megalomania
June 17th, 2003, 08:31 PM
paleothol
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posted 12-14-2000 02:58 PM
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I woke up yesterday and decided to build rocket (not a firework) and I was just wondering if anyone could suggest a good homemade rocket fuel to make it go quite high but not too high????
Also please dont say the one with KNO3 and Sugar cos I can't be arsed making any KNO3 or buying any!!
CragHack
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posted 12-14-2000 03:04 PM
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you could use black powder to make you rocket engine. all you have to do is press the BP into a casing. you have to use a really good casing though, and the BP has to be pressed with ALOT of pressure. a crack in the casing, or an engine that has BP with pockets in it, will result in an explosions of the engine. if you get it to work right, and you nozzle does a good job. you can launch a rocket pretty high. these engines are pretty powerful.
------------------
...Æ
paleothol
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posted 12-14-2000 03:17 PM
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By the way if anybody is wondering why i can't be arsed to buy any KNO3 it's because i live in England and it is very hard to come by!!
Anthony
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From: England
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posted 12-14-2000 04:47 PM
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If you can't be bothered to do KNO3/sucrose then you might as well give up as it's the simplest rocket propeelant around.
KNO3 is not especially hard to come by in England, you just can't expect to see it in the supermarket, look around.
KAD
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posted 12-14-2000 05:55 PM
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you get kno3 from black powder
i think it is 68grams of BP
and liter of water
you boil the bp down and i think you get kno3 once you filter it
but ask some one about this iam not sure to tell you to do it and it will work right
Anthony
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posted 12-14-2000 06:12 PM
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Why the hell would you destroy perfectly good BP for lowly KNO3???
Agent Blak
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posted 12-14-2000 07:39 PM
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No Doubt. If you have black powder why would you destroy it.
------------------
A wise man once said:
"It is Better to Die on Your Feet; Than to Live on your Knees "
--Zappata
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CragHack
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posted 12-14-2000 09:10 PM
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well i bet someone could come up with a reason to extract KNO3 from BP, but when making rocket engines, if yoyu have BP, then use that.
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...Æ
Starforce
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posted 12-14-2000 09:45 PM
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Blackpowder is shit !! Sugar and kno3 are best you must meld it its very easy, or try
Vit.C and Kclo3 its even very very good !
And not the proppelant is important , the contruction is Important !
The Real
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From: Columbus, OH
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posted 12-14-2000 11:41 PM
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To get KNO3 from gun powder just make a runny slurry of distilled water and black powder. Filter out the solids then evaporate the water, you will be left with KNO3.
There is also 1pt Zn to 2pts Flours of Sulfur (by weight). Wet it with 10% by weight water and using a press ram the mixture into a casing at some 5000psi, the mixture will form a one piece proppellant. Ignite with BP. Both ingredients need to be as fine as you can get them, 600mesh being the max particle size.
BoB-
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posted 12-15-2000 03:23 AM
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I have experimented with amatuer model rocketry, the Kno3-Sucrose rocket propellant's performance is amazing.
On one flight a bubble or crack in the grain caused an explosion, which wasnt very powerful, but it did send burning peices of propellant everywhere.
I always used cardboard carpet rolls and home-spun asphalt paper tubes as casing's, raining shrapnel from a high altitude (or the ground) wouldnt be pretty.
THESE LINKS ARE PROVIDED SOLELY FOR YOUR READING ENJOYMENT, I AM NOT STATING THAT THIS HOBBY IS SAFE, NOR THAT YOU SHOULD ATTEMPT ANYTHING MENTIONED IN THESE PAGES!!!
http://www.redstone.army.mil/safety/reg385100/385ch24.html
-the safety guide.
http://huizen.dds.nl/~wfvisser/EN/
-theres a few rockets in there.
http://members.aol.com/ricnakk/
-a very, very good site about Kno3 based propellant's.
http://members.home.net/jelanier/sbpc.html
-A mathematical basis for propellant characterization.
http://www.accutek.com/~moistner/solid.htm
-a huge scientific article about solid propellants.
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/5402/
-a water rocket propulsion page, great site.
[This message has been edited by BoB- (edited December 15, 2000).]
CodeMason
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posted 12-15-2000 03:35 AM
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KNO3 and sugar kinda sucks. Use binded black powder. The professional, high impact engines use dextrin as the binder, but you can just use a little acetone. Wet the black powder and let it dry inside your rocket casing. It should dry nice and rock hard.
Another nice one is potassium chlorate and charcoal, binded with acetone.
DarkAngel
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posted 12-15-2000 02:50 PM
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Guy`s some Bp in fireworks i not good for making rockets so if you take alot of this stuff and get the KNO3 out of it you can make a better mixture of it.
--==DarkAngel==--
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CragHack
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posted 12-15-2000 03:55 PM
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or you could by commerical grade BP...
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Anthony
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posted 12-15-2000 03:57 PM
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KNO3/sucrose is better than BP? BP burns many times faster giving more thrust, there's a reason KNO3/sucrose needs a core to achieve enough thrust to take off, they also need priming with BP.
If KNO3/sucrose rocked so much then it would be used to make commercial motors.
Codemason, if you mean fill the rocket casing with BP sludge and let it set, I've triedthis and it didn't work, the grain shrinks as it dries leaving a gap between the grain and the casing - bang.
SofaKing
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posted 12-15-2000 07:51 PM
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I belive the reason KNO3/Sugar is better is because it produces more gases, making it a better propellant. It's also more safe than using BP.
------------------
"ARE YOUR PAPERS IN ORDER" -- Jack Booted Thug
Anthony
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posted 12-15-2000 08:26 PM
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KNO3/sucrose is called a "low specific impulse propellant" I really can't believe people would call BP "shit" compared to it.
BP is safe, otherwise it wouldn't be sold to kiddies in the form of Estes motors.
KNO3/sucrose motors also go soggy if stored, whereas BP motors have a very long shelf life.
The Real
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posted 12-15-2000 10:01 PM
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I don't think Estes probably uses typical black powder, not the same formula the Goex or Elephant would sell. There's probably something different. I've found bp to shrink up to in the few times I've tried it. What do you do that it doesn't shrink?
Pyrotec sells a book on making rocket proppellants using AN for an oxidizer. The also sell kits, the bodies are made from pvc.
CragHack
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posted 12-15-2000 11:02 PM
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well doesn't NASA (or: didn't NASA) use an AN based propellent in there solid rocket boosters?
------------------
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Cricket
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posted 12-15-2000 11:13 PM
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Yes. I dont know if they still do though. It is the most powerfull shit I have ever heard of.
DarkAngel
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posted 12-16-2000 05:37 AM
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Do you have the recipe?
--==DarkAngel==--
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SofaKing
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posted 12-16-2000 06:22 AM
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The shuttle's rocket boosters use amonium perchlorate, aluminum, and binder. I was going to be fancy and post the formula but the PFP site were it could be found is defunct.
On the subject of BP VS. Sugar/KNO3 you can make much larger rockets with the candy propellant than with BP, witch makes it more viable in my opinion.
------------------
"ARE YOUR PAPERS IN ORDER" -- Jack Booted Thug
truepyro
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posted 12-16-2000 04:12 PM
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I managed to get a copy of the PFP before it went aways so here's the formula for NASA rockets SofaKing was referring to.
Ammonium perchlorate 69.9
Polybutadiene 12.04
Epoxy curing agent 1.96
Aluminum powder 16
Red iron oxide 0.07
10fingers
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posted 12-16-2000 05:01 PM
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According to pyrotek, ammonium nitrate motors are used for some military applications. I was thinking of buying the formula from them but you have to purchase the whole package with the videotape for $69.00. Their price for the fuel/binder is kind of high also, I've been trying to find an alternative. I've done a little experimenting with KNO3/sucrose motors and they seem to work very well. I have not yet tried the method of melting it, like candy and pouring it in the tube. This sounds like a better idea than compacted powder because it would be denser if melted.
Anthony
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posted 12-16-2000 06:08 PM
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Esyes motors are; kno3, charcoal, sulphur dextrin - that's BP!
I'll certainly agree that kno3/sucrose is good for bigger motors from a construction point of view. They're probaly safer too.
The Real
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posted 12-17-2000 02:03 PM
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Didn't happen to say what curing agent was used did it? Or atleast give an equivalence weight? Assuming it's either an anhydride or amine cured system.
truepyro
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posted 12-17-2000 04:31 PM
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Well is would depend on which polybutadiene resin you use. For the hydroxyl-terminated polybutadiene you need an isocynate such as isophorone diisocynate or methylene diphenyl diisocyanate. For the carboxyl terminated polybutadiene I think you need something like diglycidyl ether of bisphenol. I don't know as much about the carboxyl type. Hope this helps.
The Real
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posted 12-18-2000 07:12 PM
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Diglycidyl Ether is it, but there are variations depending on the cure you want. If I remember correclty rocket fuel is a little soft, but that could also be due to the numerous fillers.
vehemt
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posted 12-19-2000 10:54 PM
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Anthony, BP is good for launching a rocket into the sky, but for long burns, KNO3/sucrose provides a better sustained thrust (good for higher altitudes). Reason why it is not used commercially is because it is highly hygroscopic.
KNO3/sucrose does produce more energy, but BP has higher burn rate, thats all.
Mr Cool
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posted 12-23-2000 11:59 AM
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KNO3/sorbitol (or KNO3/sucrose, which is easier to get) motors are better than BP motors in my opinion. The reason they're not used in commercial model rockets is because they absorb moisture. You NEED to melt the components together to get it to work well. Use an oil bath at 200 C for the KNO3/sucrose. Use 65g KNO3 for every 35g sucrose. Cast it into a thick cardboard tube and push a piece of dowell into it while it's still soft to make the core.
Frosty
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posted 01-04-2001 04:00 PM
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Hey I was thinking and could you put flash powder in a rocket or would it just blow up or something?
Anthony
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posted 01-04-2001 04:44 PM
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They do put flash in rockets, it's what makes them go "bang" at the end of their flight.
If you meant a flash rocke motor, then you are insane! It just burns way too fast, that said, whistle mix is kind of an organic flash and that goes in coreless, nozzles rocket motors.
Frosty
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posted 01-04-2001 04:54 PM
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hmmm...I'm insane...but thats why I come here to ask anyhting before I actually do somehting....is there anyway to slow donw the brun rate of flash powder?
MacCleod
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posted 01-07-2001 03:32 AM
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You could try binding it with an epoxy(like the Amm. perchlorate formulas posted above);you'll have to do some exprimenting to get the proper ratios,though.
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[This message has been edited by MacCleod (edited January 07, 2001).]
J
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posted 01-07-2001 07:06 AM
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I remember a post on rec.pyrotechnics by Thomas Perrigrin discussing flash rockets. Apparently, he made a few at a pyro convention! I think he used vaseline to bind them, and he pressed them into the case using a hydrolic press. Of course, all this was done behind a hefty metal blast screen. When they worked, they worked well. When they didn't, you can imagine what happened ;-)
J
Cricket
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posted 01-07-2001 05:23 PM
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I wouldnt mess with flash rockets. Esp. if you are useing a cholrate! It (for me) it also too expensive to waist Potassium Perchlorate and Al powder. About all flash it good for in HE it the detonators (for a primary, in compound caps). I think its fairly storage stable also (much more than peroxides). It might not be a bad idea filling the nose cone with flash though (assuming you have an ejection charge, if not then you better look out where it falls!).
PYRO500
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posted 01-07-2001 05:44 PM
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I have seen too many pages showing how to make flash powder by:
take some al powder and put it in a jar, then add an oxidizer such as potassium or sodium perchlorate and shake vigorously till the ingredients are mixed!
the person who makes flash that way will end up going:
now I add the perchlorate, shake and booooooom.
serously the correct way to mix powders is to put them on a sheet of newspaper, run them together inthe center crease and run that into a jar, just wear a dust mask esp when making flash as al powder caused altshimers (spelling?) and powders will cause you to blow multi colored nasal mucus (gross)
Anthony
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posted 01-07-2001 07:40 PM
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Hehe, I've done the multi-coloured mucas thing! The method of mixing pyro500 suggested is the "diaper" method and is highly recommended.
BoB-
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posted 01-08-2001 01:58 AM
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I've found tissue paper works quite well too with the diaper method.
Anyways, a flash-propellant rocket? no way, you'll never vent the gas's fast enough to prevent an explosion
J
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posted 01-08-2001 02:23 PM
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The flash rockets were unreliable, often exploding. The binder (vaseline) combined with the powder being pressed slowed down the flash to some extent, but I'de never make one of these myself.
I've been blowing black snot from my nose for the past few hours since I've been making charcoal today :-)
J
PYRO500
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posted 01-08-2001 04:43 PM
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don't say I didn't warn ya
Frosty
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posted 01-08-2001 05:23 PM
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Man i can respond finally, I forgot my pass word and had it emailed to me but i didn't come for a while, as for the dumb idea about flash rockets ill just do Kno3 and sugar.
firebreether
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posted 01-26-2001 12:32 PM
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KNO3 sucrose is a low impulse rocket fuel. It burns slow so it needs to have a core. BP rocket fuel though, has a lower sp. impulse than KNO3 sucrose, but it burns faster so it is used as an end burner like in estes engines. I think AN would be much more powerful than KNO3 so check it out, I know I will since I like rockets
Agent Blak
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posted 01-26-2001 01:17 PM
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But AN(NH4NO3) is very hydroscopic; So it may not be the best choice.
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The First Shall Become last"
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Agent Blak-------OUT!!
kingspaz
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posted 01-26-2001 04:49 PM
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well personly i would try to make a combination of black powder and sucrose. maybe the standard sucrose and KNO3 but with black powder in it.
also could starch be used?.....i don't know much about starch but i do know it is made of many glucose molecules joined together so i would expect it to work as a fuel...and it doesn't absorb moisture from the air.
Anthony
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posted 01-26-2001 05:47 PM
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I remember reading about somone who added 20% BP when melting the KNO3/sucrose (the ignition temp of BP is significantly higher than KNO3/sucrose) and apparently it went really well, much better than straight KNO3/sucrose.
COuld be a nice compromise between the symplicity of KNO3/sucrose and the power of burnrate of BP.
the_wingman
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posted 02-03-2001 10:21 AM
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Maybe the following mixture would work nice as a rocket propellant:
KNO3 : K2CO3 : S = 3:2:1
(K2CO3: potassium carbonate)
JB
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posted 06-24-2001 09:24 AM
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Am i able to mix dextrin with NaClO3/sugar to produce a suitable rocket engine? I could also replace the sugar with charcoal and maybe sulphur (i know this is a dangerous mix but if it was in a cast mix it would just burn fiercely without exploding wouldnt it?). Any suggestions? Its just i have SO much weedkiller to play
J
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posted 06-24-2001 10:29 AM
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Even slow burning Chlorate mixtures are very explosive when confined, so be careful if you decide to use xClO3 in rocket fuel. In order for the Dextrin to work as a binder, the mixture must have some water added. Since NaClO3 is very hygroscopic, you'll have a job drying it.
Adding Sulphur is a very bad idea, especially if you're going to make the mixture wet.
I have a method on my site for making rockets with weedkiller (you don't even need to extract the NaClO3). The fuel is tissue paper, works well :-)
J
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Anthony
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posted 06-24-2001 07:05 PM
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I've made NaCLO3/sucrose motors and they can be a bitch, there's a fine line between getting them to fly and them exploding. Chlorate mixtures tend to burn quite slowly but produce very high pressures. The fuel grain has to be very hard to stop the motor exploding and hammering chlorates is not recomended. I found that the motors I made wouildn't fly without a small core, but if the core was longer than an inch the motor would explode have such a limited length meant they didn't go very high. A high I.D without a core might have solved that problem but I couldn't be bothered and moved onto BP which is much more forgiving.
zaibatsu
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posted 06-24-2001 07:12 PM
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I tried J's idea for a NaClO3 rocket with TP (I used kitchen roll) but packed it a little too hard/ had too small a nozzle, I lit it using my fuse, and moved away a small distance, the fuse went through the nozzle ... BANG! Bit of kitchen roll on fire went quite a way, but there were still loads of little white bits everywhere, pretty scary at the time, but very fun, the bang was very loud, and I could hear dogs barking everywhere.
J
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posted 06-25-2001 07:26 AM
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They are difficult to get right. The trick is to build the casing around the fuel grain; if it's rolled up tight then there is no need for any pressing, let alone ramming. A nozzle of around 1/3 of the internal diameter will let it fly without exploding (most of the time ;-)).
New Member
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From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 12-14-2000 02:58 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I woke up yesterday and decided to build rocket (not a firework) and I was just wondering if anyone could suggest a good homemade rocket fuel to make it go quite high but not too high????
Also please dont say the one with KNO3 and Sugar cos I can't be arsed making any KNO3 or buying any!!
CragHack
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posted 12-14-2000 03:04 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
you could use black powder to make you rocket engine. all you have to do is press the BP into a casing. you have to use a really good casing though, and the BP has to be pressed with ALOT of pressure. a crack in the casing, or an engine that has BP with pockets in it, will result in an explosions of the engine. if you get it to work right, and you nozzle does a good job. you can launch a rocket pretty high. these engines are pretty powerful.
------------------
...Æ
paleothol
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posted 12-14-2000 03:17 PM
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By the way if anybody is wondering why i can't be arsed to buy any KNO3 it's because i live in England and it is very hard to come by!!
Anthony
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posted 12-14-2000 04:47 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you can't be bothered to do KNO3/sucrose then you might as well give up as it's the simplest rocket propeelant around.
KNO3 is not especially hard to come by in England, you just can't expect to see it in the supermarket, look around.
KAD
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posted 12-14-2000 05:55 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
you get kno3 from black powder
i think it is 68grams of BP
and liter of water
you boil the bp down and i think you get kno3 once you filter it
but ask some one about this iam not sure to tell you to do it and it will work right
Anthony
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posted 12-14-2000 06:12 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why the hell would you destroy perfectly good BP for lowly KNO3???
Agent Blak
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posted 12-14-2000 07:39 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No Doubt. If you have black powder why would you destroy it.
------------------
A wise man once said:
"It is Better to Die on Your Feet; Than to Live on your Knees "
--Zappata
Agent Blak----OUT!!
CragHack
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From:
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posted 12-14-2000 09:10 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
well i bet someone could come up with a reason to extract KNO3 from BP, but when making rocket engines, if yoyu have BP, then use that.
------------------
...Æ
Starforce
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From:
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posted 12-14-2000 09:45 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Blackpowder is shit !! Sugar and kno3 are best you must meld it its very easy, or try
Vit.C and Kclo3 its even very very good !
And not the proppelant is important , the contruction is Important !
The Real
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Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 12-14-2000 11:41 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To get KNO3 from gun powder just make a runny slurry of distilled water and black powder. Filter out the solids then evaporate the water, you will be left with KNO3.
There is also 1pt Zn to 2pts Flours of Sulfur (by weight). Wet it with 10% by weight water and using a press ram the mixture into a casing at some 5000psi, the mixture will form a one piece proppellant. Ignite with BP. Both ingredients need to be as fine as you can get them, 600mesh being the max particle size.
BoB-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 679
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 12-15-2000 03:23 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have experimented with amatuer model rocketry, the Kno3-Sucrose rocket propellant's performance is amazing.
On one flight a bubble or crack in the grain caused an explosion, which wasnt very powerful, but it did send burning peices of propellant everywhere.
I always used cardboard carpet rolls and home-spun asphalt paper tubes as casing's, raining shrapnel from a high altitude (or the ground) wouldnt be pretty.
THESE LINKS ARE PROVIDED SOLELY FOR YOUR READING ENJOYMENT, I AM NOT STATING THAT THIS HOBBY IS SAFE, NOR THAT YOU SHOULD ATTEMPT ANYTHING MENTIONED IN THESE PAGES!!!
http://www.redstone.army.mil/safety/reg385100/385ch24.html
-the safety guide.
http://huizen.dds.nl/~wfvisser/EN/
-theres a few rockets in there.
http://members.aol.com/ricnakk/
-a very, very good site about Kno3 based propellant's.
http://members.home.net/jelanier/sbpc.html
-A mathematical basis for propellant characterization.
http://www.accutek.com/~moistner/solid.htm
-a huge scientific article about solid propellants.
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/5402/
-a water rocket propulsion page, great site.
[This message has been edited by BoB- (edited December 15, 2000).]
CodeMason
Frequent Poster
Posts: 383
From: Your Nightmares
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 12-15-2000 03:35 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
KNO3 and sugar kinda sucks. Use binded black powder. The professional, high impact engines use dextrin as the binder, but you can just use a little acetone. Wet the black powder and let it dry inside your rocket casing. It should dry nice and rock hard.
Another nice one is potassium chlorate and charcoal, binded with acetone.
DarkAngel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 592
From: ?
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 12-15-2000 02:50 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Guy`s some Bp in fireworks i not good for making rockets so if you take alot of this stuff and get the KNO3 out of it you can make a better mixture of it.
--==DarkAngel==--
------------------
Go to Section1 http://www.section1.f2s.com Alot off Bombs/Explosives and Homemade Weapons!!
CragHack
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From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 12-15-2000 03:55 PM
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or you could by commerical grade BP...
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...Æ
Anthony
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From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 12-15-2000 03:57 PM
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KNO3/sucrose is better than BP? BP burns many times faster giving more thrust, there's a reason KNO3/sucrose needs a core to achieve enough thrust to take off, they also need priming with BP.
If KNO3/sucrose rocked so much then it would be used to make commercial motors.
Codemason, if you mean fill the rocket casing with BP sludge and let it set, I've triedthis and it didn't work, the grain shrinks as it dries leaving a gap between the grain and the casing - bang.
SofaKing
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Posts: 399
From: YEAH RIGHT !!
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 12-15-2000 07:51 PM
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I belive the reason KNO3/Sugar is better is because it produces more gases, making it a better propellant. It's also more safe than using BP.
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"ARE YOUR PAPERS IN ORDER" -- Jack Booted Thug
Anthony
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From: England
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posted 12-15-2000 08:26 PM
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KNO3/sucrose is called a "low specific impulse propellant" I really can't believe people would call BP "shit" compared to it.
BP is safe, otherwise it wouldn't be sold to kiddies in the form of Estes motors.
KNO3/sucrose motors also go soggy if stored, whereas BP motors have a very long shelf life.
The Real
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Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 12-15-2000 10:01 PM
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I don't think Estes probably uses typical black powder, not the same formula the Goex or Elephant would sell. There's probably something different. I've found bp to shrink up to in the few times I've tried it. What do you do that it doesn't shrink?
Pyrotec sells a book on making rocket proppellants using AN for an oxidizer. The also sell kits, the bodies are made from pvc.
CragHack
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Posts: 618
From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 12-15-2000 11:02 PM
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well doesn't NASA (or: didn't NASA) use an AN based propellent in there solid rocket boosters?
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...Æ
Cricket
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Posts: 160
From: USA
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 12-15-2000 11:13 PM
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Yes. I dont know if they still do though. It is the most powerfull shit I have ever heard of.
DarkAngel
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From: ?
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 12-16-2000 05:37 AM
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Do you have the recipe?
--==DarkAngel==--
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Go to Section1 http://www.section1.f2s.com Alot off Bombs/Explosives and Homemade Weapons!!
SofaKing
Frequent Poster
Posts: 399
From: YEAH RIGHT !!
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 12-16-2000 06:22 AM
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The shuttle's rocket boosters use amonium perchlorate, aluminum, and binder. I was going to be fancy and post the formula but the PFP site were it could be found is defunct.
On the subject of BP VS. Sugar/KNO3 you can make much larger rockets with the candy propellant than with BP, witch makes it more viable in my opinion.
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"ARE YOUR PAPERS IN ORDER" -- Jack Booted Thug
truepyro
New Member
Posts: 13
From:
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 12-16-2000 04:12 PM
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I managed to get a copy of the PFP before it went aways so here's the formula for NASA rockets SofaKing was referring to.
Ammonium perchlorate 69.9
Polybutadiene 12.04
Epoxy curing agent 1.96
Aluminum powder 16
Red iron oxide 0.07
10fingers
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Posts: 411
From: USA
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 12-16-2000 05:01 PM
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According to pyrotek, ammonium nitrate motors are used for some military applications. I was thinking of buying the formula from them but you have to purchase the whole package with the videotape for $69.00. Their price for the fuel/binder is kind of high also, I've been trying to find an alternative. I've done a little experimenting with KNO3/sucrose motors and they seem to work very well. I have not yet tried the method of melting it, like candy and pouring it in the tube. This sounds like a better idea than compacted powder because it would be denser if melted.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 12-16-2000 06:08 PM
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Esyes motors are; kno3, charcoal, sulphur dextrin - that's BP!
I'll certainly agree that kno3/sucrose is good for bigger motors from a construction point of view. They're probaly safer too.
The Real
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Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 12-17-2000 02:03 PM
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Didn't happen to say what curing agent was used did it? Or atleast give an equivalence weight? Assuming it's either an anhydride or amine cured system.
truepyro
New Member
Posts: 13
From:
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 12-17-2000 04:31 PM
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Well is would depend on which polybutadiene resin you use. For the hydroxyl-terminated polybutadiene you need an isocynate such as isophorone diisocynate or methylene diphenyl diisocyanate. For the carboxyl terminated polybutadiene I think you need something like diglycidyl ether of bisphenol. I don't know as much about the carboxyl type. Hope this helps.
The Real
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Posts: 136
From: Columbus, OH
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 12-18-2000 07:12 PM
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Diglycidyl Ether is it, but there are variations depending on the cure you want. If I remember correclty rocket fuel is a little soft, but that could also be due to the numerous fillers.
vehemt
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Posts: 580
From: Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 12-19-2000 10:54 PM
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Anthony, BP is good for launching a rocket into the sky, but for long burns, KNO3/sucrose provides a better sustained thrust (good for higher altitudes). Reason why it is not used commercially is because it is highly hygroscopic.
KNO3/sucrose does produce more energy, but BP has higher burn rate, thats all.
Mr Cool
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Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 12-23-2000 11:59 AM
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KNO3/sorbitol (or KNO3/sucrose, which is easier to get) motors are better than BP motors in my opinion. The reason they're not used in commercial model rockets is because they absorb moisture. You NEED to melt the components together to get it to work well. Use an oil bath at 200 C for the KNO3/sucrose. Use 65g KNO3 for every 35g sucrose. Cast it into a thick cardboard tube and push a piece of dowell into it while it's still soft to make the core.
Frosty
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Posts: 28
From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 01-04-2001 04:00 PM
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Hey I was thinking and could you put flash powder in a rocket or would it just blow up or something?
Anthony
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Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 01-04-2001 04:44 PM
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They do put flash in rockets, it's what makes them go "bang" at the end of their flight.
If you meant a flash rocke motor, then you are insane! It just burns way too fast, that said, whistle mix is kind of an organic flash and that goes in coreless, nozzles rocket motors.
Frosty
New Member
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From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 01-04-2001 04:54 PM
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hmmm...I'm insane...but thats why I come here to ask anyhting before I actually do somehting....is there anyway to slow donw the brun rate of flash powder?
MacCleod
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Posts: 217
From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 01-07-2001 03:32 AM
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You could try binding it with an epoxy(like the Amm. perchlorate formulas posted above);you'll have to do some exprimenting to get the proper ratios,though.
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[This message has been edited by MacCleod (edited January 07, 2001).]
J
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Posts: 602
From: United Kingdom
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 01-07-2001 07:06 AM
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I remember a post on rec.pyrotechnics by Thomas Perrigrin discussing flash rockets. Apparently, he made a few at a pyro convention! I think he used vaseline to bind them, and he pressed them into the case using a hydrolic press. Of course, all this was done behind a hefty metal blast screen. When they worked, they worked well. When they didn't, you can imagine what happened ;-)
J
Cricket
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Posts: 160
From: USA
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 01-07-2001 05:23 PM
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I wouldnt mess with flash rockets. Esp. if you are useing a cholrate! It (for me) it also too expensive to waist Potassium Perchlorate and Al powder. About all flash it good for in HE it the detonators (for a primary, in compound caps). I think its fairly storage stable also (much more than peroxides). It might not be a bad idea filling the nose cone with flash though (assuming you have an ejection charge, if not then you better look out where it falls!).
PYRO500
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Posts: 1465
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 01-07-2001 05:44 PM
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I have seen too many pages showing how to make flash powder by:
take some al powder and put it in a jar, then add an oxidizer such as potassium or sodium perchlorate and shake vigorously till the ingredients are mixed!
the person who makes flash that way will end up going:
now I add the perchlorate, shake and booooooom.
serously the correct way to mix powders is to put them on a sheet of newspaper, run them together inthe center crease and run that into a jar, just wear a dust mask esp when making flash as al powder caused altshimers (spelling?) and powders will cause you to blow multi colored nasal mucus (gross)
Anthony
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Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 01-07-2001 07:40 PM
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Hehe, I've done the multi-coloured mucas thing! The method of mixing pyro500 suggested is the "diaper" method and is highly recommended.
BoB-
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Posts: 679
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 01-08-2001 01:58 AM
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I've found tissue paper works quite well too with the diaper method.
Anyways, a flash-propellant rocket? no way, you'll never vent the gas's fast enough to prevent an explosion
J
Moderator
Posts: 602
From: United Kingdom
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 01-08-2001 02:23 PM
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The flash rockets were unreliable, often exploding. The binder (vaseline) combined with the powder being pressed slowed down the flash to some extent, but I'de never make one of these myself.
I've been blowing black snot from my nose for the past few hours since I've been making charcoal today :-)
J
PYRO500
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From: somewhere in florida
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posted 01-08-2001 04:43 PM
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don't say I didn't warn ya
Frosty
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Posts: 28
From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 01-08-2001 05:23 PM
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Man i can respond finally, I forgot my pass word and had it emailed to me but i didn't come for a while, as for the dumb idea about flash rockets ill just do Kno3 and sugar.
firebreether
Frequent Poster
Posts: 110
From:
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 01-26-2001 12:32 PM
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KNO3 sucrose is a low impulse rocket fuel. It burns slow so it needs to have a core. BP rocket fuel though, has a lower sp. impulse than KNO3 sucrose, but it burns faster so it is used as an end burner like in estes engines. I think AN would be much more powerful than KNO3 so check it out, I know I will since I like rockets
Agent Blak
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From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 01-26-2001 01:17 PM
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But AN(NH4NO3) is very hydroscopic; So it may not be the best choice.
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kingspaz
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Posts: 347
From: UK
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 01-26-2001 04:49 PM
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well personly i would try to make a combination of black powder and sucrose. maybe the standard sucrose and KNO3 but with black powder in it.
also could starch be used?.....i don't know much about starch but i do know it is made of many glucose molecules joined together so i would expect it to work as a fuel...and it doesn't absorb moisture from the air.
Anthony
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Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 01-26-2001 05:47 PM
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I remember reading about somone who added 20% BP when melting the KNO3/sucrose (the ignition temp of BP is significantly higher than KNO3/sucrose) and apparently it went really well, much better than straight KNO3/sucrose.
COuld be a nice compromise between the symplicity of KNO3/sucrose and the power of burnrate of BP.
the_wingman
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Posts: 49
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 02-03-2001 10:21 AM
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Maybe the following mixture would work nice as a rocket propellant:
KNO3 : K2CO3 : S = 3:2:1
(K2CO3: potassium carbonate)
JB
New Member
Posts: 27
From: UK
Registered: MAR 2001
posted 06-24-2001 09:24 AM
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Am i able to mix dextrin with NaClO3/sugar to produce a suitable rocket engine? I could also replace the sugar with charcoal and maybe sulphur (i know this is a dangerous mix but if it was in a cast mix it would just burn fiercely without exploding wouldnt it?). Any suggestions? Its just i have SO much weedkiller to play
J
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Posts: 602
From: United Kingdom
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-24-2001 10:29 AM
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Even slow burning Chlorate mixtures are very explosive when confined, so be careful if you decide to use xClO3 in rocket fuel. In order for the Dextrin to work as a binder, the mixture must have some water added. Since NaClO3 is very hygroscopic, you'll have a job drying it.
Adding Sulphur is a very bad idea, especially if you're going to make the mixture wet.
I have a method on my site for making rockets with weedkiller (you don't even need to extract the NaClO3). The fuel is tissue paper, works well :-)
J
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Anthony
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posted 06-24-2001 07:05 PM
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I've made NaCLO3/sucrose motors and they can be a bitch, there's a fine line between getting them to fly and them exploding. Chlorate mixtures tend to burn quite slowly but produce very high pressures. The fuel grain has to be very hard to stop the motor exploding and hammering chlorates is not recomended. I found that the motors I made wouildn't fly without a small core, but if the core was longer than an inch the motor would explode have such a limited length meant they didn't go very high. A high I.D without a core might have solved that problem but I couldn't be bothered and moved onto BP which is much more forgiving.
zaibatsu
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Posts: 407
From: England
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posted 06-24-2001 07:12 PM
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I tried J's idea for a NaClO3 rocket with TP (I used kitchen roll) but packed it a little too hard/ had too small a nozzle, I lit it using my fuse, and moved away a small distance, the fuse went through the nozzle ... BANG! Bit of kitchen roll on fire went quite a way, but there were still loads of little white bits everywhere, pretty scary at the time, but very fun, the bang was very loud, and I could hear dogs barking everywhere.
J
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From: United Kingdom
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posted 06-25-2001 07:26 AM
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They are difficult to get right. The trick is to build the casing around the fuel grain; if it's rolled up tight then there is no need for any pressing, let alone ramming. A nozzle of around 1/3 of the internal diameter will let it fly without exploding (most of the time ;-)).