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knowledgehungry
January 20th, 2003, 04:07 PM
About 20grams NG was made using the following procedure: Mix 150 grams H<sub>2</sub>SO<sub>4</sub> with 60 grams AN. Cool mixture to &lt;5* C, slowly add 22 grams glycerol keeping temp below 25* C. I then extracted the NG and washed at least 5 times in H2O/NaHCO2 solutions.
After washing the NG it stayed a dark red color. The color did not change no matter how much it was washed. Do you have any idea what went wrong? My friend would appreciate help with this because he dislikes the idea of having an unstable HE in his house. The HE was detonated without incident but he is not sure that he wants to make some more until this problem is cleared up.

nbk2000
January 20th, 2003, 04:34 PM
Was your acid purple? Some of the drain opener acids are dyed, and that dying may have been carried over into the NG. Try filtering it with a little bit of activated charcoal.

Anthony
January 20th, 2003, 05:48 PM
I had a similar problem using brown/black H2SO4 drain opener. The NG carried a dark red/brown colour no matter what. I dissolved the NG in acetone, filter the solution, evaporated the acetone and the dye remained.

Thanks the activated carbon suggestion, NBK. It'd probably be easiest if done the with the NG in solution.

knowledgehungry
January 20th, 2003, 09:04 PM
Thanks for your help. My friend was using the dark brown drain opener. He will be trying to make some dynamite as a more stable explosive as opposed to APAN. You have cleared up his worries about his NG detonating on him in its dynamite form. He willbe no less careful than usual though.

X-Wulf
January 21st, 2003, 01:21 PM
Not entirely on topic, but relating back to the colourants in the drain cleaner H2SO4. Is it possible to remove the colourant from the acid itself to begin with, or only from the product? I will conduct some experiments using aquarium grade activated carbon later on today, and post the results. Until then, has anyone managed to de-dye drain cleaner?

NERV
January 21st, 2003, 03:37 PM
I have heard from a couple of sources that you can remove the dyes in sulfuric acid by boiling. But I can tell you from my own personal experience that Robic (I think I spelt the name right) brand H2SO4 dyes wont be come out by boiling it. Activated charcoal my do the trick though, as the dye seems to be made up of a bunch of little particles of black shit. Now if only I had some money to go buy some activated charcoal :rolleyes: .

<small>[ January 21, 2003, 02:39 PM: Message edited by: NERV ]</small>

ALENGOSVIG1
January 21st, 2003, 04:17 PM
I use dark red/brown drain cleaner and i've never had any probles with it.

When concentrating my HNO3 with H2SO4 i noticed the dark red/brown colour of the H2SO4 didnt effct the colour of the HNO3/H2SO4 solution. It just remained slightly yellow.

If i add a small amount of HNO3 to my H2SO4 then let it sit for a day, then heat off the HNO3 (or distill it off) the H2SO4 turns almost clear and colourless.

Though i dont ususaly do that becuse as i said, i've never had problems using coloued H2SO4.

<small>[ January 21, 2003, 03:20 PM: Message edited by: ALENGOSVIG1 ]</small>

kingspaz
January 21st, 2003, 05:59 PM
the dye in my drain opener is a kind of dark pink/purple and is easily removed by boiling. the colour is removed just as the acid begins to boil.

VX
January 21st, 2003, 10:03 PM
I assume it is the fact that their is impurities in the acid and hence the final product that are unnerving people. If this is the case then it is worth remembering that boiling the acid may make the acid colourless, but the impurities still remain, just in other forms. As such there is no reason to think that this acid is any safer than the coloured acid.

Anthony
January 22nd, 2003, 11:21 AM
I've not seen anything to suggest that the colourants can be a safety issue. The colouring of the reactants and the product is annoying though. Especially in reactions where you are watching for a change in colour!

X-Wulf
January 22nd, 2003, 01:12 PM
Okay, firstly, the activated charcoal thing did not work :(
I'll try boiling tomorrow though. I'd assume that there are two different kinds of dyes used, one organic the other inorganic. The organic dye is probably the one that disappears upon heating (many organic substances breakdown when exposed to strong heat [e.g. protein based substances denature]), whereas the inorganic dye doesn't.
I managed to get in contact with one of the quality control guys at a the chemical distribution place that supplies our area with various products (including the drain cleaner, and acetone, and various other goodies). He claims that the colourants (and odourants - hence the nasty smell of some drain cleaners) are inert substances and will not affect any reactions, which I suppose is true. Unfortunately, he wouldn't provide any information as to how to remove said substances :(

But yeah, the main reason for wanting to remove (or neutralise) the colourant is to see colour changes. Personally, brown NC doesn't really bother me (and makes it look an awful lot like wood shavings - so if the cops come, I'll just chuck it on the floor and claim I'm a wood carver - hehe)

VX
January 22nd, 2003, 08:33 PM
No thats a good point, I didn't think of that Anthony :o . Fortunatly it's not a problem I have had to think about to much as I can buy lab grade Sulphuric from a lab supply shop, or simply borrow it from Uni.

nbk2000
January 22nd, 2003, 09:17 PM
The activated carbon isn't likely to work on the acid. You'd have to use it for decolorizing the finished product.

X-Wulf
January 24th, 2003, 02:56 PM
Unfortunately heating of the acid sample did not "de-activate" the dye :( Gonna have to live with removing it from the product.

Leadazide
March 11th, 2003, 03:32 PM
Couldn't someone run a dyed drain cleaner solution though a LC-MS and come up with a suggestion of what substances are used for dying the drain cleaner? Knowing what is used for dying would help to deterimen a way to "clean" the drain cleaner.

dave
April 22nd, 2003, 07:04 PM
Since this post is about the color of NG, I was wondering about the color of PGDN and EGDN. I know that NG should be clear to be safe and neutralized. I read somewhere that PGDN should be clear on an MSDS sheet, is this correct? On a post in this forum I read is could be yellow. Should i go with the msds sheet? On the same sheet it said that PGDN decomposes at 121C. But on megalomania's site it said at 30C which is correct? EGDN i read should be yellow.

Microtek
April 23rd, 2003, 07:24 AM
When I make either NG or EGDN, the product is indistinguishable from water in colour. Any colouring is due to impurities. EGDN does not decompose at 30 C; it is in fact quite stable ( chemically ).

jfk
April 24th, 2003, 07:18 AM
Originally posted by Anthony
I had a similar problem using brown/black H2SO4 drain opener. The NG carried a dark red/brown colour no matter what. I dissolved the NG in acetone, filter the solution, evaporated the acetone and the dye remained.

Thanks the activated carbon suggestion, NBK. It'd probably be easiest if done the with the NG in solution.

I'm probably wrong here, but I was sure that dynamite was a stabilised form of trynitrotoluene, (stabilised with any organic matter)

and that gelignite, was the stabilised form of NG, i have a book around somewhere that says that. Could someone put me in the right direction?

knowledgehungry
April 24th, 2003, 08:11 AM
Nope, dynamite is a pretty generic term for commercial explosives, normally they are made with NG and a stabilizer.

Anthony
April 24th, 2003, 02:46 PM
Gelignite or blasting gelatine being NG mixed with NC into a homogeneous mass.

jfk
April 25th, 2003, 05:23 AM
thanks :)

DNA
September 16th, 2003, 05:45 PM
My NG kept being orange/yellow...think that was b/c I dropped in a yellow/orange pH paper...but it didn't get white either, I did use a lot of NH4NO3 some people say my NG cleared up fast by that so it "skipped" the being white stadium...

grendel23
September 16th, 2003, 06:09 PM
I have made NG and EGDN with NH<sub>4</sub>NO<sub>3</sub> and both were a light yellow. I know that a yellow color can indicate free acid, so I washed and neutralized them for days, but the color never left. I even added a small amount of urea to my EGDN, that also had no effect.
I have to conclude that the yellow color when using NH<sub>4</sub>NO<sub>3</sub> is not the result of decomposition. It will however mask any color due to degradation, making it vital that it is washed and neutralized properly.

grendel23
September 22nd, 2003, 05:39 AM
I have successfully decolorized my EGDN with Marineland brand activated carbon. It took a day or so to adsorb the yellow impurity, but its now water clear.

(Time limit had expired to edit my last post, therefore the consecutive posts)