megalomania
June 17th, 2003, 08:37 PM
Hvoroba
New Member
Posts: 27
From: Israel
Registered: APR 2001
posted 05-18-2001 05:13 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I purchased this at the supermarket as "solid bleach" tablets. The reason I bought it was the "Warning - Flammable, Oxidizer" label on the package. The tablets contain 73.25% Sodium Dichloroisocyanurate. The other components are unknown.
Due to the lack of elemental laboratory apparattus at my vicinity, I was forced to rely solely on crude and unexact experiments with common household materials. For example, I tried lighting it with a lighter. After several failed attempts, I finally suceeded, but only after melting the material with the lighter. It only ignited after melting, and burned in a steady, very slow rate, without producing flame, producing a thick white smoke, which was easy to breath, however which gave me slight short-term effects similar to nicotine.
I'm only guessing when I say that, but I believe they use a fire retardent agent to prevent possible accidents and misuse. Perhaps when I melted it, the agent decomposed, or maybe seperated from the SD, allowing it to ignite. If anyone has any information about Sodium Dichloroisocyanurate, or the commercial product "solid bleach" tablets, please reply. Thank you.
[This message has been edited by Hvoroba (edited May 18, 2001).]
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-18-2001 08:20 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why the hell do you want this to burn strongly?? Strong oxydiser means only it is succeptible of oxydising colors, bacterias...because of its chlorine content-thus no active oxygen here!!!!
Dichloroisocyanurate of Na is an hybrid salt between the trisodium salt of isocyanuric acid and the chloride of the triacid!
Cyanic acid monomer is HO-CN and this easily trimerise to acid cyanuric ring
3HO-CN --> (-C(OH)=N-)3
This cyanuric acid can make salts like sodium cyanurate trisodium salt
(-C(OH)=N-)3 + 3 NaOH --> (-C(ONa)=N-)3 + 3H2O
It also isomerise to an urea form wich is also acidic the isocyanuric acid!
(-C(OH)=N-)3 --> (-CO-NH-)3
(-CO-NH-)3 + 3 NaOH --> (-CO-NNa-)3 + 3H2O
(-CO-NH-)3 + 3Cl2 --> (-CO-NCl-)3 + 3HCl
This last form is the trichloroisocyanurate that contains active Cl and release it slowly by hydrolysis upon contact with water reason why it is used in water treatment!
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
CodeMason
Frequent Poster
Posts: 383
From: Your Nightmares
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 05-18-2001 08:52 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dimer and trimer chloroisocyanuric acid salts are used in bleaching and pool care, because it has more favourable characteristics than the hypochlorites. However, it's pretty much useless in the pyro/explosives field. The only thing that comes to mind that we could use it for is to mix with gasoline or glycol (break fluid) or other high energy compounds to cause spontaneous ignition. So unless this is what you wanted, or you're keen on pools, I'm sorry to say that you've wasted your money.
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 05-19-2001 01:49 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cyanuric ring... aren't there nitrated HE's based on this?
Cipolla
New Member
Posts: 37
From:
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 05-19-2001 07:24 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cyanuric ring yes, isocyanuric ring maybe. I haven't read or heard of anything like this yet, but you may develope some new high explosives (we all try to). I think mixing this sinister thing whose name I forgot writing this message with Sodiumnitrates or Nitrites may cause a substituation producing a dinitrate of this stuff and Sodium chloride.....but maybe not, I don't know, I'm not Megalomania.....
Hvoroba
New Member
Posts: 27
From: Israel
Registered: APR 2001
posted 05-20-2001 05:56 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, allright then. I can always use it to clean my bathroom
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-21-2001 04:23 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cyanuric ring....yes remeber the cyanuric triazide? Made by mixing cyanuric trichloride with sodium azide!
(-CCl=N-)3 + 3NaN3 --> (-C(N3)=N-)3 + 3NaCl
I'm also planning to follow an old receipe to make trinitrocyanuric ring( a not wel studied explosive that has a perfect OB)!
(-CBr=N-)3 + 3AgNO2 -(DMF/DMSO)-> (-C(NO2)=N-)3 + 3 AgBr
Note that
(-C(NO2)=N-)3 --> 3CO2 + 3N2!
Unfortunately those two process use the toxic halocyanide (Cl-CN and Br-CN) that have to be trimerised before use!Right now I have everything I need to perform that experiment but I need, preparation, time (and my mother out) to try it safely!
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-21-2001 04:35 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ah yes I forgot to tell this I will also try to mix dichloroisocyanurate of Na with AgNO2...to see what happens (only a gram!!!).
Usually in dinitrourea synthesis the NH catch between two C=O groups is too acidic to accept a NO2!
So what is easy to do with
CH3-NH-CO-NH-CH3 and with NH2-CO-NH2 is not easy with (-NH-CO-)3 since here all the NH are between two C=O!
CH3-NH-CO-NH-CH3 + 2HNO3 conc + H2SO4 conc -(-10C)-> CH3-N(NO2)-CO-N(NO2)-CH3
NH2-CO-NH2 + 2HNO3 + H2SO4 -(-10C)-> O2N-NH-CO-NH-NO2
So maybe that this new way of reaction might provide good results who knows?
(-NCl-CO-NCl-CO-NNa-CO-) + 2 AgNO2 -(?)-> 2AgCl + (-N(NO2)-CO-N(NO2)-CO-NNa-CO-)
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
CodeMason
Frequent Poster
Posts: 383
From: Your Nightmares
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 05-21-2001 06:15 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Where do you get your sodium azide? I've been too scared to make it since I want to keep the hell away from hydrazine.
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-22-2001 04:43 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have never written that I have NaN3, I was just explaining the wel known process to go to the Cyanuric triazide!But indeed I have some (200g) from an organic lab where I worked in the past! Anyway I have all the reactions to make it from hydrazine and related urea's that I found in old chem books at the university!
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
Hvoroba
New Member
Posts: 27
From: Israel
Registered: APR 2001
posted 06-05-2001 07:00 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry for the very dumb question, but since I'm not a chemist, would you please care to explain what is the gas generated when Sodium Dichloroisocyanurate reacts with 30% HCl solution? I'm suspecting its chlorine (only a guess).
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-08-2001 07:12 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Correct
dichloroisocyanurate of Na is the chloride of an acid!
(-CO-NCl-CO-NCl-CO-NNa-) + 3HCl (dry)--> (-CO-NH-)3 + NaCl + 2Cl2
Cl2 + H2O --> HCl + HOCl
(-CO-NCl-CO-NCl-CO-NNa-) + 2H2O --> (-CO-NH-CO-NH-CO-NNa-) + 2HOCl (hypochloric acid)
HOCl and Cl2 are bactericids!
New Member
Posts: 27
From: Israel
Registered: APR 2001
posted 05-18-2001 05:13 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I purchased this at the supermarket as "solid bleach" tablets. The reason I bought it was the "Warning - Flammable, Oxidizer" label on the package. The tablets contain 73.25% Sodium Dichloroisocyanurate. The other components are unknown.
Due to the lack of elemental laboratory apparattus at my vicinity, I was forced to rely solely on crude and unexact experiments with common household materials. For example, I tried lighting it with a lighter. After several failed attempts, I finally suceeded, but only after melting the material with the lighter. It only ignited after melting, and burned in a steady, very slow rate, without producing flame, producing a thick white smoke, which was easy to breath, however which gave me slight short-term effects similar to nicotine.
I'm only guessing when I say that, but I believe they use a fire retardent agent to prevent possible accidents and misuse. Perhaps when I melted it, the agent decomposed, or maybe seperated from the SD, allowing it to ignite. If anyone has any information about Sodium Dichloroisocyanurate, or the commercial product "solid bleach" tablets, please reply. Thank you.
[This message has been edited by Hvoroba (edited May 18, 2001).]
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-18-2001 08:20 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why the hell do you want this to burn strongly?? Strong oxydiser means only it is succeptible of oxydising colors, bacterias...because of its chlorine content-thus no active oxygen here!!!!
Dichloroisocyanurate of Na is an hybrid salt between the trisodium salt of isocyanuric acid and the chloride of the triacid!
Cyanic acid monomer is HO-CN and this easily trimerise to acid cyanuric ring
3HO-CN --> (-C(OH)=N-)3
This cyanuric acid can make salts like sodium cyanurate trisodium salt
(-C(OH)=N-)3 + 3 NaOH --> (-C(ONa)=N-)3 + 3H2O
It also isomerise to an urea form wich is also acidic the isocyanuric acid!
(-C(OH)=N-)3 --> (-CO-NH-)3
(-CO-NH-)3 + 3 NaOH --> (-CO-NNa-)3 + 3H2O
(-CO-NH-)3 + 3Cl2 --> (-CO-NCl-)3 + 3HCl
This last form is the trichloroisocyanurate that contains active Cl and release it slowly by hydrolysis upon contact with water reason why it is used in water treatment!
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
CodeMason
Frequent Poster
Posts: 383
From: Your Nightmares
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 05-18-2001 08:52 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dimer and trimer chloroisocyanuric acid salts are used in bleaching and pool care, because it has more favourable characteristics than the hypochlorites. However, it's pretty much useless in the pyro/explosives field. The only thing that comes to mind that we could use it for is to mix with gasoline or glycol (break fluid) or other high energy compounds to cause spontaneous ignition. So unless this is what you wanted, or you're keen on pools, I'm sorry to say that you've wasted your money.
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 05-19-2001 01:49 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cyanuric ring... aren't there nitrated HE's based on this?
Cipolla
New Member
Posts: 37
From:
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 05-19-2001 07:24 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cyanuric ring yes, isocyanuric ring maybe. I haven't read or heard of anything like this yet, but you may develope some new high explosives (we all try to). I think mixing this sinister thing whose name I forgot writing this message with Sodiumnitrates or Nitrites may cause a substituation producing a dinitrate of this stuff and Sodium chloride.....but maybe not, I don't know, I'm not Megalomania.....
Hvoroba
New Member
Posts: 27
From: Israel
Registered: APR 2001
posted 05-20-2001 05:56 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh, allright then. I can always use it to clean my bathroom
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-21-2001 04:23 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cyanuric ring....yes remeber the cyanuric triazide? Made by mixing cyanuric trichloride with sodium azide!
(-CCl=N-)3 + 3NaN3 --> (-C(N3)=N-)3 + 3NaCl
I'm also planning to follow an old receipe to make trinitrocyanuric ring( a not wel studied explosive that has a perfect OB)!
(-CBr=N-)3 + 3AgNO2 -(DMF/DMSO)-> (-C(NO2)=N-)3 + 3 AgBr
Note that
(-C(NO2)=N-)3 --> 3CO2 + 3N2!
Unfortunately those two process use the toxic halocyanide (Cl-CN and Br-CN) that have to be trimerised before use!Right now I have everything I need to perform that experiment but I need, preparation, time (and my mother out) to try it safely!
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-21-2001 04:35 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ah yes I forgot to tell this I will also try to mix dichloroisocyanurate of Na with AgNO2...to see what happens (only a gram!!!).
Usually in dinitrourea synthesis the NH catch between two C=O groups is too acidic to accept a NO2!
So what is easy to do with
CH3-NH-CO-NH-CH3 and with NH2-CO-NH2 is not easy with (-NH-CO-)3 since here all the NH are between two C=O!
CH3-NH-CO-NH-CH3 + 2HNO3 conc + H2SO4 conc -(-10C)-> CH3-N(NO2)-CO-N(NO2)-CH3
NH2-CO-NH2 + 2HNO3 + H2SO4 -(-10C)-> O2N-NH-CO-NH-NO2
So maybe that this new way of reaction might provide good results who knows?
(-NCl-CO-NCl-CO-NNa-CO-) + 2 AgNO2 -(?)-> 2AgCl + (-N(NO2)-CO-N(NO2)-CO-NNa-CO-)
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
CodeMason
Frequent Poster
Posts: 383
From: Your Nightmares
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 05-21-2001 06:15 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Where do you get your sodium azide? I've been too scared to make it since I want to keep the hell away from hydrazine.
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-22-2001 04:43 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have never written that I have NaN3, I was just explaining the wel known process to go to the Cyanuric triazide!But indeed I have some (200g) from an organic lab where I worked in the past! Anyway I have all the reactions to make it from hydrazine and related urea's that I found in old chem books at the university!
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
Hvoroba
New Member
Posts: 27
From: Israel
Registered: APR 2001
posted 06-05-2001 07:00 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry for the very dumb question, but since I'm not a chemist, would you please care to explain what is the gas generated when Sodium Dichloroisocyanurate reacts with 30% HCl solution? I'm suspecting its chlorine (only a guess).
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-08-2001 07:12 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Correct
dichloroisocyanurate of Na is the chloride of an acid!
(-CO-NCl-CO-NCl-CO-NNa-) + 3HCl (dry)--> (-CO-NH-)3 + NaCl + 2Cl2
Cl2 + H2O --> HCl + HOCl
(-CO-NCl-CO-NCl-CO-NNa-) + 2H2O --> (-CO-NH-CO-NH-CO-NNa-) + 2HOCl (hypochloric acid)
HOCl and Cl2 are bactericids!