Quick and easy explosive packets...

[EventHorizon]

First of all...WOW!! It's been a long while since I've been here and I've got to say the Forum is looking VERY nice.

I had a brain fart and just had to post it. While playing with my new kitchen toy....erm...appliance ;) I had an idea. It's a vacuum sealer and while playing with it I got the idea that you could mix a batch of ANNM and vacuum seal it in the plastic bag. Since all air is removed there should be no problem with long term storage of the pre-made packets. If one so desired, one could make several packets up, afix some heavy duty cloth carpet type double sided tape to them and make up some similar BC's with the double sided tape afixed as well. When one wished to deploy the packets all one would have to do would be to peel off the tape, slap it to whatever needed demolition, peel a BC and stick it to the packet and run like the wind.

This vacuum sealer could also be used to preserve other deliquesant(sp) chemicals. If a person desired (or lived in a high humidity climate), they could prepare fair size quanities of say ammonium nitrate by soaking in alcohol, then delicately cooking off any remaining alcohol/water, then grind to a powder, place in a bag and vacuum seal it. When you wanted to use it, just cut a small corner, insert a small funnel and dump in the nitromethane, work it around and instant BOOM. The one I have has a small "accessory port" which allows the use of a "mason jar" sealer. My guess is that suitable jars could be found in which you could vacuum seal jars or jugs of deliquesant type chemicals. The more I think about it the more ideas I keep coming up with.

I did a quick search and didn't find anything that struck me as a similar topic so I hope I've sparked a few neurons and people come up with more ideas. My particular vacuum sealer runs about $250 but cheaper models for less frequent use run as little as $150.

[Mr-Eckted]

Seems like it would be extremely usefull if you needed to take a device anywhere. No hassle, no mess, less evidence. I don't see any flaws in the idea. Would someone like to try it and expirement in different conditions (read: Do it under water! Please!). It seems like it would make it very easy to transport and set up explosives.

[yt2095]

Ewwww!

sound like tons of fun :)

i wonder wether or it would work well for storing TATP? or would it even be possible to insert an electrical blasting cap and seal the bag with the 2 wires leading out?
would be ideal for underwater work or fishing trips, or just wet or muddy days.
possibly even use different shaped bags to make similar to shaped charges, long narrow bags filled with APAN that may be ideal for fitting along a crack in a tree, no need to ever really plastisize your materials now.
you`ve got me wanting one now :)

[Al Nobel]

"i wonder wether or it would work well for storing TATP?"

It´s not a good idea to store AP under permanent pressure in an enclosed container.Apart of that I dont think that the vacuum will stop the sublimation-recristalisation process.Just store your AP under water.

The idea with the vacuum sealer seems to be very interesting for secoundary explosives,but it´s a bit expensive.

[yt2095]

Al Nobel,

on thinking about it, re: TATP i would sumise that the vacume may even speed this process up, as vacume distilation will create sublimation also and so the baggie may do similar over time, i see your point, thnx :)

just out of purely scientific curiosity though, i wonder what the largest single crystal of TATP that can exist could be? i really hope i`m not putting ideas into some kewls head. but it would certainly be interesting to find out (i lack the resources and land mass yes dare i admit it, the intestinal fortitude to find out, but i`de sure like to see that sucker pop! :)
tho i`ve no doubt that NBK would probably eat it for breakfast instead of salt on his boiled something or other :)

[EventHorizon]

:eek:

Vacuum packing TATP would be very risky. Over the weekend I'll try to get some pictures of little a bag of flour vacuum packed to see the before and after effects of ~24" vacuum (what this machine will do). It packs things rather tightly.

As far as expensive, only if you purchase the vacuum sealer solely for E&W research. I got it to pack/seal meats, coffee, etc. and found yet another use for it. :D

If you wished to make some "emergency stashes", you could also fill a plastic bottle with AN and another bottle with NM, then seal them together in a bag.

[vulture]

I suppose that if it's vacuum sealed the plastic is wrapped around your ingredient very tightly.
Sublimation should only be a problem if you have a vacuum with room to expand in. Now there is still somekind of pressure on the system walls by the solid.

It's hard to explain what I'm getting at but I hope you get the point.

[yt2095]

i understand, a bit like the glo-sticks, crack the vial and shake

surely you could put the NM in a sealed test tube score a line around the middle of the tube with a sharpening stone and keep the AN as just a powder, less glass, a 1 step action and no need to break the 2 bottles with rock or anything, . just snap the tube shake and boom (only an idea)

yeah i realised after Al Nobel said about the TATP that it would just make it more unstable given time, how about the det cap with wires out the bag idea, does it seem workable at all?

[Anthony]

This might be useful to obtain high density secondary charges, to achieve the highest VoD practical. I doubt it would be suitable for anything AN based though.

[nbk2000]

You wouldn't want to put the glass tube directly into the bag, since the glass would likely cut the bag when you activated it.

Rather, place the tube inside an aluminium cigar tube, to prevent glass shards from cutting the bag when crushed. Holes would have to be drilled into the tube, of course, so the NM could mix with the AN.

Adding a dye to the NM would let you know when the product is ready to use.

It might be possible to insert a length of rigid plastic tubing into the package through the tube used for connecting the vacuum. This would allow you to insert a detonator into the center of the package without having to cut it.

With the vaccum having removed all the air, plus the compression, I'd imagine the AN powder would be at about maximum density. This is good if it's ANNM, not so good if it's ANFO. As long as the vacuum within the bag isn't so high as to boil the NM, then the liquid would migrate through the AN just fine.

With finely powered AP, assuming the compression didn't detonate the package, then it too would benefit from the compression. Also, being sealed in vacuum, the AP wouldn't volatilize away, because it would form a saturated atmosphere.

If you've got the bags you don't need the fancy machine. A hand pumped vaccum, like that used for bleeding brakes, would work perfectly fine and costs less than $40. :)

[Thomas[NL]]

It sounds like a nice way of storing BP and other fuel/oxidizer mixes because they need to keep dry, right?
So I was wondering, how large can the bags be? (assuming you use some kind of bags.) are they resealable?
what kind of sucktion-power (how do you spell that???) are we talking about? because I have my doubts where it comes to storing pressure sensitive substances this way :p

Also, could there be any alternative use for this thing? Like making a new or better kind of detonator somehow.

And would it be possible to create ready to use explosive packs this way? With their detonators already in them so that they would only need lighting. They could be stored indefinately this way.

Thomas.

[yt2095]

Sukshun :)

(just kidding) "Suction" i think

not having seen said device, i was curious if perhaps an adaptor could be made for vacume distilation also?
i should imagine it has quite a bit of power behind it, but would it stand up to long term use, as in constantly ON?

[Thomas[NL]]

Suppose so, as long as you keep the engine (moter, motor or engine one of the three, not sure) from burning out. You dont suppose this thing might be a bit too strong for your purpose?
Most vacuum distillation collums ive seen used water suction pumps. And this sounds like a hell of a lot more power...

[kalashnikov]

Don't know if this would also work for storing AP :confused: , but how about a container filled with CO2? Shouldn't be too difficult to modify a CO2 cylinder to be able to fill something like a small plastic bottle. The CO2 should prevent combustion right?

The only problems I foresee is evacuating the air that is already in the container and sealing the container again without allowing the pressurised CO2 to escape. CO2 is heavier than air so it will stay in but slight pressure would be good. Some kind of one way valve would be good.

Let me know if you think of anything else.

[Dunkelmann]

As the Bag usually is seald by heat, at least with the vacuum sealers i know,
be careful when sealing in sensitive material, it might be ignited if there are traces
at the sealing spot.
If the material that is sealed in does not destroy the bag, it is surely a good way to store your
stuff.

[0EZ0]

CO2 will not inhibit explosive decomposition of any explosive or fuel/oxidiser mix that either contains oxygen in it's molecular structure or that has a chemical oxidiser present. Explosives don't need atmospheric oxygen to detonate!

Does heat sealing a very sensitive organic peroxide in a vacuum pack sound like a wise thing to do?! Quite obviously the answer should be no.

Primary explosives would NOT suitable for storing in vacuum packets. Only the main charge of secondary explosive could be vaccum sealed, ready for use. You should also never seal your dets in with the main charge. If that det goes off while stored with the main charge, what do you think will happen:rolleyes:? If there is no det stored with the main charge, then what is the probability of it detonating on it's own?

Vacuum packing separate pyrotechnic components would be good if you were trying to prevent contact with moisture or oxidation/decomposition. Think of metallic fuels or or similiar. Maybe if you had an excess of milled BP you could store it away safely for a rainy day. There are many possibilities.

[kalashnikov]

You present some valid points. If the explosive were to spontaneously decompose, the CO2 would not stop it. (smack my head for not thinking)

I think the point here is: there is no real safe way to store explosives for long periods of time. Make them, then use them.

[rp3o8]

I found a cheap vacuum hand pump here (http://www.pump-n-seal.com/) for $15 that claims to work with ordinary zipper-locking bags.

If I can find one locally I might try it out with AN/MNN/Al or a similar cap-sensitive AN mix.

[charger]

What if you used a plastic bag instead of a test tube to hold the NM of an ANNM mixture? There wouldn't be any thing sharp to puncture the bag and it is easily popped. Something along the lines of an instant cold pack.

[Archangel76]

instead of a vaccum sealer wouldnt it be a lot cheaper to use the sealers they sell in stores like walgreens used to seal up bags of cheaps? just a thought