megalomania
June 17th, 2003, 08:53 PM
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-03-2001 02:17 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After reviewing the archives I found an interesting thread started by Ctrl_c, the first message I will post here:
ok, i'm kinda new at this (this is my first year taking real chem) so bear with me.
the 2 rxn's for the tri- and di- cycloacetoneperoxide are
3(C3H6O) + 3(H2O2) => C9H18O6 + 3H2O (tricycloacetone
peroxide)
and
2(C3H6O) + 2(H2O2) => C6H12O4 + 2H2O (dicycloacetone
peroxide)
now to find the molar mass (i'll only do for the tricyclo)
C3H6O..........H2O2..........C9H18O6
-----------....-----------...------------
C: 12.0 (3)....H: 1.0 (2)...C: 12.0 (9)
H: 1.0 (6).....O: 16.0 (2)...H: 1.0 (18)
O: 16.0............................O: 16.0 (6)
-----------....-----------...------------
58 g/mol.......34 g/mol......222 g/mol
H20
-----------
H: 1.0 (2)
O: 16.0 (1)
-----------
18 g/mol
now....
3(58) + 3(34) ==> 1(222) + 3(18)
so the amount needed by mass is
174g C3H6O + 102g H2O2 ==> 222g C9H18O6 + 54g H2O
is this correct aside from the fact that it doesnt account for diluted H2O2?
this information has been useful to me but now I want to know how to calculate the yeild in grams by the liquid (ml) measurement of the ingredients. this involves some math witch I am not good at. I think to figure this problem out we will need the optimum mixture of acetone to h2o2
once found out we will know that a 100% yeild will use all of the ingredients into making AP. this would be useful to see what your yeild was in creating AP by using simple algebra. can anyone help me with any of the above steps for the trimmer and the dimmer? I want to do some AP tests and I need to have a more accurate way of calculating my yeild so I can make just around the right amount of ap without wasting my chems and having excess that may go without use and be needed for disposal.
Thank you anyone that can help me with this
[This message has been edited by PYRO500 (edited June 03, 2001).]
Ezikiel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 66
From: New Delhi, India
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 06-03-2001 04:52 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Pyro500 !!!
I have no specific method of calculation but just a suggestion which is the following : After u filter out the AP do not dispose off the solution, put it back in the freezer. In about a couple of days u'll see more AP in the solution. I have a lot of Acetone on my disposal as I don't buy it ...... I make it. I accidently came across a strain of probably Aspergillus which produces a mixture of Acetone and Butanol when it acts on starchy material. And both of them are easy to seperate out by distillation. But the main thing being leave the solution for a while after u filter the AP out.
------------------
"Go out in a BLAZE OF GLORY"
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-03-2001 06:04 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
yes, but you still wont always get a 100% yeild. I know about filtering it and more forming due to not haveing so much in the solution. Aspergillus? the fungus? how much acetone do you get from a fungus culture? how do you keep the acetone from evaporating without killing the fungus in the cold. I do not curently have distillation equipment in my house although I want to get some when I can get some AN to make nitric acid. how did you isolate the strain of the fungus?
Ezikiel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 66
From: New Delhi, India
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 06-03-2001 11:26 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not too sure that it is Aspergillus as I was trying to isolate Stachybotrys atra from an old cardboard box so I had added it to a bottle full of rice and the supposed S.atra died out instead I got some fungus which was white and had dark green fruiting bodies. But anyways someone is analysing it for me so I don't know yet exactly what fungus it is. The setup I have here is that I have big drums in which I put the starchy materials and these drums are placed in the sun and there r tubes leading out of these drums into smaller drums placed underground under perpetual shade which r not so far from the production drums. And tell me how do u wash ur AP ....
------------------
"Go out in a BLAZE OF GLORY"
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-03-2001 11:43 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
how do I wash it? well after I filter it I spoon it into a new filter witch is usualy a coffie filter but in a hurry I have used a t shirt. and I pour water over the ap and sometimes I add a base like baking soda (i've been experimenting with other chems) and I usually pour the wasted solution (after all AP is formed) over wood ashes into the ground or I will pour it on a bonfire (same place).
I usually get alot of peroxide each time I make it as I have a 30 % stuff. as for the bacteria I think you have
Clostridium acetobytilicium bacteria used in 1915-? to make butyl alcohol and acetone does it have citric acid in it though? I am thinking it is not a fungus but a bacteria. try doing a gram stain on it and seeing if it is gram positive or negative then try penicilin on it if it is pos. I think.
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-03-2001 11:44 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
anyways back to the topic
Ezikiel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 66
From: New Delhi, India
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 06-04-2001 01:29 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanx for the info and for me NaHCO3 works the best. I make a saturated solution and shake the AP in it. I have saved batches of upto 200-300 gms for over 4 months without any change in any of the properties @ about 40*C.
------------------
"Go out in a BLAZE OF GLORY"
c0deblue
Frequent Poster
Posts: 229
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 06-04-2001 03:48 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Try this computer for calculating reaction yields (and other useful calculations):
http://www.shef.ac.uk/chemistry/chemputer/reaction-yields.html
Mekap
New Member
Posts: 37
From: Australia
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 06-05-2001 03:42 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pyro ?
Sorry to change the subject, but I noticed you mention AN in the sythesis of Nitric acid. If so, what route do you take to make Nitric acid?
Is there any advantages of this method, over distilling potassium nitrate with sulfuric acid?
[This message has been edited by Mekap (edited June 05, 2001).]
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-05-2001 06:16 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
well, it is simple to make nitric acid with any nitrate, just add oven dryed ammonium nitrate to annahydrus sulfuric acid and distill, you should be able to get near 100% nitric acid provided without a vaccume as long as there is no water in your stuff. I only did this once with an old style retort and a bit of ammonium nitrate taken from school. now I am out and I dont have any nitric acid or ammonium nitrate to work with.
could anyone help me find more, for example a brand you have purchased mabee a picture of the bag or numbers on the bag beacuse I plan a trip to a agricultual supply store and need to know what to look for without looking suspicius
c0deblue
Frequent Poster
Posts: 229
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 06-06-2001 03:14 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ammonium Nitrate
34-0-0 (34% Total Nitrogen)
UN 1942
Shipping Label: "Oxidizer 5.1"
Demolition
Frequent Poster
Posts: 158
From: Australia
Registered: FEB 2001
posted 06-12-2001 07:59 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not sure if this will help much but I got 9 grams of AP from 100mls 6% H2O2,75mls Acetone and 25mls HCl(left in the fridge for 3 days).Next time I'll use 200mls 6% H2O2,150mls Acetone,50mls HCl and see if there is a comparison in the results.
Moderator
Posts: 1465
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-03-2001 02:17 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After reviewing the archives I found an interesting thread started by Ctrl_c, the first message I will post here:
ok, i'm kinda new at this (this is my first year taking real chem) so bear with me.
the 2 rxn's for the tri- and di- cycloacetoneperoxide are
3(C3H6O) + 3(H2O2) => C9H18O6 + 3H2O (tricycloacetone
peroxide)
and
2(C3H6O) + 2(H2O2) => C6H12O4 + 2H2O (dicycloacetone
peroxide)
now to find the molar mass (i'll only do for the tricyclo)
C3H6O..........H2O2..........C9H18O6
-----------....-----------...------------
C: 12.0 (3)....H: 1.0 (2)...C: 12.0 (9)
H: 1.0 (6).....O: 16.0 (2)...H: 1.0 (18)
O: 16.0............................O: 16.0 (6)
-----------....-----------...------------
58 g/mol.......34 g/mol......222 g/mol
H20
-----------
H: 1.0 (2)
O: 16.0 (1)
-----------
18 g/mol
now....
3(58) + 3(34) ==> 1(222) + 3(18)
so the amount needed by mass is
174g C3H6O + 102g H2O2 ==> 222g C9H18O6 + 54g H2O
is this correct aside from the fact that it doesnt account for diluted H2O2?
this information has been useful to me but now I want to know how to calculate the yeild in grams by the liquid (ml) measurement of the ingredients. this involves some math witch I am not good at. I think to figure this problem out we will need the optimum mixture of acetone to h2o2
once found out we will know that a 100% yeild will use all of the ingredients into making AP. this would be useful to see what your yeild was in creating AP by using simple algebra. can anyone help me with any of the above steps for the trimmer and the dimmer? I want to do some AP tests and I need to have a more accurate way of calculating my yeild so I can make just around the right amount of ap without wasting my chems and having excess that may go without use and be needed for disposal.
Thank you anyone that can help me with this
[This message has been edited by PYRO500 (edited June 03, 2001).]
Ezikiel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 66
From: New Delhi, India
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 06-03-2001 04:52 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Pyro500 !!!
I have no specific method of calculation but just a suggestion which is the following : After u filter out the AP do not dispose off the solution, put it back in the freezer. In about a couple of days u'll see more AP in the solution. I have a lot of Acetone on my disposal as I don't buy it ...... I make it. I accidently came across a strain of probably Aspergillus which produces a mixture of Acetone and Butanol when it acts on starchy material. And both of them are easy to seperate out by distillation. But the main thing being leave the solution for a while after u filter the AP out.
------------------
"Go out in a BLAZE OF GLORY"
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-03-2001 06:04 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
yes, but you still wont always get a 100% yeild. I know about filtering it and more forming due to not haveing so much in the solution. Aspergillus? the fungus? how much acetone do you get from a fungus culture? how do you keep the acetone from evaporating without killing the fungus in the cold. I do not curently have distillation equipment in my house although I want to get some when I can get some AN to make nitric acid. how did you isolate the strain of the fungus?
Ezikiel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 66
From: New Delhi, India
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 06-03-2001 11:26 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not too sure that it is Aspergillus as I was trying to isolate Stachybotrys atra from an old cardboard box so I had added it to a bottle full of rice and the supposed S.atra died out instead I got some fungus which was white and had dark green fruiting bodies. But anyways someone is analysing it for me so I don't know yet exactly what fungus it is. The setup I have here is that I have big drums in which I put the starchy materials and these drums are placed in the sun and there r tubes leading out of these drums into smaller drums placed underground under perpetual shade which r not so far from the production drums. And tell me how do u wash ur AP ....
------------------
"Go out in a BLAZE OF GLORY"
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-03-2001 11:43 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
how do I wash it? well after I filter it I spoon it into a new filter witch is usualy a coffie filter but in a hurry I have used a t shirt. and I pour water over the ap and sometimes I add a base like baking soda (i've been experimenting with other chems) and I usually pour the wasted solution (after all AP is formed) over wood ashes into the ground or I will pour it on a bonfire (same place).
I usually get alot of peroxide each time I make it as I have a 30 % stuff. as for the bacteria I think you have
Clostridium acetobytilicium bacteria used in 1915-? to make butyl alcohol and acetone does it have citric acid in it though? I am thinking it is not a fungus but a bacteria. try doing a gram stain on it and seeing if it is gram positive or negative then try penicilin on it if it is pos. I think.
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-03-2001 11:44 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
anyways back to the topic
Ezikiel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 66
From: New Delhi, India
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 06-04-2001 01:29 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanx for the info and for me NaHCO3 works the best. I make a saturated solution and shake the AP in it. I have saved batches of upto 200-300 gms for over 4 months without any change in any of the properties @ about 40*C.
------------------
"Go out in a BLAZE OF GLORY"
c0deblue
Frequent Poster
Posts: 229
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 06-04-2001 03:48 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Try this computer for calculating reaction yields (and other useful calculations):
http://www.shef.ac.uk/chemistry/chemputer/reaction-yields.html
Mekap
New Member
Posts: 37
From: Australia
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 06-05-2001 03:42 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pyro ?
Sorry to change the subject, but I noticed you mention AN in the sythesis of Nitric acid. If so, what route do you take to make Nitric acid?
Is there any advantages of this method, over distilling potassium nitrate with sulfuric acid?
[This message has been edited by Mekap (edited June 05, 2001).]
PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-05-2001 06:16 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
well, it is simple to make nitric acid with any nitrate, just add oven dryed ammonium nitrate to annahydrus sulfuric acid and distill, you should be able to get near 100% nitric acid provided without a vaccume as long as there is no water in your stuff. I only did this once with an old style retort and a bit of ammonium nitrate taken from school. now I am out and I dont have any nitric acid or ammonium nitrate to work with.
could anyone help me find more, for example a brand you have purchased mabee a picture of the bag or numbers on the bag beacuse I plan a trip to a agricultual supply store and need to know what to look for without looking suspicius
c0deblue
Frequent Poster
Posts: 229
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 06-06-2001 03:14 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ammonium Nitrate
34-0-0 (34% Total Nitrogen)
UN 1942
Shipping Label: "Oxidizer 5.1"
Demolition
Frequent Poster
Posts: 158
From: Australia
Registered: FEB 2001
posted 06-12-2001 07:59 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not sure if this will help much but I got 9 grams of AP from 100mls 6% H2O2,75mls Acetone and 25mls HCl(left in the fridge for 3 days).Next time I'll use 200mls 6% H2O2,150mls Acetone,50mls HCl and see if there is a comparison in the results.