Does this work? (flechettes) - Archive File

[megalomania]

Mad Dog
New Member
Posts: 32
From:
Registered: APR 2001
posted 06-08-2001 02:45 AM
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I was told by a relative that Russian mafia uses an unusual shotgun load it contains of nail heads with a bit of the stem still attached to form a T-shaped shot which because of its unusual shape cosies more tissue damage. My question is has anyone herd/seen how good or not so good this load is?
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If you kill someone and it makes the world a better place, is it so wrong?



PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-08-2001 04:20 AM
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you might mean fletchetes (sp)


Mad Dog
New Member
Posts: 32
From:
Registered: APR 2001
posted 06-08-2001 09:58 AM
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No, a shorter stem (0.5-1mm) and they spin end over end as they pass through flash. That is what cosies the damage.

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If you kill someone and it makes the world a better place, is it so wrong?



Foodos
Frequent Poster
Posts: 210
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-08-2001 01:14 PM
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is your question will it work? Yes, if its not heavier then the basic load of what the primary charge was meant to shoot out, those wouldn't have a whole lot of range though, since they aren't aerodynamic they will loose their energy quickly by 'soaking up' all the wind resistance. Accuracyies probably a bitch as well. Nothing wrong with OO buckshot.


Viper4403
New Member
Posts: 27
From: Florida, USA
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 06-08-2001 02:13 PM
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I've heard of this too.
It's an old mafia method, and it's not restricted to russian mafia. I've heard a similar story about bits of shot welded to a short string of piano wire for a kind of bolas type of thing.

Yes, the method you describe is quite effective.



PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-08-2001 04:16 PM
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I'd only try thest loads with a cheap clean smooth bore shotgun, not some expensive pump that has features to enhance the pattern of the shot.


Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 06-09-2001 04:35 PM
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Aren't flachettes (I think that's the sp, but I'm not sure) like little darts? I always thought they were dropped by planes onto groups of soldiers, but I'm no expert.


Mad Dog
New Member
Posts: 32
From:
Registered: APR 2001
posted 06-10-2001 01:06 AM
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Well flachettes are little darts but thay are fired from a shotgun.
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If you kill someone and it makes the world a better place, is it so wrong?



Heavy Recoil
Frequent Poster
Posts: 55
From: nope, try again
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 06-10-2001 11:47 AM
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They can be both, the ones that were dropped from planes in world war I were alot longer 10 to 20 cm. while those used in shotguns are an inch to almost 3 inchs (at a recent gunshow I saw a ammomaker who had them packed in a 3 1/2 magnum 12 gauge) there are flechet canisters used in vetnam, but I dont have any info on them.
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Know the enemy, know yourself;your victory will never be endangered. SUN TZU



Foodos
Frequent Poster
Posts: 210
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-10-2001 07:51 PM
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flachettes are shrapanel in general, used in Vietnam is LAW rocket launchers, rpgs, missiles (I think sometimes).
That bola-esque cartridge is commercially made, http://www.firequest.com/

[USUAL SUSPECT]

"Flechettes are shrapnel in general, used in Vietnam in LAW rocket launchers, missiles"

Well flechettes were not ever used in a LAWS rocket LAW is an acronym for Light Anti-tank Weapon and with the velocity achieved by a LAW rocket shooting a tank with steel darts would be senseless. (before I get flamed I will state that I am aware of the current use of single depleted uranium sabots to defeat armor plate) also my father witnessed the use of "beehive" rounds in Vietnam on human wave attacks he stated that the day after an attack you could find VC stapled to trees by the 105s' being fired into the mass attacks. Also his Sgt carried an Remington 870 loaded with flechettes and 00 buck and he stated that it blew chunks out wherever it hit. (his being a medic he treated some survivors).

Now a question, after USTSE I found only 2 threads with the word flechete in them, specifically I was hoping to find a thread about the use of flechettes on kevlar vests, and options on loading flechettes in a 12ga round.

You will find interesting info on loading and supplies for same here:
http://www.hi-vel.com/Catalog__20/Specialized_Shotshell_Ammuniti/specialized_shotshell_ammuniti.html

Well I am finished with this reply and hope I don't fall in the "banned for life" category. Also I welcome all questions about firearms and ballistics as they are indeed my passion. FYI I have watched this forum as an unregistered guest since 2003 good info good job.

[nbk2000]

Using the proper word for a search is vital to success. Notice the correct spelling in your post above.

A much more reliable supplier of flechette ammunition than Hi-Vel (the TOTSE of ammo sellers :p):
http://www.antipersonnel.net/sdllc/005.html

And some flechette-related humor to amuse you during your ban:
http://home.online.no/~dagoj/flechette.gif

[Rbick]

While this thread was dug up by a newbie who is now banned because of it, it is still interesting non-the-less. It also sparked a memory of mine.

In the military I worked closely with our Anti-Tank team who was armed with the 84mm M3 Carl Gustav Recoilless Rifle. While it has been deemed inhumane to use flechette rounds against personel, we figured terrorists who kill their own people don't qualify as humans :D. In a class, we actually were given an inert flechette round with the projectiles still in it. We were able to look at them, and they were about 3 inches long with 3 pairs of prongs near the back of the projectile. I'm unsure of the count in one round.

Used in combat, specifically in urban settings, this round ripped people apart. It was really brutal. Fired down a narrow ally, the shot pattern spread out enough to leave no room to hide. "Effective" range was only a couple hundred meters. The rounds were called ADM, Area Defense Munitions. Normally, I think these rounds are not considered acceptable by modern military standards.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

What I saw were what looked like finishing nails with little fins pressed out of one end; the point looked just like interior finish carpentry nails. They actually could have been made with the same machinery the similarity was so close. Black phosphate coated, sharp with four angles to the point, four fins to the tail.

Loading them in a shotgun plastic wad would be a simple thing to do. Use of "Sporting Clays" (12ga) loading would be appropriate as they would weigh at less than an ounce. Being steel and packed into the wad cover they would not seem to contact the bore. Spread would not be uniform obviously - However they may actually fly straight for about 30M if the propellant was at a low level (super light) & wax utilized to both maintain projectile integrity and seal the shell. There would seem to be no need to over power them whatsoever as the construction would provide a unique ballistic element.

[TreverSlyFox]

In Viet Nam an Anti-Tank vehicle, the M50A1 "Ontos" was put to great effect. The Ontos was a wedge shaped, tracked vehicle with a turrent that could turn 40 degrees side to side. It's effectiveness came from 3- 106mm recoilless rifles mounted on each side of the turrent.

Though designed in the 1950's as an anti-tank vehicle it became a top VC killer in Viet Nam with the introduction of a 106mm "Beehive" round loaded with flechettes. It was nothing for the Ontos to fire all 6 recoilless rifles at the same time and clear jungle out knee high for a 1/4 mile deep and then scoot back to a secure position to reload. It became the Marines armored shotgun and earned the nickname "the pig".

The NVA and VC hated to encounter an Ontos because it was so deadly at perimeter defense and convoy escort duty. At only 9 tons on 20" tracks it could take to the soft soils surrounding the rice paddies. Only 176 were deployed with the Marines in Viet Nam and they were decommissioned in 1970.

[Charles Owlen Picket]

Someone knows their history or they are older than most! The Ontos was a remarkable concept & to the best of my knowledge you are absolutely correct!

It's a painful fact that we really could have won that conflict. When all is said and done the money and material we expended in that theater was incredible. But even a great boxer would lose if they went into the ring with handcuffs on.

Much was made of the use of the flechette & the shotgun and it's legality in war. However, the same (utilitarian value) could be said for our use of the Ithica Duckbill; as it was reputed to be one of the best close encounter small arms in jungle weapons.

One thing that is often missed is that from a ballistic perspective, the design of the flechette & is it's conformity to choke design (or lack there of) is amazing. Stabilization was generally acceptable if the propellant was balanced to the weight of the projectile. The greater the diameter of the bore the (amongst other factors) the more successful the flight of a well made flechette projectile.

[TreverSlyFox]

Hehehehe, a little bit of both Charles.

I'm a bit of a Military History buff and I was there in 1967 and got to see the Ontos in action. Turned 59 this last May so ya I'm a bit older than most here.

[reamio]

However, the same (utilitarian value) could be said for our use of the Ithica Duckbill; as it was reputed to be one of the best close encounter small arms in jungle weapons.



Charles: I think you meant Ithaca as in:
Ithaca Guns, USA LLC is a manufacturer of high-quality shotguns and rifles, founded in Ithaca, New York in 1880.

Are these wonderful accessories (duckbills) available to the public?

I have a Browning 12 gauge 5-shot semi-auto shotgun that would be very happy to accept a spreader type enhancement.:D

[Charles Owlen Picket]

Well, frankly I was unaware that it was introduced on anything else than the Ithaca trench shotgun (let me know if it was; I am curious about that "odd duck").

The "spreader concept" as in the duck bill was deemed to be a very effective addition. I have seen only on the the flesh (or in the steel). When I first examined it I thought it would burst the barrel (it was not THAT radical, mind you but it looked pretty wild).
There were rumors that such a device would be available on a variety of shotguns but I have yet to see one on anything but that example.

Please note that in '67 I was playing with Super Balls, Etch-a-Sketch, slot cars, and staring at the thighs of the girls in Social Studies......

[festergrump]

Back to flechettes, I often browse Army/Navy surplus sites looking for good deals and came across this just this morning:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f348/festergrump/flachette2.jpg

For $2 per 50 count or $25 for 1 lb. bag (about 1000 each), you can't go wrong for experimental purposes. Beats making your own individually, anyway. Never seen them offered anywhere before, but here they are: http://www.imsplus.com/ims35.html

Guaranteed to break the ice at "no knock" parties... Have fun. ;)

There rest of the page seems pretty well dedicated to us Forumites, too! :D

[Jacks Complete]

Remember kids, steel darts are not compressible in the bore of a shotgun, and using a duckbill choke with them would likely be the last thing that gun was ever used for!!

If you do go for loading your own, make sure you either have a well-overbored shotgun, so that the compression from the forcing cone to the barrel proper is almost none, or you leave a little slack in there for the darts to be able to fit all at once thorough that tighter hole. Likewise, think about your choke pattern - if it narrows the barrel further, then trouble is ahead.

The safest way is to take 80% of the darts that will fit in the shot cup of the plastic wad, and pop them in with a small amount of small shot (8+) around them to hold them tight. I've had no problems with homemade rounds done like this, with a regular modern barrel and open chokes. I also find the same to work for throwing slugs made at home.

Note that I haven't actually done this, since it would be illegal in the UK, as the largest legal dimension of a projectile in a shotgun cartridge is .36", and there must be at least 6 shot in a round. I have only dreamed of making a mould from a ceramic then melting lead directly into it. Likewise, I have only dreamed of using steel plastic coated wire coathanger cut to length as described above. Note this was an open ended case, since about 1" long seemed to be about right.

[45acp]

Finally, a post I can contribute to without sounding like a complete newbie idiot!

I own a registered 40mm and load a lot of my own ammo. I have loaded dozens of rounds using the exact flechettes posted above. (I picked up 40 lbs of them in a deal awhile back).

I've tried several differnt types of buffer or filler in the shotcups, actually powdered soap or oatmeal seem to work the best for me. (Better than lead or steel shot, anyway). The flechettes are fairly light so they lose their velocity relatively quickly compared to buckshot.

They pattern OK but the limit to effective anti-personnel range is closer to 25 meters. I've shot them at different levels of kevlar body armor and they reliably penetrate a IIA vest at 20 meters.

The only problem is in their design. by design, flechettes are thin darts. they actually do VERY little damage to tissue. Imagine a high speed needle punching through a piece of meat. If the velocity is increased dramatically, they may bend and cause more tissue damage, but in my experience in 40mm loadings that the recoil becomes prohibitive when you reach those velocities.

I'm hoping not to get banned for my first post, I've learned alot and been reading on this site for along time. Just trying to add my small bit of knowledge to the forum.

If anyone has any 37/40mm questions, I'll do my best to answer them.

+++++++++=

One thing you can do in the future is add paragraph breaks to make your posts more readable, as I did for this one. NBK

[Charles Owlen Picket]

The safest way is to take 80% of the darts that will fit in the shot cup of the plastic wad, and pop them in with a small amount of small shot (8+) around them to hold them tight. I've had no problems with homemade rounds done like this, with a regular modern barrel and open chokes. I also find the same to work for throwing slugs made at home.


Tried this exact thing and worked like a charm. The type and method of buffering makes a difference. One technique was to use standard buffer and drop to 80%....seems fine.

Tried an experiment and used wrapped tissue; was very time consuming as it's not "roll the damn things up and stuff them in the shell" type buffering but to weave the tissue around & through - they appeared to fly much flatter for longer range (20M).

Noted that when "sporting clays" level of powder/associated load were used rather than field or greater strength...better flight. Paper-card wadding was used to create more room at the top for the crimp; rather than plastic cup....even better terminal performance. Why? I have no idea as it would appear that the plastic wadding (AA) would have a more consistent "push".......(?)

[ann]

I like the scimitar design myself....The Scimitar worked on the same principle as the flechette, but instead of being a tiny arrow, it was wide and flat (looked kind of like a disposable razor blade with fins) The standard 20ga shell would hold 16 of these.

Pics are on my other machine,if need be they can be dug up.

My tests with a single scimitar dart loaded in .45acp show they were very effective on aramid,but thats a no brainer.

[nbk2000]

Behold the wonders of Google!

http://weapons.travellercentral.com/tech/scmitr.gif

Other nifty rounds can be found here:
http://weapons.travellercentral.com/tech/shotgun.html

[ann]

http://weapons.travellercentral.com/tech/scmitr.gif


That is a AAI loading it shows the scmitr dart design well.

They were the shit for close range work but had all the same long range problems of the standard design flechettes.

They really worked on tissue and bone was no barrier. I know a rat that iced a few people with them in the early 1970s.

The 45acp version were a cool design but the cost was to high and the tunnel rats were just issued standard ball.