megalomania
June 17th, 2003, 04:13 PM
green beret
Frequent Poster
Posts: 101
From: Australia
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 12-30-2000 06:51 AM
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I think I posted about this a very long time ago, and I'd hate to bring up old topics but this one never got answered, since there are many new people on the forum I thought it couldn't hurt to try again.
I read somewhere that if powdered copper was mixed with AN and water was added it would cause detonation. It also said that the detonation was brought about by the formation of Cupric acid. So basically it is a chemical reaction that causes detonation. To me it seems feasible and worth looking in to. This could be very useful and could also be used to detonate confined ANFO charges. Any comments, suggestions?
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 12-30-2000 09:09 AM
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Surely it would be amazingly unsafe considering how quickly AN absorbs moisture from the air!
The Real
Frequent Poster
Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 12-30-2000 10:53 AM
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I saw a kit at a Discovery Store that was supposed to make a smoke screen. It was a novelty thing for kids, and the amounts I'm sure were very small. I read over the kit and found it to contain powdered zinc and ammonium nitrate, water was added to activate the miniature smoke screen. So maybe what you read is true.
[This message has been edited by The Real (edited December 30, 2000).]
green beret
Frequent Poster
Posts: 101
From: Australia
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 01-01-2001 05:18 AM
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Yes Anthony I do agree that it would be unsafe, but all you would have to do is store the AN and powdered copper in seperate airtight containers and mix it on site (ie; just before you use it) and then the risk of accidental detonation would be minimal. This would be very useful for those who do not have the means to detonate AN but can get it easily. I can already think of a variety of applications for this (assuming it works), such as; depth charges, booby traps, even a molotov coctail style bomb utilising a bottle of water and a glass container of AN and powdered copper.....
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 01-02-2001 10:49 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I doubt it would detonate when you added water.
I think the water allows a reaction to start and forms tetraminecopper (II) nitrate, which is similar to TACC. This is a primary explosive compound, and could increase sensitivity.
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 766
From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 01-02-2001 01:50 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I heard that if you have Cu and NH4NO3 in a beaker and you heat them gradually. It forms a Primary explosive. Depending on what temperature it take to form it and detonate it.
You could always do some thing like seal Cu and NH4NO3 in a Metal pipe(galvanized or maybe use Cu ). Then Put it is something that will profind a steady sourse of heat. It is just an Idea.
Or you could drop and MRE heat or 2 in there. seal it up and get out of there
------------------
A wise man once said:
"It is Better to Die on Your Feet; Than to Live on your Knees "
--Zappata
Agent Blak----OUT!!
green beret
Frequent Poster
Posts: 101
From: Australia
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 01-03-2001 04:12 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hmm... In one of NBK's(I think) files that I downloaded the was a brief note that bronze or copper tools could form some type of primary explosive if they contacted wet AN. I think the explosive was similar to lead azide. I have to find it again.
Lonegunmen
New Member
Posts: 32
From: Germany
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 01-03-2001 08:53 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think he talked about TACC
------------------
Dont call in the artillery - Take it with you !
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 01-03-2001 11:27 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It forms TACN.
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 01-11-2001 04:19 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Copper is oxydised in surface by moisture and air leading to some CuO, Cu2O, Cu(OH)2,CuCO3 (all unsoluble salts)...those can react in slightly acidic medium such as NH4NO3 (moisturised) (pH arround 5).
NH4NO3<==> NH3 + HNO3
The acid react with the copper salts to make Cu(NO3)2 (soluble salt).
The NH3 complexate itself with those copper salts making soluble complexes.... after a lot of equilibrium and reaction you finally get the Cu(NH3)4(NO3)2 as a part of the mix.
Never tried to heat NH4NO3 dry with dry Cu(NO3)2 and melt it with a flamme; it burst into blue-green flammes... (both salts are hygroscopic)?
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
kingspaz
Frequent Poster
Posts: 347
From: UK
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-08-2001 05:26 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
does this mean TACN can be made with ammonium nitrate, copper and water? is TACN water soluble?
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-12-2001 03:40 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes partially!Uncomplete reaction!
Frequent Poster
Posts: 101
From: Australia
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 12-30-2000 06:51 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think I posted about this a very long time ago, and I'd hate to bring up old topics but this one never got answered, since there are many new people on the forum I thought it couldn't hurt to try again.
I read somewhere that if powdered copper was mixed with AN and water was added it would cause detonation. It also said that the detonation was brought about by the formation of Cupric acid. So basically it is a chemical reaction that causes detonation. To me it seems feasible and worth looking in to. This could be very useful and could also be used to detonate confined ANFO charges. Any comments, suggestions?
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 12-30-2000 09:09 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Surely it would be amazingly unsafe considering how quickly AN absorbs moisture from the air!
The Real
Frequent Poster
Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 12-30-2000 10:53 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I saw a kit at a Discovery Store that was supposed to make a smoke screen. It was a novelty thing for kids, and the amounts I'm sure were very small. I read over the kit and found it to contain powdered zinc and ammonium nitrate, water was added to activate the miniature smoke screen. So maybe what you read is true.
[This message has been edited by The Real (edited December 30, 2000).]
green beret
Frequent Poster
Posts: 101
From: Australia
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 01-01-2001 05:18 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes Anthony I do agree that it would be unsafe, but all you would have to do is store the AN and powdered copper in seperate airtight containers and mix it on site (ie; just before you use it) and then the risk of accidental detonation would be minimal. This would be very useful for those who do not have the means to detonate AN but can get it easily. I can already think of a variety of applications for this (assuming it works), such as; depth charges, booby traps, even a molotov coctail style bomb utilising a bottle of water and a glass container of AN and powdered copper.....
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 01-02-2001 10:49 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I doubt it would detonate when you added water.
I think the water allows a reaction to start and forms tetraminecopper (II) nitrate, which is similar to TACC. This is a primary explosive compound, and could increase sensitivity.
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 766
From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 01-02-2001 01:50 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I heard that if you have Cu and NH4NO3 in a beaker and you heat them gradually. It forms a Primary explosive. Depending on what temperature it take to form it and detonate it.
You could always do some thing like seal Cu and NH4NO3 in a Metal pipe(galvanized or maybe use Cu ). Then Put it is something that will profind a steady sourse of heat. It is just an Idea.
Or you could drop and MRE heat or 2 in there. seal it up and get out of there
------------------
A wise man once said:
"It is Better to Die on Your Feet; Than to Live on your Knees "
--Zappata
Agent Blak----OUT!!
green beret
Frequent Poster
Posts: 101
From: Australia
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 01-03-2001 04:12 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hmm... In one of NBK's(I think) files that I downloaded the was a brief note that bronze or copper tools could form some type of primary explosive if they contacted wet AN. I think the explosive was similar to lead azide. I have to find it again.
Lonegunmen
New Member
Posts: 32
From: Germany
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 01-03-2001 08:53 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think he talked about TACC
------------------
Dont call in the artillery - Take it with you !
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 01-03-2001 11:27 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It forms TACN.
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 01-11-2001 04:19 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Copper is oxydised in surface by moisture and air leading to some CuO, Cu2O, Cu(OH)2,CuCO3 (all unsoluble salts)...those can react in slightly acidic medium such as NH4NO3 (moisturised) (pH arround 5).
NH4NO3<==> NH3 + HNO3
The acid react with the copper salts to make Cu(NO3)2 (soluble salt).
The NH3 complexate itself with those copper salts making soluble complexes.... after a lot of equilibrium and reaction you finally get the Cu(NH3)4(NO3)2 as a part of the mix.
Never tried to heat NH4NO3 dry with dry Cu(NO3)2 and melt it with a flamme; it burst into blue-green flammes... (both salts are hygroscopic)?
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
kingspaz
Frequent Poster
Posts: 347
From: UK
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-08-2001 05:26 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
does this mean TACN can be made with ammonium nitrate, copper and water? is TACN water soluble?
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-12-2001 03:40 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes partially!Uncomplete reaction!