megalomania
June 17th, 2003, 08:48 PM
deezs
Frequent Poster
Posts: 113
From: Hungary
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 06-26-2001 02:00 PM
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Do you know the Berger-mixture? I have found the recipe in a reliable lecture note, which gives a good summary of explosives, chemical weapons and drugs.
It is used to make white smoke, and contains 25w% Zn, 25w% ZnO and 50w% CCl4 (yes, tetrachloromethane). It can be ignited with a match, and the following reactions start:
Zn + ZnO + CCl4 = 2 ZnCl2 + CO
2 Zn + CCl4 = 2 ZnCl2 + C
In the reaction hygroscopic ZnCl2 is produced, and this forms a non toxic white fog with the humidity of air. But this sould be used only in open area, because in a minor reaction phosgene (Cl2CO) is formed.
This is very nice, but it didn't work! (I tried to ignite it with BP too, but it was totaly inert, it just coloured the flames green) I know the properties of CCl4, that it is used in fire-extinguishers, and it can't be lighted with a match, but I'm sure that the recipe is correct, and CCl4 is not a miswrite. I think the author has forgotten something. Does somebody know what?
Rhadon
Frequent Poster
Posts: 95
From: Germany
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 06-26-2001 02:20 PM
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Use a mixture of fine Fe powder and KMnO4 to ignite it. It will produce black smoke.
be careful with the phosgene, the concentration in the air can be so high that it is dangerous. If you smell it, it's probably too late (it smells sweet in small concentrations, like rotten hay in higher concentrations).
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-27-2001 04:22 AM
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Make this in the open CO and Cl2CO are both very toxic and non smelling gases!
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
Rhadon
Frequent Poster
Posts: 95
From: Germany
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 06-27-2001 10:28 AM
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CO doesnt's smell, but COCl2 does. Though, the concentrations which are required to let you smell it are toxic, that's right. And it doesn't mean that the phosgene is non-toxic if the concentration is below this limit.
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 766
From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-27-2001 02:31 PM
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CCl4?
is that Carbon Tetra-Chloride?
Isn't phosgene made by heating the above compound?
------------------
A wise man once said:
"...There Will Be No
Stand Off At High Noon
... Shoot'em In The Back
And, Shoot'em In The Dark"
Agent Blak-------OUT!!
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-28-2001 05:19 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By oxydation of halocomponds you often have some and CCl4 is one of the best in that regard...
CCl4 + 1/2O2 -strong heat-> Cl2C=O + Cl2 + Cl2O + ClO +...
CCl4 on its own is not so good because it creates the same kinds of troubles than chloroform... narcosis and liver deficience.
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
deezs
Frequent Poster
Posts: 113
From: Hungary
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 06-29-2001 03:08 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry! I have to apologize for my stupidness...
There is no problem with Berger's mixture. I was a bullshit that day, when I tried to make this experiment (I have sucked with other things too). I made the ZnO by the following method: (I made 3 great mistakes in 1 procedure!)
I have dissolved Zn in HCl, and added K2CO3 to the solution. White [Zn(OH)2 . ZnCO3] precipitated. I filtered it out, and washed it with some water. But not enough, so it was polluted (I dont know better word) with KCl. I was a fuckin' idiot, when I haven't tested the water with AgNO3 solution...
I heated this stuff to get ZnO, and of course I got the mixture of ZnO and KCl. That was when I should notice, that the colour of ZnO was not yellow enough...
Than I weighed the product. It was more, than I expected. My third fault was, when I blamed the difference on my scales. (it is a real shit, but I have no money to buy better)
Next day I found my faults, and I corrected it.
The mixture works well, it can be ignited with a sparkler. - this is not a real ignition, it produces smoke, till the sparkler burns, and generates enough heat to the reaction.
The "fog" was thick and white. (a bit greyish because of the C, what is a byproduct of the reaction)
I can offer tis for everyone as a demonstration experiement. (you know the situation, when somebody visits you, and ask you to show an experiement, and you have no idea in that moment.)
By the way: If you have any interesting chemical experiement, which is not really explosive, just interesting, for example: Beluszov-Zabotinszkij reaction, please send it!
deezs
Frequent Poster
Posts: 113
From: Hungary
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 06-29-2001 03:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Something else about the mixture:
Some part of the ZnO can be substituted with MgO (in my book aren't any ratios), and the CCl4 with other chlorocarbons (for example hexachlor ethane).
Argh! I fuck so much time to translate the hungarian names of the chemicals to english.
Have you got a book (the simpler the better) about the spelling of the chemicals?
Frequent Poster
Posts: 113
From: Hungary
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 06-26-2001 02:00 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you know the Berger-mixture? I have found the recipe in a reliable lecture note, which gives a good summary of explosives, chemical weapons and drugs.
It is used to make white smoke, and contains 25w% Zn, 25w% ZnO and 50w% CCl4 (yes, tetrachloromethane). It can be ignited with a match, and the following reactions start:
Zn + ZnO + CCl4 = 2 ZnCl2 + CO
2 Zn + CCl4 = 2 ZnCl2 + C
In the reaction hygroscopic ZnCl2 is produced, and this forms a non toxic white fog with the humidity of air. But this sould be used only in open area, because in a minor reaction phosgene (Cl2CO) is formed.
This is very nice, but it didn't work! (I tried to ignite it with BP too, but it was totaly inert, it just coloured the flames green) I know the properties of CCl4, that it is used in fire-extinguishers, and it can't be lighted with a match, but I'm sure that the recipe is correct, and CCl4 is not a miswrite. I think the author has forgotten something. Does somebody know what?
Rhadon
Frequent Poster
Posts: 95
From: Germany
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 06-26-2001 02:20 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Use a mixture of fine Fe powder and KMnO4 to ignite it. It will produce black smoke.
be careful with the phosgene, the concentration in the air can be so high that it is dangerous. If you smell it, it's probably too late (it smells sweet in small concentrations, like rotten hay in higher concentrations).
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-27-2001 04:22 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Make this in the open CO and Cl2CO are both very toxic and non smelling gases!
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
Rhadon
Frequent Poster
Posts: 95
From: Germany
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 06-27-2001 10:28 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CO doesnt's smell, but COCl2 does. Though, the concentrations which are required to let you smell it are toxic, that's right. And it doesn't mean that the phosgene is non-toxic if the concentration is below this limit.
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 766
From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-27-2001 02:31 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CCl4?
is that Carbon Tetra-Chloride?
Isn't phosgene made by heating the above compound?
------------------
A wise man once said:
"...There Will Be No
Stand Off At High Noon
... Shoot'em In The Back
And, Shoot'em In The Dark"
Agent Blak-------OUT!!
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-28-2001 05:19 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By oxydation of halocomponds you often have some and CCl4 is one of the best in that regard...
CCl4 + 1/2O2 -strong heat-> Cl2C=O + Cl2 + Cl2O + ClO +...
CCl4 on its own is not so good because it creates the same kinds of troubles than chloroform... narcosis and liver deficience.
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
deezs
Frequent Poster
Posts: 113
From: Hungary
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 06-29-2001 03:08 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry! I have to apologize for my stupidness...
There is no problem with Berger's mixture. I was a bullshit that day, when I tried to make this experiment (I have sucked with other things too). I made the ZnO by the following method: (I made 3 great mistakes in 1 procedure!)
I have dissolved Zn in HCl, and added K2CO3 to the solution. White [Zn(OH)2 . ZnCO3] precipitated. I filtered it out, and washed it with some water. But not enough, so it was polluted (I dont know better word) with KCl. I was a fuckin' idiot, when I haven't tested the water with AgNO3 solution...
I heated this stuff to get ZnO, and of course I got the mixture of ZnO and KCl. That was when I should notice, that the colour of ZnO was not yellow enough...
Than I weighed the product. It was more, than I expected. My third fault was, when I blamed the difference on my scales. (it is a real shit, but I have no money to buy better)
Next day I found my faults, and I corrected it.
The mixture works well, it can be ignited with a sparkler. - this is not a real ignition, it produces smoke, till the sparkler burns, and generates enough heat to the reaction.
The "fog" was thick and white. (a bit greyish because of the C, what is a byproduct of the reaction)
I can offer tis for everyone as a demonstration experiement. (you know the situation, when somebody visits you, and ask you to show an experiement, and you have no idea in that moment.)
By the way: If you have any interesting chemical experiement, which is not really explosive, just interesting, for example: Beluszov-Zabotinszkij reaction, please send it!
deezs
Frequent Poster
Posts: 113
From: Hungary
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 06-29-2001 03:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Something else about the mixture:
Some part of the ZnO can be substituted with MgO (in my book aren't any ratios), and the CCl4 with other chlorocarbons (for example hexachlor ethane).
Argh! I fuck so much time to translate the hungarian names of the chemicals to english.
Have you got a book (the simpler the better) about the spelling of the chemicals?