Need help identifying acid. - Archive File

[megalomania]

Hvoroba
New Member
Posts: 27
From: Israel
Registered: APR 2001
posted 06-03-2001 06:52 AM
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I found a product in the supermarket recently, used for plumbing purposes. Most of the products I have seen for this purpose use HCl or NaOH, but the label of this one said :"Sulfur based acid".
I don't know any other sulfur based acids besides Sulfuric and Sulfurous acid. I was wondering, which of the two can be possibly used for a purpose like this? How can I identify which acid is the one I have (I'm not a chemist)?

One more thing : I found another product for cleaning [that thing you boil water in. sorry ] The label said : "CONTAINS 15% SULFAMIC ACID". What can this be?

Also, I found an another source for H202. It is available at supermarkets as a clothing stain-removing agent, which doesn't contain bleach. The concentration is about 15%. However, the impurities might be a problem, I have't experimented with that yet though (short of cash).

Thanks!



Cricket
Frequent Poster
Posts: 160
From: USA
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 06-04-2001 06:29 PM
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I think the acid you found is Sulfuric Acid. I think I way to see if it is would be to mix it with some H2O2 and maybe some acetone . This might work with other Sulfur based acids too, but at least you'll have some AP. And good luck on your new source of H2O2 also (now you just need acetone and you'll be good). I think it will work.


Hvoroba
New Member
Posts: 27
From: Israel
Registered: APR 2001
posted 06-05-2001 07:12 AM
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Thank you, but...I should have stated that... I don't need the H2SO4 for AP production. I already have plenty of 30% HCl here, for very cheap. Acetone isn't a problem also. What I want to do is to remove any impurities from the H2SO4 (would distilling help?), and make some HNO3, so I'll be able to make some of the good 'ole nitro
So basically, I just need to check if the acid is H2SO4 or H2SO3, if it's the first, I want to concentrate it (will boiling help? What container?), remove the impurities, and make some HNO3 with it. Then, the same with the HNO3, and viola, i'll go nitrating everything that lies around. So if you'll have the patience required to help a dumbass such as myself, your help would be very much appreciated, especially about those concentrating and distilling points.
Sorry for all the dumb and unproffesional questions.



Cricket
Frequent Poster
Posts: 160
From: USA
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 06-05-2001 06:49 PM
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Don't feel bad about asking questions, that's what The Forum is for. I haven't done any of this, but here we go. You can concentrate H2SO4 by boiling it. Just bring it to a boil (don't WAY over heat it, just boil it). You should do this in a good, quality, glass pan, bowl, or cup. I would use something made for use on stoves, so it won't break (had some very bad experiences with this). Also, do it outside or in a barn or something (if your inside, use a acid mask). Only think is that I think you can only get it to about 95% pure (not anhydrous). Soooo, it wont dry your nitric and wont make any nitroglycerine (although you can make many other very powerful secondary explosives without 100% nitric or sulfuric acid, thank god). If you get your sulfuric acid from a battery, you should filter it. I think a coffee filter will work. Do you know how to make your nitric once you get your sulfuric? And if you need to know about distilling or anything, you can probably find it on The Forum or Mega's site. I don't know about that stuff, sorry . Good luck.


mark
Frequent Poster
Posts: 195
From:
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 06-05-2001 07:10 PM
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What kind of acid can be found in an ace hardware of safeway? I need acid to make Ap, and I need to know where to look.
What was the name of the cleaning product you found acid in?



Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-05-2001 08:17 PM
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I believe you can get H2SO4 to 98% by boiling. If you know the starting conc. of your acid it's worth marking the level to start with and boiling down to a level where all water in the acid would have gone.
The resulting acid does work in nitrations (e.g. NG).

BTW, you won't find shit in Safeways!



shooter3
New Member
Posts: 37
From: USA
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 06-05-2001 09:56 PM
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Ace is the place. "RAM OUT" drain cleaner is Sulfuric Acid.


ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 06-06-2001 12:08 AM
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You can do almost all simple nitrations (NG, NC , EGDN, PA, ETC) Without nitric acid. Theres not too much point ion attempting do distill nitric acid without vacuum and proper distilation jointed glassware unless you dont need too high of concentration.
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technology is a wonderful servant, but a bitch of a master.

Explosives Archive



Hvoroba
New Member
Posts: 27
From: Israel
Registered: APR 2001
posted 06-06-2001 08:07 AM
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Thanks!
The brand is named "DRAIN OUT" (how original). However, I doubt you will find this brand at your stores in civilised Europe, since I live in this hell-hole Israel, and I think the acid is a local brand.

So if the acid isn't anhydrous, does that mean I can't make any HNO3 with it? Or can I?

ALENGOSVIG1, but I thought you must have nitric acid for all nitrations, or have I missed something?





Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-06-2001 04:21 PM
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HNO3 can be made in the reaction by mixing H2SO4 and a metal nitrate (e.g. KNO3). So to make NG you just mix KNO3 with H2SO4, then add your glycerine to this mix.


mark
Frequent Poster
Posts: 195
From:
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 06-06-2001 06:51 PM
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Thanks shooter! What concentration is it?


shooter3
New Member
Posts: 37
From: USA
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 06-06-2001 07:43 PM
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Mark. I'm not sure. A one quart bottle is pretty heavy though. It boils down very quickly. Check the Sp. Gravity with a battery checker. Good luck.


mark
Frequent Poster
Posts: 195
From:
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 06-07-2001 07:12 PM
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Have you used it to make AP?


PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-07-2001 07:43 PM
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that wont tell him much except it is an acid the acid dosent make ap it is just a catalyst that dosent chamge throughout the reaction


mark
Frequent Poster
Posts: 195
From:
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 06-07-2001 11:28 PM
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I was wondering because if there is impurities in the acid, wont that fuck with the ap?


PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-08-2001 01:16 AM
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it might make the ap more sensitive but ap will still be produced!


Mr Cool
Frequent Poster
Posts: 991
From: None of your bloody business!
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 06-09-2001 05:46 PM
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The drain cleaner acid is sulphuric, normally about 90% concentration. Heating to 300*C or so will get it to above 98% (H2SO4 boils at 327*C IIRC). Do this with excellent ventilation, or you'll be coughing like hell.
And check that the container you're pouring the acid into is 100% dry. I left a drop of water last time, and got boiling, concentrated acid on my thumb. VERY FUCKING STUPID OF ME! Hurts like shit, believe me. Luckily it was only a splash, and the rest of me was well protected, with 3 layers of clothing and a full face shield. I never wear gloves though, since it increases the risk of an accident. Lucky I had my bucket of cold NaHCO3 solution next to me That's a very good precaution, just in case. I got my thumb in there in less than a second, and then ran cold water over it for 20 mins and it still burnt me nastily. Mainly a heat burn though, the H2SO4 didn't have time to get through the first layer of dead skin.
Sulphamic acid is HSO4NH2, used in one method for making RDX IIRC. If I still have it I'll post it here.
If you're H2SO4 is 100%, and your KNO3 is 100%, then the HNO3 you get will be 100%, even without a vaccuum source. It'll be the fuming red/brown kind. You do need a good condenser to keep efficiency up and save you from dying of NO2 poisoning, and rubber stoppers will dissolve into a crumbly mush. Use quick-fit glass equipment.


mark
Frequent Poster
Posts: 195
From:
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 06-10-2001 04:16 PM
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Container must be cmpetley dry? To make ap, arent you mixing the acid with two other liquids?
Does ace sell hydrocloric acid? Any other Acids less scary than sulfuric?

[This message has been edited by mark (edited June 10, 2001).]



blackadder
Frequent Poster
Posts: 313
From: London
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 06-10-2001 06:27 PM
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He's not talking about making AP!!!
He's referring to when you purify H2SO4 and pour it into another container.

[yt2095]

if i were uncertain as what the acid was, i think i`de try and make copper sulphate from it and examine the crystals shape, color, soluability

thought i`m absolutely certain there are mush better ways to find out with simple equipment.

it`s only my 10cents worth :)

it would be worth trying to concentrate it though, then dilute it with a known quantity of distiled water then do a hydrometer test and a PH test.
thats about the best i can come up with off the top of my head.
if you know someone that works with forklift trucks, ask where they buy their acid from, then go there with a 2 litre plastic pop bottle and ask for some. tell then that you`re working on a Solar pannel arangement and have kept batteries stored with just water in them, and now you need to re-activate them (that`s how i get mine)

Good luck :)

[vulture]

pH test is useless for identifying a strong acid, as all strong acids will produce the same pH at a give concentration because of the nivellation effect. This means that in water all strong acids fully dissociate and thus have effectively the same strength.

If you want to compare them you'll need an acidic medium like CH3COOH and then you can check which acid will most effectively protonate CH3COOH to CH3COOH2 +.
However, you cannot measure pH in other mediums than water....

Sulfamic acid is often use to remove CaCO3 from water boilers, coffeemachines, etc.
I thought it was quite a weak acid but since it can apparently be used to make RDX? Have you got anymore info on this Mr. Cool?

Barium, strontium and calciumsalts will all produce insoluble sulfates with sulfuric acid (and ofcourse with any other solution that contains sulfate ions).

[knowledgehungry]

Copper will not react with Sulfuric acid to give Copper sulfate (unfortunately). So as Vulture said you would have to react it with the the Group II elements if you wanted to try and make a sulfate to test the acid.

[vulture]

Copper will react with concentrated sulfuric acid when slightly heated, after that the reaction becomes selfsustaining and is quite vigorous. It's true that H+ won't attack metals like copper, unless you are dealing with an oxidizing acid like H2SO4 which is reduced to SO2 by copper. Careful smelling will reveal this.

[knowledgehungry]

Thank you Vulture, I didnt know that and I've been wanting some copper sulfate. PH test is useless for distinguishing a strong acid from a different strong acid, but it might be helpful in determining whether an acid IS a strong acid. IIRC H2SO4 is the only strong sulfur based acid, so if a PH test reveals that it is a strong acid than you have your acid. Isn't the PH of H2SO4 lower than that of a monoprotic strong acid? When H2SO4 is dissasociated it gives two H+ ions thus doubling the concentration of H+ is that right?

[vulture]

Not really.

The second dissociation of sulfuric acid has a pKa of 1,94 IIRC. This means that HSO4- is a moderatly strong acid. Because the first dissociation step is complete, this will hamper the second dissociation in compliance with Le Chateliers principle.

Thus, the second dissociation will only be substantial in a fairly diluted solution.
The second dissociation becomes noticeable above a pH of 2,4.

This also explains why conc. H2SO4 will form HSO4- salts when reacted with other salts like KNO3.

Furthermore, pure sulfuric acid (>98%) autoprotonates itself:

2H2SO4 -----> H3SO4+ + HSO4-

EDIT: Actually, adding relatively pure copper to a supposedly H2SO4 solution might be a good way to identify H2SO4. You will smell SO2 gas and the solution will turn deep blue.
Ofcourse it's also a good way to identify copper metal...