megalomania
June 14th, 2003, 08:49 PM
Jumala
Frequent Poster
Posts: 200
From: Germany
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 04-17-2001 09:05 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A few days ago I bought a 50Kg bag of Kalk-Ammonsalpeter fertilizer 27-0-0 for 23 DM (10 US$). The stuff is really cheap.
But separating the AN from the lime makes problems.
I poored a lot of fertilizer in hot water and tryed to filter the solution but the lime closed the filter immediately. Using other filtermaterial (old T-shirt) donīt works because the lime passes the filter also.
Now I have an other idea.
I want to make a saturated solution in 90°C water holding the temperature until the lime settles on the bottom and then remove the AN solution.
My question is : How much AN can be dissolved in 0°C water and in 90°C water.
Does anybody have this informations?
wantsomfet
Frequent Poster
Posts: 236
From: EU
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 04-18-2001 07:24 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey Jumala, check your mail. Didn't want to type all in english...
BTW, where did you get it, "Raiffeisen" or OBI ;-)
------------------
for best catfood visit:
catfood.tsx.org
[This message has been edited by wantsomfet (edited April 18, 2001).]
DarkAngel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 592
From: ?
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-18-2001 06:50 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey Jumala
Whe in Holland have the same stuff it`s also cald "kalk Ammonsalpeter" aka "KAS"
On my site in the recipe section i maked a file on how to do the trick,You said that the t-shirt methode doesn`t worked,Your wrong about that,
You need to settle down the dirt(mud) first and than you filter the stuff till the dirt start's to enter your filter at that moment you stop and throw the remaining dirt/water away and wash the t-shirt you must do this a view times after a view times the solution is much more clear and you must fold the t-shirt
(So there more layers working as a filter)
a view times and filter it again,If you do this right you will get a very clear solution after a view times
,There is some kind of binder in the "KAS" that will float on the solution(White foamy substance) if you really can`t get this out with the filter you can scoop it out with a spoon
Cya
------------------
DarkAngel
For explosives and stuff go to Section1 http://www.section1.f2s.com And http://run.to/section1
sendtosection1@hotmail.com
Jumala
Frequent Poster
Posts: 200
From: Germany
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 04-18-2001 08:39 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you for your e-mails!
I bought the fertilizer from a Raiffeisen Market and it is "Made in Holland".
After the hot solution has cooled down, 24 hours later, I found a handfull of very large (like a match) AN crystals in the solution. They were laying on the mud at the bottom. I poored the whole stuff through a sieve and now I have 100g clean AN crystals.
The problem:
Most of the AN and the mud is still in the solution.
My intension is to produce a maximum of the large crystals so that I donīt need to evaporate so much water.
I know that 1 l water at 0°C dissolves 130g KNO3 and 1 l water at 100°C dissolves 2450g KNO3. Iīm certain that the solubility of AN
is higher but it could be a problem to dissolve 3 Kg or more fertilizer in only 1Kg boiling water.
I must find the best way to make a high concentrated solution, keeping the temperature at 80-90° until the mud is on the bottom and I can suck off the clear solution. After this I wait for the crystals.
DarkAngel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 592
From: ?
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-18-2001 08:54 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey man
You need to heat it much longer because when i boil my "crystal clear" AN solution and put it in the fridge it becomes rock hard after + - 2 hours and there is no water left.
I think if i use a 1 liter mesuring cup and fil it 2 times with KAS i will have after a day or 3/4(Every day 1 time 2 cup`s KAS) about a 1.5 coke bottle full of AN
------------------
DarkAngel
For explosives and stuff go to Section1 http://www.section1.f2s.com And http://run.to/section1
sendtosection1@hotmail.com
[This message has been edited by DarkAngel (edited April 18, 2001).]
wantsomfet
Frequent Poster
Posts: 236
From: EU
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 04-19-2001 08:10 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Upon cooling the (nearly) supersaturated solution, one should filter the crystals out every 30 minutes - you won't get that rockhard crystal cake then.
And when evaporating a solution only reduce the volume to a half or so unless you want that cake...
------------------
for best catfood visit:
catfood.tsx.org
Jumala
Frequent Poster
Posts: 200
From: Germany
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 04-26-2001 10:35 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After experimenting some days with a dirty ammonia smelling muddy fertilizer soup I have now the best method to separate the AN from it without evaporating any water.
At first heat up 3-4l water in a large high pot. Not a pan or so, it is to flat.
Then poor in so much (3-5l) kalk-ammonsalpeter and stir untill you think that nothing more can be dissolved.
Donīt use to less fertilizer. Hot water can dissolve a shitload of AN.
After this is done shut off the heatsource and let it stand still for 1 hour.
It isnīt nessesary to hold the solution hot. It takes some more hours before the crystalls start growing.
Now most of the mud has settled down on the bottom. Remove the muddy foam from the solutions surface. (Spoon)
Then use a flexible tube to drain the warm solution in an other large pot at a lower place. (Donīt suck off the mud also)
When the mud is cold some large but dirty AN crystals appear in the reminder solution. Collect them for the next batch.
You can filter this solution through a coffee filter to remove the last fine mud but I think it isnīt nessesary.
Now the size of the crystals you will get depends on how fast the solution cools down.
Fast cooling gives a big bunch of needles.
Slow cooling gives crystals like pencils with a size that is limited only by the diameter of the pot.
Collect the AN pencils out of the solution and let them dry.
It is interesting to see that nearby nothing of mud settles in the AN crystals. The crystals are clear and white.
Give the reminder solution back in the first (cleaned) pot, poor in the dirty AN (out of the mud) and start the proceed again.
DarkAngel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 592
From: ?
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-27-2001 05:00 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I just dreamed about getting AN from KAS and i saw i need to make a correction for my last post.
If i use 2times a 1Liter mesuring cup full of fertillizer a day(2L),and do this for 2 days(4L) i will have more than a 1.5 coke bottle.
(Not 3/4 days like i said in my last post)
How long do you guys need to dry the AN in the oven?
I takes ages for me if the AN is so dry that it won't stick to your hand if i place my hand on it,I use the lowest temp that my oven in my dream haves if i turn it on a higher temp it melts.
Getting AN out of Fertillizer can be a pain in the ass in the beginning but if you have done it a view times you will get it.
------------------
DarkAngel
For explosives and stuff go to Section1 http://www.section1.f2s.com And http://run.to/section1
sendtosection1@hotmail.com
wantsomfet
Frequent Poster
Posts: 236
From: EU
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 04-27-2001 07:50 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, in the beginning i thought "fuck it's impossibe to sepaerate reasonable amounts without too much effort"
I dry the AN at ~ 100 °C in the oven for ca. 1 - 2 hours (depends on how patient i am). It gets really dry, also i have the guarantee that the AN changes its crystal phase, lowering its density.
Befor drying in the oven i crush the AN crystals to a coarse powder - that releases some crystalwater - drying is faster.
First time i set the oven to something like 140 °C (i thought OK below the melting point, no problems...). But after 30 minutes i noticed thick white smoke coming out of the kitchen, the oven was too hot and the AN partially molten, dripped at the bttom of the oven and decomposed there. Very nasty.
------------------
for best catfood visit:
catfood.tsx.org
Jumala
Frequent Poster
Posts: 200
From: Germany
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 04-27-2001 07:26 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Today was harvestday. Yesterday I poored approx. 3l warm solution in a plastic bowl and now 24 hours later the bowl is full of white AN crystals. After separating the crystals from the reminder solution I have approx. 2 Kg AN out of 2l solution.
It is unbelieveable how much AN can be dissolved in water.
I will send you a pic of the bowl.
DarkAngel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 592
From: ?
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-02-2001 09:59 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Damn yesterday i dreamed again and my AN batch whas to much for my big storage container that i normally use i needed to tamp it down and i used a second container to store it in,
I have no scale but it's a view kilo AN i think
------------------
DarkAngel
For explosives and stuff go to Section1 http://www.section1.f2s.com And http://run.to/section1
sendtosection1@hotmail.com
~S*H*A*D*O*W~
New Member
Posts: 3
From:
Registered: MAR 2001
posted 05-02-2001 01:52 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I found some fertiliser today, and it says on the back NPK 38-5-5 this is (i think) 38% AN 5%Phosphates and 5% Pottassium. Could i use this like i would pure AN fertiliser, or do i need something purer to extract the AN?
Cheers.
------------------
10fingers
Frequent Poster
Posts: 411
From: USA
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-02-2001 01:55 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think using methanol works much better than water. I tried water a couple times and I had to leave it in the oven all day to dry it out. With methanol it takes about 1/2 hr. at 200 degrees F.
wantsomfet
Frequent Poster
Posts: 236
From: EU
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 05-05-2001 11:51 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10fingers: Put the AN in a sieve for a day or so, before drying in the oven. You'll be surprised how much water drips off over time...
Anybody knows if the AN will change its crystal phase with methanol used instead of water? I suppose it does, but not in the same extent...
The methanol vapors could be a problem in your kitchen, water is sure a lot safer.
------------------
for best catfood visit:
kangaroooo.cjb.net
10fingers
Frequent Poster
Posts: 411
From: USA
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-05-2001 01:08 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After trying methanol I would never go back to using water.
I use warm methanol and then after the impurities settle I filter it and put it in the freezer. In the morning there is a nice batch of needle like crystals. I pour off the methanol, allow it to air dry to get rid of most of the methanol, and then put it in the oven to completely dry. I assume most people know that methanol fumes are dangerous to inhale and explosive. Best to do this outdoors on a hotplate if possible. But thanks for mentioning it just in case.
Another possible benefit to this is that the crystals are supposedley more sensitive than powdered AN.
Wal-Mart was just clearancing out their Dry-Gas antifreeze for the season, it is pure methanol. I bought 7 gallons of it for about $20.00.
Frequent Poster
Posts: 200
From: Germany
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 04-17-2001 09:05 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A few days ago I bought a 50Kg bag of Kalk-Ammonsalpeter fertilizer 27-0-0 for 23 DM (10 US$). The stuff is really cheap.
But separating the AN from the lime makes problems.
I poored a lot of fertilizer in hot water and tryed to filter the solution but the lime closed the filter immediately. Using other filtermaterial (old T-shirt) donīt works because the lime passes the filter also.
Now I have an other idea.
I want to make a saturated solution in 90°C water holding the temperature until the lime settles on the bottom and then remove the AN solution.
My question is : How much AN can be dissolved in 0°C water and in 90°C water.
Does anybody have this informations?
wantsomfet
Frequent Poster
Posts: 236
From: EU
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 04-18-2001 07:24 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey Jumala, check your mail. Didn't want to type all in english...
BTW, where did you get it, "Raiffeisen" or OBI ;-)
------------------
for best catfood visit:
catfood.tsx.org
[This message has been edited by wantsomfet (edited April 18, 2001).]
DarkAngel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 592
From: ?
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-18-2001 06:50 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey Jumala
Whe in Holland have the same stuff it`s also cald "kalk Ammonsalpeter" aka "KAS"
On my site in the recipe section i maked a file on how to do the trick,You said that the t-shirt methode doesn`t worked,Your wrong about that,
You need to settle down the dirt(mud) first and than you filter the stuff till the dirt start's to enter your filter at that moment you stop and throw the remaining dirt/water away and wash the t-shirt you must do this a view times after a view times the solution is much more clear and you must fold the t-shirt
(So there more layers working as a filter)
a view times and filter it again,If you do this right you will get a very clear solution after a view times
,There is some kind of binder in the "KAS" that will float on the solution(White foamy substance) if you really can`t get this out with the filter you can scoop it out with a spoon
Cya
------------------
DarkAngel
For explosives and stuff go to Section1 http://www.section1.f2s.com And http://run.to/section1
sendtosection1@hotmail.com
Jumala
Frequent Poster
Posts: 200
From: Germany
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 04-18-2001 08:39 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you for your e-mails!
I bought the fertilizer from a Raiffeisen Market and it is "Made in Holland".
After the hot solution has cooled down, 24 hours later, I found a handfull of very large (like a match) AN crystals in the solution. They were laying on the mud at the bottom. I poored the whole stuff through a sieve and now I have 100g clean AN crystals.
The problem:
Most of the AN and the mud is still in the solution.
My intension is to produce a maximum of the large crystals so that I donīt need to evaporate so much water.
I know that 1 l water at 0°C dissolves 130g KNO3 and 1 l water at 100°C dissolves 2450g KNO3. Iīm certain that the solubility of AN
is higher but it could be a problem to dissolve 3 Kg or more fertilizer in only 1Kg boiling water.
I must find the best way to make a high concentrated solution, keeping the temperature at 80-90° until the mud is on the bottom and I can suck off the clear solution. After this I wait for the crystals.
DarkAngel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 592
From: ?
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-18-2001 08:54 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey man
You need to heat it much longer because when i boil my "crystal clear" AN solution and put it in the fridge it becomes rock hard after + - 2 hours and there is no water left.
I think if i use a 1 liter mesuring cup and fil it 2 times with KAS i will have after a day or 3/4(Every day 1 time 2 cup`s KAS) about a 1.5 coke bottle full of AN
------------------
DarkAngel
For explosives and stuff go to Section1 http://www.section1.f2s.com And http://run.to/section1
sendtosection1@hotmail.com
[This message has been edited by DarkAngel (edited April 18, 2001).]
wantsomfet
Frequent Poster
Posts: 236
From: EU
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 04-19-2001 08:10 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Upon cooling the (nearly) supersaturated solution, one should filter the crystals out every 30 minutes - you won't get that rockhard crystal cake then.
And when evaporating a solution only reduce the volume to a half or so unless you want that cake...
------------------
for best catfood visit:
catfood.tsx.org
Jumala
Frequent Poster
Posts: 200
From: Germany
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 04-26-2001 10:35 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After experimenting some days with a dirty ammonia smelling muddy fertilizer soup I have now the best method to separate the AN from it without evaporating any water.
At first heat up 3-4l water in a large high pot. Not a pan or so, it is to flat.
Then poor in so much (3-5l) kalk-ammonsalpeter and stir untill you think that nothing more can be dissolved.
Donīt use to less fertilizer. Hot water can dissolve a shitload of AN.
After this is done shut off the heatsource and let it stand still for 1 hour.
It isnīt nessesary to hold the solution hot. It takes some more hours before the crystalls start growing.
Now most of the mud has settled down on the bottom. Remove the muddy foam from the solutions surface. (Spoon)
Then use a flexible tube to drain the warm solution in an other large pot at a lower place. (Donīt suck off the mud also)
When the mud is cold some large but dirty AN crystals appear in the reminder solution. Collect them for the next batch.
You can filter this solution through a coffee filter to remove the last fine mud but I think it isnīt nessesary.
Now the size of the crystals you will get depends on how fast the solution cools down.
Fast cooling gives a big bunch of needles.
Slow cooling gives crystals like pencils with a size that is limited only by the diameter of the pot.
Collect the AN pencils out of the solution and let them dry.
It is interesting to see that nearby nothing of mud settles in the AN crystals. The crystals are clear and white.
Give the reminder solution back in the first (cleaned) pot, poor in the dirty AN (out of the mud) and start the proceed again.
DarkAngel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 592
From: ?
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-27-2001 05:00 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I just dreamed about getting AN from KAS and i saw i need to make a correction for my last post.
If i use 2times a 1Liter mesuring cup full of fertillizer a day(2L),and do this for 2 days(4L) i will have more than a 1.5 coke bottle.
(Not 3/4 days like i said in my last post)
How long do you guys need to dry the AN in the oven?
I takes ages for me if the AN is so dry that it won't stick to your hand if i place my hand on it,I use the lowest temp that my oven in my dream haves if i turn it on a higher temp it melts.
Getting AN out of Fertillizer can be a pain in the ass in the beginning but if you have done it a view times you will get it.
------------------
DarkAngel
For explosives and stuff go to Section1 http://www.section1.f2s.com And http://run.to/section1
sendtosection1@hotmail.com
wantsomfet
Frequent Poster
Posts: 236
From: EU
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 04-27-2001 07:50 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, in the beginning i thought "fuck it's impossibe to sepaerate reasonable amounts without too much effort"
I dry the AN at ~ 100 °C in the oven for ca. 1 - 2 hours (depends on how patient i am). It gets really dry, also i have the guarantee that the AN changes its crystal phase, lowering its density.
Befor drying in the oven i crush the AN crystals to a coarse powder - that releases some crystalwater - drying is faster.
First time i set the oven to something like 140 °C (i thought OK below the melting point, no problems...). But after 30 minutes i noticed thick white smoke coming out of the kitchen, the oven was too hot and the AN partially molten, dripped at the bttom of the oven and decomposed there. Very nasty.
------------------
for best catfood visit:
catfood.tsx.org
Jumala
Frequent Poster
Posts: 200
From: Germany
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 04-27-2001 07:26 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Today was harvestday. Yesterday I poored approx. 3l warm solution in a plastic bowl and now 24 hours later the bowl is full of white AN crystals. After separating the crystals from the reminder solution I have approx. 2 Kg AN out of 2l solution.
It is unbelieveable how much AN can be dissolved in water.
I will send you a pic of the bowl.
DarkAngel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 592
From: ?
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-02-2001 09:59 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Damn yesterday i dreamed again and my AN batch whas to much for my big storage container that i normally use i needed to tamp it down and i used a second container to store it in,
I have no scale but it's a view kilo AN i think
------------------
DarkAngel
For explosives and stuff go to Section1 http://www.section1.f2s.com And http://run.to/section1
sendtosection1@hotmail.com
~S*H*A*D*O*W~
New Member
Posts: 3
From:
Registered: MAR 2001
posted 05-02-2001 01:52 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I found some fertiliser today, and it says on the back NPK 38-5-5 this is (i think) 38% AN 5%Phosphates and 5% Pottassium. Could i use this like i would pure AN fertiliser, or do i need something purer to extract the AN?
Cheers.
------------------
10fingers
Frequent Poster
Posts: 411
From: USA
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-02-2001 01:55 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think using methanol works much better than water. I tried water a couple times and I had to leave it in the oven all day to dry it out. With methanol it takes about 1/2 hr. at 200 degrees F.
wantsomfet
Frequent Poster
Posts: 236
From: EU
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 05-05-2001 11:51 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10fingers: Put the AN in a sieve for a day or so, before drying in the oven. You'll be surprised how much water drips off over time...
Anybody knows if the AN will change its crystal phase with methanol used instead of water? I suppose it does, but not in the same extent...
The methanol vapors could be a problem in your kitchen, water is sure a lot safer.
------------------
for best catfood visit:
kangaroooo.cjb.net
10fingers
Frequent Poster
Posts: 411
From: USA
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-05-2001 01:08 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After trying methanol I would never go back to using water.
I use warm methanol and then after the impurities settle I filter it and put it in the freezer. In the morning there is a nice batch of needle like crystals. I pour off the methanol, allow it to air dry to get rid of most of the methanol, and then put it in the oven to completely dry. I assume most people know that methanol fumes are dangerous to inhale and explosive. Best to do this outdoors on a hotplate if possible. But thanks for mentioning it just in case.
Another possible benefit to this is that the crystals are supposedley more sensitive than powdered AN.
Wal-Mart was just clearancing out their Dry-Gas antifreeze for the season, it is pure methanol. I bought 7 gallons of it for about $20.00.