Nitrate sniffing dogs? - Archive File

[megalomania]

BaDSeeD
Frequent Poster
Posts: 80
From: buffalo, ny
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-06-2001 05:41 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have a curiosity question here for anyone who might know something about this. Everyone has heard of the bomb sniffing dogs that they have at airports, and government facilities, I assume anyhow. Well these so called "nitrate sniffing dogs" seem to screw up a lot of peoples plans. I wonder, I have never heard anything on this before, but can these dogs also sniff chlorates? I just thought this might be an interesting bit of information.

------------------
BaDSeeD
Knowledge is the true power, ignorance will bring your demise.



kingspaz
Frequent Poster
Posts: 347
From: UK
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-06-2001 05:46 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i'd expect that the dogs could be trained to sniff chlorates but i think they are only trained to find commonly used explosives (nitrate containing). i think it would take somthing exotic to get past a sniffer dog.


Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-06-2001 07:24 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Something as exotic as AP or HMTD!


c0deblue
Frequent Poster
Posts: 229
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 05-07-2001 01:36 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I live not too far from a canine training center run jointly by US Customs and BATF. Several years ago I got to take a tour of the facility, listen to a presentation and observe some of the training excercises.
On the BATF side, dogs are trained using samples of real explosives, live ammunition, and various unspecified (precursor?) chemicals. The training begins with basic substances and simple rewards, but progresses to more unusual or lesser-known chemicals. By the time a dog "graduates", it is able to distinguish trace amounts of a wide assortment of explosive materials masked with other scents, including perfumes, household cleaners, lubricating compounds, human sweat, etc. They even train using substances sealed in "airtight" plastic bags and shrink-wrap packaging. The handler will even know from the dog's reaction if an unusually strong non-explosive scent is present, and infer a possible attempt to "mask" something else (such cases are singled out for a more thorough search).

I don't know whether the dogs are trained to react to Chlorates specifically, but the collection of samples I saw and the on-premises chem lab were pretty impressive. I think I'd have to assume they train on pretty much everything. Remember that the dog is aiming to please (and looking for a treat), so if it errs at all the result will be a "false positive" rather than the other way around.



BaDSeeD
Frequent Poster
Posts: 80
From: buffalo, ny
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-08-2001 11:49 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hmmm...
Well it was just a question out of curiosity, but thanks everyone for the replies.

I'll try and research it a little more. Maybe i can find some diffinate answers. But i would like to assume that they search for just about everything.

Seems like a lot of smells for a dog to get to know, i just wondered where the gaps were.


------------------
BaDSeeD
Knowledge is the true power, ignorance will bring your demise.



jin
Frequent Poster
Posts: 111
From: uk
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-08-2001 02:08 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i dont know about the dogs but when the police searched my house they used a eletronic sniffer and the first thing they checked where bottles of perfumes aftershaves and spirts.

[jarynth]

Let's put these dogs to the test! The next time you catch a plane, smear trace amounts of a known substance on your clothes. Beware not to carry with you anything suspicious that could be found during a search, so if the dog reacts, it will readily be deemed a false postive. You could also try varying amounts of the same substance, using different containers (strictly devoid of anything illegal inside), etc. to probe the dogs' sensitivity.

[totenkov]

Intentionally impeding my air travel to see what a dog would be attracted to seems to be a rather large inconvenience and waste of time. I have never actually seen dogs at an airport, but my air travel is minimal.

The kind of sniffers utilized today are electronic, most effective for seeking out nitric esters like Nitrophenols and Nitroamines. However I am not exactly sure why you would even care what the dog was attracted to, unless you are looking to blow a jet out of the sky.

[Lewis]

Indeed, the nose of a canine is an amazing thing. Still, I wouldn't expect a dog to be able to actually distinguish a functional group from the substance in question. Instead (and probably more useful to the authorities) they are familiar with a huge assortment of different explosive substances, regardless of their chemical makeup.

I would assume organic peroxides would be among the easiest substances for a dog to smell due to their volatility and distinctive odor to even humans.

On the other side of the coin, advanced technologies may make a reading purely on chemical indication, which, while being perhaps more sensitive to some compounds, may fail completely at detecting a nonstandard explosive like a peroxide.

A more interesting discussion would be good excuses to throw out when such chemicals are detected in trace amounts on your person. A trip to the farm? Cat piss? Recent practice at the range? Heart medication?

While some excuses are chemically plausible, they may only further arouse suspicion as to how you have such knowledge in the first place.

[Alexires]

It would be interesting to walk around the airport terminal with a couple of spray bottles of 5% NG in an ethanol solvent, perhaps some MEKP (diluted) and various other nitro groups, amines, or whatever else the dogs are trained to smell. Start spraying it on seats, other people, luggage, etc.

Otherwise those toilet seat sprays (to disinfect) in bathrooms could have a 5% NG/Ethanol solution injected into it. The soap bottles in the bathrooms, cleaner supplies, anything is a target.

Imagine the BATFE dogs with that? Or those electronic sniffers.

Even the fed goes for a shit and comes back with an ass smelling like nitro and peroxide :D.

[megalomania]

A chemistry professor once advised my class, which was about to break for a holiday, that since we had been working with silver nitrate in the lab to watch out if we fly. Our shoes would have had trace amounts of nitrate possibly detectable by airport security.

I once read that explosive sniffing dogs are able to distinguish about 10,000 different compounds. I didn't know there even were that many different explosives. There certainly are tens of thousands of chemicals which are capable of exploding, but the number of actual commercial or military explosives is a small fraction. Still, to go through all that trouble to train the dogs to detect such a staggering number of chemicals is astounding. Bomb sniffing dogs are, compared to drug sniffing dogs, extremely rare.

[DetaDude]

On a recent airline trip with a stopover in L.A. my wife and myself had to get re-screened when we boarded the next plane for the final leg of our trip. We both went through the TSA bullshit xray with flying colors, only to have my wife pulled aside and subjected to a going over with an electronic sniffer with negative results, when my wife questioned then about this they said "...it was a random check for nitrates and explosives".

All of this made me wonder if the machines can hit on other compounds than nitrates, it would be interesting to test the limitations of these new explosives sniffers. Maybe by just rubbing a test compound (non-toxic) on your clothes or skin before you go to the airport for your next flight. Just points to ponder.

[Secong Nature]

I read, possibly in another thread that it is more often the plasticizers im some explosives that are detected. Going through a scanner with a homemade chlorate/wax explosive sounds like a viable option.