megalomania
June 17th, 2003, 04:17 PM
Tim2133
New Member
Posts: 14
From: Odessa, Tx, USA
Registered: APR 2001
posted 04-13-2001 04:10 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I know that 34-0-0 is ammonium nitrate. I went looking for some of that today in three different stores and found only 21-0-0, would this still work since it only has the ammonium nitrate and no phosphorous or potassium? If that doesn't work then where are good places to look for this stuff.
blackadder
Frequent Poster
Posts: 313
From: London
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 04-13-2001 05:42 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I believe you may have purchased a bag of NH4NO3 mixed with chalk, that's probably what is lowering the Nitrogen content. Where do you live? If people are paranoyed about bombs/terrorism, they mix in chalk with the NH4NO3 mixture which renders it too impure for use in explosives, but just fine for fertiliser uses.
fightclub
New Member
Posts: 39
From: none
Registered: APR 2001
posted 04-13-2001 07:24 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ammonium nitrate (NH4NO3) has a Nitrogen content of about 34% (almost 35%). Since the fertilizer system is N-P-K (Nitrogen Phosphorus Kalium) anything that shows other than 34-0-0 is impure or not ammonium nitrate. Ammonium sulfate (NH4)2SO4 has a N% of 21 hence it would be 21-0-0. Potassium nitrate (KNO3) would be like 13-0-38.
zaibatsu
Frequent Poster
Posts: 407
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-13-2001 07:33 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Um, you can get a fertilizer called something like "nitrate of chalk" and that has like chalk and Ammonium nitrate in, and simply dissolve it in water and filter. The AN will dissolve, but the chalk won't, and so will get filtered out. then just heat to evaporate the water, and you are left with AN. Btw, Mr Cool told me this, so credit to him.
NBK was saying that Ammonium Sulphate WILL detonate, and is more powerful than AN, but is harder to detonate. What I want to know is: can we make ASFO, or ASNM? I can get ammonium sulphate easily, but not AN. Also, can we make ASSOY?
(oh, just forgot, could you also make the LE that you can with AN? I think it may be amonpulver or something like that)
------------------
Handguns don't kill people... Half as well as full-auto
Visit me at www.surf.to/eliteforum
[This message has been edited by zaibatsu (edited April 13, 2001).]
fightclub
New Member
Posts: 39
From: none
Registered: APR 2001
posted 04-13-2001 07:51 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ammonium sulfate is not detonable. You can add Nitromethane but all this will do is probably dilute power. Ammonium sulfate is a very poor oxidizer (O.B.: ±0%).
[This message has been edited by fightclub (edited April 13, 2001).]
zaibatsu
Frequent Poster
Posts: 407
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-14-2001 03:32 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh I see, are you saying that an explosive with negative oxygen balance can't detonate? Right, I mean who ever heard of AP detonating Seriously though, I think (please let my memory be right) that NBK was commenting on things they tried to add to AN to stop it detonating, and they found most actually INCREASED the power. I think he then went on to say the even Ammonium Sulphate can detonate, although it is harder to initiate, it has more power. I was wondering what the power of ASNM would be then? Because ANNM is supposed to be quite powerful.
------------------
Handguns don't kill people... Half as well as full-auto
Visit me at www.surf.to/eliteforum
YTS
Frequent Poster
Posts: 61
From:
Registered: MAR 2001
posted 04-15-2001 12:46 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You cant detonate ammoniam sulphate & thats not what nbk said he said. read what he said again
fightclub
New Member
Posts: 39
From: none
Registered: APR 2001
posted 04-15-2001 05:41 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is exactly what I am not saying. I know many compounds with pos., neg., neut. oxygen balances that can detonate. Peroxydacetones can detonate, of course, I know this. The ability for a compound to detonate depends on its chemical structure (chiefly CHNO compounds). Ammonium nitrate is much less stable than ammonium sulfate (compare their heats of formation). What I am simply saying is Ammonium sulfate does not fit into the category of detonating compounds. Ammonium sulfate is already a highly stable compound, it even has a neutral oxygen balance of 0 (not negative), it has nothing to offer to Nitromethane (except to dilute power), you would be better off adding to get it to baking soda and saying it would increase power. In order to get ammonium sulfate to decompose you have to put in a great deal of energy, even then it will not detonate, rather decompose into gases. Saying ammonium sulfate can detonate is like me claiming ammonium phosphate can detonate, too.
Just because something increases power does not mean it will detonate. Ex., if I were to mix AN to Al powder the mixture has increased power. Is the aluminium powder detonable or even explosive(on its own)? No.
zaibatsu
Frequent Poster
Posts: 407
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-15-2001 06:27 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah I know, sorry about that, my bad. What NBK said is that Ammonium Sulphate MIXED with Ammonium Nitrate will detonate, its harder to initiate, but has more power. Sorry about taking up the space guys, my bad.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-15-2001 06:46 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think a small percentage of ammonium sulphate mixed with ammonium nitrate (like a coating on the prills) would decompose when the AN detonated, contributing to the gas volume produced and rasing the power slightly in that way. Just and idea.
If I'm not mistaken, in ANNM, the ammonia in the AN sensitizes the NM. So mixing NM with ammonium phosphate could work, it wouldn't be as powerful as ANNM though.
fightclub
New Member
Posts: 39
From: none
Registered: APR 2001
posted 04-16-2001 01:55 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry, looking closer the O.B. of Ammonium sulfate is a little negative. For that mixture the reaction will go like this:
2 NH4NO3 + (NH4)2SO4 --> 8 H2O + SO2 + 3 N2 + energy
In terms of the gas volume it is a little lower (~920L/kg) than Ammonium nitrate itself (980L/kg).
Ammonium nitrate/sulfate in 60/40 (in the equation above it is 55/45) proportions gives a Vdet: 2.43 km/sec @ 0.9 g/cm^3
Comparing this Ammonium nitrate at a density of 0.9g/cm^3 will have a Vdet ranging from 2.55-2.65 km/sec. So not much improvement on Vdet.
I am not sure about heat of explosion (since
you guys seem pretty sure that in increases "power"). The calculated is 265 cal/g (lower than ammonium nitrate which is 348 cal/g).
And yes, Ammonia will sensitize Nitromethane (so will many other amines), but ammonium nitrate is a neutral salt, it should not have any free ammonia. I think what you are trying to say is ammonium ion (NH4+) will sensitize? I am not sure if the ions will sensitize it, I have doubts. Because then you could simply use any ammonium salt like the chloride.
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-18-2001 07:12 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amines and amonia can sensitise NM!
NH3,CH3-NH2, CH3-CH2-NH2, (CH3)2NH,(CH3)3N, NH2-CH2-CH2-NH2,...
But amines are bases that can react with the weak acid nitronic acid in equilibrium with NM......
CH3-NO2 < === > CH2=NO2H
If the amine is already neutralised by a stronger acid (and HNO3 is way much stronger than CH2=NO2H )nothing will happen!
Now I think the guy confuses NM sensitising AN, and NH4OH (NH3 in H2O) as a sensitiser of NM!!!!!A world of difference!
Anyway mixing ethylene diamine and NM with AN could be a good idea since ED sensitise NM that sensitise AN ....
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
ftsman
Frequent Poster
Posts: 55
From: melb
Registered: APR 2001
posted 04-28-2001 07:58 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
strait up i got mine from an orthopedic surgen. when i got my wisdom teeth out i remember waking up anfd being given one.(Still kinda dazzed from the gas) i only asked 4 one more but they gladly handed it over. plus im willing to bet that they have a crap loasd stocked up in storage so look around when u go in and wait 4 the doc . or break in at night and steal them
JB
New Member
Posts: 27
From: UK
Registered: MAR 2001
posted 06-06-2001 01:40 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry for bringing this topic up again. I have just found a bag of NPK fertilizer in the shed, it is 15-10-10. Here is some more info if it helps:
Nitrogen 15%
phosphorus pentoxide 10% - soluble in ammonium citrate and water 9.4%
Potassium Oxide 10%
Is it possible to extract AN from this, following the methods given in this forum (in a dream of course
This would be quite beneficial if it is AN because there is 25 kilos of the stuff in the shed.
[This message has been edited by JB (edited June 06, 2001).]
Jumala
Frequent Poster
Posts: 200
From: Germany
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 06-06-2001 08:46 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, it may be possible to separate the AN but I wouldn“t waist any time with trying this.
When you cannot get 34-0-0 fertilizer then you should get 27-0-0 fertilizer (chalk-ammon saltpeter) Here it is some work to separate it but it is simple and effective.
Send me your e-mail then you get my improved recipe to separate cleanest AN from it.
frostfire
Frequent Poster
Posts: 266
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-06-2001 09:13 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I had experience with NPK and ammonium sulfate fertilizer, they're pretty much useless but for your garden
Urea on the other hand is very useful, you can concert it to urea nitrate, nitrourea, to treat red nitric acid, desentizer, etc
New Member
Posts: 14
From: Odessa, Tx, USA
Registered: APR 2001
posted 04-13-2001 04:10 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I know that 34-0-0 is ammonium nitrate. I went looking for some of that today in three different stores and found only 21-0-0, would this still work since it only has the ammonium nitrate and no phosphorous or potassium? If that doesn't work then where are good places to look for this stuff.
blackadder
Frequent Poster
Posts: 313
From: London
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 04-13-2001 05:42 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I believe you may have purchased a bag of NH4NO3 mixed with chalk, that's probably what is lowering the Nitrogen content. Where do you live? If people are paranoyed about bombs/terrorism, they mix in chalk with the NH4NO3 mixture which renders it too impure for use in explosives, but just fine for fertiliser uses.
fightclub
New Member
Posts: 39
From: none
Registered: APR 2001
posted 04-13-2001 07:24 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ammonium nitrate (NH4NO3) has a Nitrogen content of about 34% (almost 35%). Since the fertilizer system is N-P-K (Nitrogen Phosphorus Kalium) anything that shows other than 34-0-0 is impure or not ammonium nitrate. Ammonium sulfate (NH4)2SO4 has a N% of 21 hence it would be 21-0-0. Potassium nitrate (KNO3) would be like 13-0-38.
zaibatsu
Frequent Poster
Posts: 407
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-13-2001 07:33 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Um, you can get a fertilizer called something like "nitrate of chalk" and that has like chalk and Ammonium nitrate in, and simply dissolve it in water and filter. The AN will dissolve, but the chalk won't, and so will get filtered out. then just heat to evaporate the water, and you are left with AN. Btw, Mr Cool told me this, so credit to him.
NBK was saying that Ammonium Sulphate WILL detonate, and is more powerful than AN, but is harder to detonate. What I want to know is: can we make ASFO, or ASNM? I can get ammonium sulphate easily, but not AN. Also, can we make ASSOY?
(oh, just forgot, could you also make the LE that you can with AN? I think it may be amonpulver or something like that)
------------------
Handguns don't kill people... Half as well as full-auto
Visit me at www.surf.to/eliteforum
[This message has been edited by zaibatsu (edited April 13, 2001).]
fightclub
New Member
Posts: 39
From: none
Registered: APR 2001
posted 04-13-2001 07:51 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ammonium sulfate is not detonable. You can add Nitromethane but all this will do is probably dilute power. Ammonium sulfate is a very poor oxidizer (O.B.: ±0%).
[This message has been edited by fightclub (edited April 13, 2001).]
zaibatsu
Frequent Poster
Posts: 407
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-14-2001 03:32 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh I see, are you saying that an explosive with negative oxygen balance can't detonate? Right, I mean who ever heard of AP detonating Seriously though, I think (please let my memory be right) that NBK was commenting on things they tried to add to AN to stop it detonating, and they found most actually INCREASED the power. I think he then went on to say the even Ammonium Sulphate can detonate, although it is harder to initiate, it has more power. I was wondering what the power of ASNM would be then? Because ANNM is supposed to be quite powerful.
------------------
Handguns don't kill people... Half as well as full-auto
Visit me at www.surf.to/eliteforum
YTS
Frequent Poster
Posts: 61
From:
Registered: MAR 2001
posted 04-15-2001 12:46 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You cant detonate ammoniam sulphate & thats not what nbk said he said. read what he said again
fightclub
New Member
Posts: 39
From: none
Registered: APR 2001
posted 04-15-2001 05:41 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is exactly what I am not saying. I know many compounds with pos., neg., neut. oxygen balances that can detonate. Peroxydacetones can detonate, of course, I know this. The ability for a compound to detonate depends on its chemical structure (chiefly CHNO compounds). Ammonium nitrate is much less stable than ammonium sulfate (compare their heats of formation). What I am simply saying is Ammonium sulfate does not fit into the category of detonating compounds. Ammonium sulfate is already a highly stable compound, it even has a neutral oxygen balance of 0 (not negative), it has nothing to offer to Nitromethane (except to dilute power), you would be better off adding to get it to baking soda and saying it would increase power. In order to get ammonium sulfate to decompose you have to put in a great deal of energy, even then it will not detonate, rather decompose into gases. Saying ammonium sulfate can detonate is like me claiming ammonium phosphate can detonate, too.
Just because something increases power does not mean it will detonate. Ex., if I were to mix AN to Al powder the mixture has increased power. Is the aluminium powder detonable or even explosive(on its own)? No.
zaibatsu
Frequent Poster
Posts: 407
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-15-2001 06:27 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah I know, sorry about that, my bad. What NBK said is that Ammonium Sulphate MIXED with Ammonium Nitrate will detonate, its harder to initiate, but has more power. Sorry about taking up the space guys, my bad.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-15-2001 06:46 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think a small percentage of ammonium sulphate mixed with ammonium nitrate (like a coating on the prills) would decompose when the AN detonated, contributing to the gas volume produced and rasing the power slightly in that way. Just and idea.
If I'm not mistaken, in ANNM, the ammonia in the AN sensitizes the NM. So mixing NM with ammonium phosphate could work, it wouldn't be as powerful as ANNM though.
fightclub
New Member
Posts: 39
From: none
Registered: APR 2001
posted 04-16-2001 01:55 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry, looking closer the O.B. of Ammonium sulfate is a little negative. For that mixture the reaction will go like this:
2 NH4NO3 + (NH4)2SO4 --> 8 H2O + SO2 + 3 N2 + energy
In terms of the gas volume it is a little lower (~920L/kg) than Ammonium nitrate itself (980L/kg).
Ammonium nitrate/sulfate in 60/40 (in the equation above it is 55/45) proportions gives a Vdet: 2.43 km/sec @ 0.9 g/cm^3
Comparing this Ammonium nitrate at a density of 0.9g/cm^3 will have a Vdet ranging from 2.55-2.65 km/sec. So not much improvement on Vdet.
I am not sure about heat of explosion (since
you guys seem pretty sure that in increases "power"). The calculated is 265 cal/g (lower than ammonium nitrate which is 348 cal/g).
And yes, Ammonia will sensitize Nitromethane (so will many other amines), but ammonium nitrate is a neutral salt, it should not have any free ammonia. I think what you are trying to say is ammonium ion (NH4+) will sensitize? I am not sure if the ions will sensitize it, I have doubts. Because then you could simply use any ammonium salt like the chloride.
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-18-2001 07:12 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amines and amonia can sensitise NM!
NH3,CH3-NH2, CH3-CH2-NH2, (CH3)2NH,(CH3)3N, NH2-CH2-CH2-NH2,...
But amines are bases that can react with the weak acid nitronic acid in equilibrium with NM......
CH3-NO2 < === > CH2=NO2H
If the amine is already neutralised by a stronger acid (and HNO3 is way much stronger than CH2=NO2H )nothing will happen!
Now I think the guy confuses NM sensitising AN, and NH4OH (NH3 in H2O) as a sensitiser of NM!!!!!A world of difference!
Anyway mixing ethylene diamine and NM with AN could be a good idea since ED sensitise NM that sensitise AN ....
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
ftsman
Frequent Poster
Posts: 55
From: melb
Registered: APR 2001
posted 04-28-2001 07:58 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
strait up i got mine from an orthopedic surgen. when i got my wisdom teeth out i remember waking up anfd being given one.(Still kinda dazzed from the gas) i only asked 4 one more but they gladly handed it over. plus im willing to bet that they have a crap loasd stocked up in storage so look around when u go in and wait 4 the doc . or break in at night and steal them
JB
New Member
Posts: 27
From: UK
Registered: MAR 2001
posted 06-06-2001 01:40 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry for bringing this topic up again. I have just found a bag of NPK fertilizer in the shed, it is 15-10-10. Here is some more info if it helps:
Nitrogen 15%
phosphorus pentoxide 10% - soluble in ammonium citrate and water 9.4%
Potassium Oxide 10%
Is it possible to extract AN from this, following the methods given in this forum (in a dream of course
This would be quite beneficial if it is AN because there is 25 kilos of the stuff in the shed.
[This message has been edited by JB (edited June 06, 2001).]
Jumala
Frequent Poster
Posts: 200
From: Germany
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 06-06-2001 08:46 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, it may be possible to separate the AN but I wouldn“t waist any time with trying this.
When you cannot get 34-0-0 fertilizer then you should get 27-0-0 fertilizer (chalk-ammon saltpeter) Here it is some work to separate it but it is simple and effective.
Send me your e-mail then you get my improved recipe to separate cleanest AN from it.
frostfire
Frequent Poster
Posts: 266
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-06-2001 09:13 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I had experience with NPK and ammonium sulfate fertilizer, they're pretty much useless but for your garden
Urea on the other hand is very useful, you can concert it to urea nitrate, nitrourea, to treat red nitric acid, desentizer, etc