megalomania
June 17th, 2003, 08:51 PM
Morrigan
Frequent Poster
Posts: 81
From: The Netherlands
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 03-14-2001 02:09 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I know there have been discussions on other explosive peroxides before but I never saw anything about peroxides from diethylether, lab manuals claim these to be very dangerous and easily formed but they never mention formulas and characteristics. I know these could be supersensitive but I am gonna try it soon with very small amounts. Ether is cheap stuff and I am kind of intrigued by the idea. Does anybody have any information on this/these compound(s)?
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 03-14-2001 03:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have no solid, factual info but I get the impression that it's much more volatile and unpredictable than even AP.
Also, I've heard urea can form a peroxide. Is this explosive? I think it probably is. Anyone know how it's made?
You couldn't get cheaper than that - H2O2, HCl and urine!
Donutty
Frequent Poster
Posts: 228
From: UK
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 03-14-2001 05:00 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Isn't Urea totally different to good 'ol piss (urine)? Or then again isn't it the main constituent of urine?
I've also read about ethers forming explosive peroxides: (quote from model fuel site)
Di-Ethyl Ether
--------------
EXTREMELY FLAMMABLE
NO SMOKING
Risk Phrases
- Extremely Flammable
- May form explosive peroxides
- Harmful if swallowed
- Repeated exposure may cause skin cracking
- Vapours may cause drowsiness or dizziness
Jumala
Frequent Poster
Posts: 200
From: Germany
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 03-14-2001 06:46 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I heared Ether-peroxid forms when ether in a large, nearby empty, white-glass bottle is placed direkt in sunlight. ( normal are brown-glass bottles)
It is a horror to all lab staff.
A friend works in a lab where was found an old forgotten ether bottle somewhere in the lab. There was a layer of brownish crystals at the bottom.
They have evacuated the lab until the fire brigade has removed the bottle.
Morrigan
Frequent Poster
Posts: 81
From: The Netherlands
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 03-15-2001 08:19 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, I know, but this process takes a lot of time, I also don’t think that concentrated H2O2 will do the trick. It seems that there is little to no info on these peroxides, which might indicate how dangerous to handle they really are.
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 03-16-2001 04:16 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Urine is a solution of urea. But it would be a lot better and more hygenic to buy it pure, I think!
?? NH2-CO-NH2 + 4H2O2 ---HCl catalyst---> NH2-O2-CO-O2-NH2 + 4H2O ??
If that is correct, then urea peroxide has a very good oxygen balance, and will probably be very powerful. Maybe too unstable to use though.
I'll see if my local garden centre has any urea, and if they do I'll try it this weekend. I'll use the same basic method as for AP, unless anyone has any better ideas. Don't worry, I'll only make about quarter of a gram, so if it blows up for no reason it won't be too bad.
pete
Frequent Poster
Posts: 56
From: u.k
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 03-17-2001 05:42 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The peroxide of ether is way to dangerous to be of any use, you can't even handle them dry, as they explode that easily. I would leave these perticular peroxides, if you still dought, then check any good chem text book for ether, the peroxide is very dangerious.
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-04-2001 04:54 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Urea peroxyde is not unstable otherwise it wouldn't be sold in shops!!!!
Ether peroxydes are amongst the more sensitive stuffs.
As I have mentionned earlier in the forum:
Peroxyde are produced by a lot of products upon contact with the oxygen of the air and light.
Those products contain usually:
*the ether group R-O-R and the ease of formation increase from primary R to ternary R (Thus R= CH3- *double and triple links can allow peroxydation too... here a peroxyde in a monomer can generate an explosive polymerisation (yes peroxydes are used to initiate polymerisations to produce plastics).
*some halide in alfa and beta of a double link produce peroxydes with ease and lead to the same problems as above, cristals and polymerisation.
*ceton, aldehydes, hemicetals, cetals, hemiacetals, acetals does also quite easily.
So yes peroxydes are a hell for chemists and playing with them has nothing to do with playing with AP or HMTD!!!!!
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-04-2001 04:57 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry to have posted twice the same text but a part was not given due to a missing space with my enumeration of < < < ....
endotherm
Frequent Poster
Posts: 164
From: dunno
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 04-06-2001 04:55 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i have this wart remover liquid, that is ether based, and when i was looking through my cabinet for anything fun to play with i remembered this post and checked out the bottle, there was some crusty stuff by the cap, so i scraped it off, and when i lit it, it melted and then went "putuck", and made a little flash of fire,it was a very small amount but an unquestionable explosive happening
YTS
Frequent Poster
Posts: 61
From:
Registered: MAR 2001
posted 04-06-2001 07:08 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It contains nitrocotton (nitrocelluose)the same as new skin its 20 yrs since i used that stuff im suprised i remember i used it for my varuka my selling is shit
YTS
Frequent Poster
Posts: 61
From:
Registered: MAR 2001
posted 04-06-2001 07:20 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
that was meant to say spelling .thinking about itwas how alfred nobel invented blasting gelatin & the gelatin dynamites in 1875 when he cut his finger he used new skin on the cut & that got him thinking about using using colliodion cotton for gelatinization of nitro glycerin
Ezikiel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 66
From: New Delhi, India
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 05-17-2001 08:52 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well the formula of Diethylether peroxide is CH3-CH-(O-OH)-O-CH2-CH3
The (O-OH) is bound to the CH-. And the CH- is also bound to the ether group.
I also have a test for it cause we uesd it when we used to use old ether bottles in the lab. The peroxide is ether soluble so u can't detect it's presence without the test.
The test is ....Take a sample of the ether and add it to freshly prepared FeSO4 solution and shake it well. Then add KCNS solution. The appearance of a blood red color indicates the presence of a peroxide.
There is usually a small amount of ethanol in the ether to prevent peroxidation from the atmosphere. The ethanol forms some sort of an organic carbonate.
I tried to make it but the problem I ran into was it's extraction from ether. But that ether detonates on heating in an open vessel (~ 60-70*C). That stuff is powerful.
------------------
"Go out in a BLAZE OF GLORY"
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-18-2001 03:08 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Me think it is K-SCN (thiocyanate) and not K-CNS isothiocyanate that's used for Fe(SCN)3 red blood characterisation!
Indeed the Fe2+ ion is oxydised readily by peroxydes into Fe3+....from what the color comes otherwise there is no such color!
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-18-2001 03:14 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Strange I always knew diethylether peroxyde to be CH3-CH2-O-O-CH2-CH3; the compound you have showed is more like an also wel known peroxyde: hemiacetal peroxyde from the ethylhemiacetal CH3-CHOH-O-CH2-CH3!
And thus the peroxyde of it is CH3-CHOOH-O-CH2-CH3 < === > CH3-CHOH-O-O-CH2-CH3!
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
Alchemist
Frequent Poster
Posts: 211
From: Woodland hills,Ca.,L.A.
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 05-18-2001 10:11 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello gang,
For some information on peroxides and there dangers, check out these two sights!
http://www.cc.umanitoba.ca/campus/health_and_safety/explosives.html
Some good pictures here;
http://home.cyberave.com/~rhr/ether.htm
------------------
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 05-19-2001 01:56 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Philou: (in response to an earlier post)is urea peroxide sold in shops? I've never seen it.
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-21-2001 04:11 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes as a water treatment!Bacteria,... killer!
Now it is not sold in all countries since it is useless if you have access to H2O2, javel water, dichloroisocyanurate of Na,... KMnO4,...
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 05-23-2001 11:36 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OK, thanks.
What is javel water?
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-23-2001 12:21 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2NaOH +Cl2 +H2O--> NaOCl + NaCl +2H2O
Thus javel water is a mix of Na hypochlorite and chloride!
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 06-02-2001 01:12 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another question, also regarding urea peroxide: is it sold pure? MEKP is sold here as a catalyst, and that's explosive, but they sell it in solution.
Also, does anyone have info on THFP (tetrahydrofuran peroxide)? I believe THF can be found as a solvent for PVC.
I'd be interested in in the formulas of both THF and THFP, and power/sensitivity of THFP compared to AP, HMTD and/or ether peroxide. Methods for manufacture, VoD etc would also be great. Yes, I know it's probably hyper-dangerous, I'm just curious. And yes, I also know of the saying "curiosity killed the cat"!
If I can work out how to put it up here I've found a very nice picture of 15 gallons of peroxidised THF being disposed of that I'll show you.
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 06-02-2001 01:27 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This has to be the best picture I've ever seen!
http://home.cyberave.com/~rhr/image/boom.jpg
As you can see, the THF wasn't fully peroxidised, resulting in a lot of extra fuel and a rather picturesque fire-ball.
(Wanted to add how the picture shows 15 gallons of THF exploding, hence the huge fireball. NBK2000)
[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited June 05, 2001).]
Alchemist
Frequent Poster
Posts: 211
From: Woodland hills,Ca.,L.A.
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 06-02-2001 06:01 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello Mr. Cool and others,
The formula for Tetrahydrofuran is,
CH2CH2CH2CH2O, I found this in the library. Do not no way they did not show it as C4H8O. Nothing on the peroxide as yet.
I am dreaming also of other peroxides. Did ya read the posts by MEKAP and myself? I have dreamed of MEKP and it always fails. I am thinking again after reading MEKAP's post that it may be THFP that he made! He used PVC solvent!!!
More later I hope.
------------------
[This message has been edited by Alchemist (edited June 02, 2001).]
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 06-03-2001 05:48 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CH2CH2CH2CH2O?
Maybe a ring structure, a bit like cyclobutane with an oxygen in the ring as well?
The the peroxide might just be the same with a few more oxygen atoms slipped into the ring.
Alchemist
Frequent Poster
Posts: 211
From: Woodland hills,Ca.,L.A.
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 06-04-2001 10:06 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello all,
Seems like THF is a easy PEROXIDE former. It is on all the dangerious peroxide forming chemicls web sights.
------------------
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-08-2001 06:46 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes easy reason why there are inhibitors in it!
THF is a pentagone with an O on its top and CH2's on all the 4 others (-CH2-CH2-O-CH2-CH2-) close the loop and you get the THF formula!
THFP is simply an hexagone (-CH2-CH2-O-O-CH2-CH2-); you clearly see that the OB is less good than in CTAP!)
Now with a little thinking; this OB can be improved with cyclobutoxane (-CH2-CH2-O-CH2-) that would lead to cyclobutoxane peroxyde (very favourable since the cyclobutoxane is angle stressed) (-CH2-CH2-O-O-CH2-)!
With paraformaldehyde peroxyde (near perfect OB thus very sensitive)(-CH2-O-O-CH2-O-O-CH2-O-O-) or (-CH2-O-O-CH2-O-O-)!
With furoxane (-CH=CH-O-CH=CH-) furoxane peroxyde (-CH=CH-O-O-CH=CH-)!
Thus the world of peroxyde is vast and full of dangers!
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 06-24-2001 11:55 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My mind was wandering again today, and I thought of this:
Urea peroxide is not explosive, so it must be at least fairly stable. Well how about adding this to H2SO4/NH4NO3 -> cyclotridinitrourea peroxide! (I'm assuming that urea peroxide has a similar structure to CTAP or CDAP, due to the C=O bond in the middle of the urea molecule, like in acetone)
I can't see any reason why it couldn't be made, in theory at least. Can you?
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-25-2001 07:15 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yep! Urea or peroxydes are not very stable in acidic conditions; urea will form the uronium salt and some dinitrourea while the peroxyde part will be destroyed!
Ever tried to mix CTAP with conc H2SO4...not really good to do so!
Frequent Poster
Posts: 81
From: The Netherlands
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 03-14-2001 02:09 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I know there have been discussions on other explosive peroxides before but I never saw anything about peroxides from diethylether, lab manuals claim these to be very dangerous and easily formed but they never mention formulas and characteristics. I know these could be supersensitive but I am gonna try it soon with very small amounts. Ether is cheap stuff and I am kind of intrigued by the idea. Does anybody have any information on this/these compound(s)?
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 03-14-2001 03:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have no solid, factual info but I get the impression that it's much more volatile and unpredictable than even AP.
Also, I've heard urea can form a peroxide. Is this explosive? I think it probably is. Anyone know how it's made?
You couldn't get cheaper than that - H2O2, HCl and urine!
Donutty
Frequent Poster
Posts: 228
From: UK
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 03-14-2001 05:00 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Isn't Urea totally different to good 'ol piss (urine)? Or then again isn't it the main constituent of urine?
I've also read about ethers forming explosive peroxides: (quote from model fuel site)
Di-Ethyl Ether
--------------
EXTREMELY FLAMMABLE
NO SMOKING
Risk Phrases
- Extremely Flammable
- May form explosive peroxides
- Harmful if swallowed
- Repeated exposure may cause skin cracking
- Vapours may cause drowsiness or dizziness
Jumala
Frequent Poster
Posts: 200
From: Germany
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 03-14-2001 06:46 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I heared Ether-peroxid forms when ether in a large, nearby empty, white-glass bottle is placed direkt in sunlight. ( normal are brown-glass bottles)
It is a horror to all lab staff.
A friend works in a lab where was found an old forgotten ether bottle somewhere in the lab. There was a layer of brownish crystals at the bottom.
They have evacuated the lab until the fire brigade has removed the bottle.
Morrigan
Frequent Poster
Posts: 81
From: The Netherlands
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 03-15-2001 08:19 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, I know, but this process takes a lot of time, I also don’t think that concentrated H2O2 will do the trick. It seems that there is little to no info on these peroxides, which might indicate how dangerous to handle they really are.
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 03-16-2001 04:16 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Urine is a solution of urea. But it would be a lot better and more hygenic to buy it pure, I think!
?? NH2-CO-NH2 + 4H2O2 ---HCl catalyst---> NH2-O2-CO-O2-NH2 + 4H2O ??
If that is correct, then urea peroxide has a very good oxygen balance, and will probably be very powerful. Maybe too unstable to use though.
I'll see if my local garden centre has any urea, and if they do I'll try it this weekend. I'll use the same basic method as for AP, unless anyone has any better ideas. Don't worry, I'll only make about quarter of a gram, so if it blows up for no reason it won't be too bad.
pete
Frequent Poster
Posts: 56
From: u.k
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 03-17-2001 05:42 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The peroxide of ether is way to dangerous to be of any use, you can't even handle them dry, as they explode that easily. I would leave these perticular peroxides, if you still dought, then check any good chem text book for ether, the peroxide is very dangerious.
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-04-2001 04:54 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Urea peroxyde is not unstable otherwise it wouldn't be sold in shops!!!!
Ether peroxydes are amongst the more sensitive stuffs.
As I have mentionned earlier in the forum:
Peroxyde are produced by a lot of products upon contact with the oxygen of the air and light.
Those products contain usually:
*the ether group R-O-R and the ease of formation increase from primary R to ternary R (Thus R= CH3- *double and triple links can allow peroxydation too... here a peroxyde in a monomer can generate an explosive polymerisation (yes peroxydes are used to initiate polymerisations to produce plastics).
*some halide in alfa and beta of a double link produce peroxydes with ease and lead to the same problems as above, cristals and polymerisation.
*ceton, aldehydes, hemicetals, cetals, hemiacetals, acetals does also quite easily.
So yes peroxydes are a hell for chemists and playing with them has nothing to do with playing with AP or HMTD!!!!!
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-04-2001 04:57 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry to have posted twice the same text but a part was not given due to a missing space with my enumeration of < < < ....
endotherm
Frequent Poster
Posts: 164
From: dunno
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 04-06-2001 04:55 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i have this wart remover liquid, that is ether based, and when i was looking through my cabinet for anything fun to play with i remembered this post and checked out the bottle, there was some crusty stuff by the cap, so i scraped it off, and when i lit it, it melted and then went "putuck", and made a little flash of fire,it was a very small amount but an unquestionable explosive happening
YTS
Frequent Poster
Posts: 61
From:
Registered: MAR 2001
posted 04-06-2001 07:08 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It contains nitrocotton (nitrocelluose)the same as new skin its 20 yrs since i used that stuff im suprised i remember i used it for my varuka my selling is shit
YTS
Frequent Poster
Posts: 61
From:
Registered: MAR 2001
posted 04-06-2001 07:20 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
that was meant to say spelling .thinking about itwas how alfred nobel invented blasting gelatin & the gelatin dynamites in 1875 when he cut his finger he used new skin on the cut & that got him thinking about using using colliodion cotton for gelatinization of nitro glycerin
Ezikiel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 66
From: New Delhi, India
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 05-17-2001 08:52 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well the formula of Diethylether peroxide is CH3-CH-(O-OH)-O-CH2-CH3
The (O-OH) is bound to the CH-. And the CH- is also bound to the ether group.
I also have a test for it cause we uesd it when we used to use old ether bottles in the lab. The peroxide is ether soluble so u can't detect it's presence without the test.
The test is ....Take a sample of the ether and add it to freshly prepared FeSO4 solution and shake it well. Then add KCNS solution. The appearance of a blood red color indicates the presence of a peroxide.
There is usually a small amount of ethanol in the ether to prevent peroxidation from the atmosphere. The ethanol forms some sort of an organic carbonate.
I tried to make it but the problem I ran into was it's extraction from ether. But that ether detonates on heating in an open vessel (~ 60-70*C). That stuff is powerful.
------------------
"Go out in a BLAZE OF GLORY"
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-18-2001 03:08 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Me think it is K-SCN (thiocyanate) and not K-CNS isothiocyanate that's used for Fe(SCN)3 red blood characterisation!
Indeed the Fe2+ ion is oxydised readily by peroxydes into Fe3+....from what the color comes otherwise there is no such color!
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-18-2001 03:14 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Strange I always knew diethylether peroxyde to be CH3-CH2-O-O-CH2-CH3; the compound you have showed is more like an also wel known peroxyde: hemiacetal peroxyde from the ethylhemiacetal CH3-CHOH-O-CH2-CH3!
And thus the peroxyde of it is CH3-CHOOH-O-CH2-CH3 < === > CH3-CHOH-O-O-CH2-CH3!
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
Alchemist
Frequent Poster
Posts: 211
From: Woodland hills,Ca.,L.A.
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 05-18-2001 10:11 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello gang,
For some information on peroxides and there dangers, check out these two sights!
http://www.cc.umanitoba.ca/campus/health_and_safety/explosives.html
Some good pictures here;
http://home.cyberave.com/~rhr/ether.htm
------------------
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 05-19-2001 01:56 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Philou: (in response to an earlier post)is urea peroxide sold in shops? I've never seen it.
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-21-2001 04:11 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes as a water treatment!Bacteria,... killer!
Now it is not sold in all countries since it is useless if you have access to H2O2, javel water, dichloroisocyanurate of Na,... KMnO4,...
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 05-23-2001 11:36 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OK, thanks.
What is javel water?
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-23-2001 12:21 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2NaOH +Cl2 +H2O--> NaOCl + NaCl +2H2O
Thus javel water is a mix of Na hypochlorite and chloride!
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 06-02-2001 01:12 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another question, also regarding urea peroxide: is it sold pure? MEKP is sold here as a catalyst, and that's explosive, but they sell it in solution.
Also, does anyone have info on THFP (tetrahydrofuran peroxide)? I believe THF can be found as a solvent for PVC.
I'd be interested in in the formulas of both THF and THFP, and power/sensitivity of THFP compared to AP, HMTD and/or ether peroxide. Methods for manufacture, VoD etc would also be great. Yes, I know it's probably hyper-dangerous, I'm just curious. And yes, I also know of the saying "curiosity killed the cat"!
If I can work out how to put it up here I've found a very nice picture of 15 gallons of peroxidised THF being disposed of that I'll show you.
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 06-02-2001 01:27 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This has to be the best picture I've ever seen!
http://home.cyberave.com/~rhr/image/boom.jpg
As you can see, the THF wasn't fully peroxidised, resulting in a lot of extra fuel and a rather picturesque fire-ball.
(Wanted to add how the picture shows 15 gallons of THF exploding, hence the huge fireball. NBK2000)
[This message has been edited by nbk2000 (edited June 05, 2001).]
Alchemist
Frequent Poster
Posts: 211
From: Woodland hills,Ca.,L.A.
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 06-02-2001 06:01 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello Mr. Cool and others,
The formula for Tetrahydrofuran is,
CH2CH2CH2CH2O, I found this in the library. Do not no way they did not show it as C4H8O. Nothing on the peroxide as yet.
I am dreaming also of other peroxides. Did ya read the posts by MEKAP and myself? I have dreamed of MEKP and it always fails. I am thinking again after reading MEKAP's post that it may be THFP that he made! He used PVC solvent!!!
More later I hope.
------------------
[This message has been edited by Alchemist (edited June 02, 2001).]
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 06-03-2001 05:48 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CH2CH2CH2CH2O?
Maybe a ring structure, a bit like cyclobutane with an oxygen in the ring as well?
The the peroxide might just be the same with a few more oxygen atoms slipped into the ring.
Alchemist
Frequent Poster
Posts: 211
From: Woodland hills,Ca.,L.A.
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 06-04-2001 10:06 AM
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Hello all,
Seems like THF is a easy PEROXIDE former. It is on all the dangerious peroxide forming chemicls web sights.
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PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-08-2001 06:46 AM
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Yes easy reason why there are inhibitors in it!
THF is a pentagone with an O on its top and CH2's on all the 4 others (-CH2-CH2-O-CH2-CH2-) close the loop and you get the THF formula!
THFP is simply an hexagone (-CH2-CH2-O-O-CH2-CH2-); you clearly see that the OB is less good than in CTAP!)
Now with a little thinking; this OB can be improved with cyclobutoxane (-CH2-CH2-O-CH2-) that would lead to cyclobutoxane peroxyde (very favourable since the cyclobutoxane is angle stressed) (-CH2-CH2-O-O-CH2-)!
With paraformaldehyde peroxyde (near perfect OB thus very sensitive)(-CH2-O-O-CH2-O-O-CH2-O-O-) or (-CH2-O-O-CH2-O-O-)!
With furoxane (-CH=CH-O-CH=CH-) furoxane peroxyde (-CH=CH-O-O-CH=CH-)!
Thus the world of peroxyde is vast and full of dangers!
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"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 06-24-2001 11:55 AM
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My mind was wandering again today, and I thought of this:
Urea peroxide is not explosive, so it must be at least fairly stable. Well how about adding this to H2SO4/NH4NO3 -> cyclotridinitrourea peroxide! (I'm assuming that urea peroxide has a similar structure to CTAP or CDAP, due to the C=O bond in the middle of the urea molecule, like in acetone)
I can't see any reason why it couldn't be made, in theory at least. Can you?
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-25-2001 07:15 AM
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Yep! Urea or peroxydes are not very stable in acidic conditions; urea will form the uronium salt and some dinitrourea while the peroxyde part will be destroyed!
Ever tried to mix CTAP with conc H2SO4...not really good to do so!