megalomania
June 17th, 2003, 08:52 PM
Teck
Frequent Poster
Posts: 146
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 05-25-2001 02:46 AM
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Im taking blasting classes and we set off rounds with different explosives, mostly trimtex (NG + saw dust and some other shit, you never know what a headache is untill you handle this stuff with bare hands), water gels, and slurries (slurry is a difrent type of water gel). And to tell you the truth AP and HTMD is shit compared to these explosives. The biggest charge I ever set off using AP is 2/3 full coke can, it gave a pretty nice boom and a pretty decent crater but you take a half a stick of Trimtex (name brand) and set it of in a 1.5 inch hole in hard ground you will feel the shock wave even if you hide behind something and the crater is about 10 times bigger than that of AP.
AP and HTMD is best used in blasting caps.
And not for making the most damage to something. I think ANNM will even do more damage to things than AP will.
------------------
-------------------------
Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let people have guns ...why should we let them have ideas?
--Joseph Stalin
(and thats what todays governments try to do is brain wash everyone)
Arthis
Frequent Poster
Posts: 203
From:
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 05-25-2001 11:25 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Who ever told that AP was powerful ? It's just an easy-to-make explosive, so it's the most used by people like me who can't manage to make/have much high explosives. Notice that this section -about explosives peroxydes- is apart from the section high explosives. Not everyone wants to kill himself with NG based explosives.
FadeToBlackened
Frequent Poster
Posts: 201
From: Hell
Registered: MAR 2001
posted 05-25-2001 12:28 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Primary explosives arent usually very powerful. MHN has some power though hehe. Thats why they arent used for blasting/etc is because there Is better things for the job.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-25-2001 02:54 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Teck, dynamite is a very nice explosive especially the higher grades exhibiting high VoD and brisance. But making nitro isn't much fun, it can be expensive gives you killer headaches and I just don't trust the stuff in liquid form. If you want enough for even one stick you need a lot of nitro, a scary amount.
From the small amounts of ammonia dynamite I've tried, it was very nice but I don't trust it enough to make a whole stick.
CodeMason
Frequent Poster
Posts: 383
From: Your Nightmares
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 05-25-2001 08:23 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your personal experience means squat. So what if you weren't competant enough to make a good blast with AP? It needs to be confined and have a high density to explode. Best results are if it is plasticized. HMTD is around as powerful as full potential AP as described above, even without those bells and whistles.
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 05-26-2001 12:37 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well lets clear a few things up here. AP is a powetfull explosive and its people like you that get hurt by it. If you dont respect the power of an explsive like acetone peroxide, it will kill you or take a limb off. Also, when you say you have detonated two-thirds of a coke can filled with acetone peroxide, how many grams do you think that is? Acetone peroxide is not very dense in its unpressed form at all. Even when pressed, it must be pressed very well with a mechanical press to achieve good results. Also, what do you think the explosive you set off were meant for? Moving land, trees, etc. 60% dynamite detonates at an average of about 5800 m/s, acetone peroxide detonates at 5300 m/s at 1.18 g/cm. not much of a difference is there?
[This message has been edited by ALENGOSVIG1 (edited May 26, 2001).]
Teck
Frequent Poster
Posts: 146
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 05-26-2001 04:33 AM
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Im estimating about 300g in the coke can I blew up and it made a pretty nice boom but not as good as dynamite. Also when you load the holes you have to tamp the with a wooden dowl to get a complete coupling in the hole to have zero oxogen balnce to have the best results. And the way you tamp them dynamite stick is you ram the rode in the stick as hard as you can. Thats how safe the commercial stuff is and way more powerfull then the stuff we make. And about pressing the AP, the only way I press my AP is wet it with acetone and press it into a .30-06 casing usually standing behind something. So I still have respect for this stuff but its just not as powerfull. Also compare this, lets say you take 500g of ANFO and 500g of and put it in a casing and dig it in 1 foot of ground, ANFO will have more damage done than AP, but AP will sound more brissant as where ANFO will have a low more deeper boom.
Demolition
Frequent Poster
Posts: 158
From: Australia
Registered: FEB 2001
posted 05-26-2001 09:46 AM
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Personally I like the deeper sounding BOOM.
Demolition
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 618
From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 05-26-2001 12:22 PM
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so do i . But AP crackers produce a nice sharp stacato like a pistol shot. I think it is do to the higher brisance when you compare it to explosives that produce a lower boom. Like anfo.
------------------
"If you must, do it with intelligent people, at least they know how to talk to the cops."
Donutty
Frequent Poster
Posts: 228
From: UK
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-26-2001 04:14 PM
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Teck; So from now on, you're never going to make AP or HMTD, and just stick to Nitro based explosives? Have you got the time, money and balls to do that?
I'm highly defensive of HMTD because it was the first high explosive I ever made and detonated (ah, I remember it well).
Look to my post on ANFO - I carried out a full detonation of it (only 100g!) using AP; no NG needed there!
Also, has anybody ever detonated ANFO above ground.. I've only ever done it underground, making a deep thud. With a DV of around 3400 m/s... it should'nt sound too deep above ground.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-26-2001 08:20 PM
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Donutty, apparently a 1kg blast of ANFO above ground can be heard upto 7 miles away!
AP is more brisant than ANFO, but ANFO has greater gas volume evolution so will heave more soil around.
Also, a coke can is 330ml, 2/3 of that would be 220ml. To have 300gm of AP in there would require the AP to be at a density of 1.36gm/cc which is pretty high...
Commercial dynamite is subject to stringent safety checks to ensure high stability, all it could take in homemade dynamite is a bit of contamination to render it dangerously sensitive. You cannot ram the primer cartridge though!
Teck
Frequent Poster
Posts: 146
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 05-26-2001 09:30 PM
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Donutty: Ill still make ap for blasting caps, but not for producing damage. Also my first HE was AP.
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-26-2001 10:02 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I like the sound of high pitched explosives ring out for a while. I mean like you make a small bomb that goes POW and then you make a much bigger one that goes poooowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww. I also like the sound of low pitched high explosives but not when you are close to them I am talking about being 150 yards from an explosion and feeling the blast shake all your bones.
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 618
From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 05-26-2001 10:20 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i think it is cool, when you make like an AP cracker and you stand 10 feet away from it when it goes off. (using something like cardboard for the casing) if you achieve true detonation you won't be able to hear for a couple seconds. i think that is cool. I also am a fan of the shaking body. (i love cars with nice systems, with the bass cranked on the amp.) that is why i am thinking about an ANFO charge for the 4th of july.
------------------
"If you must, do it with intelligent people, at least they know how to talk to the cops."
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-26-2001 10:33 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
standing next to an AP cracker (or any other explosive) while it is going off is a bad idea, that can cause tinnitus witch I have and it sucks, just one explosion too loud and that eeeeeeeeeee sound could be the last you ever hear. (oh and BTW my tinnitus was not caused by loud sounds)
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 618
From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 05-26-2001 11:02 PM
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Good call man. but if you think about it, if you actually achieve full detonation with an AP cracker, you really either need to:
A)have ear protection
B)be standing a long way away
the first one i can do, as my family is into the hunting and shooting at the local range and shit. But the second one is just to damn inefficient. i am not about ready to stand a long ways off for a simple AP cracker. I don't want to where the ear protection either cause i would like listening to the fruits of my labor. i mean come one. if i was to make a cracker capable of achieveing detonation. i would want to hear it. for the simple reason as to know that i actually did achieve detonation, AND that i like the loud noise produced. I makes me feel good to know that i did that.
thanks for the work of warning though. Trust me, i will head it if i happen to make a fairly large "cracker" for the 4th.
------------------
"If you must, do it with intelligent people, at least they know how to talk to the cops."
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-26-2001 11:23 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
well, on the lower sounds you cannot protect yourself too well as the lower sound is unidirectional and will go through many objects but it is generally the moderate to hi pitched sounds that do damage, if your ears ring for more than a min or it is very noticible you run the risk of havving cumilitive hearing damage effects, however if yo hear nothing or muffled sounds you just gambled with your hearing, you can wear noise restricting (but not eliminating earmuffs or ear plugs, you can also get shooters earmuffs that allow the sound to be electronicly turned down to a safe level, I use 25 DB rated foam earplugs, they let you hear plenty.
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 05-29-2001 05:03 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is kinda related to all this talk of noise etc:
I went to a firing range once (using 5.56 mm L98-A's), and when not wearing ear protection the "CRACK!" when they fire is very penetrating even 20 yards or so away. But when I fired one I had ear protection on, and I could still hear everyone speak almost normally so I was a bit worried they were faulty. However, when I fired the gun all I heard was a "THUMP!", and no piercing high-pitches which damage hearing.
Teck: why the hell are you complaining about AP and HMTD not being as powerful as NG based explosives? Who ever said they are? They are completely different, and used for completely different purposes. Anyone that uses HMTD in large amounts to "cause damage" is a fool.
In your first post you said, "I think ANNM will even do more damage to things than AP will." Of course it will. ANNM is a powerful, brisant high explosive, with a VoD that can be around 7000 m/s (depending on % of NM).
And what are you talking about when you say that ramming explosives into a hole gives a zero oxygen balance? And that commercial stuff is way more powerful than the stuff we make? If we make it to the specifications of the commercial stuff then it's power will be exactly the same.
-A-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 100
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 06-02-2001 02:48 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They are for completely different purposes, what's the objective of comparing them?. Also, you are comparing it to the old mighty NG!. Then, why don't you compare your "trimex" thing with RDX, HMX or hexanitrohexaazaisowurtzitane?.
Frequent Poster
Posts: 146
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 05-25-2001 02:46 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Im taking blasting classes and we set off rounds with different explosives, mostly trimtex (NG + saw dust and some other shit, you never know what a headache is untill you handle this stuff with bare hands), water gels, and slurries (slurry is a difrent type of water gel). And to tell you the truth AP and HTMD is shit compared to these explosives. The biggest charge I ever set off using AP is 2/3 full coke can, it gave a pretty nice boom and a pretty decent crater but you take a half a stick of Trimtex (name brand) and set it of in a 1.5 inch hole in hard ground you will feel the shock wave even if you hide behind something and the crater is about 10 times bigger than that of AP.
AP and HTMD is best used in blasting caps.
And not for making the most damage to something. I think ANNM will even do more damage to things than AP will.
------------------
-------------------------
Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let people have guns ...why should we let them have ideas?
--Joseph Stalin
(and thats what todays governments try to do is brain wash everyone)
Arthis
Frequent Poster
Posts: 203
From:
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 05-25-2001 11:25 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Who ever told that AP was powerful ? It's just an easy-to-make explosive, so it's the most used by people like me who can't manage to make/have much high explosives. Notice that this section -about explosives peroxydes- is apart from the section high explosives. Not everyone wants to kill himself with NG based explosives.
FadeToBlackened
Frequent Poster
Posts: 201
From: Hell
Registered: MAR 2001
posted 05-25-2001 12:28 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Primary explosives arent usually very powerful. MHN has some power though hehe. Thats why they arent used for blasting/etc is because there Is better things for the job.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-25-2001 02:54 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Teck, dynamite is a very nice explosive especially the higher grades exhibiting high VoD and brisance. But making nitro isn't much fun, it can be expensive gives you killer headaches and I just don't trust the stuff in liquid form. If you want enough for even one stick you need a lot of nitro, a scary amount.
From the small amounts of ammonia dynamite I've tried, it was very nice but I don't trust it enough to make a whole stick.
CodeMason
Frequent Poster
Posts: 383
From: Your Nightmares
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 05-25-2001 08:23 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your personal experience means squat. So what if you weren't competant enough to make a good blast with AP? It needs to be confined and have a high density to explode. Best results are if it is plasticized. HMTD is around as powerful as full potential AP as described above, even without those bells and whistles.
ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 05-26-2001 12:37 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well lets clear a few things up here. AP is a powetfull explosive and its people like you that get hurt by it. If you dont respect the power of an explsive like acetone peroxide, it will kill you or take a limb off. Also, when you say you have detonated two-thirds of a coke can filled with acetone peroxide, how many grams do you think that is? Acetone peroxide is not very dense in its unpressed form at all. Even when pressed, it must be pressed very well with a mechanical press to achieve good results. Also, what do you think the explosive you set off were meant for? Moving land, trees, etc. 60% dynamite detonates at an average of about 5800 m/s, acetone peroxide detonates at 5300 m/s at 1.18 g/cm. not much of a difference is there?
[This message has been edited by ALENGOSVIG1 (edited May 26, 2001).]
Teck
Frequent Poster
Posts: 146
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 05-26-2001 04:33 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Im estimating about 300g in the coke can I blew up and it made a pretty nice boom but not as good as dynamite. Also when you load the holes you have to tamp the with a wooden dowl to get a complete coupling in the hole to have zero oxogen balnce to have the best results. And the way you tamp them dynamite stick is you ram the rode in the stick as hard as you can. Thats how safe the commercial stuff is and way more powerfull then the stuff we make. And about pressing the AP, the only way I press my AP is wet it with acetone and press it into a .30-06 casing usually standing behind something. So I still have respect for this stuff but its just not as powerfull. Also compare this, lets say you take 500g of ANFO and 500g of and put it in a casing and dig it in 1 foot of ground, ANFO will have more damage done than AP, but AP will sound more brissant as where ANFO will have a low more deeper boom.
Demolition
Frequent Poster
Posts: 158
From: Australia
Registered: FEB 2001
posted 05-26-2001 09:46 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Personally I like the deeper sounding BOOM.
Demolition
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 618
From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 05-26-2001 12:22 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
so do i . But AP crackers produce a nice sharp stacato like a pistol shot. I think it is do to the higher brisance when you compare it to explosives that produce a lower boom. Like anfo.
------------------
"If you must, do it with intelligent people, at least they know how to talk to the cops."
Donutty
Frequent Poster
Posts: 228
From: UK
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-26-2001 04:14 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Teck; So from now on, you're never going to make AP or HMTD, and just stick to Nitro based explosives? Have you got the time, money and balls to do that?
I'm highly defensive of HMTD because it was the first high explosive I ever made and detonated (ah, I remember it well).
Look to my post on ANFO - I carried out a full detonation of it (only 100g!) using AP; no NG needed there!
Also, has anybody ever detonated ANFO above ground.. I've only ever done it underground, making a deep thud. With a DV of around 3400 m/s... it should'nt sound too deep above ground.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-26-2001 08:20 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Donutty, apparently a 1kg blast of ANFO above ground can be heard upto 7 miles away!
AP is more brisant than ANFO, but ANFO has greater gas volume evolution so will heave more soil around.
Also, a coke can is 330ml, 2/3 of that would be 220ml. To have 300gm of AP in there would require the AP to be at a density of 1.36gm/cc which is pretty high...
Commercial dynamite is subject to stringent safety checks to ensure high stability, all it could take in homemade dynamite is a bit of contamination to render it dangerously sensitive. You cannot ram the primer cartridge though!
Teck
Frequent Poster
Posts: 146
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 05-26-2001 09:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Donutty: Ill still make ap for blasting caps, but not for producing damage. Also my first HE was AP.
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-26-2001 10:02 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I like the sound of high pitched explosives ring out for a while. I mean like you make a small bomb that goes POW and then you make a much bigger one that goes poooowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww. I also like the sound of low pitched high explosives but not when you are close to them I am talking about being 150 yards from an explosion and feeling the blast shake all your bones.
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 618
From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 05-26-2001 10:20 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i think it is cool, when you make like an AP cracker and you stand 10 feet away from it when it goes off. (using something like cardboard for the casing) if you achieve true detonation you won't be able to hear for a couple seconds. i think that is cool. I also am a fan of the shaking body. (i love cars with nice systems, with the bass cranked on the amp.) that is why i am thinking about an ANFO charge for the 4th of july.
------------------
"If you must, do it with intelligent people, at least they know how to talk to the cops."
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-26-2001 10:33 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
standing next to an AP cracker (or any other explosive) while it is going off is a bad idea, that can cause tinnitus witch I have and it sucks, just one explosion too loud and that eeeeeeeeeee sound could be the last you ever hear. (oh and BTW my tinnitus was not caused by loud sounds)
CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 618
From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 05-26-2001 11:02 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good call man. but if you think about it, if you actually achieve full detonation with an AP cracker, you really either need to:
A)have ear protection
B)be standing a long way away
the first one i can do, as my family is into the hunting and shooting at the local range and shit. But the second one is just to damn inefficient. i am not about ready to stand a long ways off for a simple AP cracker. I don't want to where the ear protection either cause i would like listening to the fruits of my labor. i mean come one. if i was to make a cracker capable of achieveing detonation. i would want to hear it. for the simple reason as to know that i actually did achieve detonation, AND that i like the loud noise produced. I makes me feel good to know that i did that.
thanks for the work of warning though. Trust me, i will head it if i happen to make a fairly large "cracker" for the 4th.
------------------
"If you must, do it with intelligent people, at least they know how to talk to the cops."
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-26-2001 11:23 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
well, on the lower sounds you cannot protect yourself too well as the lower sound is unidirectional and will go through many objects but it is generally the moderate to hi pitched sounds that do damage, if your ears ring for more than a min or it is very noticible you run the risk of havving cumilitive hearing damage effects, however if yo hear nothing or muffled sounds you just gambled with your hearing, you can wear noise restricting (but not eliminating earmuffs or ear plugs, you can also get shooters earmuffs that allow the sound to be electronicly turned down to a safe level, I use 25 DB rated foam earplugs, they let you hear plenty.
Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 05-29-2001 05:03 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is kinda related to all this talk of noise etc:
I went to a firing range once (using 5.56 mm L98-A's), and when not wearing ear protection the "CRACK!" when they fire is very penetrating even 20 yards or so away. But when I fired one I had ear protection on, and I could still hear everyone speak almost normally so I was a bit worried they were faulty. However, when I fired the gun all I heard was a "THUMP!", and no piercing high-pitches which damage hearing.
Teck: why the hell are you complaining about AP and HMTD not being as powerful as NG based explosives? Who ever said they are? They are completely different, and used for completely different purposes. Anyone that uses HMTD in large amounts to "cause damage" is a fool.
In your first post you said, "I think ANNM will even do more damage to things than AP will." Of course it will. ANNM is a powerful, brisant high explosive, with a VoD that can be around 7000 m/s (depending on % of NM).
And what are you talking about when you say that ramming explosives into a hole gives a zero oxygen balance? And that commercial stuff is way more powerful than the stuff we make? If we make it to the specifications of the commercial stuff then it's power will be exactly the same.
-A-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 100
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 06-02-2001 02:48 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They are for completely different purposes, what's the objective of comparing them?. Also, you are comparing it to the old mighty NG!. Then, why don't you compare your "trimex" thing with RDX, HMX or hexanitrohexaazaisowurtzitane?.