub> from it, and the ingredients are quite cheap anyway.
I can't find noncloudy NH<sub>4</sub>OH around here, so I make my own by bubbling NH<sub>3</sub> through water.

I think it would be copper (i) acetylide, Cu-C-C-Cu. Am I right? Does it need to be in double salts with something like NO<sub>3</sub>? If it's copper (i), that means it can't be made, at least not directly, from copper sulfate which is copper (ii). It seems to be a lot harder than silver acetylide.

tvs17
September 9th, 2001, 04:39 AM
Cu2C2 can be made via copper(I)chloride.

You can make CuCl by the following reaction:

2CuSO4.5H2O + 2 NaCl + SO2 + 2H2O --> 2 CuCl + Na2SO4 + 2H2SO4

Gaseous SO2 is passed into a hot(60-70 dC) aqueous solution of CuSO4.6H2O(50 g) and sodium chloride(24 g) until precipitation is complete. The product is isolated by filtration, dissolved in concentrated HCl, diluted with H2O, filtered and washed with concentrated acetic acid and diethylethet. The salt is dried at 110 dC under vacuum and stored with exclusion of air and humidity.

You can probably use the crude product also for Cu2C2.

Other methods of preparing CuCl2:

- CuCl2 is heated in glycerin to 150-200 dC. The formed CuCl is filtered, washed with ethanol and dried under vacuum.

- Reduction of CuCl2 with N2H4.H2O(if you like to waste precious hydrazin)

Reference:
Synthetic Methods of Organometallic and Inorganic Chemistry, Volume 5, D.K. Breitinger, W.A. Herrmann, Thieme, 1999

CodeMason
September 9th, 2001, 04:56 AM
It seems like a lot of trouble to go to for a not very spectacular nor unique compound. IMO, it's a more viable to simply create silver acetylide/nitrate or NI<sub>3</sub>.

tvs17
September 9th, 2001, 06:18 AM
Well, not SO much trouble.. Just half an hour work, an you can make easily large quantities of it. Most HE syntheses are far more complicated.

And besides that, Cu2C2 is a much more economical choice than the silver salt...

CodeMason
September 9th, 2001, 06:44 AM
Sure, it's -easy-, but many of the materials are either hard to find or quite expensive. Where is the average joe going to find a sulfur combustion chamber? Plus refining the crude CuCl seems like a big production that couldn't be done outside the lab. When the metal salt isn't a nitrate, doesn't valuable HNO<sub>3</sub> have to be used when forming the acetylide?
As opposed to simply buying some silver nitrate from the photographic supply house and running acetylene+ammonia through it, I'm sure the latter is far more economical.

[This message has been edited by CodeMason (edited September 09, 2001).]

tvs17
September 9th, 2001, 07:17 AM
When you put it that way.

I guess I'm just getting used to the standard equipment and chems I have in my own lab.. And in my country you can't buy silvernitrate in photographic suppluy stores(or any other chems)..

Refining is indeed a bit difficult for some people I guess, but just be a bit creative in thinking other ways of purification.

Mr Cool
September 9th, 2001, 08:20 AM
I think double salts (Ag2C2.AgNO3) would be better if you can get the stuff, it's easy to make, stable in storage and quite powerful. And silver isn't very expensive if you can buy it at bullion value (£2-3 per ounce, which could make quite a lot of explosive...). Get yourself a small acetylene tank (expensive, but you get most of the money back when you return the empty tank) and HNO3 from a hydroponics store or wood-work store (a few £/litre).

But maybe in Australia you can't do that...
Despite what many people say, the UK is a great place to be for pyro enthusiasts.

On a slightly related subject, has anyone ever heard of/made Ag2C2.AgClO3? Here's something similar, from FEMFEP:

2.5 Chloratotrimercuriacetaldehyde

A stream of acetylene (from calcium carbide in water) was led into a
solution of 0.3 gram of mercuric nitrate and 0.1 gram sodium chlorate
in 20 ml of water. The solid suspension was initially white then turned
grey upon further treatment with acetylene. The product was collected on a
filter, washed with water and air dried. Ignition temperature was ca. 150
centigrades as determined with a Fisher-Johns melting point apparatus.

CodeMason
September 9th, 2001, 08:53 AM
I think that would have to be made with silver chlorate or chloric acid, both are not your average everyday chemicals! It's similar to TACN vs. TACC, do you want greater stability or greater power? Since silver acetylide/nitrate is highly unstable already, I think silver acetylide/chlorate would not be a good idea.

VasiaPupkin
September 9th, 2001, 09:02 AM
Some about copper acetylenyde . Its a bad primer with low VoD (I tried 1 g. this primer to detonate 90%/10% RDX/binder charge without success) but sufficienty dangerous and very sensitive, equal to silver fulminate. Explosion is not expressive because very little gas volume is formed. Mercury or silver more dangerous. But HMTD is more effective and safe. It stands non active like NJ3 when wetted. Sometimes it found useful in laboratory practice when need shock ignition (in the explosion of gas mixture investigation). T ign 120-150 C. Tend to decompose in acidic solutions,some slowly than other acetylenides. In books no info about double salts or complexes.
I prepared it with most easy way I know: Add CuSO4 (or other soluble Cu (II) salt) to excess glucose water solution. Heat this mixture, and add NaOH, mixture stands intensively blue (Cu gluconates), then light brown. Cool the mixture, and wait 1-2 days, filter precipitate (Cu2O). Then you can add ammonia solution with excess. Cu2O + 4NH3 + H2O => 2Cu[NH3]2OH (almost colorless solution, dont keep ready solution more than few hours, because Cu (I) => Cu(II)). Then it need to pass C2H2 (CaC2 reaction with water) through solution: 2Cu[NH3]2OH + C2H2 => 2NH3 + 2H2O + Cu2C2 (filter brown precipitate and wash with spirit, when you use C2H2 excess CuC=-CH is precipitated)

green beret
September 9th, 2001, 09:47 AM
Thanks all. Excuse my ignorance codemason, but what is NH3 (the stuff you bubble through water to make NH40H). Also thankyou to vasia pupkin. You are all probably wondering why I chose to make this particular explosive, well it is very hard to get alot of things in Oz and this paticular compound fitted my needs and is relatively easy to manufacture. The only substitute is NI3 which I may now be able to make, thanks codemason!! ;-)

CodeMason
September 9th, 2001, 10:15 AM
green beret: If you don't know that NH<sub>3</sub> is ammonia gas, then I must highly recommend you get some highschool chemistry textbooks, or even better some of the very informative chemistry tutorials available on the web. ( http://members.nbci.com/rlstein/ )
I don't mean to sound rude but you have a lot of learning to do, it's very hard to safely create explosives if you don't know the chemistry behind it. I don't want you to get injured or possibly killed! Basic chemistry knowledge is all that's really required to get you started, spend a long enough time at the forum and it will come to you easily enough. Good luck!

CodeMason
September 9th, 2001, 10:18 AM
Wouldn't the glucose salt of Cu be an explosive in its own right? I should think so, albeit not a very powerful one.

green beret
September 9th, 2001, 10:24 AM
No offence taken codemason. Thanks.

tvs17
September 9th, 2001, 12:44 PM
I don't think coper glucolate will be an explosive or when it is, extremely weak. Oxygen content is relatively low compared to tartrates for example.

[This message has been edited by tvs17 (edited September 09, 2001).]

Mr Cool
September 9th, 2001, 01:25 PM
Glycerol: C3H8O3 (right?)
Glucose: C6H12O6
Per gram glycerol needs more oxygen to burn completely than glucose, and lead glycerolate apparently has some explosive properties, probably the glucosate does too. I'm not sure about copper though...
But yes, probably weaker than tartarates, oxalates etc.

tvs17
September 9th, 2001, 01:43 PM
Yes. I've read somewhere that lead glucolate is indeed an (weak) explosive(edit: in "Primary explosives, J. Kohler, 1942") But I really don't think the copper salt is.
I would like to know why! Why are lead salts more often explosives than for example copper?

[This message has been edited by tvs17 (edited September 09, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by tvs17 (edited September 09, 2001).]

VasiaPupkin
September 9th, 2001, 03:09 PM
First of all. This Cu gluconate is only intermediate for Cu2C2 preparing. More correctly its a mixture of Cu gluconate,various Cu complexes and spirits with 5-6 C atoms. As I remember finaly only linear spirits is present (On similar way you can get mannite for MHN http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif. I have never heard about using it in High or low explosives. Similar organic salts like tartrates, oxalates, glycolates (its glycerine salts in english?) somethimes useful in low explosive mixtures but I think it is weak to be named HE http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif And therefore its not interesting for me.
to tvs17: Pb salts is always useful because its usually more heat, chemically stable, somethimes more safe (azides, fulminates). Its concern to common primary E and explosive organic salts.

tvs17
September 9th, 2001, 03:24 PM
Mr. Cool, I am going to try the synthesis of the chloratotrimercuriethanal. And I will also try to make some similiar compounds like perchloratotrimercuriethanal. But I think this kind of compounds only form with mercury, since Hg2+ is also the salt that catalyses the reaction between ethyn and water to ethanal.
But I first have to make a washing bottle with HgCl2 to purify my acetylene gas that is extremely contaminated with fosfine..
Hmmm. I like mercury ;-). It is such an interesting chemical. Too bad it is so extremely toxic.

Ezikiel
September 9th, 2001, 07:10 PM
Green B .... the sensitivity of of Cu2C2 is very similar to Red Phos. + KClO3 (Is this aka Armstrong's mix). And Cu2Cl2 can be prepared form CuCl2 by boiling it in conc. HCl with Cu chips, filings etc. Then pour out all this mix in cold oxygen free, de-ionized H2O. It should be dried very rapidly and kept away from O2 so I would advise you to dissolve the wet Cu2Cl2 in NH4OH and pass C2H2 through it. Cu2C2 will ppt. out.
Also one problem guys ..... I need a source of nitrates, chlorates, HNO3 etc. in Canada. I don't wanna go to a Chemical shop and answer a billion questions about what I need them for and inspite all that be looked upon with suspicion. HELP !!!!

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"Chance favours the prepared mind"

green beret
September 9th, 2001, 10:09 PM
Thanks eziekiel, just for example: if I was to put this on someones car tyre and let it dry over night, it would go of when they backed out and crushed it, correct? I am quite sure this would happen. Or say if I dropped a film cannister of it, it would also most likely detonate correct?

cutefix
September 9th, 2001, 10:18 PM
Hello tvs17,I see that you really like the copper acetylide.I happen to find a procedure for preparing its precursors copper chlorides.check this out:
http://www.rhodium.ws/chemistry/cucl.txt
It may simplify your synthesis of these material.

tvs17
September 10th, 2001, 02:08 AM
Cutefix, thanks for the link. Well, I don't really like Cu2C2 as an explosive, but I do like to think out all posibilities to make HE. I didn't think at Rhodium's site yet.. He does have some interesting precursors!

Ezikiel
September 12th, 2001, 12:03 AM
Yes it will detonate. So keep it wet if u want to store it. I use a 70% alcohol and 30% water mixture when I want to store it for a long time other wise alcohol is good enough and it is easier to dry. I used to tip the caps for my arrows with it and have a main charge of Picric acid.

------------------
"Chance favours the prepared mind"

tvs17
September 12th, 2001, 02:49 AM
Well, if you say so. But it must be under heavy confinement then because I really tried it several times with enormous quantities of Al-foil. But also in other ways it only defraglated...

Edit: I'm talking about TACN here, not Cu2C2. After reading in this thread again, I realise I've posted this message in the wrong thread.



[This message has been edited by tvs17 (edited October 04, 2001).]